Technology
Fighting forest fires from a DC-6, with David Gagliardi
In this episode of Pilots Discretion, fire bomber pilot David Gagliardi shares his experiences fighting wildfires from a DC-6 and other aircraft. He discusses the intricacies of aerial firefighting, i...
Fighting forest fires from a DC-6, with David Gagliardi
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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Today on Pilots discretion were joined by Fire Bomber pilot and flight instructor David
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Gagliardi.
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He talks about fighting wildfires from a DC-6, lessons learned from checkrides, and
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great Canadian airports.
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Pilots discretion starts right now.
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Hi everyone, I'm John Zimmerman and thanks for listening to Pilots discretion from Sporties.
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Visit sporties.com slash podcast for today's show links and access to our complete archives.
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And remember you can send us an email with your comments, questions, and guest ideas at
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podcast at sporties.com.
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Today I'm excited to welcome David Gagliardi to the podcast.
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He and I have worked together on pilot workshops mastery scenarios in the past.
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And while working with him, I came to appreciate the unique flying career he has enjoyed.
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He has worked as a flight instructor, a charter pilot, cargo pilot, transport candidate
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inspector, and perhaps most interestingly as a fire bomber pilot, or maybe more technically
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an aerial forest fire suppression pilot.
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In that role he's flown piston airliners like the DC-6 and the Convair 580, but David
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has also flown aerobatics, sea planes, gliders, and warbirds, and currently flies in Nanchang
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CJ-6A.
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As if that weren't enough, he's also had a three decade career in the naval reserve.
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David, welcome to pilot's discretion.
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Thanks for inviting me.
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I want to start with your time fighting forest fires, something a lot of Americans got
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an education on earlier this year with the terrible fires in Los Angeles.
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I think that it people's radar, maybe the first first time in a while.
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So help us understand the overall plan for fighting a forest fire and in what do airplanes
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add to that mix?
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Where does that come into the plan?
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Well, first of all, there's two ways of aerial forest fire suppression.
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One is you use an amphibious aircraft to scoop water and then drop it right on the fire.
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The other way is you use a chemical retardant and you drop it around the edge of the fire
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to stop it from spreading.
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The two can be used together at the same time.
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The general problem with water bombing, so scooping, is the water has to be close to
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the fire.
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The general rule of thumb is five minutes of flying time.
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Otherwise you can't put enough water fast enough to make any difference.
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And so because a lot of the areas of North America don't have lakes adjacent, we tend to
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have a retardant bombing in the west and then in the east and Ontario and Minnesota,
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Quebec, those areas are mostly water bombing with skupers.
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So my whole career has been on the land base, retarded bombing on the western part of
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Canada and Washington State, Oregon, Alaska and any until where it's a scratch on.
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And I would imagine the mission briefing here is very detailed.
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So walk us through that process.
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What do you do before you go flying to prepare for the mission?
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Well, there's a, it's two levels.
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So there's a spring training session, which is designed to get everyone up to speed.
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So both of me, the regulatory requirements for the check rides for the airplanes, but also
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to practice the procedures.
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The actual fire is basically tactical military procedures.
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So you sit on the base waiting for the horn to go off or later a text message on your
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blackberry.
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And as an aside, we all assigned the Johnny Cash song, Burning Ring of Fire to that number.
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So whatever there was a dispatch all of a sudden the foes at all start squawk into that.
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But then they we have five minutes to get in the airplane and it's all done on the fly.
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So the, you know, the, I guess I'll back up a little bit.
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There is a different thing, Canada, US, Canada dispatches with electronically the US dispatches
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would we call order so they give you a piece of paper, but basically it's the same.
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So you jump in the airplane, flash up the ideas to be airborne in five minutes.
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And then you all you get is location of fire.
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And so on the way, they will dispatch a lead plane or what we call Canada bird dog, which
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is a four-hour controller.
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And so they're responsible for developing the plan.
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So they'll get there first.
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They'll scoop go about the fire.
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They'll talk to people on the ground and then figure out where the most effective use of
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the retardant could be.
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So sometimes that involves putting a retina right on the fire, although more normally,
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we would try to stop the fire from spreading.
