Technology
Episode 105 - The End
In the final episode of The Design Review, hosts Jonathan and Chris reflect on their journey, sharing key takeaways and insights from over a hundred episodes. They discuss the importance of asking �...
Episode 105 - The End
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
This week on the Design Review, after all these years, we bring the program to a close and talk about what we hope people will take away from the show.
Speaker B
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Design Review, also the last episode of the Design Review. My name is Jonathan and with me as always for years and years is Chris.
Speaker A
Hello. Yeah, this is it. And just so everyone knows, first of all, the show will remain exactly where it is. So if you are concerned about not being able to find the Design Review, we aren't going to delete anything, so you'll still be able to find us. Yeah, it's just, you know, we aren't gonna, we aren't making new episodes, but there's over a hundred episodes of history.
Speaker B
Quality content for you. And as always, you know, like, I mean, minus the first little chunk where we're trying to figure stuff out, they're all chock full of, you know, quality, very practical design advice, things you can apply at work next day, get hired, get promoted, etc, etc, become a better designer. So hope you have enjoyed this ride with us and that that is hopefully still going to be something that other people find and recommend to each other and continues to be valuable because that's the way we wrote it is. We wanted it to be very timeless in a sense.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
And I know, you know, like, you and I both talked about this, Jatah, like, as it's been going on, like it's been getting harder and harder to just come up with like new things to talk about because, you know, we've talked about so many different things so.
Speaker B
Much and we, and we really like did a good job with those. I really felt like we said everything we needed to say was, you know, a deep and also covered like all the different topics we found interesting, passionate about things that were going to be high impact. And then now we also start to reference all our episodes, all of the previous episodes. So we're like, okay, I think we've said the stuff that we wanted to say and it's out there and it's available as a resource. And that's our main concern with all this was like we wanted to be able to share that with all of you while also getting to chat with, with Chris or and whatnot. And that's, that's, that's been the journey and that's been the reward. It's been really great.
Speaker A
I mean, it's, it's like when you've covered so much stuff, it's like, it's really, really hard to think of something new to Talk about that is going to be just as engaging as all, like, these big topics and things that we've talked about from years and years ago, you know?
Speaker B
Yeah. So it's like episode 200. It would be like, this is how I hold my hand on my. On my mouse.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
And, you know, the best snacks.
Speaker B
The best snacks, midday snacks.
Speaker C
And.
Speaker A
Yeah. I don't know. We just started talking about.
Speaker B
We did do an ergonomic one, though.
Speaker A
We did. Yeah, we did. We didn't cover snacks, though. That's probably, like. That's probably the one that, you know, the audience is very frustrated that we.
Speaker B
Aren'T going to say they got away. But, yeah, you know, like, we said the things you want to say, and then also we want to practice what we preach. Like, one of the things we talked about is, like, learning when to say no and the fact that if you say yes to something, that means you need to say no to something else. So us being able to not do the podcast means we're able to do other things and we're going to be trying out different stuff so you might hear from us again in the future. But that's one of the other reasons. And we also thought we want to leave this on a great bookend the entire podcast here with some of our core lessons that have emerged through writing and recording deep thoughts about design, getting a job, all that stuff that we've worked on for so long and. And really boil them down to some big takeaways. And then we also wanted, if you're brand new and you happen to check out the podcast, give you a great. Some great starting places in our giant, giant library of episodes.
Speaker A
I mean, you should listen to every single episode, really, because that's how good it is.
Speaker B
Except for, like, the first five, I think. Yeah, you're good. Yeah, no, let's just start that. Let's start off with that. So if you're new to the podcast, I highly recommend actually starting with episode 16.
Speaker C
Yes.
Speaker B
One is this is when we kind of figured out what we wanted to do with the podcast. We initially did design reviews, which, if you're curious, go check those out too. But this is the first episode where we kicked off our Usability Heuristics series.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And we really go deep into Jacob Nielsen's usability heuristics and what they mean, how to apply them, and then from. You can just kind of go backwards from there. Also, another, like, pivotal episode for us was episode 23.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
This was about asking why.
Speaker C
And.
