Gregg Renfrew Returns! The Founder of Beautycounter and Counter Is Back

Interactive Transcript

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spk_0 Hi everyone.

spk_0 I'm Hillary Kerr, the co-founder and chief content officer of Who Upwear.

spk_0 And this is Second Life, a podcast spotlighting women who have truly inspiring careers.

spk_0 We're talking about their work journeys, what they've learned from the process of setting

spk_0 aside their doubts or fears and what happens when they embark on their second life.

spk_0 Today on the show, I'm speaking with Greg Renfrew, a friend of the pod and the founder of Beauty

spk_0 Counter, which is now called Counter.

spk_0 More on that later.

spk_0 We all know Beauty Counter as the original makeup brand that pioneered what we know today

spk_0 as the clean beauty movement.

spk_0 Greg founded Beauty Counter in 2013 and the brand Skyrocketed to success, garnering respect

spk_0 for its commitment to using safe ingredients and saying no to any questionable or harmful

spk_0 chemicals.

spk_0 Greg also very famously became the first beauty CEO to testify before Congress about cosmetic

spk_0 reform.

spk_0 Demanding that lawmakers pass legislation to regulate personal care products.

spk_0 Greg eventually sold Beauty Counter at a $1 billion valuation to a private equity firm.

spk_0 We had Greg on the show back in 2019 to talk about her life before Beauty Counter, selling

spk_0 Xerox copiers as a sales rep, and starting the bridal e-commerce platform, the wedding

spk_0 list.

spk_0 But, since selling Beauty Counter, Greg's path has had a lot of twists and turns, including

spk_0 being asked to step down as CEO of her own company, then leaving the company, and then

spk_0 coming back as CEO before the business went into foreclosure.

spk_0 But now, Greg is bringing the brand back under a new name counter.

spk_0 Obviously, a lot has happened since Greg and I last spoke and I wanted to catch up with

spk_0 her and find out about what she hopes to do differently with Counter.

spk_0 Greg's journey is so wild and worthy of its own movie, I cannot wait for you to hear

spk_0 this episode.

spk_0 Now, on Second Life, it's Greg Renfrew.

spk_0 All right, Greg, are you ready to do this again?

spk_0 I'm ready to do it again.

spk_0 I'm very excited that you are back on the show.

spk_0 You know, I've wanted to do this for quite some time, so I'm just very thrilled that

spk_0 we're finally doing this.

spk_0 So thank you.

spk_0 Well, it's nice to be here.

spk_0 It's always great to see you too.

spk_0 Okay, so the last time we formally chatted for the show was in June of 2019.

spk_0 We talked about your entire career journey from your early sales job, selling Xerox copiers

spk_0 to starting the wedding list, which is an online wedding registry concept that you sold

spk_0 to Martha Stewart.

spk_0 Everyone, you should go back and listen to that previous episode.

spk_0 It's wonderful.

spk_0 We also got into your time at Best in Company, which ended in a rather unsurmonious firing

spk_0 fun times.

spk_0 And then, of course, talked about founding Beauty Counter in 2011.

spk_0 So much has changed, though, in the last six years, but for the folks who have not heard

spk_0 the first episode, we're going to do a little bit of the beginning of Beauty Counter and

spk_0 then move into what's going on now.

spk_0 So give me sort of the TLDR on what the beauty landscape looked like when you first started

spk_0 ideating Beauty Counter and why you started the brand in the first place.

spk_0 I mean, it's crazy to think about it now because the beauty industry and the landscape

spk_0 of Beauty was entirely, entirely different than it is today.

spk_0 For me, the journey began back when I watched the film and ink and me in truth and became

spk_0 impassioned with the environmental health movement.

spk_0 Subsequent to that, I started doing a lot of research, made a lot of changes in my life,

spk_0 getting rid of plastic and moving to glass and taking my shoes off at the door, making

spk_0 changes that would be better for the environment and also better for the health of my family,

spk_0 knowing that there were a lot of things going on out there.

spk_0 In the years that followed my watching and in Community Truth, I really came to realize

spk_0 that people that I loved were getting sick.

spk_0 My friends were struggling with fertility.

spk_0 My friends were giving birth to kids with significant health issues.

spk_0 A number of my friends, I was living in the York of the time, were being diagnosed with

spk_0 different types of cancer in their early 30s or their 40s, like times when growing up,

spk_0 no one I knew would be sick, you know, unless there was like an extenuating circumstance.

spk_0 And so I started to really connect the dots between what had gone so terribly wrong with

spk_0 the health of the earth and human health and one of the things that I realized was that

spk_0 there were a lot of toxic chemicals out there in the world today.

spk_0 And many of those chemicals are certain of those chemicals, at least we're showing up

spk_0 in our skincare and in our color cosmetic products.

spk_0 Fast forward to beauty counter, I started beauty counter to create a movement for change

spk_0 to not create just another beauty brand, but what I really wanted to do because I wasn't

spk_0 able to find these products, was to create products that were both high performing,

spk_0 you know, on trend, aesthetically pleasing and also significantly safer for health.

spk_0 And I used the word safer and I still used word safer because no one's perfect.

spk_0 It's an imperfect process.

spk_0 It's a complicated process, but I really wanted to see if we could switch out ingredients

spk_0 of concern that were linked to different health issues and put other ones into products

spk_0 and still drive the same performance.

spk_0 And that was my goal was to sort of a macro level make the world healthier for everyone,

spk_0 but really use this industry and commerce as a vehicle for change.

spk_0 And that's exactly what I did when I found a beauty counter.

spk_0 And I remember being in our offices here on Berkeley Street and Santa Monica, like we were

spk_0 sitting here and I remember everyone was talking about green and eco-friendly products

spk_0 and I was like, you guys, we gotta stop saying that that's really limiting.

spk_0 That's only going to be appealing to certain subset of the population.

spk_0 And it was that moment where we said, let's call it clean, let's call it clean beauty because

spk_0 to me, clean was non-toxic, it was removing hemalcos of concern.

spk_0 And yes, we endeavor to be environmentally friendly, but it wasn't just an eco-play anymore.

spk_0 It was really protecting the health and safety of people.

spk_0 You were such a pioneer in so many ways.

spk_0 And the phrase clean beauty is now ubiquitous and in some cases, hopefully, table stakes.

spk_0 But it was definitely not the case when you were launching beauty counter.

spk_0 People thought I was crazy.

spk_0 They didn't understand that there was a need for clean.

spk_0 There wasn't such thing as clean.

spk_0 And they certainly weren't getting behind it.

spk_0 They were challenging me every step of the way.

spk_0 Now it's like, you're right, that now people think it's ubiquitous with beauty in practice, it isn't.

spk_0 Correct. I think it's also been clean-washed a lot.