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So you lay some retardant in front of it so the wind would come up against the
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retardant or sometimes you may want to try to steer the fire.
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So if there's an area of scrub or low value or nothing, is you start working with flanks.
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And then that kind of steers a fire into no fuel and that goes out on its own.
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So a lot of it depends on the scenario.
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As a general rule, the smaller the fire, the better this works.
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And our goal in Canada was one hectare, so a thousand meter square or less is the ideal
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to work.
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Because then we can get around it with one load with a large bomber.
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Sometimes, of course, that doesn't work or the fire gets away.
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And then we tend to, what's the, what we call campaign fires.
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It's more about working around edges or trying to protect particular values on the side.
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And, but it's really important, though, that this is one tool in the fire toolbox.
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And so we don't generally put fires out.
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It's the troops on the ground to do that.
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And so we assist the broader firefighting,
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firefighting actions.
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But the guys on the ground are the ones, frankly, that have my respect.
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My job is easy compared to theirs.
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And, but it's amazing what can, what they can do on the ground.
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And then we support that as well.
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So it's all a big team and everybody works together to hopefully save the forest,
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save values and go home safe.
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Well, none of it sounds easy to me.
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But part of it as a pilot that I think sounds particularly difficult
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is the situational awareness part of this.
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You've got to fly the airplane.
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Obviously, you've got to keep an eye on where the fire is.
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You've got to keep an eye on the other airplane.
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So how do you maintain that situational awareness when you're flying a mission like this?
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Especially when there's terrain or smoke.
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How do you, how do you keep that big picture view?
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Actually, from a fear-flying perspective, the lead pilot has the hardest job
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because he will scope out the area.
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So he has to visually acquire all of the cues on the ground, talk on the radar.
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And he can be monitoring up the four frequencies.
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And then he will fly the bombing run
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to check out for any dangerous snags, rising ground, bad exits.
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And so basically, we just show up overhead, watch what he does, and then follow behind him.
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So the flying part is actually relatively straightforward,
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because he's already had a pre-plan route.
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There is in the states an ability for the tankers to do initial attack where they're on their own.
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But in Canada, we don't allow that.
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But in any case, generally, the plan is understood, and you kind of know where you need
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to go. So you just fly a big circle, left-hand circle, so that you're on the right side of the
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airplane to see the fire. And then just do a descending orbit, line up on final, pick up the cues.
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And again, the off and the lead plane will give you, they have a smoke generator,
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so they'll leave a little trailer smoke, so you have something to queue on.
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And then depending on what you're doing, often it's a tag on an extend.
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So there's already a turn on the ground, which is red, which shows up pretty well.
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So you just line up with that, and then when you get the end of it,
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release your load and carry on. It's all visual. There's no aids.
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So when there's strong winds or a curbing approach, there's a bit of body English required
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in the part of the pilot, but that comes with experience.
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So the challenge I would suggest is more the pure flight part.
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You know, you're flying a big airplane closer to the ground and banked.
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And we used to joke not only allowed to fly close to the ground and steep bank you have to.
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So you know, the last airplane I was in, an electric 110,000 pounds, or 125 knots,
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150 feet over the trees. So the margins are less obviously.
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And so you have to really be thinking about where the airplane's going,
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and preserving the energy of the airplane, not going into a low energy state.
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But it's well choreographed. We've been doing it for a long time.
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And so I think it's kind of well understood procedures.
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And if you follow them and you stay safe, a smoke can definitely be an issue.
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That's I think probably the most challenging conditions.
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You try as they out of it, but sometimes you can't.
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And so that can be scary when you start losing visibility, close to the, close to the ground.
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But often actually the most dangerous part is not the fire is getting to the fire.
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You know, when you have to navigate, you know, smoke fill valleys and there may be tons of other
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airplanes zooming around. And so that can actually be more concerning than actually working overhead
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to fire where everything is all contained.
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We mentioned you fly some unique airplanes here. You're not doing this in a SESTA 180.
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You've flown 60-year-old radial engines. You've flown DC-6s as conveyors. You mentioned
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the electric. So what's harder about doing it in those airplanes?