Speaker A
It actually comes off of this Book start with why. And it's a really one of the most fundamental questions you can ask as a designer, like why? Why are things the way that they are? So that you can start thinking about new and interesting ways to address maybe some of the same problems or some of the old problems that really, you know, have bad solutions or outdated solutions or solutions that just for whatever reason don't seem to work anymore. Asking why is really just an important thing. It's an important skill for you to nurture within your sort of design practice.
Speaker B
Yeah, easily our most referenced episode, self referenced episode because it's really how you get to all of these. We had a listener contact us for our last episode and really this actually is the core thing you can do to navigate all those things is just keep asking why? Because so often our brains want to skip that and go directly into some gut action or something which maybe leads to, you know, the wrong decision or ambiguity and all that. So there's so many reasons why. Like you'll grow from asking why, where you'll get unblocked, you'll find the right solution, you'll get to all these things we're trying to teach you just on your own. You don't even need us just by like taking the time to stop, ask why, and see where that takes you.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah, I mean, just dig a little more deeper deeply into, you know, the subject matter and, and try and understand the problem a little more than just whatever is on the surface. You know, there, there's often really interesting solutions, you know, if you can kind of put the effort in to dig a little deeper.
Speaker B
And the third One is episode 37, which is about landing your first design job. And we wanted to highlight this one because this is like one of our most popular episodes and we know a lot of you who are interested in, you know, soaking up everything you can about design or oftentimes trying also to get a job, whether it's your first or like one of your first jobs. And it's really, really difficult. So we've bled those, you know, we've been through that, we've been through those like big dark moments and finally come out of them and then quickly turned around and wrote those thoughts down. So go check that out. There's, there's, there's other episodes where we go into different like specifics. But that's a great, just kick start your, your process and will really help, you know, avoid a lot of those pitfalls before, you know, you potentially like ruin some of your situations or extend the time you're looking for a job, so definitely check it out.
Speaker A
I mean, this was one of the first episodes that we did on just career building and stuff, and it was so popular that we basically had to keep doing more. And we have done more.
Speaker C
We've done.
Speaker B
Yeah, we've done a ton. So if that's your. If that's the state you're in, like, you're in good hands. And check out that episode. And you can also browse through the rest of the library. And we have. We have others as well.
Speaker A
And. Yeah. And to be. To be clear, you know, the episode is about your first design job, but I think even if you're season. Yeah, it's a good.
Speaker B
It's a good episode design job. When I was, like, looking back through all this stuff because, like, there's so much time between when you have to interview and then, like, you get the job and then you just, like, lose all that knowledge. It just gets dumped out of your head again.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
Because you don't. You don't use it. You don't practice it every day, and you shouldn't practice it that often, really.
Speaker B
Yeah. Hopefully you're not an expert.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
So what are. We've also, like, maybe we can just finish talking about this. What are some of the things that people should know about our show? You know, if they're listening to this episode. Right. As the very first episode, what are some of the things that they should know about our content?
Speaker B
Oh, yeah. I've been really thinking about this since we made the decision to, like, to the pause. I mean, like, to stop the show. And we've been. We've covered so many topics, and I've learned so much from you and learned so much from, like, also having to force myself to teach something. You know, like, I think there. There's so much value in that. Like, I'm not, you know, an expert, but if I have to write something expertly and research it and put together notes for it, like, it forces me to grow and to learn. So, yeah, I put together, like, 10 things from our show, like, as a personal fan of our own show, slash, like, student of our show, that, like, have really meant a lot to me and have been just, like, I keep, like, trimming this down and trying to, like, really focus on, like, what are the most impactful things. So these are the 10. Number one is start with why. So again, you know, check out episode 23.
Speaker C
Yes.
Speaker B
Because again, that is the foundation of becoming a better designer. And. And this is probably true of any career or Anything and really grow. Anything you do is pausing, is taking that moment to pause and start to understand how things work and why they are, why they are the way they are. And. And then moving on from there, like, I'm not getting a job.
Speaker C
Why?
Speaker B
You know, a lot of times it's like, oh, because, you know, this, that, and the other. Okay, well, why, why, why? And keep asking until you have some actionable items that kind of clarify, like, oh, this. This could be it.
Speaker A
Let's.
