Technology
Episode 157 - October 3, 2025
In Episode 157 of Biotech Hangout, the hosts discuss the recent developments in the biotech industry, including President Trump's new healthcare initiatives and their implications for drug pricin...
Episode 157 - October 3, 2025
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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You're listening to Biotech Hangout,
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a live and unadvied weekly discussion
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of all the latest news on our industry
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with a group of biotech insiders.
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I'm Eric Schmidt and my co-host today are Sam Fizzelli,
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Brian Scorney and your own Werber.
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For more information about our hosts and guest speakers,
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we're to listen to the most recent episode.
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Please go to biotechhangout.com.
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All right, guys, quite the wonderful week.
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It feels like in Biotech with the XBI
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breaking out into new ground.
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And maybe the beginnings of a true bull market type
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rally here.
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The news flow as we'll talk about was a little bit more mixed,
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at least on a fundamental side.
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We didn't have the best of data releases,
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but let's start with the macro,
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which I think is really the bigger news of the week.
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And Sam, perhaps you can introduce everything that's going on
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with Trump, the White House, MFN, pricing tariffs, et cetera.
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Yeah, thanks, Eric.
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It was quite an event that we, I'm sure pretty much everybody
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has watched it.
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We had Albert Burla, all the key healthcare figures
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within the administration.
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And of course, President Trump,
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so the CEO of Pfizer and President Trump,
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presenting essentially the first of what
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is expected to be many or at least several deals
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between farmer companies and the administration.
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And the likelihood is that they are going to have
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this pretty much the same template.
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And we characterize this at our end as a win, win,
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and the lose situation.
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And I think we'll probably almost certainly talk about all of that.
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So the win pretty much comes from the farmer industry
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and the president.
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Although, of course, all of these things
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depend on the absolute details that we get to.
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But a couple of things that we pretty much
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with Tibet was a very drunkenian,
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most favored nation pricing strategy,
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which was good to see that didn't come to fruition.
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And also the 100% tariffs that the president had announced
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to come in force on the 1st of October,
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where obviously put Tibet because these deals
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are starting to roll out.
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So that's great news.
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And of course, as you can see from the share price reactions,
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in general, the market and investors have seen this
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as positive for the farmer industry.
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So what did we get?
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We got President Trump got essentially two key targets
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of what he was looking for.
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One is all drugs sold in the US should be made in the US.
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I think a lot of farmer companies were already going down that route.
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So that's great.
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And I think a vast majority of drugs are already manufacturing
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in the US.
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Of course, we can all then discuss what does that mean
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to be in verticomers manufacturing in the US?
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Where does that decision gets made?
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In terms of is it filling finish?
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Is it the final product?
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Is it where is it?
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So let's leave that to discussion later.
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We get some job increases.
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And this is culminated over the past few months
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in what we've tottered up to be about $432 billion of ledges
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by farmer companies and some large biotechs,
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which of course include ongoing R&D, ongoing pap X,
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and some new manufacturing facilities, et cetera.
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The US gets a possibility of at least
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aligning non-US prices closer to the US
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when we're going to see how that would work.
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Interestingly, I was just on a call with a UK physician,
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POL earlier today.
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And I asked him, if I gave a US survey of block prices in the UK,
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would you be able to fill it?
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Would you be able to fill it?
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And he said, well, no.
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Because nobody really knows what the prices are in each area
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has got its own situation.
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And in fact, a lot of farmers are allowed
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to give out the net prices that they pay.
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So that's interesting as to where these calculations
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are going to be made.
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Nevertheless, that is a positive.
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And I think farmer companies are almost certainly
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going to end up launching every product,
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not the majority, which has been the case.
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First in the US now, because you want to set the price there
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and go and hope that the Europeans and other countries
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pay their fair share.
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And it seems like the majority of the impact
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is going to be on Medicaid and Medicare.
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I wouldn't call it an impact, because I think what we're going
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to end up with is actually potentially more volume
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going through these various channels, particularly
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the director consumer channels.
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And let's see how that all pans out.
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And lastly, so those are wins for the administration,
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win for the farmer industry.
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I'm sure there's a lot more detailed folks
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I'm going to talk about in a minute.
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The lose is Europe.
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And the lose is in this form.
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If you have lost your product in the US at a price X,
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you go to Europe and say I'm very sorry,
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but you've got to have to pay at least the net price
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equivalent of X.
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So let's say that's a 30% discount, not 70%, not 70%,
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80%, not 60%.
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And Europe goes, OK, fine.
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I'm going to increase my drug budget, which
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is great for farmer number one.
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No, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do.
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I'm not going to increase my drug budgets.
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I'm going to accept your price, but I'm going to have
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to restrict the drug even more.
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So that's another lose.
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And that's, again, good for farmer,
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because they get the higher margin, even if the volume is lower.
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And then it gets the same revenue.
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And then, of course, the other one is, which is the worst case
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scenario, which doesn't really account
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that there's a win for farmer, but certainly a lose for European
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setup and patience, is that they go, no, actually,
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we don't want the drug.
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Now, in some cases, I think that might happen.
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I think if you had a situation,
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I'm not particularly picking on say oral surge,
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but let's say the oral surge come along
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with essentially a major convenience factor, which
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will translate to better patient adherence,
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and of course longer term, better outcomes.
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But let's say that's welcome.
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And the companies are going, well,
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the competition is essentially generic.
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So we're going to have to be a lot higher price.
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And I think that's the sort of situation
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where we're going to have to think about how
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to be modeled that going forward.
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So let me leave it at that.
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And Eric, you can bring in everyone
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to see how they want to.
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Yeah, wonderful recap.
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Thanks.
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And I should have also introduced Brad Lunkard.
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I didn't realize Brad was going to be joining us as a speaker
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as well, but welcome, Brad.
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For the broader group following Sam's terrific recap,
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is this a win-win win?
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Are we kind of done now with this massive macro overhang
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around drug pricing that's really been weighing on the group?
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Or are we still worried about something else coming into the fore?
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Well, I think in today, these days,
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you should always expect the unexpected.
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So I wouldn't say it's a guarantee of smooth sailing going
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forward.
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But I do think it was a genius move by Burla.
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And if you see some like Wall Street Journal reporting,
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it seems clear that this is something
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that he and Pfizer did on their own.
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This wasn't a coordinated negotiation
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by the industry, so to speak, or all the other major companies.
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I really think that he's in a unique position.
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I think that Albert Burla is arguably the only pharmacy
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who really has like name recognition and gravitas
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with the general public, given how visible he was during COVID.
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And just the way he literally tweets and continues
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to kind of speak publicly these days,
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I think that most people don't know who the other big pharmacies
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are.
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So I think it had a little bit of an element of gravitas
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to the announcement because of who he is.
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And I agree with everything that Sam said,
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and I think that he basically gave away almost nothing,
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and he gave Trump the political victory that he needed.
