Episode Feature: How Camp Teaches Kids to Ditch Their Phones

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hi, Raising Parents listeners, Emily Astor here.

spk_0 I've got a special bonus episode I'm excited to share with you from my feed parent data.

spk_0 It's all about the greatness and importance of summer camp, especially in 2025.

spk_0 Camp is one of the few places where kids get a permission slip to be off their phones,

spk_0 where kids who don't quite fit in at school get a fresh start and maybe even find their

spk_0 people. Yes, I'm talking about my personal revelation at Macamp.

spk_0 And it's a kind of exposure therapy for parents too, learning to be okay with a little unsupervised

spk_0 play.

spk_0 Today, me and Steve Baskin, a career camp director and incoming head of the American Camping

spk_0 Association, get into all of that and much more.

spk_0 Stay with us.

spk_0 I'm Emily Astor.

spk_0 This is Parent Data and today we're going to camp.

spk_0 I remember camp for a few things.

spk_0 For the realization that it was okay to wear a sports bra on stage in a play, camp was

spk_0 the place that I learned to shave my legs, although no one told me that you should use

spk_0 shaving cream.

spk_0 And it was the place where I first kissed a boy.

spk_0 Camp is different.

spk_0 It's a place where you can be unself conscious.

spk_0 You can have pure fun in the woods.

spk_0 It's a place where you have camp friends.

spk_0 They're not the same as your school friends.

spk_0 And if you know, you know, and if you don't know, it's hard to explain.

spk_0 Camp is a place where you're 12 year old, your favorite activity is sailing and also you're

spk_0 an expert at it.

spk_0 It's fun.

spk_0 It just depends on the wind.

spk_0 I was in there with three other people.

spk_0 Right now, from counselors?

spk_0 No.

spk_0 I'm basic.

spk_0 And especially now, camps are a place where you leave your screens and your phone at home

spk_0 and you figure out what are you doing instead?

spk_0 We like to braid each other's hair.

spk_0 You love braiding.

spk_0 Explain what you have in your hands right now.

spk_0 Technically I'm not supposed to have this, but I forgot to put it back in my cabin.

spk_0 It's my string box.

spk_0 A lot of people make bracelets here with string.

spk_0 So you just buy a bunch of string and you put it into knots and make bracelets.

spk_0 We're not just going to camp today.

spk_0 We're also going to talk to Steve Baskin.

spk_0 Steve Baskin is a director of three camps, one in Massachusetts, one in Texas, one in North

spk_0 Carolina, and is the incoming president of the American Camp Association.

spk_0 Steve loves camp.

spk_0 That will come across in this interview.

spk_0 And we're also going to talk about why he loves camp and why he thinks it's so important

spk_0 for kids.

spk_0 We'll talk about interpersonal skills about camp as exposure therapy, about the importance

spk_0 of homesickness and of teaching resilience to kids and teaching them to be alone together.

spk_0 And we'll talk about phones and camp as one of the last places where kids don't have them.

spk_0 And how kids react when you take away their phone, spoiler, it goes fine.

spk_0 Not having my phone is like a part of camp.

spk_0 And I think it will be, especially this generation, it's where I can dig to the screens.

spk_0 And I find when I come back from camp, I don't have as big of an urge to pick up my phone constantly.

spk_0 I think because I'm, I've gotten used to being outside, I don't need to have my phone every,

spk_0 every minute to see, did somebody snap me, did somebody send me the message.

spk_0 I think for any parent who's camp curious, any parent who's kid is camp curious, any

spk_0 parent who's thinking about phones, and anyone who just loved camp, this is one to listen to.

spk_0 Some advice for parents is send your kids to camp because they are, they will be like less

spk_0 addicted to technology and more like outside and reading and they will be happier when they return.

spk_0 After the break, Steve Vaskin.

spk_0 Steve Vaskin, thanks so much for joining me.

spk_0 I'm delighted to be here.

spk_0 So you run a camp and we are here to talk about summer camp.

spk_0 And I would love to have you introduce yourself, tell us about your camp,

spk_0 and then we can talk a little bit about why you've devoted your life to doing this.

spk_0 Okay, well I've been a camp professional for a little more than 30 years.

spk_0 I didn't actually start in camp.

spk_0 I went to investment banking and consulting and business goal before I lighted into summer camp.

spk_0 And I run a camp in Texas as well as a camp in North Carolina.

spk_0 And I'm associated with a day camp outside of Boston as well.

spk_0 So a full-time camp geek.