spk_0 However, talked to me a little bit about the concrete things that you were doing differently

spk_0 from other brands to create and uphold those standards, like your nephrolist.

spk_0 So going back to beauty counter, and then I can fast forward to where we are now,

spk_0 because I think a lot of the core tenets of the old company we've carried over to the new company.

spk_0 First and foremost, we were the first company to actually publicly publish our nephrolist.

spk_0 We actually made it public to say these are ingredients that we choose not to formulate with,

spk_0 because we know that they are either definitively or likely linked to health issues.

spk_0 And that had never been done before.

spk_0 I think our commitment always was to transparency and to giving people honest information

spk_0 about the ingredients that we choose to formulate with, the ingredients we choose not to formulate with,

spk_0 because I think that, as you talked about clean washing or green washing,

spk_0 or basically anything in any industry, it's not even just about the beauty industry, you know,

spk_0 as well. It's about giving people the opportunity to make an informed decision.

spk_0 And I think that's really what we did back at beauty counter, and we continue to do a counter.

spk_0 On top of that, I think that our approach to clean has always been comprehensive.

spk_0 It's a complex issue. It's not just removing certain chemicals of concern and calling it a day.

spk_0 That's actually not creating clean. You know, I said to someone recently as an example,

spk_0 and again, we're not a perfect company. We've made many mistakes along the way.

spk_0 But this person who claimed to be a clean founder and was really endeavoring to create a clean

spk_0 the group inside, the actual lip gloss or whatever it was. I think those ingredients that she chose

spk_0 and formulated with were clean, but she had never considered the compatibility with the packaging

spk_0 that she chose, and whether that plastic packaging was leaching back into her clean product,

spk_0 the chemicals that she worked so hard to remove. So I think when I think about clean and I define it,

spk_0 it's ethical and responsible sourcing. Are people being paid a fair wage? You know, when we went

spk_0 to look at our minds for Micah, there were children in those minds. We didn't have many documentary

spk_0 on this. So it's all of those things. It's what you choose to formulate with. It's what you choose not

spk_0 to formulate with. It's the testing you do on the raw materials that the testing you do when you

spk_0 batch. Are you looking for heavy metals? It's a very complex process. And I think people don't really

spk_0 understand that. To say nothing of the componentry piece of it starts with this one ripple and this one

spk_0 idea. But then it's like it goes out so far. It's like touches so many different things. That's a

spk_0 really good example of what we do differently. And we did this and we continue to do this. And it's

spk_0 one small example, but we had made a decision to use some organic rose petals in our product or

spk_0 extractions from organic rose. And I think we were getting that Eastern Europe somewhere.

spk_0 And yet they kept coming back with really high levels of fallates when we tested the

spk_0 raw. And we're like, how is this possible? These are organic roses. Well, it never occurred to

spk_0 anyone that they were actually being picked in the farms and then put into plastic bags and left

spk_0 in the sun to cook, right? Because they were just in the field and the fields were hot. And so those

spk_0 plastic bags were leaching all these salads, which are a class of chemicals that if there's one I'd

spk_0 like to remove it's those. And so we got the entire industry to move to these jute bags so that it

spk_0 wasn't actually leaching the things into the organic rose petals. I mean, these are the things that

spk_0 go on every day that you don't even think about up and down the supply chain. I think the other

spk_0 thing that we really focused on at the old company, BeautyCounter, and we will continue to focus on

spk_0 in the new company, is that we really wanted to help pass pieces of legislation that were both

spk_0 comprehensive and health protective. Because at the time when I started BeautyCounter,

spk_0 there hadn't been a major federal law of pass since 1938. Now, thankfully, after thousands of

spk_0 meetings on a hill with members on both sides of the aisle, we were able to pass over 16 pieces

spk_0 of legislation during the years that BeautyCounter was in business, including Mocha, which is the

spk_0 modernization of the cosmetics regulation, which is the first time since 1938 that on a federal

spk_0 level, we made some decisions as a country to protect the health and safety people governing the

spk_0 entire personal care and beauty industry. And that's something that we did tirelessly. And it was a

spk_0 lot of work, but I think it paid off because it allowed people to participate in their democracy,

spk_0 whether they were a customer of the brand, whether they were representative of the brand. But we

spk_0 felt it wasn't just about our brand, it was about changing the entire industry. Yeah. So when we

spk_0 talked in 2019, you said that finding chemists and manufacturers who were willing to go against the

spk_0 status quo and work with you on these initiatives was incredibly challenging. And you said, and I

spk_0 quote you, they were hassled by it. They used to call us brutal counter. They hated working with us.

spk_0 Talk to me about identifying the right partners and how you figure that out and how you got to

spk_0 bring partners along on this journey. Well, first, you have to sell the dream and you have to show

spk_0 them where this is going and why making these changes or these adjustments or making that investment

spk_0 is worth their time. Right. So I think when I started out, I was kind of trying to paint a picture

spk_0 for them to say, listen, I know that you find this to be a hassle. I know this is really difficult. I

spk_0 know that you've got a system that works for you today. But I promise you that the American consumer,

spk_0 and obviously the global consumer, but at the time, mostly the American consumer is going to care

spk_0 about this. And we're drafting off, for example, the food movement where you've seen significant

spk_0 change over the years where people don't want high-forked toes corn syrup in their products. They

spk_0 don't want the food dies anymore. And we're exporting safer food out of the United States. And this

spk_0 is the same sort of thing. So first, I was able to really show them the dream in the beginning and

spk_0 convince certain manufacturers, not all of them, but a couple of them to take a chance when they

spk_0 started working on as they were just exhausted by the process. But then the business exploded.

spk_0 Right. So then all of a sudden, everyone sort of wanted to work with us. And then we created an

spk_0 entire industry. And it's one of those things where they understood that while it was more complex,

spk_0 more challenging, it also was paying off because they were seeing the results in sales. Because I

spk_0 think that consumers had started to recognize that there were chemicals to concern out there,

spk_0 partially from our doing, partially from other people's efforts. They realized that it was worth

spk_0 the work. But I think they still think we're brutal to work with because I think at the end of

spk_0 the day, people will try safer, cleaner, more environmentally friendly products in whatever industry.