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And I think that's really the definition of a great deal.
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And now, Pfizer and arguably our industry,
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if all of the other company, Science Similar deals,
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have a little bit of pressure off for the next few years,
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and can worry less about legacy products
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and focus on investing and the revenue streams
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that new products are going to have.
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So I think it was a good deal for our industry.
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I think he was the right person to do it.
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I think he was arguably the only person
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that could have gone first in this way.
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So my biggest reaction to all of that
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was like, thank you Albert Burla for basically doing all of us
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a big favor and also scoring our industry a PR win
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to the public, making us all look like what we should be
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trying to look like that we're trying to do things
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to help people out there.
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So I thought it was a truly a great news item for all of us.
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Brian, you're on, what's the impact on biotech?
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We mentioned that the XBI is breaking out into new levels.
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We haven't seen, I think, really since 2001,
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are we in a biotech full market
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or generalists gonna be interested
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with some of this new slow binders?
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I think we're in, I think we're certainly in a rotation
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to biotech.
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I mean, it just seems like over the last couple of weeks,
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there's been this awakening to healthcare being,
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kind of a very valuable undervalued sector
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amongst a lot of overvalued sectors.
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And that's sort of bled into biotech,
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which has been arguably one of the bigger underperformers
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in healthcare, which is one of the biggest underperforming
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sectors over the last few years.
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So it certainly feels like at minimal,
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somewhat of a reversion to more of normalcy.
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I mean, it's hard to say bull market, right?
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I mean, it's definitely a two month bull market
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relative to where we are, but it's still a relative
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bear market to where we are in a performance basis
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via screen back to like 2020, of course.
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But it does feel different, right?
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I mean, to Brad's comment, I mean,
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I tend to agree like you always expect the unexpected,
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particularly with this administration,
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but it does seem like we're in a bit of an environment
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where like good news is good news and bad news is good news.
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And people are using any reason to sort of be,
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at least a little more invested in the sector.
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How durable is that going to be?
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You know, I think there's a long way to go just to revert
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to sort of more of a normal valuation basis
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across a lot of these names.
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So, you know, will it, will we go into like really
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the fanfare of a bull market?
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I think that remains to be seen,
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but there's still a lot of upside
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even if it doesn't go into that type of dynamic.
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Yeah, I mean, I totally agree.
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So I'm, and I'm sure you guys can all back me up.
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I'm happy to announce that we're getting
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in generalist in-bounds, and which is unusual.
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And these are real generalists.
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Like not the biotech sort of fringe generalist,
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but real generalists were calling,
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not knowing a lot about the sector.
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The feedback we're getting is that
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interest rates are going to come down.
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They're getting a little bit worried
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that tech cycle is going to start ending
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at some point sooner than later,
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or in the horizon now,
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and they're rotating to the next risk level
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in the next alpha generator.
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And that's for them is biotech.
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And they're into look at interesting names,
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like an ionist, like Argenics, like these UCBs,
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they're sort of fresh new names for people to look at now.
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To your point, Brian, so I'd argue that Eric,
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I remember when I was growing up under you, right?
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We had to be stock pickers,
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and we wanted to be an environment where we're useful.
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What we mean by that is that companies
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that had good values, X and up,
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they had the thin workout companies actually went down,
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and things actually acted rationally.
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And I would argue we're finally back to that level.
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Hard to say that we're in a bull.
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Good, I think we're just sort of a, you know,
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we're finally back to value recognition.
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And we're still underperforming.
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You know, our trackers in the beginning of the year said,
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we're gonna underperform the market
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and we should be flat for the year.
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So I think we're tracking back to that flat year over year,
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which is sort of where we think we should be for this year,
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and then hopefully next year is a better year.
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It's funny, you said that,
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you're on, I still get a lot of chiding from my friends
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who read that Wall Street Journal quote,
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that you just referenced a mind from 20 years ago.
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I said, you know, companies that had good news
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had their stocks go up and those that had bad news
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had their stocks go down.
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It was a genius piece of insight on my part.
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And I'm glad you remembered as well.
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But it still works.
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I mean, you're right.
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Go ahead, Bernie Sam.
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Yeah, just just sorry,
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I don't want to take that to a conversation with,
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but in terms of what is still yet to be worked out is,
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and I don't know whether you guys have got this sust or not,
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but I'm not quite sure we're special to drugs
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sitting in the middle of all this,
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in terms of even the new launchers having to be priced
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at whatever MFN will be,
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which is kind of decided by US pricing.
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I don't know.
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And I also wonder just a throwaway comment here.
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Now that RFK has shaken hands without Budberla,
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do we think the heat is off mRNA vaccines
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or is that too much wishful thinking?
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Those are those are great points things
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that we need to keep in mind as we look forward.
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Yeah, I mean, from where I stand,
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you're on, you must be a more popular guy than I,
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because I haven't gotten a lot of general's calls.
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We've gotten a couple of all I will say.
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And even that is a sea change in optimism,
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getting any calls I'd say from general's
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is something that we're not used to in the last six to 12 months.
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And then Brian, you made some really perceptive comments.
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I hope that we're in a glass half full environment,
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but I also worry that things are changing so quickly
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that we may start to see even aggressive post-sering
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where data sets don't only receive the benefit of the doubt,
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but they get all of the doubt,
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where by side or start believing everything
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the management teams tell them when markets,
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trees grow to the sky,
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grow to the sky in terms of market opportunities,
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where all political headlines is dismissed
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as just being just that.
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So there's a fine line, I think,
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between optimism and pessimism.
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And unfortunately, I don't know that we've handled that line
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very well historically in our sector.
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I feel like we're always on one or the other side of it,
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and we just can't help ourselves due to other factors,
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but hopefully this time it'll be a little bit different.
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Well, it's probably Eric to your comment.
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I'm, there's no way I'm more popular than you.
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I think it's purely probably a function of what we cover, perhaps.
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And so the names that are resonating
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and maybe that's kind of what's getting traction.
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And look, this is the new tranche of innovators, right?
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That are, frankly, at this point,
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and not even new.
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So we're talking about like the organics, the UCBs,
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IONIS is the sort of the new kid on the block now
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that's resonating with people.
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Yeah, terrific Smith Cap, innovative growth stories
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that are just turning that, that cusp
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into profitability as well, which literally will,
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I think help the XBI going forward.
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But let's some, let's turn our attention
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to maybe some of the other headlines from the week.
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And there was a little bit of chatter
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and controversy coming out of the FDA.
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Brian, you want to start us off on that?
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Oh, yeah, this is kind of a fun story to kind of follow.
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So earlier this week, Dr. George Tidmarsh,
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who was recently appointed head of the FDA Cedar,
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this is the center for drug evaluation and research.
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This is the center that really reviews
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most of the drugs that got approved by the FDA.