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Large airplanes, older airplanes, is it systems managed? Is it the stick and rudders you mentioned?
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The load factor? What is the thing that you work most on?
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Well, I think the large airplanes are all too crew, which is great because you can,
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you know, the guy driving can just concentrate on looking out the window and the other guy can manage
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the whole airplane. That's a really important in the DC-6 because engine management is quite demanding.
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And I mean, my first go as a sixth. I flew to the co-pilot first year and ever looked out the window.
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There was just so much to do. And then, you know, as I got a better feel for the airplane,
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I could help out. But the single pilot machines are a bit harder, but then they're smaller. So
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it's kind of a trade-off. The big issue with the larger planes is just they're big. And they have a
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inertia. And so you have to make sure that you don't get into the situation where you start
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losing energy. You can't get it back fast enough, especially close the ground. You know,
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you're turning circles bigger. Just everything is bigger and heavier. So it takes a bit more planning.
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It was a very nimble airplane. I remember doing one fire up in Yukon, circling down a bowl at 85 knots.
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So the airplane was carrier-based, so it looked very good, low-speed characteristics.
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So it was more handy, I guess. More maneuverable. So, but then I was single pilot. So there's a trade-off
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again there about having to do everything yourself. And what's the unique personality of those
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airplanes, DC-6 Conveyor, Electro? They have their own quirks and personality you get to know?
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Well, they're all old. And they're all actually from a different generation.
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The thing I think everyone appreciated is they built airplanes like tanks back then.
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And so they were really tough big airplanes and they all flew on the wing.
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And so they were very, I thought very honest flying airplanes. The DC-6 is probably my favorite airplane
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of all time. I got 80-ish types in my logbook. It was the DC-6B, the very end of the big piston.
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It was a very refined airplane. And I just love the big engines. The airplane would, you know,
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set up for cruise, you pull the props back and you got this wonderful low-growl. And it was just
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a cool, cool airplane. But very pleasant to fly. You know it's huge in all physical controls.
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There's no boosted controls. It was quite well balanced and just had a really nice control feel.
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And it's just such a cool airplane. So I loved it.
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Yeah, DC-6B may be the best looking airline I ever built. My totally biased opinion, I just think
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that's a great looking airplane. If you've ever seen one of the rare instances where one of those
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comes out of that air show, it stops your cold new tracks when you see that, I think.
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So how do I get started in this, David? If I'm interested in this, I mean, is this an apprentice
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model? Do I go to school for it? How do I get involved in firebombing?
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Well, there's no entry-level jobs. I was hired by my company with $3,600, around the engine,
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big-round engine time, already mountain time. And I was one of the lower time guys they hired.
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Wow. You really need a... The flying has to be automatic because so much else is happening.
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And so there's really no apprentice jobs. There's no kind of step-up.
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Even the Birddog or Leadplane, which is a small airplane at King Area, where AeroStar or something
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like that, still you can't be thinking about flying your plane into your job. And so you need
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a significant experience. Certainly, if you're working in the West, mountain time, low-altoo time,
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egg guys are fairly commonly, they think they bring a good skill set. Fair number of military people
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with low-level tactical operations fit in quite well. The actual pile pool is in huge. A lot of it
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tends to be word-of-mouth. That's how I got on. I was recommended by another pilot in NUMI who had a
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connection to the company. So I think typically that's how people get involved. It is a tough
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lifestyle. My company, which I think was typical, had basically two kinds of pilots. The general
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rule of thumb is if you made it to year five, you are a lifer. But we had a fair number of folks,
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quite good pilots, quite competent, who only lasted a year or two because of the lifestyle.
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I did one summer, whereas on a base pretty much every day, except for
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mandatory days off, and we only flew 27 hours. So there was a huge amount of sitting around with
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nothing to do. The joke of the tanker base is you eat to your sleep, eat to your hug, but
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if you have to be able to occupy yourself. But when the bell goes off or the
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pager goes off, it is the coolest flying I think that's available in civilian aviation.
