True Crime
Forensics, Fiction, and the Fine Line Between Them: A Sit Down with Patricia Cornwell
In this captivating episode, hosts Ash and Alaina sit down with bestselling author Patricia Cornwell, renowned for her Scarpetta series. They explore the intersection of forensics and fiction, delving...
Forensics, Fiction, and the Fine Line Between Them: A Sit Down with Patricia Cornwell
True Crime •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
spk_0
Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash.
spk_0
And I'm Alaina.
spk_0
And this is a very special episode of Maldives.
spk_0
We got so excited during this interview that we forgot to ask our guests to do the end.
spk_0
I am because it was Patricia Cornwall.
spk_0
Oh, fuck.
spk_0
I am.
spk_0
So this interview was wild for me.
spk_0
spk_0
I was floating above us all during this.
spk_0
I wish that you guys, we do have some video for this.
spk_0
So I think we'll be able to post some stuff.
spk_0
Alaina was literally like,
spk_0
I was beaming.
spk_0
Floating.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I was being.
spk_0
Alaina has always been a huge fan of Patricia Cornwall.
spk_0
So it was really cool.
spk_0
I just wanted to sit back and watch it for the most part.
spk_0
I was like, I had a couple questions and there that I ended up deleting on our shared
spk_0
doc and just highlighted and was like, go to this one.
spk_0
I'm like, just keep going.
spk_0
I'm like, who got this?
spk_0
I'm like, go.
spk_0
It's true.
spk_0
I have been a fan of Patricia Cornwall.
spk_0
I mean, in case you don't know, Patricia Cornwall, you gotta get on it because she's
spk_0
fucking amazing.
spk_0
Yeah, honey.
spk_0
What do you know?
spk_0
She's sold over 120 million books, which is insane.
spk_0
She's an author of nearly 50 books.
spk_0
It's been like, and a lot of people know her for the Scarpetta series.
spk_0
There's like almost 30 books in that one.
spk_0
Wow.
spk_0
It's an amazing series.
spk_0
It follows a medical examiner, K-Scarpetta, who's just,
spk_0
she was my hero growing up.
spk_0
Like, I wanted to be K-Scarpetta.
spk_0
And of her.
spk_0
I honestly, that was the dream.
spk_0
I fucking love her.
spk_0
She does like, thriller, but it's like really, like science-based.
spk_0
And it's got like a, some of her books have some horror elements in there.
spk_0
Like, she's really good at balancing and all.
spk_0
She even, in one of them, she goes to the actual body farm in the book.
spk_0
Like, and she went to the body farm.
spk_0
It's so funny.
spk_0
I remember you, by the way.
spk_0
I remember you telling me about that.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And I was like, because I was fascinated by the body farm.
spk_0
So when that came out, I was like, let's go, girls.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
But she's amazing.
spk_0
I have been reading her books since I was like 13 or 14.
spk_0
I mean, I started, I think her first book maybe came on like 1990.
spk_0
Wow.
spk_0
I think, which I was, I didn't read it at that point, because I was five.
spk_0
But yeah, I was reading it, you know, 10 years later, for sure.
spk_0
Like eight years later.
spk_0
And I've read every single one of them, I think,
spk_0
and up till like the last, I think I've missed the last three.
spk_0
I have to catch up on them.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
But John buys me any time a new book comes out by Patricia Cornwall.
spk_0
He knows he's going to run out and grab it.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And get it for me.
spk_0
I have, I have a whole, I mean, I have an almost an entire bookshelf dedicated purely
spk_0
to Patricia Cornwall.
spk_0
I can attest to that.
spk_0
She's my girl.
spk_0
I remember when I was doing, I did a paper on Jack the Ripper and like,
spk_0
yeah, freshman year, and you gave me Portrait of a Killer tomorrow.
spk_0
And I, that's a great book.
spk_0
Yes, it's so good.
spk_0
Because when she gets into something,
spk_0
she fucking gets into a super, super informing.
spk_0
And I always loved that about her too.
spk_0
I always felt like she, like super kindred that way.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Because she seems like someone who just like wants there.
spk_0
And she is, she like confirmed that for us in the interview.
spk_0
She is that person that just when she gets hyper focused on something,
spk_0
she's just going to go learn to everything about it down the whole.
spk_0
And she was so much fun.
spk_0
You guys are for short kindred.
spk_0
Maybe there was a connection there.
spk_0
I love, I said, I love watching.
spk_0
I love it.
spk_0
It was great.
spk_0
We became best friends during this interview.
spk_0
We're besties for life, for me in Patricia.
spk_0
Yeah, in about five seconds, you'll hear us both get in,
spk_0
in bite into our home.
spk_0
Hell yeah.
spk_0
And I intend to do it.
spk_0
So Patricia can't wait to see their brother.
spk_0
This interview was awesome.
spk_0
We hope you guys love it.
spk_0
It was really interesting.
spk_0
She's a fascinating lady.
spk_0
And just another fucking amazing author that I got to talk to because of you guys.
spk_0
So yeah.
spk_0
So without further ado, enjoy Patricia going well.
spk_0
So Patricia, thank you so much for coming on morbid.
spk_0
This is massive for me.
spk_0
I'm freaking out inside.
spk_0
So Patricia, you worked for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner for six years in Richmond.
spk_0
In your early career in the Medical Examiner's office, what shaped the creation of K-Scarpeta
spk_0
during those years?
spk_0
Well, let me tell you a little morbid secret.
spk_0
I love that.
spk_0
The people think that I happen to be working in the Medical Examiner's office,
spk_0
or shall we just say the morgue, and that out of that, I got ideas for writing books.
spk_0
That's not at all what happened.
spk_0
When I graduated from college back in the Stone Age, and I was an English major,
spk_0
and I knew the only thing I seemed to do halfway,
spk_0
decently was writing.
spk_0
So I managed to get a menial job at the newspaper, the Charlotte Observer,
spk_0
and I worked my way up to being a reporter, and they put me on the police beat.
spk_0
That was my first introduction to crime, you know, going to homicide scenes and doing this sort of
spk_0
stuff. And then at that time, I was married to my former English professor, and he wanted to move
spk_0
to Richmond, Virginia, to go to seminary.
spk_0
And so I had to leave my journalism job.
spk_0
I won't go into all the boring details, but suffice it to say.
spk_0
That at one point I thought to myself, what am I going to do with my life?
spk_0
And I knew I was interested in crime, and I wanted to write books, so I thought I'd put the two
spk_0
together. But the one thing I didn't know about is what happens to the body when they
spk_0
whisk it away from the crime scene. I knew it went to a morgue somewhere.
spk_0
I knew there were forensic pathologists who looked at the body, but back in that this was back in
spk_0
the 1980s, back in those days, that kind of information wasn't readily available.
spk_0
So in Richmond, I got an appointment to go to the medical examiner's office, and that's where I met
spk_0
Dr. Marcel Fierro, who was one of the first, I think, five women forensic pathologists in the
spk_0
country. Wow. That's awesome.
spk_0
And I mean, how lucky was I? I didn't even know there were women medical examiners, and this is
spk_0
the one I meet. She gave me a tour of the autopsy suite, you know, the three stainless steel
spk_0
tables that are attached to the floor and the huge cooler that she opened in the filthy smelling
spk_0
dead smelly, the conversation rolls out like a horror movie, and you know, whoosh, you see
spk_0
the body bags in there. And so that was my first taste of all this, and I went back to do more
spk_0
research. And finally, I've always, I tell everybody this, if you want to find out things, make
spk_0
yourself useful. So I said, well, do to be helpful here. I started doing technical writing,
spk_0
and then they became computerized, and I ended up taking over their computer system.
spk_0
But I'd go in the morgue every morning, and I would watch the autopsy, and I would take the notes
spk_0
for the doctors, or I'd hang up bloody clothing. I'd put organs and scales and write down the
spk_0
weights, and do, you know, I was the pill counter, you know, when your prescription drugs came in,
spk_0
I'm the dummy who just gets to, one, two, three, he might have taken a little bit too much of his
spk_0
fentanyl. I know it's not funny, but you know, but it was all to write murder mysteries. That's why
spk_0
I wanted to learn this. It was, and I just was so fascinated, all the forensic labs were upstairs,
spk_0
and so I could go up to toxicology, or fingerprints are back in the day's serology, which now DNA.