spk_0 We met during the pandemic when in that first pandemic summer,

spk_0 in which you actually operated a camp and I was thinking about camps and kids and we somehow

spk_0 connected. But it was very clear to me then and now and every time we've talked since then

spk_0 that this is something you think is really important.

spk_0 And I'd love to have you talk a little bit about why.

spk_0 Well, if I can indulge a story.

spk_0 Please.

spk_0 When I was eight years old, I was the younger brother of the local football star in Midland, Texas.

spk_0 Right. And that's where Friday night lights was written about football and religion,

spk_0 only two sports at matter football and spring football.

spk_0 And he was five eight and 140 pounds, which was nothing.

spk_0 And he was the all district center in the middle of the line.

spk_0 He blocked against the guys twice his weight, kept the football team,

spk_0 everyone called him Mighty Mouse, the winning parade float, had a Mighty Mouse with his jersey on it.

spk_0 Well, everyone wanted me to follow in his footsteps in regards to the fact that I was a chronic

spk_0 asthmatic who's a laboratory for mutagress. So I developed an image of myself as a failure.

spk_0 And somebody who couldn't meet other people's expectations.

spk_0 And of course, my parents told me, you're not a failure.

spk_0 You're different for your brother.

spk_0 You're okay. But everyone else was giving me that look like, oh, bless his heart.

spk_0 And I really just felt like I was never going to measure up.

spk_0 And I went to camp and at camp, I did not have an older brother.

spk_0 At camp, I had a 19 year old that made me feel like his life was somehow made complete

spk_0 because the skinny asthmatic eight year old was in it.

spk_0 And he met me, he listened to me, and I felt totally seen.

spk_0 And I went back and never worried about playing football again.

spk_0 So, and let me also posit that I had as good a parent as someone could possibly hope to have.

spk_0 But they couldn't give me this third party validation.

spk_0 They couldn't give me the knowledge that I was okay, even if I wasn't a football player.

spk_0 So somewhere in the back of my year old mind, I saw camp as a place for

spk_0 transition. My mom used to say, so please, you can try on new versions of yourself.

spk_0 And I had a, I won't worry about the other story, but when I was 15, I got the equivalent

spk_0 of like an eagle scout. And I became convinced I could do anything on my own,

spk_0 not with the help of my parents. So those two things informed me on my view that camp was a place

spk_0 for massive transformation.

spk_0 It's so interesting because that anecdote is about, it's basically an anecdotal version of a lot

spk_0 of what we see in the data, which is camp as a kind of sense of belonging. And as a, when we look at

spk_0 trials or data on what happens with kids at camp, there is this piece that comes out very strongly

spk_0 of this being a place where kids, especially who are different in some other way from their peers,

spk_0 can connect with other people that they connect with better. And that has very good emotional effects.

spk_0 Absolutely. Now, I'll also say I like also having the kids who aren't having trouble other places.

spk_0 And they get to come and then try out being kind. Sometimes the, you know, the authors

spk_0 will learn that, hey, you're the top of the, the total poll and you don't have to acknowledge the

spk_0 people down below. It can't, that's not okay. So they're getting new narratives as well.

spk_0 Like sometimes I frame camp as a place to develop new and better narratives. When the narratives

spk_0 that you've developed to that date are created by an ecosystem that you cannot change.

spk_0 I will tell you that I, one of the most formative experiences of my adolescence was the summer I

spk_0 went to camp after seventh grade. And I had had a very, very difficult social time as you might

spk_0 imagine middle school was not serving me well. And I was very unhappy. And I went to a camp

spk_0 that involved doing math all day. So it was just like you did math all day. Like, and for me,

spk_0 like that was what I wanted. I really like doing math. And I, all the first time my whole life,

spk_0 I was around other people who also wanted to do that. And for whom I could recreate as someone

spk_0 who was like cool. I mean, I still remember I got invited to this, like at the end,

spk_0 some of the people I thought were cool. I'd camp had like a final circle. And I was there. And I

spk_0 was like, that's it. Like I've, I, this is, this is my people. And then it was almost like it's

spk_0 going to be okay. Because I know these people are in the world. And one day I'm going to find them

spk_0 again. It's not going to be the eighth grade. But it will happen. And it was, it was really important.

spk_0 Well, and I bet also, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, once you sort of felt more

spk_0 comfortable, you know, it felt judged, you started to hone other interpersonal skills in an

spk_0 environment that wasn't being mediated by other adults. And when you came back, maybe weren't,

spk_0 you know, as happy when you're in eighth grade, but you were marginally better and interacting with

spk_0 people even outside of your milieu. Yeah. Yeah. It's an unusual circumstance to put a kid in a place

spk_0 where they don't have an adult to scaffold and they don't really know anybody else. And say,

spk_0 you know, figure out, figure out these relationships, figure out this environment by yourself.