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He put a posting on LinkedIn, indicating that Cedar
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will be looking at surrogate endpoints,
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used for FDA approval, and criticizing some of the failures
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to confirm that have excited the axon skipping drugs.
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So there's like Sireptus Exxon is 51.
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And I think we all know at this point,
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this has been one of the biggest sources
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of criticism for accelerated approval,
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bestriding particular, but the other axon skippers as well.
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But he also interestingly took specific aim
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at a drug called Luke Kindness or Vocalis Sporin
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for the treatment of Lupus Nefritus,
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saying that it has significant toxicity
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and it has not been shown to provide a clinical,
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a direct clinical benefit for patients.
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So this kind of odd because
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Lufa Kindness actually has full approval
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based on a 52 week randomized placebo controlled study.
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And I guess one could reach for an argument
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that a complete renal response
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is not a direct clinical benefit,
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but a measure of UPCR and DGFR improvements together.
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So in the world of, but in the world of approved drugs,
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that really having confirmed a clinical benefit,
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I would say this is very, very far from an egregious case study
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for a very senior FDA official to be citing.
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At least from the information that's publicly available.
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Now Adam Fierstein at Stat Road Disapparuss
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definitely coming around through the biotech-thosoph channels
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this week because Tidmarsh was actually once the CEO
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of a company called LaHoya Pharmaceuticals,
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but resigned in 2019 when Kevin Tang
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from Tang Capital, who's the largest shareholder
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in chairman of LaHoya at the time,
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was quoted in the PR announcing Tidmarsh's departure.
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Notably, the largest shareholder of Eurenia,
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at least as the last filing is Tang Capital as well.
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So once this all started to kind of blow up,
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Tidmarsh went up to leading the post saying
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that it did not reflect the views of the FDA or HHS.
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Eurenia also issued a press release title
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of Eurenia response to now retracted LinkedIn post
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and that PR just reiterated that had received
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full approval from the FDA.
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So those are kind of the facts there.
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And in the background, everyone's sort of like
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scratching their head, what was the relationship
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back in the day between George Tidmarsh and Kevin Tang
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back at LaHoya?
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Are there any implications to such an odd citation
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from his LinkedIn profile as a critique
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of accelerated approval here?
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And obviously, this is kind of implications for
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sort of the scientific rigor at the FDA.
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And I know we all have different opinions
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of the level of chaos that this current FDA currently has,
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but we'd love to hear any thoughts from you guys on that.
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Yeah, we can go on the chaos in just a moment.
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Eurone, did you want also note the IO biotech news?
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Yeah, so IO bio, you know, also this is a cancer vaccine
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that's fairly unique.
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They had amazing phase one slash two data.
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They're targeting Iodone PD1, PDL1.
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And it's not a controlled study
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out of one center in Europe, but really,
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sort of like just sucks out of data.
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And they did a phase three that just read out,
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a lot of the KWL feedback is that the study
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was a little underpowered and it looks like that was probably
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right.
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I mean, they just missed.
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It was .06 on PFS.
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Survival obviously was underpowered,
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but trending in the right direction.
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So interesting, you know, tidbits in the data
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is too in which population it works.
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This is frontline melanoma, by the way.
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And so they went to FDA,
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I mean, very, very safe, by the way,
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on top of on top of Kichurdo and showed better data
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and you would have expected on Kichurdo alone.
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And obviously it's a controlled study.
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In any event, remember, this was an important case study
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just given some of what Seiber has said in the past.
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Admittedly, there were more skeptical about PFSs
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and end point and vaccines, but admittedly was more
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on the MRNA vaccine.
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And there was a question whether they'll be able to file
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because they literally just missed
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and whether they'll be flexibility.
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And the answer was from FDA was no,
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you need to run another study.
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So we're, you know, the next test cases potentially
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going to be, and we're going to talk about this shortly.
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At Esmo, we're going to see data from Zanza in CRC
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face to be data from ex-Alexis.
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And that's going to drive questions about
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what to expect from studies were in most of the patients
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who come in from XUS.
spk_0
But FDA is continuing.
spk_0
We're all trying to figure out what is this new flexibility
spk_0
going to do from FDA.
spk_0
And it's not necessarily going to be that easy to call.
spk_0
It's kind of what we're seeing on our side.
spk_0
It's kind of been, there's flexibility,
spk_0
but it's not always what you expect.
spk_0
You're on real quick.
spk_0
I just want to echo what you said and say that
spk_0
my personal take for what it's worth, which is nothing,
spk_0
is that I think the FDA made the wrong call here.
spk_0
I've visited this company in Denmark
spk_0
and also interviewed her shortly after the data
spk_0
came out.
spk_0
And the person running this company,
spk_0
my my Britzzoka, is a very serious researcher.
spk_0
So this is definitely not a case of like, you know,
spk_0
a high PCO who's like whipping up, you know,
spk_0
investor, fervor to get something approved
spk_0
that should not get approved.
spk_0
I mean, this barely missed, as you said.
spk_0
And I think this is an example of like P value worship
spk_0
that's not in the best interest of science or patience.
spk_0
And I understand why the FDA might not want to make precedence
spk_0
or, you know, really vary widely on how different things,
spk_0
you know, are treated maybe in different ways.
spk_0
But to me, this would have been a classic example of,
spk_0
if you really look at this and say,
spk_0
is there a signal going on here?
spk_0
You know, maybe this deserves an accelerated approval
spk_0
while we take the years that it takes
spk_0
to run another study to see if it could confirm or not.
spk_0
To me, it's a great example of what would have been
spk_0
the utility of something like that.
spk_0
So obviously that was a close call of, you know,
spk_0
a tough decision of the FDA to make.
spk_0
Brian mentioned the chaotic LinkedIn release
spk_0
from from George Tiedemann.
spk_0
Marsh, it's good to know that I'm not the only one here
spk_0
who doesn't know how to use social media.
spk_0
There was also a case of a drug being rejected
spk_0
a Fortress biodegrad for MEG-Kase disease
spk_0
based on another CMC issue.
spk_0
They received a CRL.
spk_0
So by my count, we've had ultra-genic spyagens,
spk_0
Colorado and now Fortress all getting relatively recent
spk_0
CRLs and orphaned pediatric indications
spk_0
that, you know, these are all drugs
spk_0
that probably should have been approved.
spk_0
So the bigger question is, how are we feeling about the FDA?
spk_0
How would you guys rate this leadership team
spk_0
and its ability to execute?
spk_0
Well, can we just double click the meat?
spk_0
We've talked about this in the past and ultra-genics.
spk_0
And ultra-genics, this is UX111 gene therapy for MPS3,
spk_0
San Felipe syndrome.
spk_0
And remember, this was going to be the first test case
spk_0
under C-Burs, which was really Peter Marx
spk_0
as accelerated approval pathway.