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And with a military background in the Navy, to me, it was the best fall world. It's all the good
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parts of it in the military without all the bad parts, the paperwork and all the bullshit stuff
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and all that. And what's the future of this look like? In the US, there's some larger Jets you'll
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occasionally see who are doing these fire bombing runs. Is it drones? What does this world look
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like in 10 years? That's a good question. I think there's a place for drones, but
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the capacity piece matters. And so there is a minimum quantity of pertinent
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below which it just isn't worth it. And so like a thousand gallon or 800 gallons is kind of the
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cutoff. So I think it's going to be a while before you see drones. The other part is kind of the
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economic reality. One of the reasons you see all these old airliners is because the airframes are
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cheap. And so you know, you have a big airplane, but you only use it a couple of hundred hours a year.
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And so the rest of the time is just sitting around. And so it's hard to justify having an expensive
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airframe when you're only using it a bit. And even if you can have a more round the year fire,
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like you see in a southern states, it's still I think hard to justify really big capital outlay
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out front. And so I think the current mix is going to hang around for a while. And then there's
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there's some niche roles there. There is work being done on using night vision to work at
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fires at night. Personally, I think that's really scary, but there are definite advantages. The
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fire lays down at night. So you can work areas you couldn't. I think the
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always work best is having more tools and toolbox. And so what I think you're seeing now is kind
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of a stretch from each end, you know, at the bottom end, like an air tractor 802 with 800 gallons
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and at the other end, at DC 10 with 12,000. And you know, I can certainly think of fires where
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that big tanker was the perfect machine. Big grass fire. You can just one load right across
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the fund. Dunn, whereas a smaller tanker, you can't get all the way across in the fire burns
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around the edge. And then you just go back and force and you get the six of six egg of
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fire lines. So it's it's a
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where I think there's probably room for improvement or not a medium improvement or make
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more effectiveness is coordinating all the various bits. So you're starting to see more like a
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military command and control system to manage the assets better. And so I think that will make it
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more effective. But at the end of the day, you know, so we're we're only one part of the
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national forest fire suppression effort. And, you know, unfortunately, there does seem to be feelings
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that oh, you know, just sending the airplanes in a problem will go away. And that's not the case
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at all. And you know, you kind of joke sometimes. I'd love to call it political retirement. You know,
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where where people want to see airplanes on the six car news. But that's generally not as effective
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as it could be used in a more coordinated way. But you do what you do. And ultimately,
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we work for the agencies and they're they have operational control and we put the return on
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where they tell us to. Best of any world, David, thanks for giving us a look into that. Let's take
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a quick break. And when we come back, I want to switch gears and talk about your time as an instructor
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and a pilot examiner. Hey, pilots, let's be honest. Once you pass your check ride, flying isn't just
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about checklists and maneuvers. It's about making smart decisions and adjusting when things don't
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That's pilotworkshops.com. Now back to pilot's discretion.
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We are back with David Gagliardi who spent many years as an instructor and then an inspector
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for Transport Canada. David, I know in those roles you've done a lot of checkrides, both for
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initial certificates, kind of your classic private pilot checkride, but also for professional pilots
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and some checkrides beyond just the normal. So what are the differences you've seen there,
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either in terms of how the checkride goes or how the candidates prepare? Is there anything we can
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learn from that? Well, first off, I'd like to state that my opening position is success. I want them to
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pass or to be successful and so if they can't make the standard, then that's disappointing to me.
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I'd much rather be part of a successful ride than not. And so I know maybe there are
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examiners out there that like feeling people, but that's certainly not my experience. I think
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everyone I've dealt with in the examiner world and checkpot world want people to succeed.
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And so the checkpot or examiner who's in your enemy, you work as a team to get the mission done,
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which in this case is to demonstrate your proficiency. So that's a good mindset to start with.
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I think the kind of obvious, but the preparation for the flight test really kind of sets
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yourself up to succeed or fail. And if I have a moment, I kind of funny story. So I was doing a
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checkride on an avahoe or part 135 equivalent. And at the time, this is 30 years ago, all the
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rides are done by transfer count inspectors. And the one I was given had a reputation for being
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stone faced like a good guy, but he didn't. So I was mostly flying the freighter Navajo and so the
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crew doors over the wing, but this flight test was in the cheap and which has an extended fuselage.