spk_0 Actually, you just said something too that I'm going to share one of my geeky or theories right now.

spk_0 Is that people are talking a lot about the development of benefits of unsupervised free play.

spk_0 Right. Uh, the nurse gets easy talks a lot with this. John Hike talks about this. I believe it

spk_0 entirely. Here's the thing. Parents aren't totally jazzed about the word unsupervised.

spk_0 What camp is, camp is an arbitrage. Camp is an opportunity to get unusual benefits

spk_0 with an unusually low risk. So in other words, from the kids' point of view, it's unsupervised

spk_0 free play because of 19 year olds too cool to be an adult. Right. But they're actually watched

spk_0 better than at home. And I can't remember exact stats. But I seem to recall that schools are twice

spk_0 to save this homes and camps are five times safer than homes. I joke that I will let my kids play

spk_0 on the supervised, but I won't let yours. Right. But again, who's supervising supervising by the

spk_0 super cool 19 year olds that see you. So it does not feel like a judging parent. And also,

spk_0 they're watching 10 kids, not one. So they let the kids spread their wings a little bit. They let

spk_0 them go a little further and discreet about the rules of a game of Gaga without marching in and say,

spk_0 no, here's how we're going to do it. So the kids can adjudicate their own issues. And they don't,

spk_0 the supervisors only step in when you're beyond the bounded range of what is actually safe.

spk_0 Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It's interesting because I think that this, as you, as you know,

spk_0 this conversation about kind of unsupervised play has come up a lot lately. And I think one issue

spk_0 for many parents is going from where we are now, which is a lot of kids, you know, they're not

spk_0 walking to school on their own. They're not really going out by themselves going from that to like

spk_0 my kids, you're just playing the woods by themselves and come back at dinner time is a bridge too far.

spk_0 And that's that's too difficult to do. And the idea that there may be there's a way to get some of

spk_0 that in an intermediate way. Yeah, the campus exposure therapy.

spk_0 My child went away. I didn't watch them every moment. And they didn't just come back. Okay,

spk_0 they came back better. So maybe with the right friend, I can't let them go play, you know, at a park

spk_0 for a couple of hours and then come back and, you know, maybe I'll have a few of the neighbors

spk_0 look at the window and make sure they're okay. But I'm not going to be the one there. And eventually,

spk_0 you can start to recreate something closer to what we had a week ago. Yeah, yeah. I think

spk_0 exposure therapy on this stuff is so it's a nice way to put it because it does get easier the

spk_0 second time. The second time you let your kid walk around the block by themselves, it's easier

spk_0 than the first time. And some of those are just getting over the barrier of, you know, how worried

spk_0 we are about our kids for good reason, but not always to their benefit. I've developed a hypothesis

spk_0 that we there are sort of two pools of parental effort. Pool number one is protective provide.

spk_0 And pool number two is prepare. And when you're holding that baby in your arms, you better be 100%

spk_0 in the protective provide. You're not in preparation. You're not whispering them about the secrets

spk_0 of the world. You're just making sure they're okay. But by the time they're 21, 25, I hope you're 100%

spk_0 in the prepare and not in the protective provide. And I almost see them as sort of crossy lines on

spk_0 a graph, the amount of parental time. But we don't see that. What we see is we keep, we don't want to

spk_0 let go of the protect mode. And it makes sense because our neighbors aren't right. And we feel

spk_0 negligent. We feel when people look at it, it's like, oh, yeah, Emily really doesn't like her kids.

spk_0 Look, she's letting them go do this. And it's hard to have the confidence in yourself to say,

spk_0 no, no, I know this is what will make my children strong. Right. And that's just hard. Yeah.

spk_0 So I want to talk a little bit about screens because the other thing that comes up, probably the

spk_0 most in the parents that I talked to, particularly with older kids is stuff about phones. It actually

spk_0 overlaps some with these issues of independence. And especially with the anxious generation

spk_0 discussions, parents are concerned about their kids' phone use. And camp is often one of the few

spk_0 places that kids are where phones are not. And so I want, first, can you just tell us what the

spk_0 screen phone policy is at your camp? They're not. And when people, can you just like say a little more

spk_0 about what you mean by none? What that means is that they might see a movie, we might project up a

spk_0 movie on movie night, maybe. I'm not sure we have movie night this term, right? They will not

spk_0 have a phone, they will not have a game system, they will not look at a computer. A few of the kids

spk_0 in high school, one of their activities is working on our media teams so they might take some

spk_0 photos and post them up. But that's it. The only other time they will see anything looks like

spk_0 your current, you know, trying screen is if you were a high school kid and you're part of our

spk_0 high school leadership program and will bring you into the house and maybe show you a TED talk of

spk_0 the importance of not being addicted to screens, right? Just as a starting place. Other than that,

spk_0 it's 10,000 minutes without looking at any kind of electronic screen.