Speaker B
Let's try that out.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And that's just done so much for me in my career, in my life. And.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And also, like, just knowing what to design. Like, you're looking at the design and you're looking at the prd, like, okay, well, why is that? Why should we have this page? Like, why do we need to do it this way?
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And a lot of times, that's what differentiates a junior designer with, like, a senior designer.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
I mean, there have been so many times throughout my career where, I mean, I can think back and, like, if I adjust, accepted, you know, what somebody was asking me to make.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
I'm sure it would have been okay. You know, like, it probably would have worked with, you know, with some. Some, you know, maybe difficulties or whatever, but. Because there are. There were points where I very distinctly remember asking why? And trying to uncover, like, why are we doing certain things and why are we not doing certain other things? That it really helped me find better solutions than what somebody was just asking me to create. And then it became a real interesting challenge of trying to, you know, talk about that with them. But that's part of being a designer, right? That's part of, you know, your growth as a designer and your growth in this career is like, coming up with these ideas by asking why? And then being able to communicate that and work with people to understand what it is that you're seeing that they're.
Speaker C
Not.
Speaker A
And being able to, like, move forward and build. Build something. Amazing.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Because of it.
Speaker B
The second one I have here is, like, when you're stuck, seek out ambiguity up the chain. Whenever. Whenever you're, like, really feeling lost in your design, like, what should I be doing? It's always because there's something in the. Earlier in the design process, the requirements that is unsolved. It's a great opportunity to improve the project and be a leader in the project. So don't struggle and waste four hours and all that and start to spiral. Just make sure it looks immediately turn around and say, okay, what is it about the requirements or about the framing of this problem that is ambiguous, that is not defined yet. And that's always been the problem. And I always wish I would think about this when that comes up, rather than struggling at the design for another two days and then like, oh, it's because we have no idea what our goal is.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
I mean, there's so many points, especially if you work in, you know, a bigger sort of organization.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
Bigger than, like a startup.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
Even startup sometimes. But so much of, like, so much of what happens when you get a project as a designer, so much of that is built off of, you know, this old game called Telephone, where, like, the original thing that somebody said, you know, is completely lost, sometimes gets interpreted.
Speaker B
And sent to somebody else, and then they interpret that. And there's always, like, mismatches of stuff. There's always a little bit of dropped data.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
And it goes hand in hand with, you know, asking why. It's like, well, if you get this request to do something, you start looking into this and thinking about, why is this coming to me and what is the thing that they're actually asking me to do? And you start to realize there's actually kind of holes in what they're requesting. And you start talking to people and you go, well, what about this is the problem and why is this really important to solve? And this and that. And then sometimes you find out, like, oh, it's just because some guy in a meeting said something weird and it just got sort of spun out of control because, you know, people are panicking, you know, it had nothing to do with anything, you know, and then you start to realize, hey, maybe this project, we don't even need to do it right now.
Speaker B
Oh, yeah.
Speaker A
But so much. It's like, if you don't do that work to kind of uncover what's going on, you know, and, like, try and chase things up the chain a little.
Speaker C
Bit.
Speaker A
You know, Sometimes you just end up, like, wasting a lot of time on things that you shouldn't be doing. And it can be hard to know, you know, sometimes, like, when to do that and when not to do that. But I think it's one of the things that separates sort of a beginning designer from someone that's more seasoned is. Is their willingness to kind of pursue things up the chain a little more, you know.
Speaker B
Yep, 100%. So, like, number three, it's, I guess, kind of related to that as well. But it's like, know your user.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
Even when job seeking. So, like, so often that it kind of related to that is like those people aren't necessarily thinking about the user. And that's really our job as designers, is to advocate for that. Everyone should be. But. But it's more our responsibility, if that makes sense.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
More than anybody. Because we're so close to it and we know we're always thinking about and trained to think about users behavior that you know, like, and we're, you know, helping conduct UXR or like really close to that as well. That like we need to advocate for that. So you know, if your design, if for your design to really work, you really need to know like what, who your user is, like what their jobs that they want from you to do what, what, you know, aspects of them are important, all of that and what their motivations are. And then when it comes to job seeking, all of that is still true.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
For some reason we throw that out. Throw that out. When we do job seeking, like we, we throw out everything we know about design and we just kind of like wade through it. Like for example, when you're designing your portfolio, why don't you follow the design process?