spk_0
And that is why my books have so much of that kind of detail, because I had a six-year
spk_0
full-time education in it, and then continue to learn it ever since. So my medical examiner experience
spk_0
is that I really ended up there six years, because every book I wrote was, nobody wanted.
spk_0
I wrote Post-Mortem was the fourth attempt. That's why I'm so mean.
spk_0
By then, I thought it was going to be my Post-Mortem, because I was very dejected and unbelievably,
spk_0
you know, at that age, when you're 20s and you're 20s, it's such a hard time because you're trying
spk_0
to figure who you are talking about it. You know, do we have a purpose, and when I kept failing,
spk_0
at what I thought was my only purpose, which is to write, it was a very dark time,
spk_0
but I will tell all of those who, everyone who listens to this, who gets discouraged,
spk_0
the thing about it is, if I'd gotten my way in my first murder mystery, been published,
spk_0
number one, it would have ruined my career, because it was really not good. And two, I would have
spk_0
thought I knew enough, and I didn't need to be at the medical examiner's office anymore.
spk_0
And I needed to be there a long time to walk around and scarpella shoes.
spk_0
All right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
spk_0
I love that. That's wild. I still can't believe that you had trouble getting published at first.
spk_0
It's... I wrote... It was a book a year. The first year I was there was one book called
spk_0
Stick Doll Murders, and then the second one was Murder in the Lost Hundred. Oh, that sounds spooky.
spk_0
And then the third one was called The Queen's Pond. And...
spk_0
I finally called up the same editor who rejected me three times. You're not supposed to do that,
spk_0
by the way. And I said, I know I'm not supposed to call you on the phone. I said,
spk_0
but should I quit? Oh, my God.
spk_0
Said, no, I don't think you should quit. But I said, well, what am I doing wrong?
spk_0
And she said, well, you work in a medical examiner's office, don't you? And I said, yes, I do now.
spk_0
And she said, well, the stuff that you're writing about is that what you see every day?
spk_0
And I said, I never see any of what I just what I write about. I mean, because I'm writing about
spk_0
buried treasure and archeology digs that go wrong. And you know, all of the... It was somewhere like
spk_0
Agatha Christie meets autopsies. And it didn't work. It was a little... It was a hybrid.
spk_0
Yeah. And she said, and also your best character is this woman medical examiner named Dr. Scarpetta.
spk_0
She was a minor character in the first three books. And she said, well, why don't you write from
spk_0
her point of view? I'd like to know what she thinks about. Oh, my God. I don't know if I can do that.
spk_0
And if I show people what I really see and I let that invade my imagination,
spk_0
I don't know if I can survive it because now I'm going down every morning and seeing horrors on
spk_0
the tables. Someone struck by lightning. Someone killed by a wild animal. Somebody who's been raped and
spk_0
murdered. I could... I mean, I've seen thousands and thousands of cases over the years. And by that
spk_0
time, there were serial murders that were had just started in Richmond. Oh, yeah. This was 1987.
spk_0
The South Side Strangling cases. And they were going... They began while I was working at the
spk_0
M.E.'s office. And I'm telling you, I was terrified. Yeah. That's when I bought my first gun and took
spk_0
shooting lessons. I put a deadbolt on my bedroom door. I was... I had got... I was divorced at that
spk_0
time. So I was living alone. And I thought to myself... And I watched Dr. Fierro work in these cases.
spk_0
She'd come home. She'd go... She'd get called out in the middle of the night. And... Oh, here's a
spk_0
terrible story. One of the early victims in the South Side Strangling cases was a woman neurosurgeon
spk_0
who was finishing her residency at the Medical College of Virginia right down the road from the M.E.'s
spk_0
office. This lovely young woman. And here's the weird thing. A year earlier, I'd been over to
spk_0
that Medical College with Dr. Fierro. She was doing a lab. What they call a wet lab where you take
spk_0
in this case, brain said it'd been fixed and formal. And I can tell you guys, since you have a
spk_0
show named Morbid, this is your fault. Or a fault that you're getting all this, okay? Well,
spk_0
if you're happy now. Yeah. You want a brain cutting around all the neuro pathology,
spk_0
students, and neurosurgeon residents. And there was this one woman in a lab code on the other
spk_0
side of the room. Young woman with long red hair. And I was feeling so ill at ease because I'm
spk_0
this stupid person. It was an English major. I'm not a med student. I have three books that nobody's
spk_0
wanted. And I'm still trying. And I was just... I don't know. I was having an uncomfortable moment.
spk_0
And I felt somebody looking at me. I looked across the room and the red-headed woman was staring at
spk_0
me. And she smiled. She says, warm like, hello, you're fine here. That's all it takes,
spk_0
some kind of... That was the woman who was murdered. And when that happened a year later,
spk_0
I've never forgotten her looking at me. And then I'm looking at her and crime-seeing photographs
spk_0
when I'm out with the detective. Oh, that's awful. Yes. I can't imagine that. And so I'm saying to myself,
spk_0
how do I write about something like this without actually adding to the problem,
spk_0
or self-writing what we should condemn? And I figured out, you know what? If I'm going to show you
spk_0
the real thing, then damn it. I'm going to tell you the truth. Yeah. I'm going to do it through
spk_0
Scarpetta's point of view because that is the only way really that I can get away with it.
spk_0
Because she's not celebrating it at all. She fixed it. She's doing a job. It's not so not going to lie
spk_0
to you and say, oh, it didn't hurt very much. Nope. She's going to say, this was awful.
spk_0
Great. That's what I love about her. That's my very long story for how that all happened.
spk_0
Now you don't have to read my memoir. That comes. We still will. It is spring. Oh, I'm excited for
spk_0
that. That's awesome. I'll read it anyways. So that's when you may have to come visit me in person.
spk_0
Oh, well, absolutely. We're in. Yeah. Because you're welcome back anytime. I can't wait to hear more
spk_0
about this. And actually, like I love hearing these stories because I worked as an autopsy technician
spk_0
in Boston. No. Yeah. For I think five years actually. That's really called in my old, my old
spk_0
business called bearing the lead. Yeah. Because I didn't know I was talking to a confederate here
spk_0
where we can compare notes. Yeah. As soon as I heard you talk about like the wet, you know,
spk_0
wet specimens and the brain cutting. The brain cutting. I was like, no, it's a brain cutting.
spk_0
You know what? You never forget that smell of formal and roll. No, you know, and for malder
spk_0
hide, which I hate even worse, at least the diluted stuff doesn't, but that was terrible. Yeah.
spk_0
And you can taste it too. It's awful. Like foods would taste like it later. And so you understand
spk_0
when I write about that when Scarpetta comes home at the end of a long day at the morgue that she,
spk_0
when she goes in the shower or she showers in her office before she goes home and appreciates that.
spk_0
But she washes up inside her nose. Yeah. You have to. And gargles. Yeah. Because the molecules of
spk_0
the nasty stuff are in the air and when you're smelling it, it's because it's the molecules of
spk_0
lovely things called putrefaction. Yeah. And that's what you're smelling. Yeah. It's all
spk_0
molecular. And so she scrubbed dub-dubs because I feel you feel I remember when the first
spk_0
started smelling that stuff, I would start imagining or smelled it like right when I was getting
spk_0
right to eat something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very surprised to I think like one of the first
spk_0
autopsies that I was part of. I went to dinner later that night with my husband. And the first bite
spk_0
I took I was like, why do I feel like this smells like what I was just in? And he was like, that is
spk_0
horrifying. It's a memory because your sense of smell is really your most powerful. Yeah.
spk_0
Sense. It blew my my my my my my neuroscientist partner Stacy could tell you all the reasons why
spk_0
that's the case. But that's why smells the olifactory experience is so powerful. And in fact,
spk_0
you can smell something and it can create that it triggers a memory that will actually make you feel
spk_0
the way you did when you smelled it before. Like I went to and when I was in I took a tour. I went
spk_0
to a drove across Austria way back in the early 90s. And one of the things I wanted to see when I was
spk_0
there was the Mothehausen death camp. From the concentration camp. I read a book about it and I
spk_0
thought I want Scarpetta. I want her to see this through me. I want to see the reality of one of
spk_0
these horrible places. And when I was walking through one of the barracks where they'd kept these
spk_0
poor the Jewish prisoners that they were so merciless too. I thought I smelled the inside of a
spk_0
cooler. And you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a very old, old death. So powerfully
spk_0
that I said to the person I was with I have to leave. That was all just really hallucination.