spk_0
They got a CRL because of a few sort of
spk_0
idiosacratic manufacturing related
spk_0
number of temperature probes they needed to do and shipping.
spk_0
The FDA actually came out and said,
spk_0
so this is what we mean by interesting
spk_0
the way they ended up handling it.
spk_0
They said on the clinical side, the data looks really good
spk_0
and it's acceptable, not for accelerated approval,
spk_0
but for full approval based on the data,
spk_0
which was single arm, not controlled against historical
spk_0
control and based on the benefit from baseline.
spk_0
So they skirted the whole question of an accelerated
spk_0
approval, but they showed flexibility and potentially
spk_0
proven them done the line in efficacy,
spk_0
but they got to work out through the manufacturing issue.
spk_0
So kind of very co-evocal sort of how to read that.
spk_0
Yeah, I guess my point you're wrong was we got three,
spk_0
sorry, four CRLs all due to CMC.
spk_0
So again, biogen, ultra-genics is you referenced
spk_0
in detail, scholar rock and now four chris.
spk_0
It seems like a lot.
spk_0
I mean, it just seems like we're not getting through
spk_0
the workflow that we need to have happen on a CMC standpoint,
spk_0
which really shouldn't be that hard for some of these
spk_0
indication biogen, stroke, spend rosas already approved
spk_0
for God's sakes.
spk_0
So I was just referencing maybe some execution
spk_0
the steps there, but again, the bigger question is how
spk_0
you guys feel about leadership.
spk_0
Good point, good point on that.
spk_0
Yeah, especially on Spinaraza, good point.
spk_0
No one wants to pick up that potato.
spk_0
Go ahead, Brian.
spk_0
I'm not great.
spk_0
Look, I mean, I think, you know, I've been saying this
spk_0
all year and I think this is sort of like a top-down issue,
spk_0
is there just seems to be chaos and inconsistency, right?
spk_0
I think the problem is there seems to be a huge gap
spk_0
between, you know, in sort of like inused
spk_0
syncratic decisions on safety and efficacy on applications,
spk_0
where sometimes there's this enormous level of flexibility
spk_0
and other times there just seems to be no flexibility at all
spk_0
and it just doesn't seem consistent.
spk_0
And look, I mean, I think, you know, it's complicated
spk_0
probably by, you know, the different views in HHS, right?
spk_0
And I know we've talked about Vanille before,
spk_0
but like, like, Vanille seems like such an odd duck
spk_0
to have in this administration, where he, you know,
spk_0
classically is, you know, I think perceived by most people
spk_0
as an over-regulator, someone who would be, you know,
spk_0
all in on having a very powerful FDA
spk_0
to really demand high level safety and efficacy studies,
spk_0
but at the same time, you know, Marty McCarty goes out there
spk_0
and just talks about like, you know, looking at just
spk_0
pre-clinical data and maybe approving things just based
spk_0
on AI.
spk_0
So there is this disparity and it's very hard, I think,
spk_0
to, from an industry perspective, to kind of hone in and say,
spk_0
oh, this is sort of the level of out of evidence
spk_0
that one needs for an approval.
spk_0
And I think because, because of that inconsistency,
spk_0
it becomes quite art, right?
spk_0
And I think more and more, and this is not just a criticism
spk_0
of the administration, but the prior administration,
spk_0
the administration before that, there's more and more
spk_0
of a demand to try to characterize who is the person
spk_0
who has ultimate power to sign an action letter
spk_0
and will, you know, what's their opinion relative
spk_0
to the review division and what's their boss's opinion
spk_0
relative to their opinion because these things have mattered
spk_0
more and more where one person will feel fine
spk_0
with just overturning everyone else
spk_0
below them's decision on something.
spk_0
And I think that's been a concerning trend
spk_0
that's been going on for, you know, a decade or more.
spk_0
I think you're right.
spk_0
This administration, this leadership team
spk_0
at the FDA did not start that sort of top-down inclination
spk_0
to overrule senior staff members.
spk_0
And that trend has been ongoing for a while,
spk_0
but it does seem like it's potentially accelerated
spk_0
in the last few months, if not years.
spk_0
And we're seeing more and more two-tiering of systems
spk_0
at the FDA where the top brass have an idea
spk_0
where they wanna go and what they wanna do.
spk_0
Maybe it's more politically motivated.
spk_0
Maybe it's higher level policy stuff,
spk_0
but they haven't spent the time to bring along
spk_0
the senior staffers underneath them to their views.
spk_0
So the senior staffers are continuing to conduct reviews.
spk_0
They're continuing to be very, I'd say, rigorous
spk_0
and conscientious in their workflow,
spk_0
but often it doesn't really matter.
spk_0
And that seems to be, you know,
spk_0
somewhat problematic your own.
spk_0
You reference just how hard it is to read this agency.
spk_0
I sense that that may be part of the problem.
spk_0
Okay, well, let's move on to some of the big company news
spk_0
the week.
spk_0
We had yet another meaningful merger
spk_0
and acquisition to this week.
spk_0
I think it's now five straight weeks
spk_0
of meaningful deal flow in biotechnology.
spk_0
In this case, it was one larger biotech,
spk_0
a gen-map buying a midsize biotech in Maris.
spk_0
The acquisition was valued at about $8 billion,
spk_0
about a 41% premium to where Maris had been trading.
spk_0
And the asset here, of course,
spk_0
is Maris' Peta's EMPTIMAB.
spk_0
It's a bi-specific candidate that hits EGFR
spk_0
and LGR5 directed at patients with head and neck cancer.
spk_0
The product, Peta's EMPTIMAB is in two phase three studies,
spk_0
one for first line and one for second line,
spk_0
and head and neck cancer.
spk_0
And Gen-map has talked about also doing additional trials
spk_0
in earlier stages of disease.
spk_0
The other derivative impact here is the company
spk_0
that we're involved with by CARA was up even more
spk_0
than Maris' week to date.
spk_0
By CARA is up almost 50%.
spk_0
I think Maris is up about 37%.
spk_0
What's interesting about that is that by CARA
spk_0
is Maris' chief competitor.
spk_0
So you might want to ask,
spk_0
how can the competitor that didn't get acquired
spk_0
or performed or outperform the company that did get acquired?
spk_0
I think there's a lot of sense from investors
spk_0
that there's heated strategic interest in head and neck cancer,
spk_0
a tumor type that really hasn't seen much innovation before.
spk_0
I think now there's some discussion also
spk_0
that there might be other interested parties
spk_0
and strategic transactions that by CARA can benefit from.
spk_0
And even before the Maris news,
spk_0
by CARA was getting the short end of the stick
spk_0
from investors it had about 1-8th,
spk_0
the valuation of Maris.
spk_0
So maybe not surprising to see that disparity
spk_0
and valuation close at least a little bit.