Speaker A
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B
Right. Like what? You need to follow the design process. You need to like define the problem. You need to define like your solution space. You need to give yourself some milestones. Like all the stuff you would do inside your company, you should be doing. That's why like building a portfolio is the most painful process in the world. It's because like we're like one of those like terrible clients or terrible bosses that like don't know what they want, have no like real like milestones set up or just kind of like, yeah, asap. And you know, we want to use like the flashiest technology and we want it to be like this website and that's, that's why it's miserable. So define those things. Do everything like you would usually do. And then also when you're job seeking, you know, know your user. Like what does a design manager think? What does a recruiter think? Like what are their challenges and problems and how can I fit and change my portfolio to better serve their needs. Oh man, there's so much to say there. I'm going to do another. But we already have, so there's many episodes. That's actually a pretty recent one.
Speaker A
Yeah, I mean, you know, Starting from episode 37, landing your first design job is where we talk about all this stuff.
Speaker B
Yeah. The next one is like leading without permission.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
That's when I wish I would have like really known a deeper level when I first Started out.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker B
But it's like, don't wait for somebody to say, like, it's your responsibility. Or like, hey, you know, can you redefine our design process? Or like, hey, can you just. If you see a problem that you want to fix, just start fixing it. Start messaging people, tell them what to do. Like, you don't need to have a title. You don't need to have anyone tell you that it's okay. Just do it.
Speaker C
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
I mean, you mentioned, you know, the fan mail episode that we. We did recently. Like, it's the same thing, right? Like, they didn't want to do testing because they felt like they weren't going to be able to get it done, you know, and it's like, you should just do it because it's the right thing to do, you know, and don't wait for, you know, somebody to tell you whether it's okay. You know, just do it. And then if it's the wrong thing, you'll find out.
Speaker C
But.
Speaker A
You know, more. More than likely it'll be the right thing. And then it's just a matter of, like, doing it at an appropriate time, but.
Speaker B
Exactly. And that brings me to, like, another one just like, don't be afraid to say no.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
Don't be afraid of. Of receiving a no.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And I.
Speaker A
Giving and receiving.
Speaker B
Yeah, giving and receiving the word no. Some people are so afraid of the word no. And it. And it's one of the most powerful growth opportunities for you because on one side, not being afraid of somebody else telling you no is really important because you need to be able to just pitch things and be okay with that rejection. For my book, John Mita, I just messaged him out of the blue. And I messaged a few other people, too, and they never got back to me, but he did. And, like, that. That's. That's great. Like, then, boom. That was. That was a big help to the book. But, you know, like, there's so many opportunities like that out there that you'll just, like, leave on the table just because you don't want to hear a no. Like, hey, I have an idea for something for our product that I think we should do. Here's what it is. Here's why I think it, you know, would work. No. All right. You know, like, what did that cost you? Like, yeah, always. Yeah, just put yourself out there. And then on the other hand. On the other hand, like, and this was honestly the hardest one for me is not being afraid to tell other people no. Like, I Want to be a team player. I want people to like me too much, a lot more than I should. And. And so they say, hey, can you do this? Or, like, hey, we have this. This need. Or, like, hey, can you create this asset? I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then, you know, it bogs me down. I'm able to do some of the other stuff I need to do, or, like, I'm not able to prioritize my own work that I. That I want to, like, lead and put out there. So sometimes you need to say no. You need to kind of set up some boundaries that you're like, hey, I can't do this, but I can point you to where, you know, where you can find information or when I can do this. And, like, there's different levels of now, but get good at. Get good at saying no. And one of the best ways to do that is, like, blocking off your calendar. It's like another way of saying no. But it's saying, like, this time is for me to work, and I'm not going to accept any meetings during that time.
Speaker C
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
It's so true. Because I remember, you know, early on in my career, it's like, yeah, you don't want to seem like you're difficult to work with or, you know, that you're not working, you're not willing to work with people, and so you just start accepting every request. And, you know, you sort of don't. You try not to say things that, you know, seem controversial or whatever, but sometimes you just have to say no to stuff because it's, you know, it's your time. And, you know, the success of these projects, you know, sort of rides on whether or not you can get the work done. And if you're not saying no to some stuff, it's like, well, you're just not going to have time to do everything to the. To the level that it probably should be done, you know? Yeah, it's part of that leading without permission thing, you know, And a lot.