spk_0
Yeah, obviously. But it was remembered odor. And you know this may sound gross to people but
spk_0
you need to understand why all this is important to human biology. We are programmed to be repelled
spk_0
by things that we should stay away from. Absolutely. So you know if the whole colony was wiped out
spk_0
by a plague and you smell that in the woods when you're in the primitive age you woe the other way.
spk_0
You get the hell out of that. What happened to you? Yeah. It just comes down to survival.
spk_0
Absolutely. And all of this is all about survival. Our fear are wanting to read scary stories
spk_0
is all about our survival instinct. Yep. It got the fighter flight going. Since you worked in a
spk_0
morgue then when in my opening scene in sharp force when Scarpet is working on a floater
spk_0
in the autopsy suite some guy poor guy that's been in the river for a while then you know what
spk_0
that's like that's a unique experience for sure. That is a very unique experience, a very unique smell
spk_0
and a very unique way of going about an autopsy. It's totally different which is crazy. And that'll
spk_0
stay with you that image for sure. Well you know I was coming this is a I think a wonderful way
spk_0
to think about one day when I was working at the medical examiner's office and we had such a case
spk_0
a man who had been out fishing with his young boy in the James River in Richmond. And this
spk_0
was a hot summer day and he and we don't know why nobody knew why but he ended up going overboard
spk_0
and his body wasn't found for a while. So when it came to the our office it was very
spk_0
you know very very decomposed and and it was really really awful. I mean it would really kind of
spk_0
would go through the whole building to be honest. Oh yeah. And so I was in staff meeting and I was
spk_0
getting ready to go downstairs with Dr. Fierro to scribe while she did her cases and she was going to
spk_0
do that one because she didn't nothing faced her. Well why it ride an elevator down and I said
spk_0
you know sometimes I really don't know how you stand this. I don't know how you do it.
spk_0
And she looked at me and she said I just try to imagine him before he got here.
spk_0
And so suddenly I saw this man on a beautiful summer day with his boy fishing you know with his
spk_0
baseball cap and the white sparkling on the water and everything's happy. And he that's what I tried
spk_0
to think when I was actually looking at what she was doing after that and and I thought that
spk_0
that is how we should do it because we don't want to objectify human beings. I mean what we leave
spk_0
behind is not pretty but we but if we were around to see it we would be embarrassed. Yeah we'd say
spk_0
we'd apologize sorry I'm such a mess. Yeah it's so true and it makes you feel like you have a
spk_0
purpose when you think of them that way before they got on the table there's a purpose to the whole
spk_0
thing instead of just meaningless you know clinical way of looking at it. Like when I one of the
spk_0
things I always say when I worked at the morgue was it always like little things would get me during
spk_0
an autopsy like somebody having nail polish on I was like you didn't know that that was the nail
spk_0
polish you would be wearing forever like that that was the last time you were going to put on nail
spk_0
polish or if they had their hair in a braid or something I was always like wow you just didn't know
spk_0
that that was your last hairstyle. Right and I never wanted to cut those hair styles. I was always
spk_0
careful to not cut the braid off if I was doing a neuro case and though you have to make it
spk_0
personal you can't look at it just dead pin because it gets you have to have the ability to have
spk_0
some empathy and you imagine that person on the table is if it were your mother or somebody
spk_0
used deeply care about if it's you yeah and and I do and I do it one I'm so lucky that I was around
spk_0
the right kind of people when I was learning all this but most of all Dr. Fiero and that she used to
spk_0
there was one thing she would never tolerate in her autopsy suite you so much she showed even one
spk_0
I odour of disrespect towards those cases in there and you'll ask his throne. Yeah.
spk_0
She's out. Yeah. That should be yeah because it keeps you it keeps you on task to sit there you have
spk_0
to keep reminding yourself like this is somebody somebody. Mm-hmm. So I have to be as well you know
spk_0
if I could be interesting thing in some cultures there is a belief that when you die you're
spk_0
consciousness your spirit whatever you want to call it hovers around the body for a while so
spk_0
and in particular primitive cultures they they would not do anything to anybody they leave
spk_0
them for a while even in Italy you I think it's you've got to wait about 24 hours before you do
spk_0
an autopsy. Yeah. That makes sense. And the and it's because of this of not being sure when that
spk_0
transition is being made and trying to be as respectful as you can. Yeah. Absolutely.
spk_0
I always just think don't ever talk around a dead person don't say anything in front of them you
spk_0
wouldn't say if they were still alive and yeah and then you're safe. Yeah exactly. That makes
spk_0
sense. It's so true. Maybe their ghost won't bother you as much as when you won't creak in the
spk_0
walls and when someone walking on your floor board late at night. Yeah. I feel like they fall
spk_0
you home. Well and with all your experience I know that sometimes I find myself nitpicking and
spk_0
like pop culture like books movies TV about crime scenes are autopsies if they get it wrong.
spk_0
Are there things that drive you crazy that happen a lot in like pop culture for autopsies and
spk_0
crime scenes? Well I think one thing is when when somebody acts like they have a bedside manner
spk_0
in the morgue it's ridiculous. I mean I'm respectful you know that but you're not saying oh now
spk_0
this won't hurt very much. And of course the other thing is now I understand why TV has to do
spk_0
this I mean because they're visual but like if you you've seen the shows like CSI where they have
spk_0
on the table so you can see the dead person's face. Yeah well never. Of course that isn't done but
spk_0
I I understand my attitude is they're translating and making a story that works for their medium
spk_0
and how to make it palatable. And a lot of what they do they don't have a whole lot of choice
spk_0
because of what they're doing but there are I can't think of anything right off the bat but there
spk_0
are there are so many times where I've seen things where I go you know you didn't even try to get
spk_0
that right. That's me too. Those are the ones that there's no way just somebody would just say
spk_0
that or that they would do what you just did or I know when they touch things with no gloves on.
spk_0
Yeah. Oh that makes me crazy. And you know it's or then no masks and why because I get it you don't
spk_0
want the the actress covering her face all the time. Mm-hmm. That's honestly you the way people
spk_0
are bundled up to tie vect these days they really do look like a house under construction or wrapped up.
spk_0
Yes. And and so that's not a good look if you're a movie star. No. Yeah. Doesn't know why
spk_0
translate. The gloves thing always drives me nuts though because I was always like no you were like
spk_0
at least like three or four pairs of gloves so you can keep ripping them off. It's so funny.
spk_0
Well I remember on one of the early scripts for the Scarpeta movie that never got made and by
spk_0
the way we do have a show that will be a spring but I remember that the writer had Scarpeta
spk_0
stopping at a in the middle of a terrible part of town at you know for a crime scene on her way
spk_0
home from something else. She goes in she whips out her her makeup bag zips it open gets a pair
spk_0
of tweezers out and then goes and collects a piece of evidence with it. And I said what is it
spk_0
a bill like I'm sorry I understand. I like where did that come from. Well she also was driving a
spk_0
red test slow electric car and I thought way back in the day when I thought she not gonna take
spk_0
any chance of that. I'm like going bad. I'm gonna go dead where she's parked right now.
spk_0
Mm-hmm absolutely not. Yeah. Never put a little electric car. That's the way that's right.
spk_0
You don't see as much of that anymore though people really truly I know because I'm dealing with
spk_0
screenwriters right now from the Scarpeta show and and they're much more well versed in all this
spk_0
the writers are than they used to be and there's also so much more available. Yeah even Google.
spk_0
Yeah so true. I and you know there's so much more that you can find out for yourself now.
spk_0
Oh definitely. And speaking of the Scarpeta television series because I've been waiting for
spk_0
so long like I started reading your books I'm 39 I started reading your books when I think I was
spk_0
like 13 or 14 because I was super into it I read post mortem first I went all the way through
spk_0
my husband will buy me each new book whenever it comes out it's like the present he gets very nice
spk_0
were you telling my thank you I will love that but I've been waiting for this I've been really
spk_0
excited to see it on any screen really and one thing that made me so excited was hearing that
spk_0
Bobby Canavale is playing marina. I feel like that is the most perfect casting choice.