spk_0 But if they don't think that the performance is there, they're not going to pull out their credit

spk_0 card the second time around. And so driving performance and safety simultaneously is really

spk_0 complicated. And it makes it a lot harder for them than if you just say it on care about the

spk_0 ingredients. But I wanted to feel like this or look like this or whatever. But also at the end of the

spk_0 day, you're doing them a great service because you're telling them this is the direction the wind

spk_0 is blowing. So you can either move with it and get ahead of it and move towards the future or you

spk_0 can be stuck behind. You're going to have to change. It's whether you do it now or you do it in the

spk_0 future. But you made it worth your while. I think that people in general want to be part of

spk_0 meaningful change and people want to protect the health and safety people. There's not a single

spk_0 person with whom I speak ever that hasn't been touched directly or indirectly by the health

spk_0 issues we face today. We are all dealing with this in our personal lives and all of us would do

spk_0 anything to protect our own bodies and those we love. Oftentimes others that we love more than

spk_0 ourselves. Sometimes we put ourselves in the back burner and we shouldn't. But people do understand

spk_0 it's important. And I think when you're working towards something that you know is important to

spk_0 people, that's exciting. So as hard as it can be, people also got chast up because they were like,

spk_0 wow, like we nailed it. We got it done and wow. And like now I know that this ingredients

spk_0 not there and we actually accomplished something that we're really proud of.

spk_0 So I also want to talk about your peer-to-peer selling model on top of D to C and through your

spk_0 retail partnerships as well. So how did you think about this initial network of consultants or

spk_0 advocates that you created as part of the beauty counter offering?

spk_0 You know, I really felt that we had a story to tell and I thought that story was best told

spk_0 person to person whether that happened digitally or physically. I mean, I really believed that the

spk_0 incumbents, the large brands that we've all grown up with controlled all the shelf space. I felt

spk_0 like department store distribution was waning. We were looking at peer-to-peer selling in every aspect

spk_0 of the business of the gig economy and I really felt that no better way to change the world than

spk_0 let it fire into the asses of a bunch of women who care. And so we made the decision to sort of

spk_0 take best-in-class attributes of a traditional direct selling model, traditional e-commerce,

spk_0 traditional retail. And again, this is going back to 2011. So we had the OG creators, like

spk_0 everyone calls them creators now. They're the same, oftentimes literally the same women who were

spk_0 using Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, whatever. Now obviously took talking things like that to

spk_0 talk about brands that they love, tell our story about why this matters, et cetera. And so

spk_0 the combination of that and we enjoyed relationships over the years with Sephora and Altta and

spk_0 Target. We had collections, we had short-term partnerships, we had longer-term partnerships,

spk_0 we had our own stores because people wanted to gather. Every single transaction came through our

spk_0 e-commerce platform because we wanted to control the customer experience. We wanted to make sure that

spk_0 we were able to support our clients and to utilize data to our advantage. But having women amplify

spk_0 our efforts, talk about the issue, educate their communities on why this matters was really

spk_0 powerful for us as a brand. And I think it's actually the thing that I ended up loving the most

spk_0 about the business that we started. People don't really talk to me about clean beauty. What they

spk_0 talked to me about is about being a woman in business and how to power up other women and help

spk_0 them gain confidence through community, through work, through economic opportunity, through all those

spk_0 things. And that's what's been so powerful about the creator model is that it's afforded women

spk_0 the opportunity to participate at times when maybe it would have been more challenging because

spk_0 they were in the child bearing years. Or maybe they were just trying to make ends meet or they were

spk_0 a young person trying to earn a little bit of extra money on the side that allowed them to be part

spk_0 of meaningful change in a way that felt really positive. So you said 16 pieces of legislation that

spk_0 has passed in a positive direction. And I know that you spent a lot of time talking to politicians,

spk_0 testifying before Congress. What do you think was ultimately the most important thing to pass

spk_0 these pieces of legislation to make this actual lasting change? Like what was the most effective

spk_0 thing that you did to get that act passed? How do you actually move the needle when it comes to

spk_0 Congress? It's very, very difficult and increasingly challenging because we are more and more divided

spk_0 as a country. I think what we did effectively was a couple of things. First and foremost,

spk_0 we utilized this community of women, consultants, advocates, creators, who were able to tell their

spk_0 personal stories, who had vastly different points of view on just about everything. Politics,

spk_0 religion, they were from different socioeconomic backgrounds. They lived in different parts of

spk_0 the country. They found common ground in the one thing that really mattered to that, which was

spk_0 protecting people's health and safety and creating meaningful change in the industry. So we held

spk_0 several thousand meetings on the hill with members of Congress on both sides of the aisle.

spk_0 With equal measure, you have to gain consensus. And one thing everyone could agree on is that it had

spk_0 been a very, very long time, like 80 years since they'd updated a major federal law. Everyone knew

spk_0 that we'd introduced all these chemicals into commerce over the past 50 plus years, 70 years.

spk_0 But yet, no one had really tested a lot of these chemicals for safety. On the more conservative side

spk_0 of the House, I think it was important for us to prove that we could create an actually

spk_0 financially successful business while still doing the right thing from a health and legislative

spk_0 standpoint. And I think on the left side of the aisle, on the more liberal side of the aisle,

spk_0 it was convincing them that commerce, rather than just nonprofit organizations, etc, was also

spk_0 critically important. And we were able to bring those two groups together through hundreds of

spk_0 thousands of text messages using our clients, our community at large. And then ultimately,

spk_0 I think probably, finally, when I was able to testify in front of Congress, it was sort of being

spk_0 able to speak to it because trying to look at it from all points of view and being able to be

spk_0 in a defensible position on why this mattered no matter which point of view or which political

spk_0 party you were affiliated with, it was like all of us women were saying together far right, far

spk_0 left and everyone in between this matters. And we can do it in a way that is good for business,

spk_0 good for people, good for health, good for everyone. I think it just took a lot of time.

spk_0 Yeah, that would make sense. It would take a lot of time because you're talking about bipartisanship,

spk_0 education, information, and a comprehensive 360 strategy. So yeah.

spk_0 I mean, it was 10 years of just relentless pursuit of modernization.

spk_0 Like, talk about tenacity. I mean, I feel like that's also a really good learning and process of

spk_0 how tenacious can you be, how long can you follow something, and that is certainly helpful when

spk_0 building any business. I mean, I always say to people like overnight success is 10 years 24-7.

spk_0 That's overnight success. You know, sometimes you'll be like, if you're lucky,

spk_0 yeah, if you're lucky, if everything lines up perfectly. So moving into 2021, this is ultimately where

spk_0 things start to shift quite a bit for you and the artist formerly known as Beauty Counter.

spk_0 You ultimately sold Beauty Counter to the Carlyle Group in 2021 in a deal that valued the brand

spk_0 at a billion with a B dollars. Tell me about the lead up to this acquisition,

spk_0 were you actively trying to sell? Was this the outcome that you desired? Did it exceed or

spk_0 underwhelm you in any way? And what your vision for Beauty Counter was post sale? Where you're like,

spk_0 great, Dan, I want to walk, where was your head? When I started Beauty Counter, I didn't have the money

spk_0 to capitalize a business. I think one of the challenges that people face today is the demands of

spk_0 consumer. You know, I was saying this to someone recently used to be like, you could open a store

spk_0 and then launch your website and then have your campaign. But now everyone wants everything and

spk_0 they want it all now. They want content. They want you to be on all your social channels. They want

spk_0 extraordinary products. They want, I mean, they want this and that. It's hard. And so to build brands

spk_0 today in most industries is pretty capital intensive. And so for me, it wasn't possible for me to

spk_0 self-finance the business to get it off the ground. I wish I could, but maybe I'd be a billionaire.