spk_0
But I don't know, Sam or your owner,
spk_0
do you guys want to add into this discussion?
spk_0
Yeah, sure.
spk_0
Look, it's one of the I think questions
spk_0
that you immediately asked me to say
spk_0
is why did many of the larger
spk_0
far more companies do this?
spk_0
And of course, it doesn't matter from the cell side,
spk_0
the dollars that GenMaps paying,
spk_0
I'm sure as just as valuable as the dollars
spk_0
that a large pharma company would have paid.
spk_0
The interesting thing, of course, here is that I'm sure
spk_0
you've got your view of by CARA and by CARA's data.
spk_0
We do view the Maris data as more broadly
spk_0
applicable in the patient population,
spk_0
having a look at the HPV1 negative HPV1,
spk_0
positive patients, et cetera.
spk_0
But the question therefore ends up being,
spk_0
what happens if somebody with deeper pockets
spk_0
or broad shoulders does come out and take up by CARA?
spk_0
What does that mean for GenMap in terms of marketing
spk_0
this product in the longer term?
spk_0
So those are questions that are that you know,
spk_0
I'd be interested to see what you guys think.
spk_0
The data, we could debate the data, right?
spk_0
At the end of the day, they're not directly comparable,
spk_0
different follow-up periods, et cetera.
spk_0
So it's harder to make it a hard judgment on this.
spk_0
And of course, GenMap could have gone and taken out by CARA,
spk_0
but I think the calculation they made
spk_0
is that they need something that's going to be on the market
spk_0
by 2027.
spk_0
And I'm not sure that that is the case for by CARA.
spk_0
So that's the read I've got.
spk_0
And of course, the sense that we got from our valuations
spk_0
in those sort of companies, I've said,
spk_0
is that the colorackable opportunity here
spk_0
is kind of not really in the calculations.
spk_0
And that's an upside as is probably
spk_0
some of the earlier uses of the drug.
spk_0
So I'd love to hear what you're own
spk_0
and you guys think on that comparative efficacy
spk_0
and the risk to GenMap now that it's going to be a competitor
spk_0
to whoever takes by CARA out,
spk_0
if somebody takes by CARA out.
spk_0
Yes, we go ahead, Eric.
spk_0
Nope, not all year, you're wrong.
spk_0
Well, we cover GenMap.
spk_0
So GenMap, we give them a lot of credit.
spk_0
There's a smart team.
spk_0
The challenge in biotech is you and it's like the incredible.
spk_0
Right?
spk_0
Remember when I forget the sun runs and he's like first
spk_0
and then the dad yells at him to be second.
spk_0
In biotech, when you're so successful,
spk_0
in this case, it stars Alex, you know,
spk_0
eventually that party will end.
spk_0
And it's very hard to offset that royalty stream.
spk_0
And so they're really trying and getting aggressive.
spk_0
The deal is definitely not cheap.
spk_0
And our colleague Tara was extremely bullish here on Miris
spk_0
and she had a great call.
spk_0
And the GenMap side, they're taking on a tremendous amount
spk_0
of debt just between the interest expense
spk_0
they're accruing and the loss of interest income from cash
spk_0
is about 430 million recalculate annually.
spk_0
So it's fairly, it's fairly dilutive
spk_0
because you're taking up X on top of it.
spk_0
So it's going to be meaningfully diluted for two years.
spk_0
And then the data looks really, really strong.
spk_0
And as you said, Eric, there's a question of why is
spk_0
biocara undervalued?
spk_0
And because the data doesn't look necessarily that different.
spk_0
Where I think we're something we're both bullish
spk_0
in this area.
spk_0
On the GenMap side, it's a huge bet
spk_0
because at this point, they are fully levered
spk_0
and there's no room to do anything else.
spk_0
And it just kind of tells you that for good assets,
spk_0
you still have to absolutely pay top dollar.
spk_0
This plus the other things that they've done
spk_0
really starts moving them away
spk_0
from that Darza Lex cliff, especially if a Kinley works.
spk_0
But they took a lot of risk, which we'll see
spk_0
if your planning depends on.
spk_0
Very quickly, I'll just add and say,
spk_0
I think this, I give them credit for being aggressive,
spk_0
but I do think it's riskier than is being talked about
spk_0
because nobody knows definitively
spk_0
what the response rate of Pembro is in this setting.
spk_0
We've never seen real randomized data.
spk_0
And until we see a randomized phase three study
spk_0
with this asset or other assets,
spk_0
this is a classic example of where IO has really surprised people
spk_0
once you actually do randomized trials.
spk_0
So I think that's a risk.
spk_0
And then commercially, maybe why did a big firm
spk_0
a company not step in here?
spk_0
This is a classic case where in today's day and age,
spk_0
there's literally 100 Chinese companies
spk_0
that will sell you one of these for pennies.
spk_0
If you are a little more patient and have the scale
spk_0
and all of that to be, to not worry
spk_0
about not being first to market and all of that.
spk_0
And eventually making it further on down the line.
spk_0
So I think it's risky for those two reasons as well.
spk_0
Good points, Brad.
spk_0
What about the broader theme here, guys?
spk_0
We have seen substantial M&A each week this fall
spk_0
for now four or five weeks running.
spk_0
Is there something underfoot here, a real trend?
spk_0
Or is this just kind of dumb luck
spk_0
and random clustering of news releases?
spk_0
Brian, you have a thought on that?
spk_0
I mean, I have a tendency to think it's a little random,
spk_0
but I think people will really push back on me on that
spk_0
and say, you know, it's farm is sort of waking up
spk_0
to the valuations starting to move
spk_0
and trying to take the opportunity to get in
spk_0
before they move too much.
spk_0
But I've always found it kind of hard to find more than just
spk_0
and a little bit of an idiot saying
spk_0
Cratic Nature to win M&A's.
spk_0
A car outside of one, it's like a particularly big area
spk_0
that farmer has a cute demand for, like I remember,
spk_0
Hepsie, there were just a lot of M&A's going on there.
spk_0
You know, maybe in the GLP1 space,
spk_0
you see a little bit of it now,
spk_0
but outside of that, I guess I'm calling me one
spk_0
of the more skeptical people that this is like
spk_0
a open door of M&A that's starting to occur.
spk_0
Eric, just, that's not forget though.
spk_0
I mean, I'm not going to disagree with Brian
spk_0
because I'm not sure if there's a crystal ball
spk_0
that anyone has.
spk_0
I mean, every year that we started, I think, Tim
spk_0
or any banker would tell you,
spk_0
I have a great book of M&A coming up.
spk_0
And of course, this is like the third year
spk_0
that the first half was slow and then,
spk_0
and then it the first quarter and then it really picked up.
spk_0
So, but you do have people looking into the horizon
spk_0
at lower rates, right?
spk_0
So the opportunity for refinancing down the road
spk_0
can be meaningful at a lower rate.