spk_0
I I I I told everybody I said and you really expect that he and Dr. Scarpeta are not gonna have
spk_0
an affair now that I now that she knows he looks like that honestly she would say to me um
spk_0
well you didn't tell me he looks like that the way you describe him in your books you can see why
spk_0
I didn't have an affair with him so anyway yes I think and and I can assure you because I have seen
spk_0
you know the eight episodes um that that you will be seeing next year in the spring and um
spk_0
he's fabulous oh I believe in the scenes with him and Nicole Kidman and Jamie Lee Curtis I mean
spk_0
it's all the you couldn't ask for a more powerful cast they've done a great job I think people
spk_0
are gonna have fun I mean don't expect it to be identical to my books because it can't possibly be
spk_0
no um because it's TV but but the other thing is um if you think about my books for the most part
spk_0
there are a few that I wrote from what we call the third person point of view but they're always
spk_0
from Scarpeta's perspective I mean almost all of them especially the ones now so if you're only
spk_0
seeing what she's seeing the screenwriters have to create a lot of scenes that aren't in my books
spk_0
yeah like what happens when arena goes home and has had a squabble with Dorothy or what's Lucy doing
spk_0
in the guest cottage um you know so those things and that's kind of fun because you're not only
spk_0
getting my story but you're getting something new yeah absolutely I hope I hope you and everyone
spk_0
will have lots of fun with it oh I'm sure I will yeah I'm so excited very excited I think we'll
spk_0
have a big watch party yeah for sure good you mentioned working with screenwriters are you able
spk_0
to write on it at all or have you been able to I haven't done any writing but I do review all the
spk_0
scripts and nice um you know I my my big thing is the techniques and the science and all that
spk_0
making sure helping with that is best I can um I've you know if they occasionally they'll ask me to
spk_0
sit in on the writer's room if they have some questions um and also just because I like to
spk_0
encourage them I loved encourage there a lot of them are very young and um if that that's at least
spk_0
I can do at this stage because I know what it feels like exactly I know what it feels like to get
spk_0
started of course they're doing a pretty good job getting started since they're on such a major show
spk_0
but yeah it's not exactly a small potato is to start with when you're writing something for
spk_0
definitely not three Oscar-winning actors you know Jamie and Nicole and um also Ariana de
spk_0
Bose who plays oh my god oh awesome I just wanted to say right let's go this is an iconic cast
spk_0
it really is we're so excited uh something else we're obviously so excited for is sharp force which
spk_0
if you're listening to this uh the day it premieres it will come out sharp force will come out
spk_0
tomorrow October 7th so while writing sharp force what was the most bizarre piece of research
spk_0
that you did where you kind of thought if somebody saw this I'd be in a lot of trouble well that's
spk_0
um truth is if if anybody saw most of what I'm doing I'd probably be in trouble I keep saying
spk_0
for knock on my door because of the kind of stuff I I search on the end we can really tell you
spk_0
tell me time can you be asking about this kind of weapon yeah or how long it would take to kill
spk_0
somebody yeah before somebody decides they better check out your end reproach yeah what's going on
spk_0
but the the hologram part of it you know that it was it's that was very creepy to research the
spk_0
notion that that you can create a hologram well let's just back up and say what is the genesis of
spk_0
this ghosts you know we've heard about ghosts all our life and you know people who've seen them
spk_0
maybe you have or you've had a weird experience that defines defies any sort of explanation
spk_0
and so I thought what tech I'm always interested in what technology could supply an answer or an
spk_0
explanation for things we see that we don't understand whether it's bigfoot a quote flying saucer
spk_0
or in this case a ghost and so I thought is there technology that could create ghosts and the answer
spk_0
is yes holographic technology combined with highly highly technical drone technology that you know
spk_0
can be a flying projector so to speak and and understanding that electromagnetic energy isn't always
spk_0
light waves it can also be radio waves that can go right through your bedroom wall so the idea
spk_0
that you could wake up in the middle of the night with this horrible phantom creature hovering
spk_0
over your bed looking like something from the 1800s with red glowing eyes and saying yes
spk_0
becomes you death becomes you death becomes you and creepy music playing the idea that that could
spk_0
really happen is true yeah that's the thing closer to it than ever I know we really are the hologram
spk_0
can't kill you however this serial killer who uses this for stalking he does it before he shows up
spk_0
and so that was eerie technology to be sort of digging into and the old psychiatric hospital mercy
spk_0
island you know I love creepy places creepy places are a character the boy yeah anyone anyone with
spk_0
the show called morbid certainly knows that yeah and then of course when she's driving home in the
spk_0
snowy kind of fog and she hears this weird animal howling coming from the woods on her property
spk_0
and then it turns out when they do voice analysis the vocalization of it does not seem to belong to
spk_0
any animal on this planet that is horrifying to me yeah I think chilling for sure that alone would
spk_0
have met I love that I think that is so I don't know how she stays in her house I don't either
spk_0
no every time I have a scene I mean I'm working on a new one now and Scarpet is in her house and
spk_0
it's a horrible thunderstorm and the power and a transformers blown somewhere kaboom and the power
spk_0
goes out and all the security clamors are dark and I'm thinking why are you staying in this place
spk_0
get out what are you doing girl I'm in nice little condo with a door man yeah seriously maybe like
spk_0
one of the tallest floors you can get yes survival instinct let's go she's never she never really
spk_0
scared she just takes it in stride she's always forgetting her gun yeah she never runs away though
spk_0
she's never running I knew I left it behind this guy standing there in front of the greenhouse oh boy
spk_0
we've all been there yeah you know it happens and you know what after like more than 30 years of
spk_0
writing scarpetta how are you able to keep her evolving because you really do keep her evolving but
spk_0
but still maintaining what a bad ass she is like the core of what she is you know it's it's really
spk_0
important that I write stories that are set in the real world and the real world that we live in now
spk_0
which is changing at the speed of light yeah and it's a very hard world to set a murder a crime novel
spk_0
in because there's cameras everywhere I mean there's so much technology that if you're not careful
spk_0
the book would be one page long yeah it's so true because we already know who did it you know
spk_0
we we tried that we found their signal bouncing off that cell tower and then and then we got
spk_0
you know one cell DNA and figured out who did whatever so a lot of people aren't choosing
spk_0
to set thrillers and they they set them in the 80s and the 90s for that reason I insist on
spk_0
letting scarpetta in fact making her live in the same world we do and then and dealing with it
spk_0
accordingly and so by having that is my focus you know I'm going to come up with a different idea
spk_0
for every book because you know if you're just watching what's going on in society and I have to
spk_0
know what all the latest technologies are not only to use them but to defeat them and so that if I
spk_0
want a scene you know for example if I don't want your phone picked up no signal then then I might
spk_0
have you use a Faraday bag like this this is a real thing you put your phone in this and you cannot
spk_0
receive signals and they will not transmit signals and that's the kind of technology they use and
spk_0
what are called skiffs you know where you go over top secret information they use what's called
spk_0
Faraday cages or Faraday bags that block out all-electro magnetic signals like if you go to visit
spk_0
some of the various buildings at the FBI Academy in Quantico they will take your phone the minute
spk_0
you walk into certain buildings and it gets put in a metal locker that's basically a Faraday cage
spk_0
because your phone can be used to spy yeah yeah absolutely with Wi-Fi technology we're open channels
spk_0
for something to hack into it and as you know from having worked in a medical examiner's office
spk_0
the big threat these days are our phones and people going in and filming and photographing
spk_0
yeah and then next you know it's the bodies all over the internet yeah we've seen we've seen
spk_0
that every time there's a huge case that's all over the news oh yeah it's such a problem and it
spk_0
becomes more and more of a problem as these phones get like smaller and thinner and have more
spk_0
technology on them and things you can hide it's crazy and it's also now we also have to worry
spk_0
about photographs being posted out there that aren't even real they're fake that's the people believe
spk_0
that is the injury somebody had and it's completely made up so that these are all these are all
spk_0
part of the modern challenges that Scarpetta lives with but but what I try to do is not get too bogged
spk_0
down and all that because people don't it's withering after a while and people want they want
spk_0
something that makes them feel yeah for sure definitely the haunted old hospital where there's a burial