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And so the freighter the doors actually bit for the forward. And so we all get in and the weather
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wasn't great. We're going from Victoria Vancouver. I was going to throw them off there. And then
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we had to do some VFR work. And I realized I didn't have a VFR chart. So I'm sitting there
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playing just about the start up. And I realized, well, I really shouldn't be flying around in because
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we're going to break the flight, the I for a flight plan into a BFR segment. So I turned to them and
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say, you know what, I'm sorry, I forgot the ring my VFR chart. I'm just going to run out and get it.
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So I leap out of the cockpit, except the wing is it there.
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Well, so my foot's up on the door sill. My hands are behind my head on the desal that I've
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entered at you. And I still remember the expect to kind of leads over what eyebrow kind of goes up
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and down. He says, are you okay? So I thought, oh, what a great way to start the ride. And anyway,
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so I'd tag all myself running at the chart and I'll back say, sorry about that. And he says,
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and I still remember this word and which I used in flight test. He looks at me and says, you know,
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Dave, I don't care what happened five seconds ago. All I care about is what's happening in the future.
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So put that behind you and do a good flight test. And you know, I think that's a really powerful lesson
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because unfortunately, I've seen flight tests both in the licensing, private and commercial and
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in the professional world where flight test is going okay. A maneuver doesn't go so well. And
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it just turns into a spiral and all ends badly. So, you know, if it doesn't go great,
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you just have to put in the rear view and and and I'm concentrating doing well on the next one.
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And I think the examiner, if the examiner is going to tell you whether the ride's over or not.
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And if he doesn't say it's over, we won't keep going. And you know, I've certainly seen folks who
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know where we started a bit ropey, but then kind of all came together and I was quite happy at the end.
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So don't, you know, don't fail yourself. I know that's easy to say, but it isn't important to
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consideration, I think. And you know, I expect people to be nervous, particularly at the early
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early stages, but that is though, you know, life, right? I mean, you are going to be put in
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situations as a pilot. And kind of another funny did was I was doing an inspection on an
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air operator and they had some smaller planes and one of them was a Charkey six. And as I walk
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in the front door, the airplane pulls up on the ramp. So I think, well, I'll just start with a ramp.
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So, young guy gets out and really nervous. And I say, you know, no, we're just going to,
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they've got to check this, let's go through it. And so I break the ice, you know,
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you know, what's your name? Where you from? And how long have you been working for this? He says,
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oh, this is my first day of the job. So we're got you get wrapped out his very first day.
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I was very first job as a commercial pilot. So I felt kind of bad about that. But they were all fine.
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But anyway, but but again, no, you know, that's, that's reality. You have to deal with it. And
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and in the end, I was quite impressed with them because, you know, he, he had a stocks in a role and
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he gave a good brief to me on what he, what he had was able to show me all stuff I need to see.
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And, you know, I was able to give him a good thumbs up. So good on him.
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Yeah, the checkride is nobody's idea of fun. But if you're on that professional pilot track,
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and you want to be an airline pilot or charter pilot, that is going to be your life for the
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foreseeable future. You're going to be taking check rides every six months in a lot of cases. So,
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I've often given the advice to new pilots, learn to, if not love the check ride, then at least
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make peace with it and endure it because that's just going to be a regular fact of life like going
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on the dentist for you. So there's, there's no point in getting overly stressed about it.
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Yeah. And I think the other part too is, you will get a whole bunch of different check pilots.
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And I've had tons of little nuggets from them that made me a better pilot. And so, you know,
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I always ask at the end of my rides, you know, after kind of it's all done, you know, kind of
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more and more informal, you know, hey, you see things that I could actually work on or,
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you know, is, is, do you have any ideas on how to do something better or, you know, in most of these
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folks are really happy to share their experience. And especially when you have a more junior pilot.
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And I think back in my earlier days in my commercial career, I got some really good tips from folks.
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So I've looked at it as a learning opportunity. And in fact, there was one examiner, a transfer
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joke. It was, it's because at that point, a flying instructor or a flight test only cost 40 bucks.