spk_0 You wish you were independently wealthy with generous, yeah. Or I just wish I'd like to do it. You know,

spk_0 I look at friends who sold their businesses and are enormously wealthy, but that was a different time.

spk_0 Yeah. So I always had capital behind me and I had started with sort of individuals and then

spk_0 moved to institution. And again, one of the things that people don't necessarily understand

spk_0 and some of the beauty counter community did not understand this is when you take in capital,

spk_0 which I was very open about with everybody, all the women that were representing the brand, all of

spk_0 our clients, et cetera, is that they have an expectation that they're going to get a return on

spk_0 their investment. That's how it works. That's how the world works. And there's a ticking clock. And

spk_0 so for me, it was a seven-year ticking clock based on some of the documentation that I've

spk_0 inside. And again, also, I think that as an entrepreneur, and I had raised capital before, but I think I

spk_0 learned a lot in this process that I didn't necessarily know. So what happened was in 2019,

spk_0 we were approached by a strategic to sell the company. And I, at the time, I was like, I don't

spk_0 want to sell to a strategic and for people listening when I say strategic, those are the large

spk_0 corporations, the Estee Lauders, the Lory Ales, the Unilevers, the ones that own lots and lots of

spk_0 brands. And because I really wanted to be the next generation leader in PD, I turned them down.

spk_0 I bet that went over well. I mean, my investors were super supportive. I had two groups that were

spk_0 behind me at the time, TBG Growth, who were wonderful investors to me. And then Mous Capital,

spk_0 which is the family that is behind the ranch now, both of whom were really, really good to me.

spk_0 Like, I think that I did well for them, and they were really good to me. And obviously, we had

spk_0 attention to moments, but in general, incredible investors. But I think that they obviously,

spk_0 you know, as investors, especially TBG, they had fun, and it was coming to them. So we turned

spk_0 them down. They supported my decision to do that. I think they felt like we could keep going. We

spk_0 were growing. And I felt like there was more to do. Meaning like you wanted to get to a bigger place

spk_0 before you sold. I just felt like I wasn't ready. Look, what I actually said to the strategic

spk_0 partner at a lunch was you're kind of like the guy that I want to marry, but I'm not ready to get

spk_0 married. And your proposal was not exciting. And I don't love the ring. And they looked at me like,

spk_0 are you kidding me? We were growing my leaps and bounds. And I thought I'm not ready to

spk_0 settle down to settle down. Yeah, I just wasn't. And by the way, it was never, and I want to be clear

spk_0 about this. I enjoyed earning money. Like I like making money. Money is important in life. I

spk_0 understand that. But it was never about the money. That's not the thing that drove me. Then it's

spk_0 not the thing that drives me now. I hope to build businesses that allow me to enjoy financial

spk_0 returns. And I believe in business, you need to show financial returns. And it's okay for people,

spk_0 especially women to want to earn money. But at the same time, the reason I started the company

spk_0 was not to make money. It was to change the world. So the deal was really good for me as an individual.

spk_0 But I think it was like great for everybody. So fast forward, we don't tell the company,

spk_0 COVID happens. And I thought, you know what? I actually want to keep going with this. I want to

spk_0 bring in a financial sponsor so that I can continue to run this company. And ultimately, I think I

spk_0 want to take this company public. And I want to become the next generation leader in beauty. So

spk_0 when I sold the company to the Carlisle group, and I felt at the time they were the absolute

spk_0 right partner, they've given us a strong valuation. The person with whom I did the deal really

spk_0 believed in what we are doing. They believed in the power of our business model. The community

spk_0 surrounded us. Like I was really, really excited. And yes, as a female founder, as a woman,

spk_0 to have started a business from scratch and to sell for a billion dollars, even though I only

spk_0 owned a small piece of the business, which is also something that people don't realize,

spk_0 was a really huge win for me because I thought at the time that we were going to be able to

spk_0 continue to build on this incredible momentum that we had garnered over the years that preceded

spk_0 the sale. And I knew that they really believed in the power of our community. This is one of the

spk_0 things that's been hard over the last couple years. There's a lot of people think that I sold

spk_0 the company. It was like, peace out. I'm just going to ride off into the sunset. I don't care

spk_0 about the community that surrounded that, but that's actually quite the opposite. I care more about

spk_0 the community and the women that I served in, probably anything in the world. And sometimes when

spk_0 you're in the middle of transactions, you can't talk about everything. But I did feel at the moment

spk_0 we sold proud of myself, proud of the community at large and excited about the opportunity to

spk_0 continue to build on this. It is so complicated what you can and cannot say. So talk to me about

spk_0 the first few months after the acquisition. Were there immediate changes that took place?

spk_0 Did your role change in any way? And once the ink was dry, were the next steps what you thought

spk_0 was going to happen? Or were you surprised? Yes, there were immediate things that changed the

spk_0 ways in which we were doing business. I felt really intact as CEO. I built a business straight

spk_0 up for eight plus years. And when we did the deal, it was clear that I was going to continue on as

spk_0 CEO and that I was the talent that they were getting behind in my team. What happened is that

spk_0 literally within, I mean, I swear it was like a week later after we sold the business that the

spk_0 world opened up for the first time since the beginning of the pandemic, the people were led out

spk_0 their homes. And you know this because you were also in the consumer market at the time, the business,

spk_0 my business, but other businesses as well, especially in beauty, they kind of fumbled or

spk_0 faltered or just had a weird summer season. And that was because people redirected their spend

spk_0 to fashion for the first time in a long time. They were able to travel and for people for whom

spk_0 there's a choice of what they can and cannot spend if they have limited dollars to spend against

spk_0 clothing or beauty or whatever. If they've been spending in beauty for the past two years and they

spk_0 had the opportunity to go buy a new pair of blue jeans, they were doing that as they should have,

spk_0 right? On top of it, because all of the people that really built or were the engine of our business,

spk_0 and certainly from a customer acquisition standpoint were predominantly women, they were getting

spk_0 out of their houses too. And they were going on trips for the first time or they were taking their

spk_0 kids to do things. And so a lot of people have said, oh, well, you just got this pandemic bump,

spk_0 the COVID bump and stuff. And I'm like, no, actually, I think we flawlessly, and I mean this,

spk_0 like I say this with COVID, I think we flawlessly navigated COVID, understood what was going on,

spk_0 and we're able to lean into our community and emotionally connect and lift them up during a

spk_0 really difficult time. What I did not do well as the CEOs anticipate how things were going to change

spk_0 for consumers and for those that represented the brand at a time where people were tired of being

spk_0 on Zoom. So they were totally sick of being digital, but not yet comfortable really being with

spk_0 people physically. And really quickly after we sold the company, the Omnichrom variant came through.