spk_0
ground where there's suspicion about how some of those people in the asylum died hundreds of years ago
spk_0
you know you want these things that that really go to our core just like when you walk into
spk_0
Scarpetta's house you want to smell her wonderful food you want something good in the kitchen you
spk_0
want a lovely bottle of wine or whatever they're going to open and you know that's I try to make it
spk_0
a rich sensory experience for you both good and bad you really have to because that's one of the things
spk_0
I love about Scarpetta is that she's like a brilliant cook as well I love that she has those two
spk_0
parts of her because cooking is so creative and like you know emotional and grounded everybody can
spk_0
be friends when they're eating you know I I've had over the years I've had a lot of people ask me
spk_0
you think I mean to Scarpetta no dexter and if she met dexter I mean when she read him out
spk_0
and I said well listen I believe that he lives near her and I think they get together on foodie night
spk_0
I love the cues where she does her about a lot you know her flash dogs and her bourbon honey
spk_0
steaks on the grill and they and they discuss pasta and so I don't know if she knows what he does
spk_0
but I know she knows what he what he eats yeah for sure I think so they said a potluck and I think
spk_0
that they're buddies I'm sorry but I think they get along just fine oh I love that that's can
spk_0
and now that makes a great image in your head I know that person hadn't coming but you know natural
spk_0
causes she saw nothing this pasta is great though yeah so specifically for sharp force but honestly
spk_0
this can go with really any of your novels were there any scenes you've written that you've thought
spk_0
like hmm like this might be too far I should tone this down or or when you feel that way if you have
spk_0
do you just like lean further into it I don't feel that way about what I'm when I write these days
spk_0
because I'm really really careful of it but there were some books I wrote earlier
spk_0
particularly when I decided not to use carpetta as the point of view but to have it more what they
spk_0
call the omniscient point of view you know yeah third person which means you have to spend time
spk_0
with the killer yeah it's gonna show what the killer's doing or thinking and in my book book of
spk_0
the dead which ironically one of the biggest awards of all my books but but in my but there
spk_0
things I did in that book that I wouldn't do again and you know I mean this character that bad the
spk_0
evil person was into cannibalism and it was it was quite graphic it disturbingly so for me I mean
spk_0
I quit eating at my desk while I was writing that book but here's I actually had somebody I won't say
spk_0
who or where but there was a research facility where I was offered that they said would you like to
spk_0
cook some human flesh and see what that smells like and yeah no I would not thank you I do not
spk_0
need I will not go that far yeah for my my research like thank you for asking I mean I don't know
spk_0
what people think but I've been asked if I wanted to try the scalpel and do a why incision I said no
spk_0
never that's not for me to do I am I'm not a major thing too I'm I don't practice on a dead body
spk_0
no no no no I'm just I'm I'm an author no that's not for me to do you do it and I'll describe
spk_0
what you did yeah there you go yeah yeah like I can I can observe and still have all that I need to see
spk_0
but it's a good question because everybody should have certain boundaries yeah and um you know
spk_0
I don't want it's it's an in it's an alarm system that's built in me and actually I think my
spk_0
books are a little bit more gentle that way than they used to be um it will sound crazy but I try
spk_0
to kill people without it hurting too much I love that I love how beautiful I think that's
spk_0
the bad I just I just you know what I'm gonna get rid of you you have to be done in but yeah I'm
spk_0
not gonna drag this out just it won't be too terrible just go back to sleep and yeah you know
spk_0
you'll end up in some other book and you'll be fine yeah there you go well this batch of you here
spk_0
we'll see you later well that makes so much sense to me because um I've I've published two books
spk_0
and they're you know serial killer thrillers and they also have a female medical examiner that I
spk_0
kind of like got from my own experience um and I found this a challenge in my own books and I
spk_0
think you're so masterful at this in particular I'm curious to know how you managed to maintain such
spk_0
sharp in that unintended sharp accuracy forensically in your books like you really keep all of
spk_0
that so accurate and so grounded but you also you're welcome and you also keep that pace though in
spk_0
your books really tight and keep it really thrilling so I'm just wondering how you're able to
spk_0
maintain like how do you achieve that well fortunately because I started out actually learning
spk_0
from being in the actual environment like if I wanted to know what the scanning electron microscope
spk_0
would do with you know if if somebody used one of these little things a post it you to lift
spk_0
trace evidence off of you know to put that on the hand or whatever because things would hear to
spk_0
that very weak adhesive that then go up to the trace evidence lab and then you might see something
spk_0
on the scanning electron microscope is magnifying something a hundred thousand times maybe even a
spk_0
million times and and and when you learn about these technologies and and what they are and how it
spk_0
works and that for example a scanning electron microscope on earth is actually doing something very
spk_0
similar to what the web telescope does out in space where it's not only defining the morphology the
spk_0
shape of what you're looking at like a a jagged piece of dust might look like an asteroid when it's
spk_0
magnified that much with the with the microscope but but it's also telling you what something's made
spk_0
out of yeah it can tell you that an asteroid is made out of platinum it can tell you that
spk_0
this fleck of paint also has has traces of of lead that might mean it's old paint or there's a
spk_0
a little bit of asbestos or that there's many layers of paint meaning the car was painted over
spk_0
and over again multiple times and that will be a unique identifier if you find the car that hit that
spk_0
person the hit and run soon I mean yeah so if you've learned the fundamentals of these scientific
spk_0
applications then when you roll ahead 35 years that as long as you keep up with what's actually
spk_0
being used it's really not changed that much you you now have rapid DNA testing where you can put a
spk_0
swab in a little a little machine basically and in minutes it will give you a DNA profile well that
spk_0
was there was no such thing as that no definitely not getting started but it doesn't change the DNA
spk_0
science it's just what what it tells you is that it's so sensitive now that in some cases it's almost
spk_0
an obstruction because if you can walk through a room and leave one cell of DNA one skin cell that's
spk_0
going to give your profile what if that skin cell is from eight months ago oh yeah you're picking
spk_0
up all kinds of stuff yeah that is actually because it's so sensitive it's both good and it's bad
spk_0
yeah because it's also picking up all kinds of things that are interfering with what you're thinking
spk_0
so it's just if you learn you build on what you learn if you stop learning then one day the gap
spk_0
is too big and you can't catch up so what I say to everybody is whatever you're interested in
spk_0
and if you spent a lot of time in your early years getting proficient in it keep up with it
spk_0
yeah because you'll understand all the changes but you got to know the fundamentals first
spk_0
that's so true that is definitely you let that gap happen like what you said is totally correct
spk_0
because having to catch up on all that afterwards you're just going to be completely out of the galaxy
spk_0
with it there's no way you can catch up hot top sees are they're not done all that differently
spk_0
than they were back in the days of Michelangelo was you know doing it to learn more about what the
spk_0
human body looks like I mean so there are tech there are things you can use in modern times like
spk_0
scanning equipment you know they're the virtual autopsy which is you know done with a CT scan or
spk_0
like the military uses like the Baltimore Medical Examiner's office has one of those but you know
spk_0
for the most part I think autopsy's will just keep being done the way they've been done first of all
spk_0
as you know anybody that's worked in that system it is not Scarpetta has an unusually amazing
spk_0
budget she sure does always complaining about a budget but whatever she wants it's somehow magically
spk_0
there because what you need because I'm Santa Claus yeah I'll give it to you know we not only need
spk_0
that kind of microscope but we need one of these kinds too we're giving one just another million
spk_0
dollars yes fine to worry about it that's actually it's funny because when when I worked in the
spk_0
work I was shocked to find out that the things we used for as rib cutters were just like hedge
spk_0
clippers from Home Depot like they were the orange and dirty oh listen when I was when I worked in
spk_0
the morgue since the since the domain the main show was Dr. Fierro the woman who then became the
spk_0
first woman chief in Virginia she would bring in the knitting needles from her her in laws
spk_0
my god another and the mother-in-law because they all they have their tailions they all lived in
spk_0
the same house she bring in the knitting needles they didn't need anymore and she used them for
spk_0