spk_0 And tell me what happens. A kid shows up at camp, they give you their phone. And I'm curious

spk_0 how they react to this. You know, it has been really interesting to watch the trend. About six

spk_0 years ago, you would have felt like you were taking the ring from Gollum in Lord of the Rings.

spk_0 So the kids are like, grass being onto them. Some of them will bring second phones. I had a

spk_0 parent one time ship a phone inside of a teddy bear. Oh my gosh. How did you find it? It started to ring

spk_0 as we were handed it to the child, which I actually thought was pretty delicious. Anyway, but now

spk_0 we get a small number of first time campers for whom the phone is a social crutch that when they're

spk_0 not quite sure what to do, they can go down and look at it as if something really important is

spk_0 happening. You know, it is something that when they're bored, they can stay entertained. By the way,

spk_0 I'm a big fan of boredom. I won't bore you with all my theories there, but I really want kids to

spk_0 day dream some. But they are used to at every moment, being able to have music or a distraction or

spk_0 something that keeps them from sort of sitting with themselves. Those first time campers break up

spk_0 into kind of two different groups. One is there's like a day where they're not quite sure and then

spk_0 they go, wait a second. This kind of talking to people face to face and having a laugh at my jokes

spk_0 is awesome. And wow, actually get to put my arm around a friend or give them a hug and there's

spk_0 some importance. I don't know all the neurology about this, but there's an importance of physical

spk_0 contact. They're just knowing that other person's there. So most of the kids fall in that category.

spk_0 There are some kids that I would put into the, they're actually kind of addicted category and you

spk_0 just have to love them through it. Right? Now, the returners, this is entirely different. They're like

spk_0 OMG, I love this because for most teens, the phones have gone from a liberated element to almost a

spk_0 suburban. If you do not respond quickly to your friend's Instagram posts with glowing praise

spk_0 as rapidly as possible, you're not a good friend. So now you have this call on your time in the pocket

spk_0 that text and messages and Instagrams and all the stuff that you have to respond to to be a good friend.

spk_0 And some of them go, oh, I could tell my friends that my camp church is a jerk and does let me have

spk_0 a phone, but secretly I'm delighted to not have to deal with it anymore. There's a, I had a

spk_0 discussion yesterday with 30 high schoolers and they're like, I just love this. I just don't know

spk_0 how to recreate it back home. Yeah, so I'm curious about that because it seems like the the central

spk_0 piece of this is that the other people around you are not doing it. So both they're physically not

spk_0 doing it and then they have no expectation that you will be interacting with them. Exactly.

spk_0 And I'll throw one of the other. The counselors aren't either. Right. So the young kids, especially the

spk_0 young kids, get to see adults not addicted to their phones. I'll actually say that if a counselor has

spk_0 a phone in the presence of a child, they're doing harm because their their job is to be the one

spk_0 exemplar of somebody who doesn't need it. Right. But you have identified the biggest issue. It's a

spk_0 collective action problem. Yeah. So it's collective action. It can't know what has it. In fact, if I were to

spk_0 give a phone to just one of those kids, they would be incredibly subconscious looking at it.

spk_0 Right. Because no one else has it. So we spend a lot of time thinking about how do you address the

spk_0 collective action problem? Now you know what it feels like to be present with the other human being.

spk_0 You know, what it feels like to have a real connection and not a virtual connection.

spk_0 How can you create an environment in which that can happen at some level on a regular basis at home?

spk_0 Mm-hmm. Do you have ideas? Well, I had one of the young women say, I have a group of friends and we

spk_0 agree at least twice a week to do an hour and a half. Dang, maybe we go to eat, maybe we just go

spk_0 to the park, but we don't even take the phones with us so we can't even reach for them.