spk_0 So right when we were about to start having physical meetups again, and like getting people

spk_0 again, it was just kidding, no. And I think all these things combined, made our business challenging

spk_0 that fall. And so they made the decision, even though we were still growing, but not growing the

spk_0 way that we had projected to remove me as CEO. That was four months after they bought the business.

spk_0 And they started a process to find a CEO to run the company. How did you feel?

spk_0 Pretty devastated. I'm sure that felt like it came out of nowhere. And even so, it's your baby.

spk_0 You know, it was really, really, really hard. I mean, I remember exactly where I was when I got

spk_0 the phone call. I remember exactly what was said to me, and I sort of, I them not to do it and to

spk_0 give me a little more time. But I think that there were some signals earlier on that I hadn't really

spk_0 grasped because I was so excited about it. And I think that, yeah, I mean, look, it was a big bummer

spk_0 to say the least. And I was really, really emotional and really, really sad and angry and all

spk_0 the above. I'm actually okay now. Like, I think that I've gone through it. I'm not angry. I don't

spk_0 think that anyone did anything with mal intent. I think it was an unprecedented moment in time.

spk_0 I don't hold onto it because I've moved on and it's in my past. And so I can talk about it.

spk_0 That sounds very healthy. So you stayed on board as Chief Brand Officer for the next few months

spk_0 before leaving the company. What was that transition like? What were you learning from that? And as

spk_0 someone who was watching from the outside, I was like, well, this woman is resilient. And I'm sure

spk_0 she is using that deep well of resiliency to get through this incredibly yucky time. But what was

spk_0 it like for those next few months? I feel like the way that I think this kind of is like, I was

spk_0 maling love with my husband. And he decided to leave me for another woman. And I was devastated. But I

spk_0 had to show up in front of the family at the family wedding to put a brave face on for my kids

spk_0 and to smile and make them think that everything was okay. And that's kind of how I was trying to

spk_0 create stability for the women that we served because they had economic dependence on the business.

spk_0 I wanted to be strong for my team. When I left, the CEO didn't feel we could work together. And

spk_0 that was probably the hardest time of all. Because then I was completely out of the company. And

spk_0 I wasn't able to be in contact with people. And that was the hardest part for me.

spk_0 Was allowing him what he asked for, which was the space to do it his way.

spk_0 Can I just say that I appreciate your candor in this and your humanity in it? Because women need to

spk_0 hear stories like this. People need to hear stories like this. People need to hear that it's not

spk_0 just one success to another. And everything is this perfect Instagram vision of happiness and success

spk_0 story that building anything worthwhile is painful and complicated. So the next CEO tried to

spk_0 change the business through doing a number of different things, changing technology, hiring

spk_0 consultants, making a deal with Ulta, which ultimately all of your ambassadors ended up feeling

spk_0 frustrated by it. Because like now they're competing with this giant retailer. You're on the outside

spk_0 of all of this looking in. Were you following all of the changes or were you trying to like stick

spk_0 your fingers in your ears and not look at the roller coaster of your baby changing? I was following it

spk_0 because I still had an economic interest in the company. I had a desire for the company to be

spk_0 successful. I cared very much about these women. I was watching. I was trying to help from the

spk_0 sidelines. I was making suggestions. I was speaking with Carlisle. But I think the CEO didn't really

spk_0 necessarily listen to where my institutional knowledge and my gut instincts would take me.

spk_0 It was frustrating. But at some point I also was, I mean I wasn't on the board and I wasn't

spk_0 working for the company. So like I was out. I really had no say in what was going on. But from time

spk_0 to time I would have conversations with Carlisle and they would listen to me. But it was still

spk_0 challenging to watch it happen. So then just to like make things even more complicated. In 2024

spk_0 you were thrown for yet another loop when you were asked to come back to Beauty Counter as CEO.

spk_0 That feels like whiplash for me. I can't imagine and I remember watching this. I was like

spk_0 now what's happening again? So how did that conversation go and how did that feel?

spk_0 So in the late fall of 2023 the head of the board the time called me and said would like you to

spk_0 come back in as CEO. Did you dance? I think my immediate reaction was like no thank you. I'm not

spk_0 going back in. Like I finally have gotten to the other side of this. But then of course they

spk_0 continued to try to convince me. And I think I really thought about three things. Number one, I had

spk_0 a community of women that I wanted to continue to serve. I felt an obligation to them and a

spk_0 responsibility to try to help them. Number two, my mission of getting saver products into people's

spk_0 hands of changing laws of changing industry was still super important to me. And three, I had an

spk_0 economic interest in the company. And so for those three reasons I'm reluctantly but finally did

spk_0 make the decision to join on February 1st of 2024. I became CEO again of the company, which set off

spk_0 another wild series of events. You returned to the company. Carlyle backed out and handed the

spk_0 business over to its lenders. The company went into foreclosure and then you bought the rights back.

spk_0 That is a lot to happen in a very short period of time. Walk me through what that felt like and

spk_0 where your head was during this entire roller coaster. Well, when I went back in in February,

spk_0 I realized that the business was more broken than I had realized when I decided to take the job,

spk_0 I could sum it up by just saying that I think it was just too late. And there wasn't a clear path

spk_0 to success. And I think that Carlyle having really attempted to find a home for it, you know,

spk_0 really trying to get it sold or whatever. But it was such a monumental turnaround situation at that

spk_0 point in time that I think it was just a little bit too late. And when I came back in, I didn't

spk_0 realize that. And it was six weeks later that they made the decision. They weren't going to

spk_0 fund it. And it was no longer profitable. So we went into foreclosure and yeah, it was a big

spk_0 shock to system. I mean, talking about learning a lot. I learned a lot very quickly. We went into

spk_0 foreclosure. We tried to get a deal done. We had some people kind of circling around the brand.

spk_0 And this is like another one of those stories that's kind of an out there with people claiming this.

spk_0 There was never like a binding offer. There wasn't a real opportunity. So

spk_0 what happened was actually this amazing man who was a bank of America. I had spoken to him on the

spk_0 phone at one point. There was a syndicated, there was a group of people that had the debt on the

spk_0 company. For people that don't understand this when you go into foreclosure, it's kind of like your

spk_0 house. If you can't pay your mortgage, but basically we couldn't pay, we were in breach of our

spk_0 debt covenants. And I can't remember what the covenant was. But something that we didn't even have

spk_0 enough sales or enough cash to make or whatever it was. I don't even remember. It doesn't matter.