billet bullet probes so she got the knitting needle you know put that here's the entrance let's
spk_0
say where that thing up it stops here no there you know especially in multiple gunshot wounds
spk_0
that's genius it worked fine yeah you can buy a bullet probe but but for x number hundreds of
spk_0
dollars and it's the same thing we when I was doing some research in the Charleston medical
spk_0
examiner's office in South Carolina this is this is my idea of having fun with a forensic pathologist
spk_0
on the lunch break we went shopping we went shopping to a restaurant supply store or the my god
spk_0
so huge pots so that when they're deep when they were you know when the skeletonized body stuff
spk_0
you know bodies are coming in when you want to clean the bones you you boil yeah well that takes
spk_0
a very big pot cauldron and so you can't get that in your regular place so that my treat my treat
spk_0
because I was making the big bucks I take them shopping I say you're first content any ladle you want
spk_0
and big hot any two cup steel measuring cup so that when you're seeing how some how much someone
spk_0
hamburgered ginger chest cavity I'm your person you're Santa Claus to all look at that
spk_0
now that's that is morbid Christmas yeah that is you need to come on morbid mori if you do see no
spk_0
way so like me anymore after here and just because now they're here I want a weirdo man no you came
spk_0
to the place you more our listeners will love you our listeners are called weirdos and factly
spk_0
well you know it's well I'll tell you the weirdest research I ever did oh and I don't recommend this
spk_0
for anyone but I really did want to know how long a bite mark if you bit somebody after they're
spk_0
dead how long does that bite mark if it's an indentation how long can you see that before it might
spk_0
fade well I didn't know any dead people that would want me to bite them not that I would be willing
spk_0
don't know any living ones including me who might agree to such a thing and wouldn't be the same
spk_0
because I'm gonna heal so I thought well what about a piece of chicken the dead you know raw chicken
spk_0
oh there you go so that's what I did I'd like just the bite marks with a piece of raw chicken and
spk_0
answered my question and then would very quickly wash my mouth off with the most powerful and
spk_0
a septic you know I was ex that's exactly what I was just gonna I was lawless of you
spk_0
anything for the research though yeah I would do it again I don't know why I didn't just get a pair
spk_0
a dentures or fatteness oh yeah oh we did that been smarter but you know what you're I'm a
spk_0
little bit slow on the takes I should have just there were many ways to simulate that without
spk_0
me putting my own silly little chip chops on it you would just get a bit of horrible
spk_0
disease from raw chicken me to get some salmonella all in a day's work right well what'd you find out
spk_0
I found out that they would fade a little bit in that if someone bites a dead chicken we probably
spk_0
configure out that that chicken was bitten with no other words it was rather worthless all right you
spk_0
know but you can say you did it worked for my purposes whatever I just was curious and you know
spk_0
what you have a good story now so I like that but you know that I was also the blood supplier when I
spk_0
would do when I would be filmed for like primetime live or various big shows and they wanted blood on
spk_0
the floor for something and and so I'd say yeah I might be right back and go my finger and go
spk_0
dripping blood everywhere oh my goodness just leave your DNA there we go you're welcome I mean
spk_0
that the if you have a copy of from potters field oh now here is a morbid factoid that hardly
spk_0
anybody knows oh I love that you have a the early hard copy of from potters field which which
spk_0
came out in the mid-90s on the cover there is a footprint and snow that has blood drips on it
spk_0
okay now I made that footprint and snow by buying an antique military boot we put fake snow out
spk_0
we put the footprint in it I picked my finger and blood my own blood and so I said hypothetically
spk_0
my DNA is on the cover of that book that is so that is my blood you're looking at because you
spk_0
blood you know nobody else had any blood handy so I said I got some I got a lot you took blood
spk_0
sweat and tears to the next level of that one yeah amazing
spk_0
switching gears a little bit here I want to talk about your characters a little bit and obviously
spk_0
you've been writing them for a while so do you feel like they kind of lead you to where they
spk_0
want to go sometimes at this point or do you feel totally in control writing them where they
spk_0
where they should be you know it's a funny thing I guess the best way to answer that is I would
spk_0
say it's a collaboration because I I think in terms of scenes you know so in sometimes I'll
spk_0
actually have a list of certain scenes that I want to do and and I kind of map out how to get
spk_0
her to that to wherever that scene is but sometimes she has ideas of a wrong and there are also times
spk_0
where where she and Marina are getting in the truck to head somewhere and I'm not really sure
spk_0
what they're going to find when they get there and I'm and I'll say to them not literally but I'm
spk_0
thinking I hope you know what you're doing because I'm throwing a big blank about where to go after
spk_0
this right they're driving long wishing they had a cigarette she went gum they're not listening to
spk_0
me no in fact you know when they go to the the food court after a hard day of work and terrible crime
spk_0
scene they they sit there in marino says you know it was like strump straight out of a Patricia corn
spk_0
well no you don't even know that you're in a novel I mean well do we know what we're in maybe we're
spk_0
in a novel maybe sometimes I feel that way it does feel that way I love that well there is the
spk_0
theory that we're living in a simulated universe and every once in a while it'll you'll be like is it
spk_0
true like sometimes things happen that you're like make sense yeah so how does it feel I have to ask
spk_0
this to have inspired literally like a generation of thriller slash crime writers particularly women
spk_0
specifically me good then I've done a good thing if I've inspired you you really have like you
spk_0
are the first person especially like a woman writer and writing about the things that I was so
spk_0
excited to learn about because I was always very interested in like the autopsy part now in your books
spk_0
is your may who is your main character my main character is dr. Ren Muller and what kind of doctor
spk_0
is she she's a forensic pathologist ah well now I'm gonna give you a I'll share a trade secret with
spk_0
you that we both write about the same thing is you know when I was getting started medical examiners
spk_0
had a very prescribed thing that they did and sometimes the forensic pathologist would go to a crime
spk_0
scene and back in those days it weren't really death investigators but in but you know they they
spk_0
had they they did their thing and they testified in court and that was and they taught and that was
spk_0
about it it's really these days boundaries are not quite so clear and I know a lot of forensic
spk_0
pathologists who've gone way over those boundaries you know what where they actually will get more
spk_0
involved in helping you reconstruct what happened to you know in a shooting or this um and I think
spk_0
that I think that we have permission to make our forensic pathologists a little bit more proactive
spk_0
absolutely especially since this is something most people don't know and I don't know if this is
spk_0
true in Massachusetts but I do know it's true and and um like the Los Angeles Corners office
spk_0
that a lot of forensic pathologists are also peace officers they were sworn police and they have to
spk_0
have a gun they have to know how to shoot it they carry a badge and they can arrest people yeah but
spk_0
they don't usually do it um and one of the reasons that their peace officers is very often these people
spk_0
they respond to scenes in very dangerous areas as you know absolutely my only thing I would say to you
spk_0
is you know you can let your person I you know maybe you already do but I think that you can
spk_0
have them more proactive because one of the things I would get frustrated with with writing about
spk_0
a medical examiner is is I want her to sit down with a family and talk to them in their home
spk_0
I want her to go somewhere I want her to do something I want her to get I want more drama yeah
spk_0
absolutely so I have really ramped up the drama I mean I have Scarpetta doing all kinds of things
spk_0
that she might you know maybe she wouldn't really do but it doesn't matter doesn't it make fun
spk_0
but I had to learn to not be too wedded to what my new was true and that it took me years um to get
spk_0
over working around the real environment all the time because I I feel like well you can't have
spk_0
her do that a medical examiner oh no she can't be a helicopter pilot no medical examiner could be
spk_0
a helicopter pilot she better make Lucy the helicopter pilot well if I were doing that again today
spk_0
I probably would have Scarpetta be a helicopter pilot because why not I have that she learned
spk_0
it in the military who knows what I would do yeah I would give her a very different background if I
spk_0
were starting this all over again I would have her more a little bit more dramatic more involved
spk_0
and stuff and then and I think that you can do that you know it's sort of like in Great Britain
spk_0
where they have what's called a police surgeon yeah that's really the old tradition is having a doctor
spk_0
that that assists with the police but that you know but they're actually kind of working more
spk_0