spk_0
And of course, nobody knows what that rate would be.
spk_0
And at the same time, as a general,
spk_0
you can't just keep waiting until rates actually hit
spk_0
like 2% or whatever it is they're heading to
spk_0
because they have this cliff and they had to do something, right?
spk_0
Was this the right asset or not?
spk_0
Brats, point is good, although I,
spk_0
I'm going to try and get that answer for you, Brad.
spk_0
Are people paying just pennies for assets out of China?
spk_0
I doubt it.
spk_0
I've got the numbers.
spk_0
One, they'll add them up and send them to you.
spk_0
I don't know, right?
spk_0
The point is that isn't a risk,
spk_0
but at the end of the day,
spk_0
this is one, the cost of capital should be getting lower.
spk_0
You can't wait for the day that it happens,
spk_0
but at least you can plan forward like that.
spk_0
So there's one element there that could be driving some of this.
spk_0
And of course, more certain things coming back
spk_0
into this pricing environment, the tariff situation,
spk_0
which I think as time passed,
spk_0
people got more and more comfortable with it.
spk_0
And of course, the Albert Burla
spk_0
and the administration conversation
spk_0
kind of put a cap on that.
spk_0
So perhaps there's some of that,
spk_0
although Jen Mavam sure had made up its mind
spk_0
way before that the announcement from Pfizer
spk_0
and the administration.
spk_0
Well, it's also, you know, this is nothing new, right?
spk_0
Deals get done when I'm derisking events,
spk_0
when the buyer is comfortable and the seller
spk_0
has gotten renumerated.
spk_0
And I think it's also, we can't ignore the fact
spk_0
that the market is finally renumerating companies.
spk_0
So there are much more comfortable selling now
spk_0
that seems to be kind of our thinking here.
spk_0
Yeah, I agree with everything you said.
spk_0
I do, I do think there is some stochastic nature
spk_0
to deal flow and, you know, nobody really can time their release
spk_0
or their transaction to anything else.
spk_0
And they're saying, Sam, you're right.
spk_0
The macro has changed dramatically
spk_0
and with MFN and tariffs and some of the other issues
spk_0
behind it, we finally are coming out of a nuclear winter,
spk_0
not just for biotech stocks,
spk_0
but also for pharma transactions.
spk_0
So I would hope that we would see some more of these.
spk_0
Let's continue to move on to some of the clinical data sets
spk_0
from the week.
spk_0
And I guess the big disappointment this week
spk_0
was the Moon Lake, the Reputix News.
spk_0
Not sure if others cover this company.
spk_0
I don't, but we do pay some attention
spk_0
to the Hydrogen-Ida Supertiva space, the H.S. space,
spk_0
and Moon Lake and their drug were thought
spk_0
to have potentially a best-in-class opportunity here
spk_0
with an IL-17 alpha.
spk_0
Unfortunately, I said a local map,
spk_0
not just failed to differentiate itself
spk_0
versus the incumbent UCBs, Benzellx,
spk_0
but also failed to achieve statistical significance
spk_0
on one of two phase three studies.
spk_0
So that really puts the drugs approval in jeopardy
spk_0
in a way that I don't think anyone would have predicted.
spk_0
I think there were a lot of folks trying to game
spk_0
how differentiated a local map might have been
spk_0
versus Benzellx into this data set,
spk_0
but no one expected this disastrous result
spk_0
to stock it down over 85% this week.
spk_0
And I think looking forward, it's really unclear
spk_0
how this company gets out of,
spk_0
it gets moving forward.
spk_0
So this was a pretty major binary for the industry.
spk_0
I think a lot of us woke up on Monday morning,
spk_0
not sure how the XBI was gonna perform around it
spk_0
because there was so much cap and interest on this event.
spk_0
And yet we shrugged it off and moved on.
spk_0
And again, maybe saw a bigger picture
spk_0
that was more favorable in terms of other companies
spk_0
doing other things, evaluations that are reasonable.
spk_0
But Brian, why don't you introduce the LARAMR news?
spk_0
I know that was also an interesting situation.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah, another interesting situation
spk_0
regarded as negative on the day of,
spk_0
but has been climbing back pretty strong.
spk_0
So some management's been doing a good job
spk_0
with investors getting them over the line here.
spk_0
So the LARAMR's developing drug for freejacks ataxia.
spk_0
And their update was on their clinical study,
spk_0
which is potentially a study
spk_0
that is approval under subpart H.
spk_0
I think that's the thesis here.
spk_0
And this drug, it's a recombinant for taxon,
spk_0
which is the protein that's deficient in FI.
spk_0
So the endpoint of this study is actually
spk_0
for taxing levels and skin.
spk_0
And then they've already shown good levels
spk_0
in earlier data cuts.
spk_0
And this week they showed in 10 out of 10 patients
spk_0
with six months of for taxon treatment,
spk_0
more than 50% of normal for taxon levels in skin measurements.
spk_0
They also showed a median improvement from baseline
spk_0
in M-FARS of 2.25 points.
spk_0
And this is a primary clinical endpoint in FI studies,
spk_0
it was the basis of approval of biogen skycliarists
spk_0
following their randomized controlled study.
spk_0
But this is an open label study.
spk_0
So not in our CT, but showing similar effects
spk_0
to skycliarists from baseline.
spk_0
So this is all good, but they also announced
spk_0
that out of 39 patients toast in the study,
spk_0
seven of them are 18% experienced anaphylaxis.
spk_0
The stock closed on Friday at five in change
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and was in the low threes when it opened earlier this week.
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But as I said, management's been doing a good job
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getting investors comfortable.
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It's climbed backs in the mid-FI's or mid-FARS right now.
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I think the debate here is really is skin for taxon,
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a surrogate endpoint that's reasonably likely
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to provide a clinical benefit.
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And how much evidence is landmark generating
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to make that cause?
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So I think most people would agree that if you could get
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functional for taxon levels and the tissues of interest,
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this would be a no-brainer for subpartage approval.
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But skin for taxon rate is not a direct measurement
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of a tissue of interest.
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It's a surrogate tissue of a tissue of interest.
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And we don't have measurements of the tissues
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that would be ideally measured for this study.
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But it's a very good marker in terms of the amount
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that they're showing in skin.
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But the question becomes when you sort of introduce
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this very real risk now of anaphyl access,
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how confident can one be that the skin for taxon measurements
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and improvement in baseline, M-FARS scores
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in an open label study?
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Is that enough to kind of support the argument
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that this is reasonably likely to predict?
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So fully expect this is gonna be another big FDA
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approved ability debate as we get closer and closer
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to sort of their final cut of data
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and they're talking about submitting a BLA for subpartage
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in the second quarter of next year.
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So one to watch closely, it's another name
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that's sort of on the margins of will they,
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won't they FDA approval?