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He said, it was the best 40 bucks of flight trade you'll ever get because the guy was a being
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there done that. He's a, you know, or, and just a great guy. And he always had some really good
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feedback. And, you know, some of which I still use. So that's, I think, a better way to look at
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that the right is an opportunity to make yourself a better pilot.
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Great advice. You also had some great advice a few years ago. You wrote an article about
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forced landings. And to me, you're opposing the question of, are we really teaching pilots to
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handle engine failures? Or are we just teaching them to memorize a maneuver? So what is the right way
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we should be teaching engine failures and forced landings in primary training?
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Well, the first problem is we're teaching to the flight test. And so the flight test starts
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by necessity with the examiner pulling the throttle back and saying, it failed.
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Well, when you think about it, let's see, we just did a full walk around. We drained the tanks,
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we checked for contaminants, we checked quantity. We did a full run up to confirm the,
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everything engine was working fine. We checked it, we had full power available when we took off.
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And we're flying along and we're checking that the engine gauges are all appropriate.
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And engine fails. That is the absolute least likely scenario to actually happen to you ever.
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So, you know, Paul Bergerelli had an excellent podcast about how engine failures actually
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happen. And 60% of them were caused by the actions are in actions of the pilot.
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And so I had a particularly, I guess, a, a, a, a, a moment for me, is not long after starting
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instructing one of the pilots in the, in the school that I worked at. He got his, was a my student,
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but he got his in his license when bought an airplane. And he was flying back from an airport
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a couple of weeks later, an engine failed. And he crammed it into this nasty little cut block and a
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forest. To quite an excellent job of flying to put in the only available spot, airplane was wrecked,
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but nobody was hurt. When it collected the wreckage, the left fuel tank had 10 gallons, the right
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fuel tank had zero gallons and the selectors on the right tank. And the engine failed at 3,000 feet
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above ground. And so what had happened was because in flight training, the engine never restarts,
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after you check it, everyone just kind of rushes through the checks and then concentrates and
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flying the perfect force landing of our approach. And if he had just taken that 10 seconds to do the flow,
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he would have switched if, you know, would have kicked himself or smacked him on the upside
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ahead and said, dummy switched the fuel over and the engine would have sprung back a life and he
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kind of raised the question. And then I look at myself, I've had nine engine failures in various
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airplanes over my career. That were the end fail. But the last one wasn't a failure, it was in my
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nanchang, it was a partial failure. And it was the hardest one to deal with of all the ones. So it
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started with the engine, RPM starting to hunt, I think, well, that's not right. And I was leading a
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force information at the time. And so I said, well, that's not right. So started to turn towards
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home and then the engine burped. And so I got rid of all the other guys, the second element,
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pushed my wingman to chase and the current emergency and started home. And which is what 18 miles away.
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And as I was going, the engine would burp, but not stop. So I climbed slowly and pointed at the
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airport and put a few wiggles to keep fields in view. And then I was given a straight in to
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the runway, which was in front of me. And so I cut the corner and hit it right for the runway.
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And then the engine stopped. And then it came back to life three seconds later. And then it stopped
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again. And then it came back to life. And I literally didn't know what to do at this point.
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And I couldn't make the field because there's too far back. And then it came back to life in a state
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running. And so I made the end of the state high. And then when I had gliding distance, pull the
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throttle back, engine stopped, put the wheels down, landed roll, LP. But it was, you know, if the
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engine had just stopped, I would have had I have the whole memorized pre planned actions. But when the
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engine stopped and then without me doing anything came back to life and then stopped again, I
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I was really kind of at a loss what to do. And so I still remember that moment of, you know,
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object confusion. And so it's really important, I think, that instructors talk about all of the
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possibilities, including shutting down the engine yourself. And one of the engine fears involved
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exactly that where the engine was running. But it was cooking itself. It was a turbine. And so we
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we shut it down. And so not a big deal on a foreign dinner plane, but there are certainly scenarios
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where the engine doesn't fail. You fail it deliberately by acting the same thing. It was on fire.