spk_0 But like at home, if you are, if you feel to pay your mortgage, the bank assumes the asset. They

spk_0 then own it because they carry the mortgage. No different in the business world. So basically,

spk_0 the syndicated group of banks, which included Bank of America and TPMorgan, some others,

spk_0 they owned the asset at that point immediately. So I was having conversations with their representatives,

spk_0 and ultimately I had one long conversation with one of the men who was representing them

spk_0 through Bank of America, which is lead. And I explained the whole story. We talked to, and so on

spk_0 Sunday night, four days before you're going to go into liquidation or go into auction or whatever

spk_0 they were going to do at that point. Through my lawyer, the bank's column, and they said, we want

spk_0 you to have your business back if you'd like. You did something that was important. We don't have a

spk_0 deal on the table. And this is something that banks don't often do, but I really respect them. They

spk_0 were like, we want you to get your business back. Like your business matters. You are an

spk_0 incredible founder. And this is an unfortunate situation for all of us. But like if you like to

spk_0 buy your company back, we'd like to sell to you because we don't have a deal with anyone else.

spk_0 Craig, that's insane. It was. It was like I really, really respected them for doing that. And so I

spk_0 then, I'm like, I'm on spring break. I'm sitting in Miami. I was sitting with my kids, and I remember

spk_0 my younger daughter, and I'm like, all tired of say this, that getting upset. But she was just like,

spk_0 you just can't let this die mom. And like she can say, mommy, you can't let this die. You're

spk_0 so hard and so many people are counting on you, and you just can't let this die. And so,

spk_0 I mean, I had like 48 hours to like come up with the money, and I said, I dipped in massively,

spk_0 and are saving to say the least. My husband and I had to have like an immediate conversation.

spk_0 We had a family discussion about it. It was like a full on thing. Are we going to take this risk?

spk_0 What does this mean for mom? Like the whole thing. And we made the decision to do it. And I then

spk_0 called some of my former investors and then they wanted to say, listen, do you guys want to play ball with

spk_0 me? Got a wire money in like today. Literally. And so like within 48 hours, we put the money together,

spk_0 we bought the business. And yeah. And then I had like a complete anxiety full blown anxiety attack.

spk_0 Oh my gosh. What have I done? Like I'm petrified. I have no idea what I'm doing. It was a really

spk_0 scary moment in my life. And I sat with Lindsey doll who had been my former head of mission.

spk_0 Who's now virtual. Who's an amazing woman. And I like literally just like cried my eyes out.

spk_0 Like I'm tired. I like, oh my god. What have I done? But you know this. And then you take a

spk_0 deep breath and you're like, okay, we can do this. We can do this. Also like what I test them at to

spk_0 you and the business that you had built a that the banks had that conversation with you and be

spk_0 that you could get the money together so quickly. I mean, there was literally a 48 hour

spk_0 ticking clock to come up with money. These are conversations that usually take weeks if not

spk_0 months. And yeah, I mean, Greg, it's a testament to you to the type of business that you run,

spk_0 to the type of partner you are, to the vision that you had, the company that you built,

spk_0 that you were able to pull all of that together. Even if nothing else, the fact that all of this

spk_0 could come together, I hope that you could appreciate what that meant. People wanted to bet on you.

spk_0 That's validating or affirming. Yeah, it was affirming. It was all the above. It was wonderful.

spk_0 It was scary. I do really appreciate those that have stood by me. Not just people that put

spk_0 money behind me, but my team. I mean, I probably the greatest compliment of my life is how many of my

spk_0 old team members asked to come back and stay with me through really tumultuous times and our

spk_0 customers and women that represented the brands. Like I keep trying to remind everybody that we've

spk_0 been through hell and back together and we should treat everyone in our community with respect that

spk_0 they deserve. If they're staying, the course in there still with us in this new company, wow,

spk_0 we owe them all a debt of gratitude genuinely. So it's really been a ride for what a good one.

spk_0 In so many ways also. So beauty counter, 2.0 is not beauty counter, 2.0, it's counter. So talk to me

spk_0 about the process of starting over again. What did that actually look like? What was your strategy

spk_0 for taking all of these learnings and applying it to the company and this building a new and

spk_0 improved business? I mean, on one hand, yes, huge, huge, huge mountain to climb. But on the other,

spk_0 you have all of this experience, you have all of these learnings, you have good will, you have

spk_0 people who want you to succeed. What were your next steps besides changing the name and the branding?

spk_0 So what happened was I bought the business with the intention of continuing the operations and

spk_0 then I really, really quickly realized that there was no way I could do that because the costs

spk_0 were insurmountable. I mean, the technology alone was costing millions of dollars a month.

spk_0 The technology that the old previous CEO had implemented, not you. Correct. And it was like

spk_0 27 full-time people or something. It was crazy. And I mean, I was like, I'm like self-financing this

spk_0 with a couple of people. So I made the incredibly, incredibly God-wrenching decision to shut the

spk_0 business down. And that came with some pretty negative, challenging consequences are really hard

spk_0 things for people. You know, we had to let go of people without there was no money. I mean, there

spk_0 was no money. So they didn't get severance. All the women that had built businesses with us.

spk_0 If they had large businesses with us, like, I had to tell them that this was over. And it was like

spk_0 over overnight without warning. That was really hard emotionally. It was just a hard thing to go

spk_0 through as the person delivering the message, as the person receiving the message, people having to

spk_0 live with what happened. Like, that was hard. And there was a lot of sadness, anger, frustration,

spk_0 which all of which I completely understand and misinformation that was being spread and

spk_0 misunderstanding at times. But that was really difficult. So we shut the business down on May 1st

spk_0 of 2024. And I had no idea. I had no strategy because I wasn't planning on doing this.

spk_0 Right. And I mean, it was like, I came back into turn of business around none of what I thought I

spk_0 was going to do with happening. And so we had a small team that we held on to. And I said,

spk_0 look, I can hold on to you guys for like two months. Can I take a beat? Just try to think about

spk_0 what this could look like. And you know, some people jumped ship. Most of them didn't. Most of them

spk_0 said, like, we're here, which was so amazing. And I kind of gave myself this first couple of months

spk_0 like this summer just to think because I didn't have a strategy. And I also knew that to start a new

spk_0 company, even if you based on the core tenets of an old company and you had the assets of the old

spk_0 company, I mean, when I had to renegotiate every single liability at the old business heads,

spk_0 I mean, that was an incredibly cumbersome process of trying to say to people like, we're not

spk_0 shit sandwich. So when you move forward with me, if I give you ten cents on the dollar, like,

spk_0 I don't have the money. I mean, they didn't have the money. So it was like, that was a constant

spk_0 challenge. And people were amazing, especially our contract manufacturing partners. And most of

spk_0 them stuck with me and took huge hits. All of us did. But then I spent some time just thinking. And

spk_0 I thought, you know, look, the market has changed, the industry has changed, the world has changed,

spk_0 like how we bring ourself into this has to be completely reimagined. We are disruptors and leaders.