spk_0 Now I thought, wow, that's super cool because as a group of people, they are being social together

spk_0 and none of them can be tempted. Yeah. Other people all say, hey, look, I will not do any text or

spk_0 email phone after eight o'clock at night. So, you know, maybe blame on your parents, but I'm not

spk_0 going to be connecting then. If you want to call me, maybe you could call me, but I'm not going to

spk_0 connect in this way. Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of a message, a little bit of a message for

spk_0 parents in here that in some sense the boundary of, you know, my camp director is a jerk and will

spk_0 and maybe on my phone is a version that one could imagine, you know, especially for a younger

spk_0 teen being able to say, look, we're just not on our phones after seven p.m. and you should tell

spk_0 your friends your parents said, you know, your phone is not available after seven p.m. and they

spk_0 shouldn't expect a year from you. Absolutely, but I think there's another step. There's a book coming

spk_0 out from a psychology professor in Texas called David Yeager and he posits that the primary motivation

spk_0 force for teenagers is status and respect. Sounds right. So, there's not quite as much status and say,

spk_0 my parents tell me I can't use the phone. There is status and say, hey, I'm really tired of the idea

spk_0 that I am a product that's being sold to advertisers and the idea that if I want to be on Instagram

spk_0 Reels for 30 minutes, but I'm on for two hours, that means I just made Mark Zuckerberg richer.

spk_0 You know, we together need to have a frame where we will not be slaves to our phones. So, what are we,

spk_0 I'm talking now, a group of 16-year-olds, what are we going to do to make sure that we own our

spk_0 phones that they don't own us? And I think that's going to be the key to getting the collective

spk_0 action thing going is creating a frame where it's not the parents trying to take the phone away

spk_0 because that is not giving them status, that's not giving them respect and it goes against their

spk_0 desire to individuate. But instead, you say, no, look, these companies don't care about you.

spk_0 You are the product. That's interesting. And when you frame it this way, that works. And I know,

spk_0 actually, one of my sons used to do this thing when they go out to a meal or something,

spk_0 they put the phones in the middle and everyone's always heard that if you reach for your phone,

spk_0 you pay for it. You know, you're just pulling your papers. But there's a real status in that,

spk_0 because your parents are paying for it. It's like you're shelling it out. No, he says,

spk_0 if you reach for your phone, you're weak. No, but think about the frame. It's so simple.

spk_0 Yeah. And you would think they were made of radioactive uranium. No one reached for them at all,

spk_0 because no one wanted to be weak. No one wants to be weak, sure. So what we need to do is help

spk_0 create a frame. And I do this with my high school kids, but that would be my high school leadership

spk_0 program that you don't want to be slaves to, you know, TikTok or the companies. You want to

spk_0 have agency. You have to be the leader that creates a frame within your community that

spk_0 gives you ownership as opposed to being owned. How are you going to do that? And they're so like,

spk_0 yeah, put me in coach. I like that.

spk_0 What does it like to be without films? It's actually kind of nice. I really like it. I feel like

spk_0 I feel like I wouldn't bond with people any mere mere as much as I do if they're were phones,

spk_0 because I feel like I'm closer with a lot of people here than with people at home that I've

spk_0 known for longer. I don't stress about like what's going on around the world or like my friends.

spk_0 It's just like people here and if something happens, I just talk about with my friends and it's

spk_0 not really a big deal. A lot of people like assume that sucks, but I actually enjoy it more because

spk_0 I feel like it gives me like a cleanse or whatever, like from the outside world that I definitely

spk_0 need. I feel like I have a lot more fun because like I'm not worrying about stuff.

spk_0 I don't have to just offer to the screen. I feel like it's easier to actually focus and have more

spk_0 fun and we're not like look trying and stuff. Also, if you don't have your phone on you,

spk_0 some people are worrying about what their friends are doing or being left out. At campsons,

spk_0 I don't have my phone. I'm just having more fun with my camp friends than I would at home.

spk_0 It's easier to make friends and stuff. You make better connections with people. I think I'm

spk_0 closer to my friends at school. More parent data, including why homesickness is a feature of

spk_0 camp life, not a bug after the break.

spk_0 Okay, so we're going to get... All right, now I want to get back to the camp piece of this because

spk_0 whenever I talk to you about this, I'm just like, how can everyone go to camp? And I think

spk_0 that many parents will also get here and think like, yes, this sounds amazing. There's no phones,

spk_0 everybody feels they're belonging, but even if I'm not concerned about my kids' safety,

spk_0 which I think many parents can get over, people are going to worry about their kids being homesick.

spk_0 And I'm going to send my kid to this camp and they haven't been away from me very much, maybe not

spk_0 at all. And I'm afraid they'll be sad. And so I'd love to start by just asking like, our kids sad.

spk_0 Absolutely. Home is a nice place. Yeah.