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So I think it's really important that people talk about all of these options in flight training.
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And I make a point as an instructor that it starts with after you got to the airplane for glide
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and point at a field, you do a check, a cause check, or a flow. And if you don't do it completely,
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then the X-Style stops right there. Then once you've established that, then that the engine isn't
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going to start, then you need to revert to okay. Now I've decided the engine isn't going to start.
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So now I don't think about the engine anymore. I think about flying the airplane. But that intermediate
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step I think is super important. A lot of really good tips in there. I'll close by quoting your
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article because I think this sums it up well. I tell my students that when the engine fails,
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the insurance company just bought the airplane. The only consideration is the safety of the occupants.
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If the airplane can be saved, that's nice, but it should never be a consideration. And I think
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that's the way a lot of pilots feel. And it's hard to do it in the moment, but that's absolutely
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the right way to approach the scenarios. Don't try to be a hero and save the airplane, save the
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people on board. David, we always close the show with the lightning round we call ready to copy.
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So I'll ask some questions, rapid fire style on a wide range of topics and you read back with
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your quick answer. You ready to copy? Go ahead. Describe your first fire bomber mission in five
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words or less. Panic. One word does the job. What skill is most essential for flying an old airplane
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like the DC-6? Systems knowledge. The airplane doesn't have all sorts of persistence to protect you,
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so you really have to understand how it works. What is one piece of advice you'd like to give every
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applicant on their first checkride? Be prepared. When you think you're prepared, go over everything
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again. What is your favorite maneuver to teach as a flight instructor? Crosswind landings.
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And what is your favorite maneuver to check on the checkride?
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Fans on the checkride. Because of course there's a big one between a private pilot, one in an
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air bag instructor one. But I think the run-up actually can be the most insightful as an examiner.
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A checklist discipline, it checks knowledge of the systems, it checks airmanship in terms of
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position of the airplane first, it checks smoothness in terms of the jam step in or not. So it
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actually ticks a whole lot of boxes. And I used to do provisions, see flights or the flying club
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had an requirement to do an annual checkride. And I used to fill in the entire form based on what I
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saw on the checkride, just this kind of a mental exercise. And a lot of times I was pretty close.
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Interesting, very interesting. You came up, what I would consider the traditional aviation career
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lander, career ladder, flight instruction, charter cargo flying, all that kind of stuff.
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What did you learn flying charter and cargo, those Navajos you were talking about? What did you
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learn there that you just can't learn as a flight instructor? The charter world will make you,
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we're forcing the situations where you have to make decisions. And the decisions all will involve
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saying no, and they'll be really hard. And I think the flight instruction you're kind of
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insulated from the really tough decisions, but the commercial world, the needle is at go.
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And you have to be able to say no, sorry, that isn't going to happen. And I think that's where
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a lot of new pilots struggle, particularly with companies that kind of put them on a bit of pressure.
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What's the best advice you ever received as a pilot?
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When I was, look at the gauges. When I was, if you have a moment here, when I was an instructor
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brand new, I hung out the airport. And it was his gentleman, this is in the early 80s.
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It was his gentleman who had this beautiful polished square tail on 72. And he had learned
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the flying the 30s World War II, like he was the poster trial for being there done that. And just
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a real gentleman. Anyway, he was out washing his airplane. And I was my student council. So I
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helped him polish it. And then we went for a spin. And the first thing that I, on hard to
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understand is how we could fly the airplane without moving the wheel. Because the guy was so smooth.
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But then we used to, we used to fly a fair amount. And I remember one time we were flying along. And
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I was flying. And he put his hand over all the engine gauges and said, tell me where all the needles
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are. And I said, uh, in the green, he says, no, you need to know where they are exactly.
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Because that way, if they move a bit, then they will give you warning. And that saved me from
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an off airfield forced approach when an oil pump failed on a system 150. And I caught the
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declining oil pressure fast enough that we were able to detect the airport. Wow. I mentioned
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you fly that in an inching C J6A. What's the most unique feature of that unique airplane?