spk_0 And disruptors and leaders come out with a new point of view. And I really felt I needed the

spk_0 time to figure that out. And I think what I came to realize was that there were limitations with

spk_0 the old company, the old company's name, counter, you know, the minute you put the word beauty in it,

spk_0 you lose a big large part of the population that might not be exciting. It doesn't allow you to go

spk_0 into a Jason Cs should you ever so desire. I felt like it felt fresh. I felt new. I wanted to

spk_0 redo the packaging. Some people really love it. Some people don't. I'm like, I know it's objective,

spk_0 but I love it. I feel proud of it. I feel like it's represented at the brand that we want to

spk_0 become. And I think we took a look at everything from how we distribute the products to which

spk_0 products we're going to sell. We did a huge skew rationalization exercise to say which products

spk_0 really matter to our consumer. What does a consumer care about today? How do they want to shop with

spk_0 us today? What is different? How can we do things differently? And I spent a lot of time thinking

spk_0 through it. And we're still thinking through this. And when we launched on June 25th, it was an

spk_0 intentional soft launch because, you know, everyone's like, you did it. I'm like, no, we haven't done it.

spk_0 We just turned the engine back on. Like we haven't proven that we've gotten this all figured out

spk_0 yet. And we don't have all the answers. But I needed the time in last summer. And then, you know,

spk_0 in the last 50 months to really think about how might we show up in a way that allows us to serve

spk_0 community, that allows us to educate people that allows us to advocate for things that matter.

spk_0 That gives people products that they love and done in a way that feels relevant to today and

spk_0 moving forward, taking the best part of the past and all the learnings and mistakes that we made,

spk_0 but also knowing that the world is different today. And that's what counter is. It's an entirely new

spk_0 company based on, you know, a new set of circumstances, but certainly with the same commitment to

spk_0 protecting health and safety of people, to driving performance in our products to using commerce as

spk_0 an engine, retention, building on community, which I think is the most powerful asset we've ever had.

spk_0 So is peer-to-peer selling still a part of the plan? It certainly is. What we don't have anymore is

spk_0 we no longer allow people to build teams. I think it's one of the things that contributed to the

spk_0 demise of the old business. Unfortunately, it was just that even when the business was waiting,

spk_0 the commission structure was going up and it was one of the millions of challenges. So we absolutely

spk_0 are building a community of people, which was really the 95% before, who want to be part of the

spk_0 community. They want to be part of the movement. They want to be part of the change, but they don't

spk_0 necessarily want to build a team that just want to act as an individual seller, creator, independent,

spk_0 however you look at it. And that was the line share of the business before. And that's come with some

spk_0 challenges too, because a lot of the people that had teams before really were amazing women that

spk_0 taught others how to gain the confidence or they trained them on product and stuff. So we're learning,

spk_0 it's, you know, community isn't something you just build again overnight and especially in a

spk_0 digital world. And so we're figuring that out. But I think that we wanted to democratize the

spk_0 opportunity. We wanted to put slightly more dollars into people's hands that were actively working

spk_0 in business. And you know, they're only hundreds of cents a dollar. So how do we move that around?

spk_0 So we're looking at that. We're also looking at independent affiliates or influencers, but separate

spk_0 from those who wants to build a really sticky relationship can be truly part of our community. And

spk_0 who wants to have a light touch relationship with us. And what do our own stores look like? And

spk_0 how do we control the customer experience? I think we are very, very focused on direct

spk_0 consumer right now. I reserve the right to change our minds and say, we'll open in stores someday

spk_0 right now. We're really focused on learning about our customer again and what she needs and what

spk_0 she wants from us. And we're also really focused on a more mature audience, which is really was the

spk_0 core of who we serve was a woman's 35 plus who I think as a woman who's well into her 50s like

spk_0 I think we're ignored by beauty. And I think there's still some white space there to really give

spk_0 her a product that she loves. How did you decide on the SKUs and the product assortment this time

spk_0 around? It's been an interesting exercise. I think first of all, we learned that the top 50 SKUs

spk_0 were driving 91% of the revenue. Women's is true most businesses, right? And we had like 200 and

spk_0 something out SKUs. So I think that one thing was, you know, just looking at which products people

spk_0 really loved. And of course, people have been disappointed at some of the ones we didn't bring back.

spk_0 But that's just, you know, I had to look at the business. I've changed my attitude on

spk_0 product. I think over the 10 year of the previous CEO, there had been like some mediocre products put

spk_0 into the market. And I've kind of said every like, if you're not willing to bet your job on this,

spk_0 it's probably not good enough to bring to the market. Like, what can we do and do really, really well?

spk_0 People have a million choices. We can only own some share for a while. We'll never get 100%

spk_0 of share of all it. I mean, even as a founder, there's other brands and things that I use, even though like

spk_0 90% of what I use is my own product. Like, I'm not 100% using counter because there are other things

spk_0 I love and there are other people doing great work. But, you know, how do we do things that when we

spk_0 show up that we do really well, like our vitamin C serum from our old coming in or new company,

spk_0 we carried the formula for it. Like people absolutely love that. We have sold millions of that.

spk_0 That's an incredible product. So that product had a right to be on the shelf of counter.

spk_0 You know, another product where we sold a couple of them and it was just a mediocre experience.

spk_0 No, let's get rid of it. You know, it's not worth it. Heroes only. Yeah, heroes only. But like,

spk_0 I think that women have skincare regimens. So we looked at our top line, which was counter time,

spk_0 which was our aging grace flakes. I hate the word anti-aging. Because you're aging. We are all aging.

spk_0 We renovated our what was counter match to counter glow and some more deeply moisturizing line.

spk_0 I'm really proud of that. Now, I'm using those two lines interchangeably. So we brought some

spk_0 newness into the market, carried over some of the old favorites. And we've launched with the more

spk_0 succinct set of skincare. We're about to launch color cosmetics. We redid all the componentry and

spk_0 that took some time. But I think it is going to be a tighter assortment. And I actually think that's okay.

spk_0 I think that's actually better. Rather than being like Jack of all trades master of none,

spk_0 let's be really good at less products. Hopefully it'll work. Who knows? We'll say I might be wrong.

spk_0 But that's what I think is the right to go. I'd bet on you. So how does it feel to be back in the

spk_0 CEO role? How does it feel three months in? I'm actually really enjoying it. I mean, I'm really tired.