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The FAR association, the advocacy group here's very powerful.
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A lot of people think they had a very significant role
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in ensuring that the FDA approved SkyClearis itself,
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which was a subject of a lot of controversy
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on this creep back in the day before biogen bought it.
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So look forward to following that one over the next year
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or so with the FDA debate.
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Great recap, Brian.
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Did you or Sam want to cover an aunt as well?
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And there are a few.
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Sure, I'd love to cover an aunt.
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I've been following that one for a large part of my career
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since they were one of the main players
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in Hepat C.
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So they pressed release data from their
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respiratory sensual virus study in high risk patients
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on Monday.
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And this is an antiviral for our sphere.
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We've had a couple of recent vaccine approvals for our sphere,
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but this is for the treatment of our sphere.
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And pre-market, it was down, is it missed the primary endpoint,
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which was the reduction in lower respiratory tract symptoms?
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And generally, look at a phase two studies
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on when they missed primary endpoints,
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people kind of throw them out.
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And it certainly started to look that way
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as down 20% pre-market.
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And then it started rebounding
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and has been way up since about midday on Monday.
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And while we were kind of reviewing the data pre-market,
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I was telling my associates,
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I was like, oh, I kind of actually think this data
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is pretty good, am I crazy?
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And my associates were smarter than me.
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They were like, no, no, you're right.
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This is like pretty good data.
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And I think when you look at it,
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the question is like, what is an antiviral supposed to do
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for this disease?
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And it seems like it's doing all the things
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that you would want into antiviral.
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I mean, you've shown very, very clear reduction in viral load,
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good separation from placebo across the study.
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They're showing improvement in a number of metrics
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across the overall study beyond
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just sort of the four symptom lower respiratory tract symptoms.
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And most importantly, perhaps the pre-specified subgroup
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that we're looking at of more high-risk patients
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that are sort of elderly 75 plus patients
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or with comorbid COPD,
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they showed much more robust results.
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So I think RSV and look, I mean,
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an antiviral sort of had a tough run in that,
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I think they're really good at making drugs.
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They've just sort of gone after indications
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that have been really hard to define a true clinical benefit
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or remove the needle since their day is in hapsi.
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And I think respiratory viruses are all great.
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It's a hard indication to sort of chase
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because so many of these diseases resolve
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and most people so quickly, it's hard to even ever pick up
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a benefit unless you run in huge, huge studies.
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So here I think what there was successful is they found
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a high-risk population that you would truly be worried about
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with an infection, not statistically significant,
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but there was a pretty significant number of patients
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on control who wound up hospitalized
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for RSV versus on treatment.
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And that may just be random noise,
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but I think with all of the other data points,
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it's pretty supportive that they have a real antiviral here
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for this infection.
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So now the question is, is the data good enough
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to find a big former partner who'd be interested
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in developing this as sort of a product
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to put in the hospitals or older person homes
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to try to intervene in patients who are high risk
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that come down with an RSV infection?
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And I kind of think of us.
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Thanks Brian, awesome recap.
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It really wasn't that busy a week in terms of news flow.
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And I think we covered all the major data releases.
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That'll give us an opportunity to maybe do something
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we don't often get to do on biotech, which is look forward
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a little bit and see what's coming down the road
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later this month.
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We've of course got major medical conferences
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and kicking off for the fall.
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I know a bunch of us are gonna be going over to Berlin
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to see what's happening at ESMO.
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So we'll talk about that.
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And right around the corner for better for worse
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is earning season as well.
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So I thought maybe we could all chime in on what types
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of prints we're looking for and maybe who's most at risk
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for seeing performance around their Q3 earnings results.
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But let's start with the Q4 conference season.
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Sam, I know you're going to Berlin.
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Your owner, are you going as well?
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I'm not gonna miss going to Berlin.
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All right.
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Maybe we should do a version of biotech hang out
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from Berlin on the ground a few weeks.
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Just a three of us.
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Yeah, I love it.
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I love it.
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But what are you guys looking for?
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What are you most excited about seeing?
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You're on Goat.
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Well, for us, it's three things to boil it down to.
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And I think they're actually all laybreakers,
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interesting, they know.
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So Amjans going to have, remember,
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they bought a company called Five Prime
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to get your FGF R2 B antibody for gastric cancer
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based on that promising phase two.
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So we're going to see the first phase three.
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It's called the 42-101.
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It's the phase three results.
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These are patients that are overexpressing that five
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of a gen growth factor receptor in gastric
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or gastric suffigial.
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This is the combination.
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This is the doublet.
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And remember, Amjans said they hit the intramanelosis
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and survival.
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They continue to follow patients
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and he looks like the latest cut unsurvival
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doesn't look as good as the first cut.
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And then there is a second study which is the triplet.
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So it's a chemo, BIMA, with IO,
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face, both of them face,
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I'd probably be next to you.
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So that'd be the first one.
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This one, that's a progastory because it's the FGF R2.
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The next is the exal,
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so they did the phab, the cub was it.
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It's called Zen, Whitney,
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I'm succumbent with the Zen against the graphin in colon.
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Sir, this one is controversial and important
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because they did hit survival
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in all patients in refractory colon.
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So that's really good.
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But we don't know what drove the benefit
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whether across all patients.
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They also had a specific subsets of patients
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with liver mitts who don't do as well.
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And of course, the one thing to keep in mind is,
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and this is important for FDA these days,
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Moe, Janssen, the study,
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were enrolled outside the US.
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And it's also a question whether,
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okay, great, so you beat regoraphinib,
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which is, you know, no longer the standard of care.
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It was approved 12 years ago.
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It's sort of like the weakest kid in the block.
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But how do you do relative, you know,
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across studies to the standard of care,
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which is two other drugs that do a lot better?
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So that's going to be really important
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then to figure out with the new FDA,
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just having a survival benefit against an old standard
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is that even relevant when it's conducted XUS.
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And then finally, and Eric, this is your turf.
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We follow by antique, you obviously follow some it,
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but they have the data with Ivanesa map,
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that's their PD1, a Vegev by specific with chemo,
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head to head against Tevinbra,
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with B1, you know, Beijing plus chemo.
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So remember, this is Harmony 6,
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they beat it in China,
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this is squamous, non-self, small cell,
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they beat it on PFS, and now we'll see the data.
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And again, the question is, okay, great.
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So are you actually going to show survival benefit or not?
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But I'm not sure the data's mature enough
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and hopefully we'll be able to at least look at trends.
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So all three laybreakers are all important.
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Go ahead Sam, what do you,
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what do you put on your radar?
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Yes, so I'll pick up from where your own left,
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both of those two other studies are quite interesting for us too,
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but here on Harmony 6,
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I think what's going to be interesting is the comparator arm
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is of course the system is a map with,
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you know, you know, PactiTax or NAPA,
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so like I would plant it.