Speaker B
Of times, like, you feel like, oh, like, okay, I've given myself this much time for the design, and I have time to help them with this. And as soon as you. As soon as you're like, like, come to, like, it's the end of the day and a whole nother day has passed.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And you've just taken care of a bunch of other people's questions and things and, you know, chats and pings, and you haven't done any. You haven't made progress on your project. And like, that. That could be a big deal. So learn to say no and learn to. And not to be afraid of other people telling you no.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
The next one here is you are the expert. So you are the person that got hired to be a designer. A lot of times what we hear from designers who just started out is, you know, like, oh, like, I'm trying to get my team to do user research or how do I convince my team of this, that and the other thing? And I. We just really want to, like, instill it in you that you are the expert. And they, They're a lot of times giving you just feedback or like, they're just sort of like, talking. You know, they're. They're. The better way to think about it is they're putting data out there and they're not expecting you to take it at full value and just like, say yes or like to immediately agree with everything. Like, they're trusting you to be an expert and push back and say no, wink, wink, when it's incorrect. So you need to say, like, no. For the project to succeed from UX perspective, we need to do X, Y and Z and et cetera. Like, there's times you're going to need to, like, correct your team because you are the design expert and that's what they're relying on you to do. Like, you know, God forbid my team would rely on me to know how to do all the data analytics. Like, I wouldn't know how to do that.
Speaker C
Right, yeah.
Speaker B
So, yeah.
Speaker A
Your next one is one we talk about all the time.
Speaker B
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker A
Ethics.
Speaker B
Ethics. Responsibility. Oh, my gosh. Yes.
Speaker A
Ethics is so important because as you, if you've listened to the cognitive psychology series, we did so much of design impacts or influences people's psychology.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
And it's really important to have ethical standards when it comes to design so that you're not sort of misrepresenting things or, you know, creating like, potentially dangerous situations. Right. I mean, you wrote a whole book about this, actually, John.
Speaker B
Yeah, I mean, the book is all about, like, in design and just generally in technology. Like, technology has this big, outsized impact, and that's really what the fun of, of the work is. Right. It's like you get to work on something that has a big impact. Whether it's like, you know, in somebody's life in a big way or in many, many people's life in a small or medium way. You have this outsized impact because of the technology. And so we really, really need to pay deep attention to Those things.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And one of the things I wrote here is like, ethical design is effective design and unethical design is just bad design with bad analytics.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
Like, to summarize all of that, it's really interesting how we've kind of unraveled that over the years. But yeah, like, ethical design is actually when you, when you dig down deep, it's just serving your users better understand and putting them first. And unethical design is really just delayed understanding of a bad design.
Speaker A
Well, and I would also say like, ethical design is the most simple way to do design.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
It gets complicated because people want to do unethical things and then you start having to like, negotiate all these like, unethical things. You know, if you listen to the, the Cognitive Psychology series, like you'll, we talked about this where just using, like starting to use one dark pattern creates an entire spiral of like continually using dark patterns.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
Because.
Speaker B
Explain or cover yourself legally.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
And like the first time you use one, you know, it looks good, but then you know the results ultimately won't produce. It won't produce the results that you want. So then you have end up having to use more and more and more to cover for the fact that you were doing all these unethical things previously. And it would have been so much simpler and so much more effective if you were just ethical from the beginning.
Speaker B
Yeah. If you want to know more about that, you can we have a few episodes on this and then you can also check out tragicdesign.com yes. Next one is design is hard. Give yourself the space to rodeo the problem. So, you know, we have a really difficult job as designers for taking like these very ambiguous, like, oh, we want to do this two. This is exactly the pages, what they'll look like, where they'll go next. We bring it down to like full realistic detail. And it's really hard to go from that really ambiguous place to something so concrete. And so we often feel very sheepish about giving two week estimates for these two screens or something. But you know, just remember like the, how hard design is and there's a lot of unseen work and, and there's going to be times where you're going to need to kind of like, I love the, the, the visualization of like the rodeo and like there's something trying to buck you off.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And oftentimes that's what it feels like. This problem just keeps trying to buck you off and you need to hold on and you need to like, find ways to return to the problem, you know, Seeking ambiguity up the chain if you need to. But, yeah, be kind to yourself. Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker A
People sometimes refer to this as wrangling cats, but, yes, the rodeo is nicer.