with the police than just something it's very separate for it yeah so I would say pull out all the
spk_0
stops baby hell yeah I love that's great advice I love that because I love having that because
spk_0
I think it's fun to say one of the things I love about case carpetta especially is that we get
spk_0
to see so much of her life like inside and outside of the morgue and I think she has so much
spk_0
agency outside of the morgue as well so that's why like her character has really always been
spk_0
my number one girl because I just really think she's such about us in and outside of what she does
spk_0
oh well listen if we if we did a laundry list of how many people she's had to kill yeah how many
spk_0
times someone's tried to kill her yeah um I don't think there's any human on the planet that's had so
spk_0
many near misses or so many dramatic moments has got doctor Scarpetta but considering she's been
spk_0
out there for 35 years I don't if she wants to carry her gun in her bulletproof kevlar briefcase
spk_0
that Lucy gave her that either way it's also fireproof and can sustain a microwave weapon true story
spk_0
I mean I have I have one in under my shelf over here what I love that so because when when I
spk_0
write about something like that then Stacy decides my partner decides that I should have a
spk_0
kevlar briefcase too and thinking that where might I carry that I love that I love that she's
spk_0
like you're said to she's like well you need one too you know what I order strange things if I
spk_0
have the characters wearing a gas mask and I've got to know what it feels like to put one of those
spk_0
on and so I order stuff and then I'm giving it away to somebody who would want such a strange thing
spk_0
so you're very tactile well I if I believe it then you'll believe it yeah I don't believe what I'm
spk_0
I don't believe what I'm saying because I really don't know the answer then then I just can't
spk_0
write about it with authority for sure so I try to I mean a lot of things you can just you can imagine
spk_0
you can fill in the blanks you don't have to try everything I certainly don't try you know being
spk_0
a serial killer don't do that yeah don't try not great advice great advice yeah if you take one
spk_0
thing away but I think there's there's never a substitution for witnessing something for yourself
spk_0
if you can yeah because you you will learn something you will be surprised by a detail you will
spk_0
never ever imagine I remember the first time I stood out on a launch pad for you know at a NASA
spk_0
site on Wallops Island in Virginia where they they brought fire rockets off all the time and I
spk_0
was taking out to this launch pad and it was very windy it's right on the ocean it's a stark
spk_0
barren landscape with all the scaffolding and I'm looking at it and I've seen pictures I know what
spk_0
it looks like but what I never knew is when the wind was blowing through the scaffolding it created
spk_0
this eerie music oh it's scary and it was like space music and I'm standing there and I'm thinking
spk_0
am I the only one hearing this right now and you never would have known that yeah no but it's just
spk_0
you get you get surprised and if you go to the if you see cases that come into the medical examiner's
spk_0
office the poignancy of like people and I'm so sorry to say it but people who have a baby die
spk_0
and then it's brought in and it's in the bassinet and that just goes right through you yeah you see that
spk_0
and or you find I'll never forget that this was a true case a real case in my early days at the
spk_0
mord where this woman had gone out to a bar and she's walking home along a highway around three o'clock
spk_0
in the morning you know drunk and she gets hit by a car and she ends up in our office she's on the
spk_0
table in the next morning and so the she the state troopers going through her stuff and he pulls
spk_0
a little slip of paper from a fortune cookie out of her wallet that clearly meant so much to her
spk_0
that she saved it wow and it said you will soon have an encounter that will change the course of
spk_0
your life wow I just got a little did you know that that encounter was a car on a dark highway yes
spk_0
and I'll never forget to look on the state troopers face he didn't know whether to laugh or to cry
spk_0
yeah wow that's true because it's so bizarre like what are the odds or the goofy teenage boy
spk_0
who thinks it's cool he's trying to impress some girl he's like 13 or 14 and this country boy
spk_0
standing up in the back of a pickup truck and they they went under an overpass and he hit his head
spk_0
oh he comes in and in his pocket is a denny can of old spice deodorant oh man and you can imagine
spk_0
that he is trying to smell nice for these girls he's trying to impress that he's shown on for
spk_0
that last moment of his life wow and these are sort of things that they're it's very they're so
spk_0
important for me to remember and to witness and because if you don't put the humanity into all this
spk_0
what we can joke all we want about morbidity but if you don't really tell it in the lap of life
spk_0
going on and those and the pain and the reality of all this if you don't recognize it at some level
spk_0
then it's really not worth telling the story nobody should want to read it either no it's so true
spk_0
and it all of that really reminds me of like you know the nail polish that I would see on people
spk_0
and be like that you just painted your nails and like had no idea what was going to come next and
spk_0
that that was it forever it's like those little things were the things that shocked me about
spk_0
my first few autopsies was how they like affected me it's very true I mean one of the I did a show
spk_0
that had to do with Princess Diana's death this was about 20 years ago a little over 20 years ago
spk_0
and I one of the people I interviewed was the the assistant the pathology assistant who was
spk_0
there for her autopsy oh wow and the the thing that I remembered so vividly is that she he said
spk_0
she had on turquoise toenail polish and it's just like that little thing and I you know I know
spk_0
everything else that he said you know about what he found and some of the injuries and all that
spk_0
but the two things that struck me the most were the turquoise toenail polish that she had on
spk_0
that she put on right before I guess she'd gone to the ritz or whatever in Paris and that
spk_0
I was told by somebody who saw her body that a lot of her fingers were broken oh wow and I can't
spk_0
vouch for that myself but but I suspect it's true because she and Dodie Alphide were not they
spk_0
weren't wearing seatbelts right in the back car and here's one of the main reasons you would
spk_0
wonder if it's really a conspiracy their deaths is if they'd had their seatbelts on they might not
spk_0
have died yeah but they didn't so when you bam hit that cement piling and that tunnel she's
spk_0
you're gonna go forward and something happens in plane crashes and people break their fingers
spk_0
from trying to it's a big impact yeah yeah that's like the first thing you do but it's so and
spk_0
and it's those details that humanize yeah and then you see this poor person um she might have been
spk_0
one of the most famous women in the world but it's the poignancy of those human details
spk_0
that grabs yeah not so much how much their heart weighed who cares yeah right it's like she's a mom
spk_0
she's a friend she's you know she's a woman she's just she's more than what she is on the table
spk_0
that was always the thing that we were always trying to maintain was this is more than just a body
spk_0
on the table this is somebody somebody well here's the thing if you don't see it is more than just a
spk_0
body on the table you may miss a very important clue that's that you shouldn't be in that more if you
spk_0
know I mean really truly because you know for example I remember this early case of a terrible
spk_0
sexual homicide uh young woman comes home and the the guy's hiding in her closet because he had a
spk_0
key he's a maintenance worker and she didn't I mean what and solve for a long time there's a horrible
spk_0
case that's terrifying um and we she he was with her all night long and she died about six o'clock
spk_0
the next morning and when her body came to the office we took it in the x-ray room this was in
spk_0
the early days when we were just starting to use lasers you to look for trace evidence on the body
spk_0
because some things will light up and you find them and so this was a new thing and we were in
spk_0
there using the laser going over her whole body looking for any evidence and it was remarked to
spk_0
be clean and the thing that I noticed is that that her legs were were so cleanly shaven that either
spk_0
they'd been waxed or she just shaved them and so I'm thinking well she she'd been out all day she
spk_0
came home late at night she didn't die until the next morning um she shouldn't look to smooth
spk_0
no that's why not I guarantee you this guy made her take a bath oh and yeah and and and and I
spk_0
guarantee that he made her shave her legs you know and maybe because that was part of his ritual
spk_0
and part of the control that he was exerting over her but if you're not really looking at that person
spk_0
you're not going to start thinking things like that and wondering you're not getting into them
spk_0
and trying to channel what might have happened to them exactly we owe them that
spk_0
as painful as that is we owe them our most sincere and devoted attention at that last moment
spk_0
I mean God knows what they've been through if we don't if they don't talk to us and we don't listen
spk_0
then nobody's going to so true so true is there a book that you've read recently that just like
spk_0
believe your mind this is a book I keep on my desk that blows my mind and I highly recommend it
spk_0
it's called the creative act being being by Rick Rubin and it's all about creativity and