spk_0 I think what's hard for right now is just it's a lot. And my daughter, Georgie said to me,

spk_0 there's issues like I think you forgot like this is actually a startup and you just thought like

spk_0 you're going to turn it all on. And it was just going to be this big company again. And it's not. And so

spk_0 I think that it feels good. I feel like I'm showing up in a better way. I've done a lot of soul

spk_0 searching. You know, over the years, I did a lot of executive coaching and learn how to be a better

spk_0 leader. And I've looked at leadership styles of other people and what works today. And I do believe

spk_0 strongly in servant leadership. And I think you are there to serve the people. And I do believe the

spk_0 only business you're ever going to be in is the business of people. And so how do you best serve

spk_0 their needs? And I've tried to be really, really clear and concise with my communication really

spk_0 direct when I have to make a difficult decision. I do it. And I don't look back. I'm neither judging

spk_0 myself or making difficult decisions nor am I doubting myself all the time. I think I'm a better CEO

spk_0 today than I used to be. Not that I'm perfect because I make millions of mistakes every single day.

spk_0 But I think that I feel more confident in the seat than ever before. And I feel really great

spk_0 about the team that I have around me. I'm excited and tired. Both. What are you looking forward to?

spk_0 Next three, six, 12 months. I look forward to the day that there is a story written about us that

spk_0 the kind of Polish that they did it twice that they came in and disrupted and then street ones.

spk_0 And they came in and they did it twice and that in doing that the process of disruption that they

spk_0 emotionally and economically powered up a huge, huge group of women and gave them an opportunity

spk_0 to use their voices and their time and their efforts towards things that matter. On my last day on

spk_0 Earth, like I hope that I've made a huge difference for women and for people's health and people's

spk_0 families, we do have an ability to sort of put our differences aside and find common ground. And

spk_0 I think that's the thing that I was most proud of with Beauty Counter. And I think that's an

spk_0 opportunity for us here with Counter is to allow women to realize that their voices really matter,

spk_0 that their time matters, that their efforts matter and together us as ordinary women can do

spk_0 extraordinary work if we just work as a team. I hope somewhere in that cover story somewhere,

spk_0 sometime three to five years from now that people will recognize that we're able to garner the

spk_0 love and support of a huge group of people that surround this brand because the work we do really

spk_0 matters and we're really genuinely trying to have significant social impact.

spk_0 Well, you know that I will be there cheering you on from afar. So for the last three questions,

spk_0 I've asked you these questions before. So I'm going to ask you for an updated take on it.

spk_0 The first one is about mistakes because we all make mistakes and I think it's important to talk

spk_0 about them. So can you tell me about a mistake that you've made in your career in the past six

spk_0 years and what you've learned from it? The biggest mistake that I made in the past six years was

spk_0 underestimating the complexity of the environment coming out of COVID and not as a leader and as a CEO

spk_0 looking at where the world was going and where the world was. I think I was sort of caught up in the

spk_0 moment and you have to be caught up in the moment. You have to be present but you have to be future

spk_0 thinking. You cannot just ever rest on your laurels because the world is changing and evolving like

spk_0 every second and I think that had I done a better job of anticipating what would happen post-COVID

spk_0 and what that would mean for society, for the consumer markets, for the women that we serve,

spk_0 for more customers. I think that I might not have found myself in the position I did with the old

spk_0 company B2Counter. That's probably the biggest thing that I can point to and then I think one other

spk_0 thing just to add to that is I'm not proud of how emotional I was. I pointed fingers and blamed

spk_0 others and I could have spent more time looking at myself in the mirror and understanding how it

spk_0 wasn't a victim. It's just things just happen and that sometimes just accepting what is and moving on

spk_0 from that is better than dwelling on the past or what you cannot control because there are just

spk_0 things that you cannot control, period. So a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are in

spk_0 their first lives and they know that they want to pivot or do something new whether it's in the same

spk_0 industry or in a different industry as someone who is pivoted repeatedly. What advice would you give

spk_0 someone who's standing there nervous about making a change in their own career and are just a little

spk_0 bit scared about that leap? So I think that first of all and I've said this so many times predominantly to

spk_0 women and women that I've served over the years is that it's not that you're not scared. You are

spk_0 scared. I'm scared right now. I'm still scared. Things aren't going perfectly with counter.

spk_0 It's hard. Yeah. I'm scared every single day. The difference is choosing to walk through the

spk_0 fear rather than allowing the fear to paralyze you. So I think that you can feel scared and still take

spk_0 action. I think the other thing that I think that people forget so often especially women is that

spk_0 you genuinely have everything you need to be successful. And if your gut is telling you that where

spk_0 you are isn't right or that you have the capacity to do more or that this other thing is intriguing to

spk_0 or that this opportunity is scary but you really want to take it then my answer or my statement to

spk_0 you is absolutely take the job, make the move, go for it. You've got this. You just stuck doubting

spk_0 yourself. It may take an incredible amount of hard work and determination and that job that you

spk_0 may take may not be the right job but it'll lead you to the right one. So don't sit complacent

spk_0 out of fear. Walk through the fear. Open the door and walk through it and own the fact that you're

spk_0 scared. It's okay. It's okay to say I'm scared and I'm still going to do it anyway. Yes and I like

spk_0 that. Okay. So last question. If you could go back in time and speak to 2019 Greg and give

spk_0 her some advice. What would you say? Well, I'd probably say to her is that you're going to go

spk_0 through something that's really, really, really hard and it's going to test your limits in every

spk_0 single way but that you are going to get through this Greg and that you have gifts to give the world

spk_0 and work that needs to be done and that if you can just take a deeper I think get through this

spk_0 that on the other side of this something better is going to present itself for you and it's going

spk_0 to be worth it. Greg, thank you. I have been waiting to do this for a long time. I appreciate your time.

spk_0 As always I appreciate your candor and transparency. I find you endlessly inspiring and thank you

spk_0 so much for sitting down with me again today. It was my absolute pleasure and I feel all the feels

spk_0 and you feel right back at you and I appreciate your friendship and support always.

spk_0 That was the founder of Counter Greg Renfrew. For more inspiring interviews with women like Greg,

spk_0 head on over to SecondLifePod.com where we have so many more for you to prove. If you like today's

spk_0 show please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and don't

spk_0 get to rate and review us. We love seeing spread the word on social and now you can tag us in your

spk_0 posts. We are at SecondLifePod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. We always want to know who you're

spk_0 interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your requests to hello at SecondLifePod.com or you

spk_0 can DM us on Instagram. I'm at Hillary Kerr. The show is at SecondLifePod. Our DMs are always open.

spk_0 I'm Hillary Kerr and you've been listening to SecondLife. This episode was produced by Hillary Kerr,

spk_0 Summer Hammeres and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Raven Yamamoto. Our editor is

spk_0 Natalia Perez. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California and our music

spk_0 is by Jonathan Leahy.

Gregg Renfrew Returns! The Founder of Beautycounter and Counter Is Back

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