spk_0 Have you ever traveled to a foreign country that doesn't speak your language and been absolutely

spk_0 comfortable the moment you arrived? No. I'm not. I need to figure out how to ask for the bathroom

spk_0 is how I can, you know, get food and, you know, change money. Like, until that happens and maybe

spk_0 transportation, I'm not comfortable in a country that I don't speak the language. But I love to

spk_0 travel and I have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable in order to get the wonderful

spk_0 experience of travel. Home is a wonderful place, but it's a place that doesn't

spk_0 enable you to grow as much as environments that stretch you. So I would suggest that home

spk_0 sickness is a feature, not a bug, or put differently. There's some parents that go, hey, other kids

spk_0 could do this, but mine can't. The whole thing is she's 12. Okay, most kids could do three,

spk_0 four weeks when they're eight. Okay, that's about 95% are going to be totally okay at age eight to

spk_0 go several weeks. If you tell your 12 year old they can't do it. And then you ask them,

spk_0 when you want to do it, when they're 13, well, other people can do it. Maybe I can't. When are they

spk_0 ever going to know they can do that? And by the way, they're going to be going to college at some

spk_0 point. You think it suddenly gets a snap and go, oh, I couldn't go to camp for two weeks,

spk_0 but now I could go for nine months. Right. Back to the prepare and protect. There is the

spk_0 predict the yes, they will have moments when they're a little bit sad. And they'll be around other

spk_0 people having same experience or people who have had that same experience with two counselors,

spk_0 probably with eight, nine, ten kids, who have been trained on how to deal with home sickness.

spk_0 And there's a whole array of techniques, but just know this is one of the things that you

spk_0 have to do well if you're a camp professional. Right. And then what happens on the other side is,

spk_0 wait, I'm now the kind of kid that can be away from home and make friends and accomplish new

spk_0 skills and be spectacular without being in the shadow of my mom and dad. I still love them as

spk_0 much. In fact, I might level a little bit more because they had enough confidence in me to take

spk_0 this risk. So I absolutely believe that home sickness, well, it's an exercise in anti-fragility.

spk_0 It's one of those things that puts this outsider comfort zone that then gives us evidence that we're

spk_0 more capable of than we thought. Do you like kids call their parents? No. I mean, no. I wish you

spk_0 somebody, let's say, oh, that's a terrible analogy. If someone has just gotten off of using their

spk_0 phone, they've now learned, I'm not constantly looking at my hand or looking at my pocket for the

spk_0 phone. What you then reintroduce it after three days, hearing a parent's voice in about 99 to 20

spk_0 cases will only make homesickness worse. Now what's the 20th case? The 20th case is the parent who

spk_0 needs to say, no, I'm not going to come get you. And by the way, here's the thing that I've

spk_0 learned about kids. And this is true. It about 999 out of 1,000 cases. So I had maybe two campers

spk_0 of 2,000 a summer that this does not apply to is that once they know the option is not there,

spk_0 they will redirect their energy. They're not fools, right? Now they're, but they're really,

spk_0 really good at being persistent. So they'll try their counselor, then they'll try the divisulator,

spk_0 then they'll try a director. And sometimes we just have to be, look, I'm telling you, you're not

spk_0 going to call home. And they go, okay, and then they adjust. And very, very, very rarely, the

spk_0 parent has to say, actually, sweetheart, I'm not going to come get you. Have a good time. But that's

spk_0 super rare. Do you ever have kids leave? Yeah. I want to leave a summer. But what's, what's, you're

spk_0 by mathematician? What's 2 in 2000? No, 0.01 percent. It's small. Yeah. Do you encourage kids to

spk_0 write to their, I, this is like a very practical thing, but do you, do you encourage kids to write to

spk_0 their parents? I do, I do. And that, by the way, is I believe it's developmentally appropriate.

spk_0 But, like, boys almost never write. Yeah. And when they do write, they write the letter I wrote.

spk_0 If a parents listening, remember, I am now a full-time camp official. But I was eight years old,

spk_0 remember the, as a meda kid. And the letter I wrote to my parent, mom, I got some water on my hand

spk_0 and drifted on the page. And I wrote, dear, mommy, I had not colored mommy in the two years.

spk_0 Dear mommy, the stains on this page, the tears that are falling from my eyes. If you truly love me,

spk_0 you'd come and get me. Okay. Well, I've got that letter last year. Yeah. I actually write that to

spk_0 parents. They say, do my kid this letter? Well, my mom calls the camp, has a laugh. It doesn't do

spk_0 it. Why? Because my two older siblings had done all this teen years earlier. And she knew that

spk_0 I'm writing this during the rest period, when nothing else is going on, and I'm not thinking about

spk_0 the fun activities, I'm thinking about home, and I'm getting a little maruminating, and I'm

spk_0 malatromatic. So I write this. So they called it and said, is he okay? Yeah. I see, he's smiling

spk_0 all the time. No evidence of massive dyspondency. Nope. Doing great. Fine. She saved the letter.