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There we have data in China,
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when you look at it comparative to the keynote 407 data
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that of course is Ketruda,
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it did look better there.
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So medium PFS seemed a little at the same follow up period,
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right, early seven and a half or so months.
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So the interesting thing would be how the control arm
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performs in this trial,
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one that we need to look at,
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which is that was the rationale 307 file,
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but and PFS as,
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as you're on rightly said is quite interesting.
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And this is remember this is where the cell cars in Oma,
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so a non-small cell cars,
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and this is a group of patients that normally would avoid
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a Vegeph inhibitor,
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and they know all the studies that we've seen in the subcuts
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from even the three S-Pyro, Pfizer drug,
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and the variety of other ones that I've tried to dig up,
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we don't see the usual problem of hemoptosis,
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which is bleeding in those patients,
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which would be the result of Vegeph.
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Remember that at the WCLC,
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the discussant of the harmony data said that all he sees here
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is Vegeph activity.
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So that kind of continues to argue against that comment,
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if you think back that this is just Vegeph,
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which of course I think most people thought that wasn't fair.
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So that's going to be interesting to look at, of course,
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OS as you're all said.
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The one other thing that we're looking at is this,
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there is a trial from Remgen,
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which is gastric cancer,
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I guess what the target is, PD1 Vegeph.
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It is an interesting combination,
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it's in gastric cancer,
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combination of their,
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so it's going to be,
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of course safety will be the biggest question here,
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clodinating point 2 ADC,
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plus the PD1 Vegeph,
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so RC148,
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and or a PD1 inhibitor,
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and this in this case is Jun-Shi's PD1,
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look, Torzi.
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So look, it's a trial that's not necessarily enormous,
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but we're very interested to see how this looks.
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What are the, is this another Vegeph that's going to show up?
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And no one really has talked about this particular one.
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So that's one we're looking at,
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just as something that is off the beaten track.
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And of course, you still have all the Astra,
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they're in presidential session one, symposium one,
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and they have the first two.
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So that's the two Destiny Breast,
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Destiny Breast 11,
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and 05 where we're looking for
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significant efficacy data from there,
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and I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very good
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in terms of the readout
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because they've already said that being statistically
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and clinically meaningful data sets.
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So we'll wait and see how this all pans out.
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So we could keep going on,
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but I think this enough for the conversation today.
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No, thanks.
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You guys covered the Summit Ivan Eskamaab,
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or actually the Kesso Ivan Eskamaab Harmony 6 trial.
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Well, I think it's going to probably be a little bit early
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to see overall survival,
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but like the two of you,
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I'm very keen to see what the hazard ratio is on PFS.
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We've got a couple of other Smithcat names
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that are going to be at the conference as well.
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Idea has a drug called Daropa Certitive,
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which is in Ocula Melanoma
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with a new adjuvant update of around nine years old patients.
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I think that's also an oral presentation.
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So I just highlight that is something that's continued
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to look very, very interesting in Ocula Melanoma,
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a tough tumor type with very few,
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very, very few alternative options.
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I just want to say that Eric,
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that was also on my list, but I thought I had enough.
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That's going to be a good product in my opinion.
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And then we're also looking at Verastem
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and the G12D space.
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Their partner and other Chinese player,
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Genfleet, will be presenting now a pretty good cohort
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of data in pancreatic cancer.
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This of course is looking to try and get a share of a market
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that's seemingly dominated by revolution medicines,
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but the efficacy data from there,
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G12D on off inhibitor has looked really good.
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They've had some tolerability considerations
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that they need to work around.
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And again, I just highlight that in pancreatic cancer
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and other tumor type that's in dire need
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of innovation is being quite interesting.
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We've just got a few minutes here.
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What's on your bingo cards for Q3 earnings?
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Any companies in particular that have a lot to gain
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or lose as we start to turn the clock forward?
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Your own, you cover a lot of the big guys.
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Well, so our genetics we think is probably going to be okay
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and in line after a huge Q2.
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So we think that should be okay.
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Legend, which is published a note today.
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So we're called, they're making core victim
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with Johnson and Johnson.
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It's a BCMH for my Loma, they're the market leader right now.
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And there have been capacity constraint
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and they've been growing capacity
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between their current sites in Jersey and in Belgium.
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And that's been taking probably a little bit slower
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than expected.
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Like I just kind of thank you for any of one of us
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does a renovation of an apartment or a house or whatever.
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How long that takes?
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Think about building complicated global plants.
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So they have been bringing more capacity,
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but it looks like there's going to be
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an incremental expansion in Q3.
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And because of it, it looks like they're probably
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going to be a smidge and light.
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Still growing mid teens quarter of a quarter,
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but not the 20% Wall Street was looking for.
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It looks like the new capacity is really going to be
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kind of late in Q4.
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So the 1.9 billion consensus,
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they can probably still hit that,
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but they might need to kind of do
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to round up the numbers to get to 1.9.
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Anyway, next year is hopefully when they're finally
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not going to be capacity constraint,
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but legend we've been feeling a ton of questions on.
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I said, this is looking good.
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And I don't know about the rest yet.
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What about biotic and modern, are there vaccines?
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Did you've been tracking them?
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Well, you go ahead because I know you're tracking them.
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They're looking down 50% right?
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They're not looking good at all.
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Go ahead.
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No, they're not looking great.
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I mean, it's hard to do the week on week comparisons
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because of the different starts,
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but if you put them on the same,
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I don't think it's a 50% but they look down.
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The difference, what I find interesting
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around, I don't know if you look that is that,
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modern doesn't seem to have done much with pricing,
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but based on our data points,
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Pfizer seems to have taken a price rise this year.
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So that might mitigate some of the pressure,
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but that's one I'm looking at,
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but then I don't cover as many stocks as you do so.
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Yeah, I mean, COVID vaccines are sort of a nice
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to have these days only for certain populations, you know?
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Brian, you get the last word on Q3 earnings.
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Yeah, I mean, I would just kind of know,
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you know, I think there's some interesting launches underway
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that people will be very focused on, you know,
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Gilead, obviously, this will be sort of the first real quarter
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of launch of the Lena Capa beer prep,
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which has been, you know, really the driving force
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behind the re-reading over the last year and a half
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for Vertax, we'll get another quarter of Journal of Axels
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with the pain drug that really launched at the very beginning
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of this year.
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Neurochrane obviously gets driven a lot
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by Ingrasmus Hales, but they have their own launch this year
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of Karnacity that started out at the beginning of the year.
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So, you know, I think a lot of us will be on that one.
spk_0
Terrific, guys.
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Thank you very much.
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We are out of time.
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So that brings to a close this episode of the Biotech Hangout.
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I hope that our listeners will join us next week
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for another hopefully very educational setting.
Topics Covered
Biotech Hangout
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Pfizer CEO Albert Burla
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most favored nation pricing
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