spk_0
these little quotes and stuff like it's not unusual for science to catch up with art eventually
spk_0
oh look at that it's not usual for art to catch up to the spiritual but there but there's all
spk_0
stuff all kinds of things in here that if you are a creative no matter what kind of creative
spk_0
writer artist scientist podcaster that it it writes your perspective of of a creative process and of
spk_0
the things to be mindful of to make it work for you better that's so cool and the biggest thing
spk_0
it teaches you is to let go don't try force things I love that which I think we all need now that's
spk_0
great advice yeah everybody needs that but I you should order this yeah I keep it on my desk what
spk_0
was that called again I'm gonna write it down the creative act a way of being by Rick Rubin who's a
spk_0
music producer all right I want to order that yeah but look I mean I'm telling you that it's
spk_0
something that you will keep around I mean I like to read things there are novels that I'll look
spk_0
at because the writing is so amazing like Chris Whitaker oh yeah all the colors of the dark and he
spk_0
is really such a talent a brilliant writer and I like to look at what he does with words and how
spk_0
he sets the scene he's a young guy I'm still learning you know from people oh yeah I look I have
spk_0
a Hemingway novel that I've been rereading for decades called The Garden of Eden oh yeah and it's
spk_0
it was published posthumously and it's not the it's not the best example of his work but it's
spk_0
fascinating because the main character is a novelist and it's and you know it's really Hemingway's
spk_0
you know all three go but he describes what it's like to get up in the morning and walk and feel
spk_0
the cold stone under his bare feet as he's walking down to the end of this hotel hallway where he
spk_0
is writing in his room and looking out at the ocean and all these things and and he laments about
spk_0
how writing makes him selfish and he knows he's selfish because and anybody hello if you're
spk_0
and if this is what you're doing you kind of cut out you cut out everybody while you're doing it
spk_0
and those who live with us have to know that if we don't do that we won't get it done exactly
spk_0
but it does but I I was so grateful and continue to be in addition to some of the amazing ways
spk_0
Hemingway describes things but it's it's nice to read something that you that you relate to oh yeah
spk_0
I would go I know exactly what he's feeling I feel the same thing I may not be Hemingway but I know
spk_0
what he's feeling yeah that makes you feel seen for sure and honestly that's what a lot of your
spk_0
books did for me when I started working in the morgue it was like oh I get this I know that smell like
spk_0
I know how she's feeling here I know the frustration in this point and I find myself now still loving
spk_0
that kind of thing but also loving to read books about writers where the writer is a main character
spk_0
because I'm like yep I know that frustration now so it is it's so true when you can relate it's
spk_0
just such a richer story I feel like yes I I agree well you know I feel like that's really why
spk_0
we we are storytellers we want people to gather around and to make them feel included and to share
spk_0
an adventure with them yeah it's it's not supposed to be this isolated experience where oh look
spk_0
at what I did now tell me how good I am no in fact if you really do a good job as a writer people
spk_0
shouldn't be all that conscious of your writing what they should see is what you're showing them
spk_0
yes they should woof you know that scene you're taking them on a journey it's not a book it's a
spk_0
plane ticket it's a ticket to ride it's a it's a it's a voyage all right we want to take places that
spk_0
you know that you're your medical examiner in mind we want them to take people places that they
spk_0
don't usually get to go and medical examiner facilities are really that way more than they used
spk_0
to be because ever since covid in particular many of these places are very closed they don't want
spk_0
anybody coming in they're worried about leaks they're worried about diseases they're worried about
spk_0
lawsuits they're worried about everything oh yeah covid was a wild time in the work I was working
spk_0
in the morgue during covid it was a it was a sight to see what the lane would come home yeah we had
spk_0
different you know the protocols for that went crazy I mean I needed to but it was in particular
spk_0
doing neuro cases doing a brain cutting we had to like build a box over the person's head and then
spk_0
use our arms in like full you know gear to do it in the box if you go to Johnson Space Center and
spk_0
you want to touch a moon rock it's like they do his tank I think it's filled with nitrogen and they
spk_0
have the gloves build and you have to manipulate it with the it's called gloves yeah that's all
spk_0
we did with the brain cutting that so you just you became an astronaut yeah way that I didn't even know
spk_0
where there you go look at me I can add it to my resume doing all kinds of things well you know
spk_0
that's an interesting thing that you could describe because we hope that covid doesn't come back but
spk_0
you could have you could have anything that is hazardous yeah toxic possibility radiation poisons
spk_0
anything where you have to implement those kind of protocols yeah and the nice thing is you know
spk_0
exactly how it works oh yeah it was it's so true I could describe that to a tea you could come up
spk_0
with almost anything where you I mean you could have a big piece of the International Space Station
spk_0
that crashes down to earth with somebody that didn't make it and you can't treat that like normal
spk_0
you know what it means because of where it's been yeah and when the flying saucer shows up
spk_0
you know with one of those little grape people and you can take all kinds of precautions all the same
spk_0
precautions but we hope that those are the visitors don't die we don't want them in the
spk_0
more yeah we don't know that we want to hang with them yeah exactly we want to hang with them yeah
spk_0
find out about them well Patricia thank you so much for joining with us this has been so much fun
spk_0
we're very welcome it has been fun this has been amazing both with everything thank you so much and
spk_0
also just so you know you're in the acknowledgments of my first book oh well I've descended to you
spk_0
you should yeah well I think your character needs to occasionally give Scarpetta a call
spk_0
I just think oh my god there you go the dream I don't I'm just telling you they know each other are
spk_0
you aware I feel like they do they I think they do I think that they are friends and they didn't
spk_0
tell but she didn't tell me much she didn't think I exist but when I'm telling you's you know I bet
spk_0
that they're buddies I think I think you know what I bet they hang out with Dexter Bolson
spk_0
oh 100% that's real now that's Canon I love it well everybody check out the latest installment
spk_0
to Patricia's work sharp force which comes out tomorrow if you're listening to this right away
spk_0
it's so good October 7th and we also can't wait to tune in to Scarpetta next spring
spk_0
huge congratulations to you and thank you again thank you thank you so much take care
spk_0
you too and you're welcome back anytime yeah please come back we will yeah okay all right we'll
spk_0
see you then all right thank you how fucking cool was that that was so that was so fun it was
spk_0
awesome that you're geeky when she said when she told me that case Scarpetta and Ren Muller would
spk_0
be friends yeah that that was next level shit oh even I was just like oh my god yeah I'm not
spk_0
even here anymore now Alina has passed away yeah I'm I've shuffled off I I have damn
spk_0
stuff this mortal coil up did a little jig off this mortal coil fucking awesome we hope you guys
spk_0
dug that as which is we did also what we are going to bring back the morbid book club
spk_0
yes I did because remember we have a we have a bonus episode to play around with us so we can make
spk_0
it whatever the fuck we want yeah Patricia inspired us I haven't read any of the Scarpetta series
spk_0
oh I want to you love her so in the next couple of months we're gonna start with it's post-bored
spk_0
them post-bored miss her first book in the series all right so our bonus episode in a couple
spk_0
of months will be going over post-bored them so everybody start reading if you haven't yet yeah I
spk_0
figure we'll we'll sprinkle in the book club out here and there on a bonus episode so it's
spk_0
we're gonna make those fun you know fun they can be all kinds of things so if you guys want to get
spk_0
with us on the post-bored them thing so we can talk about it and go through it so you can listen to
spk_0
it you can read it yeah have a couple months to catch up on it we'll let you know when it's coming
spk_0
also how fucking awesome is Patricia's voice great boys she is like you literally Clarice Starling
spk_0
Elena said it to me before we started the interview and I was like oh well as soon as it started
spk_0
as soon as she started talking I was like oh wow yeah I was like she created one of my favorite
spk_0
characters and she sounds like one of my favorite characters she is my favorite like damn Patricia
spk_0
yeah that was that was phenomenal it really was check out Patricia's all of Patricia's stuff we
spk_0
got her a pedicumming we got sharp foresharp force coming and in a couple months we'll have
spk_0
post-bored them go take it back to the beginning so we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep
spk_0
it we're not so weird that you don't join us for our book club and check out all of Patricia's
spk_0
things because it's so good everything is so thrillers
spk_0
so