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Air system. So everything is run by air. So the bad news is when you have an air leak, it really
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sucks. Cause you open the hanger door. And the floors is covered at air. But, but no, it's, uh,
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it's, uh, the systems are completely different from anything I've ever had. And so, uh, but it's
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cool. And, uh, but it's a wonderful airplane, uh, beautifully built, very nice and light in the
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controls makes great, great engine noises. And bang for the buck is the best bargain and more
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word flying in my opinion. You live in British Columbia, a gorgeous part of Canada. Where is the
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best fly in destination in that area? If I'm headed north of the border here, where should I
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check out in that area? Uh, to Fino is definitely worth it. Um, the airport is right next to a beautiful
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beach. It's about a five minute walk. Um, park on the ramp, walk down the road, and there's
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miles and miles of beautiful beach open to the, the west. Um, some of the interior airports are
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super pretty. Although you need to be version of mountain flying, but, um, but, um, there's,
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that's a tough one to answer, cause there's just so many really cool spots to go. But, um, I think,
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an obvious one would be to Fino. How about the other side of Canada, you grew up in Montreal at
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fun and unique city in its own right? What's the best place to fly in eastern side of Canada?
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That's a bit of a tough one. Um, there's lots of, uh, lots of history and especially in Quebec,
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because it was the first part of North America settled, uh, on the northern end. Um, so lots of the
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towns around, uh, smaller towns around have airports near them and are accessible with, with a lot of
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history. Quebec City is a beautiful spot, uh, highly, highly recommended to get to the old part of
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town. Um, yeah, it's a tough one. There's just a lot again, a lot of smaller ports that are near
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the towns. Certainly, um, north of Montreal and the, uh, in the, the, the, the,
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there's, um, there's some great airports around there. Um, and you should challenge ships,
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roll them on this, this really nice as well. So, um, yeah, like tons of spots. I hit, you
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hit two of my list. I think Quebec City is somehow still underrated. It feels like you're in Europe,
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and it's an easy fight for anybody in the northeast US. So many good places to go.
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So you had this parallel career in the Canadian naval reserve, and I would have to guess there are
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some things you'd learn there that helped you as a pilot. Can you think of something there that
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was directly applicable flying, whether it was decision making or whether knowledge or something
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else there? I think one of the things, uh, so as I finished up my career as commanded a, a couple
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of, uh, my sweet burn coastal patrol bests, some multi-role bests on. So, uh, ships are run with a
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team like, there's, it's not like a power you drive the machine. You have a whole group of people.
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And so I think the concepts of a crew resource management are kind of baked into it from the,
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from the beginning. And so I was always used to working with everybody to accomplish the mission.
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And I think that mindset was helpful in flying. So, uh, the ground crew, the engineers, the, uh,
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the, um, it's across the other pilots. Um, the folks that have been afraid and they're
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handling the freight. So all of them contribute to the safety of the flight. And I think that mindset
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was, um, maybe not absent in aviation, but not really there until fairly recently. So I think I
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was well prepared for that. Um, the other one is, um, making decisions without complete information.
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The, you know, the equivalent of an in flight weather decision, like there's, you have exactly
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some issues in a ship. And you won't have all the information. So, but you still have to make a
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decision. And so I got used to working with a bit of uncertainty and navigation uncertainty or
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whether or conditions or whatever. And so I think that directly helped me be effective as a pilot.
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That is such a great skill to learn for anything flying life, business, parenting, almost anything.
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I can think of making decisions within complete information is what life is all about. It's pretty
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rare. You actually have complete information and the answer is sitting there right in front of you.
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All right, David. Our last question is always the same on pilots discretion. You have one final flight
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and we want to know what are you flying and where are you going? Um, evening flight,
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foreship formation over uh, straight away on a Fuca. So you get the uh, uh, on a sunny day. So you
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get the low light over the mountains. You get that kind of golden glow. You get the ocean. And you
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can look left and right and there's the other three-year-up and the formation right right there.
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David, thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me.
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Thanks for listening to pilots discretion brought to you by Sporties, training and equipping pilots
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worldwide for over 60 years. For more episodes and today's show links visit sporties.com slash podcast.
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I'm John Zimmerman. We'll see you next time on pilots discretion.