Speaker B
The next One is that 90% of design happens outside of the design tool.
Speaker C
Yes.
Speaker B
So make sure you focus, give enough attention to your growth and. And your job of those things. So we're talking about, you know, presenting, communication, you know, getting good at, like, creating brilliant slides, things like that. That's. That's 90% of what's going to happen in your design career. So make sure you get good at those things, like planning so many things.
Speaker A
I mean, so much of your effectiveness as a designer has nothing to do with the hex colors, you know, that you're selecting. You know, it's like all those great.
Speaker B
To know about the components and stuff, but that's not, probably not what you're going to be graded on.
Speaker A
You know, like, you have to have the ability to, like, talk to people effectively, you know, and just negotiating the requirements, you know, it's like that one thing is like, already. It's like a very complex thing to do, and it's a very difficult skill to master. But it's one of those things that is so important and so critical for you as a designer. To be effective is to be able to do that. And it has nothing to do with sketch, Figma, Photoshop, none of that, just you talking to somebody.
Speaker B
All my talking is so much of the job. So it doesn't matter if you like it or if you're good at it, just get good at it.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
Because, yeah, it's so important. And last, but certainly not least is you don't need to have all the answers. Yeah, we need to kill this design genius. Yeah, thought that we all have. As designers, it's not your job to just, like, come up with brilliant designs and blow the team away. It's just your job to facilitate the answers being found. So don't try to do everything on your own. Use your team. Ask your team, hey, like, I don't understand this or I don't. I forgot what the requirement was. Or, you know, whatever it is, just like, be open with them, use your team and let them help you. Like, that's. That's what a good team player is like. That's what creates better designs. And so it's going to help you grow as a designer. So stop trying to be a design hero.
Speaker A
Yeah, I also put a couple. We'll just mention them quickly since we've already sort of Covered these. But the first one is research, I think research, you know, something that I know I've talked about quite a lot on this program is about just around research and how to do research and when to do research. Research is part of ethics, you know, because you. You aren't the. You aren't the person that's using the software at the end of the day.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
And it is your job to know who they are so you can, you know, design the things that they need. And the only way to do this.
Speaker B
It'S like getting a gift from somebody who, like, doesn't know you at all.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And they get you just this really expensive item, but it's actually just like, you're just like, oh, man, like, what am I gonna do with this? Like.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
Or you already have one or whatever.
Speaker B
Yeah. You know, like, if you don't know somebody, how can you create something for them?
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
So, yeah, I mean, research is such, like, you know, there's a lot, like, there's a lot that I've talked about on the program just around, you know, research. And why do you need to do research? Just, you know, definitely go. Go listen to some of those. Those things. The other thing that I think is really important for designers to understand is just all the stuff that we've talked about already, just the responsibility you have as a designer to make good choices, be. Be ethical. And, you know, I mean, we actually have an episode on this, on the responsibility of a designer. But it's such an important thing for.
Speaker B
Everything that comes by your desk.
Speaker C
Like, yeah.
Speaker B
If you have the influence to speak up or if you have the influence to. To decide how that's going to be, like, then you have the. You're responsible for the effects as well.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
You know, just because, you know, the. The idea for something came from somebody else, you know, it doesn't mean that you're absolved from responsibility. You know, if anything, you know, it's your responsibility to make something ethical.
Speaker C
Right.
Speaker A
If somebody's asking you to do something that's maybe unethical, it's your responsibility now to, like, turn it into something that's ethical. It's hard, but, you know, that's your. That's the job of a designer.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
And it oftentimes ends up being the most effective anyway.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker B
Because it pushes you to innovate.
Speaker A
Well.
Speaker B
All right.
Speaker A
So that's it.
Speaker B
That's it. Yeah.
Speaker A
I mean, I. I just want to close out by saying, thank you, John, for the many years of doing this with me.
Speaker B
Oh, man.
Speaker A
I You know, honestly, I didn't think I would have done a podcast. It was never something I aspired to do as a. Just a person.