spk_0 That's nice. Very high quality parenting right there. So again, I see, let me back up again,

spk_0 if you come and rescue your child, if you tell your child, if you're on a couple of sleepboar,

spk_0 for example, I will come and get you. I see it comes from a place of love. It comes from a place of

spk_0 a, I do not want you to suffer at all. I don't want you to feel scared. But if you're the only one

spk_0 that's being rescued, and I say this with love to any parent listening to it, your child gets

spk_0 the message that they aren't able to deal with it. If I, you know, cut your meat for you, Emily,

spk_0 every time you ate, you would think, I'm sending the message, I don't think you could catch your own meat.

spk_0 If I rush and open the door and do everything for you, at some point you had to go, hey, buddy,

spk_0 I am an adult. You would be, I don't need you to do things for me. If you do things for people

spk_0 all the time, especially when they see other people aren't being scaffolded as much, they will get

spk_0 the message that they're not capable. And I know parents so want to hear this. But that is

spk_0 a question, the message they get is other kids might be able to do camp. They might be able to do a

spk_0 sleepover, but you might sweet, delicate, chide a doll. You can't. And again, I hope this isn't

spk_0 a selfie trick. No, I think, I actually think it's incredibly important to hear in, you know,

spk_0 in part because I just think we aren't as parents for good reason, comfortable living with our kids

spk_0 being sad. And in some ways, I think we're looking, people are looking in this for answers like,

spk_0 well, you know, when your kid goes to camp, like there's some, or there's some situation in which

spk_0 they're not, they're like, they're never having any discomfort. And sure, some kids are going to

spk_0 show up and be like, this is great. I'm not homesick. But the recognition that many kids will show up,

spk_0 they will have some discomfort. They will be a little sad. And it is still the right thing.

spk_0 Holding that together is so crucial. I'm going to say something that I would not actually say to

spk_0 a parent, but it's like, hey, my child was homesickness. I want to say you're welcome. Yeah.

spk_0 They got another side and now they're better for it. Right? You know, oh, and they had an argument

spk_0 with one of their cabin mates. You're welcome. They're going to have an argument with the roommate

spk_0 someday, but they adjudicated it on their own. They learned that you could disagree with somebody

spk_0 and be friends with them later. Right? I, the, here's the little secret about camp is camp is a

spk_0 place that's challenging in a lot of different ways. I will try an activity and they'll add it.

spk_0 And then I'll learn through tenacity. I could later succeed. I'll try an activity and they'll

spk_0 add it and never succeed. I could set a goal to dunk a basketball and it ain't going to happen.

spk_0 That was the, I could set that goal. I have to learn some things I can't do.

spk_0 I will have friends, cabin mates, I don't like. I'll have days. I was looking forward to activity

spk_0 at rain and all these little inconveniences are ones I learned to deal with. It keeps fun

spk_0 enough and the relationship is strong enough that it makes it all okay. Right? But I'm a big fan

spk_0 of the, the guy who wrote the black swan, I'm getting the same right, it talks about interfragility.

spk_0 Yeah. Is that, tell me, tell me. Yeah. Is that if we act like professional, we will develop, I think

spk_0 if you want your kid not to be sad, you need them to have moments of sadness and get on the other

spk_0 side of it. If you make sadness, the ultimate theme to be feared, when they finally do experience

spk_0 it later in life, they will see it as maybe even an existential threat. As opposed to, oh,

spk_0 I've been sad before and I know I can come out the other side of it.

spk_0 Yeah. Right? I really just believe that having evidence that you can have a difficulty and

spk_0 be made better for it. In fact, the definition of interfragility is those things that are

spk_0 stressful and stressful that make a system better. So immune systems or muscles or bones or the

spk_0 human spirit are things that are antipragile. I have a very practical question. One of my favorite

spk_0 academic papers about camp is a randomized trial of trying to get boys at a sleep boy camp to

spk_0 brush their teeth. And they found that if you, if you limited swim time, unless they had proven

spk_0 that they brush their teeth, that encouraged tooth brushing. Is my kid going to brush his teeth at

spk_0 camp? Please say yes. Yes. No, look, we have learned there are very small handful of things that

spk_0 cannot be forgiven. A parent will forgive of a eight year old boy wears the same shirt three days

spk_0 in a row. They're not going to forgive if they were the same pair of underwear three days.

spk_0 If they don't shower the week, moms get a notice, right? So it's not just that it's the right

spk_0 thing to do to teach them responsibility. It's that that's a baseline of care. We've got to make

spk_0 sure they're healthy and safe. And part of that is basic hygiene. Okay. I'm relieved. So I have one

spk_0 last question, which is you've been doing this for for 30 years. Yeah. What are the biggest

spk_0 changes over time, either in kids or or parents? I think one of the big trends is

spk_0 back to the protect and provide versus prepare. I think we've dialed down preparation, dialed

spk_0 up protection. I think I could say that with absolute certainty. I'll also say that the level

spk_0 of professionalism in camps have gone way way up. Yeah. When I came to the industry 30 years ago,

spk_0 if you looked at brochure, it was like a card of a cruise line. We've got archery, we've got

spk_0 canoeing, here are the activities we do. And it might be 24 pages, 22 of which is here's stuff you

spk_0 get to do. Now a well-crafted message about campus, here are the hero role models we're going to

spk_0 have as counselors. Here's what your child's going to learn. Here are values and our camps,

spk_0 responsibility, respect, reaching out, reasonable risk and resilience. The four or five hours,

spk_0 depending on if it's the camp in Texas or the Camp in North Carolina. So there is an overall sort

spk_0 of youth development, professionalism that has come in. You'll not be surprised to have camp

spk_0 directors who know who Emily Oster is, as opposed to just who's like a really, really good person

spk_0 to teach the breaststroke. Right. So I think we've just really elevated our game in terms of

spk_0 creating safe, healthy environments that enable kids to grow.

spk_0 Thank you, Steve. Tell people where they can find you if they're dying to send their kids to

spk_0 your camp. Okay. Well, one camp is called Camp Champions. It's outside of Austin, Texas.

spk_0 Other one is called Camp Penical. It is outside of Asheville and the day camp is in

spk_0 Sheridan, Massachusetts. But either camp who welcome you to come to the website and send us an

spk_0 email and if you're interested in camp, we recommend it. But also I'm an incoming chair of the

spk_0 American Campus Association. So what I want to say to anyone here is find a camp that's right for you.

spk_0 Not all camps, camps are more expensive than I'd like it to be because you have to make a whole

spk_0 year's worth of work done in seven, eight, nine weeks. But there are there's a whole array of

spk_0 costs of camp and there are camps like for everybody. It might be a math camp for a budding young

spk_0 PhD. Might be a math camp. Might be a math camp. Might be a music camp. Might just be a regular camp in

spk_0 the woods. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Steve. I really appreciate it. And thank you, Emily,

spk_0 for being a voice to talk with camp. And I will thank you one other thing. I'm not sure I'd have

spk_0 had the courage to run camp in 2020 if it weren't for the conversation I'd head with you and other people.

spk_0 Well, I'm sure the kids really, really appreciated that. Oh, as did the counselors. There was a sanity

spk_0 saver.

spk_0 It's going to be all right.

spk_0 Special thanks to the Falcon Camp in Carrollton, Ohio for so generously inviting us to record

spk_0 their day and their awesome campers. Parent data is produced by Tamara Avishai with support from

spk_0 the parent data team and PRX. If you have thoughts on this episode, please join the conversation on

spk_0 my Instagram at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to support the show, become a subscriber to the

spk_0 parent data newsletter at parentdata.org where I write weekly posts on everything to do with parents

spk_0 and data to help you make better, more informed parenting decisions. For example, earlier this year,

spk_0 we published an article titled A Data Driven Approach to Summer Camp, which not only tackles the

spk_0 data about the importance of camp, like we talked about today with Steve, but also helps to manage

spk_0 all the logistics. One word labels. Iron on, press on, just labels. Read all about it at parentdata.org.

spk_0 There are a lot of ways you can help people find out about us. Leave a rating or review on Apple

spk_0 Piecast. Text your friend about something you learned from this episode. Debate your mother in

spk_0 law about the merits of something parents do now that is totally different from what she did.

spk_0 Post a story to your Instagram to be bunking a panic headline of your own. Just remember to

spk_0 mention the podcast too. Right Penelope? Right Mom? We'll see you next time.

spk_0 Oh, I can't wait to hear it at campfire if it sounds this awesome already.

spk_0 From PRX.

Episode Feature: How Camp Teaches Kids to Ditch Their Phones

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