Speaker B
And for so long, like, I think everybody kind of like, wants to do. Do a podcast and like, you know, five, 10 episodes, like, it fizzles out or something. But, like, I really think, like, there isn't for me, like, I have done it for so long. Like, well, first of all, we. We started by our, like, like, friendship because, like, you know, we were. I was interested in, like, I think, like, designing for cars or something like that.
Speaker A
So, like, I.
Speaker B
We grabbed some coffee, but, like, we enjoyed chatting so much. Know me ended up, like, doing a podcast because, like, why not? And I feel like that these conversations have just been, like, so much fun and I've learned so much from you.
Speaker A
Yeah, likewise. I mean, I really did not. It was not something that was on my radar at all. Was like, I never thought, like, oh, yeah, let's do a design podcast. No, it was not. And there was never anything in there. And it was just like, pretty much just, you know, random chance that, like, when we met up and started talking about it and it was like, yeah, we should do a podcast. And then, yeah. To have done it for. For this many years and just. Just talked about so many different things and. Yeah, like, you know, I. I have been around, you know, for your kids. Yeah, we started before you had kids. We had zero kids.
Speaker B
Now I have two. At this rate, I'll have, like, you know, 3,000.
Speaker A
So, yeah, it's like, it's just. I don't know, it's just pretty. Pretty amazing that I don't know. And I'm just very grateful that, you know, you wanted to grab coffee.
Speaker B
Thanks. Thanks so much for. For always. I mean, even now you have office hours, project.com, and you're quote, unquote, like, virtually grabbing coffee with. With other people too. Yeah, it's just like that. That kind heart and that depth that you always bring to any topic that has been making the podcast with you such, such a joy over the past few years. So thanks so much for doing that. I mean, I don't know why we're talking like this. Like, we're going to chat every week anyway.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker A
But I mean, this is like our.
Speaker B
It just won't be recorded. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah, this is our official. This is our official final show, and I just wanted to put it out there. Thank you, John, for. For doing this with me, because it's. It's Chris. It's meant a lot and It's. I think there's a really good legacy of stuff here that, you know, for all you listening out there, by all means, go back, listen to old shows. I listen to old shows, so.
Speaker B
Me too.
Speaker C
Yeah. So, yeah.
Speaker B
And I also want to just put it out there that Chris has edited a vast majority of the podcasts and then also I've been the cause of the vast majority of the issues, so it definitely pulled most of the weight here. I really appreciate the work you put into it.
Speaker A
You know, audio quality is important and I just, I wanted to make sure our podcast sounded good and I'm glad that, you know, we got things working by the end of the podcast.
Speaker B
We'Ll actually, we'll see. But yeah, all right, so, you know, again, we'll have that. We'll keep the podcasts up. We'll also have like the, the website designreviewpodcast.com you can find us any of those places, you know, Apple podcasts, wherever you can still leave your review.
Speaker C
Yep.
Speaker B
We still going to check on those every once in a while and read those. So that'd be really, really great. And yeah, you can find us on Twitter. Our podcasts handle is Dr. Underscore podcast. I'm Design Uxui and I am Machine Human.
Speaker A
If you still want mentoring, it's still going to be there. So just go to office hoursproject.com find somebody to talk to about your burning, burning design or career questions or whatever and there will for sure be someone there. Glad to take your questions. And of course, lastly, just want to thank everyone out there who's listening, you know, for listening over all these years, you know, we wouldn't have kept doing it, I think, if, if people just weren't interested, you know. You know. Really?
Speaker B
Yeah, like hearing getting those DMS and those emails, LinkedIn messages, like they've all just. And even the, the reviews, like each and every one of those has been such like an infusion of like, yes, like this is like helping people and, and, and it's all for, for something good. So thank you so much for, for all of those wonderful messages and even, even your, your one digit contribution to the play count is also something that's really like been motivating and awesome and just knowing that, you know, about 4,000 people almost every single episode have found this useful. So like that blows my mind. Yeah, we're so excited to, to have you guys and yeah, thanks so much.
Speaker C
Thank you.
Speaker A
All right, final farewell.
Speaker B
Bye everybody.
Speaker A
Bye. Please enjoy the rest of the show.
Speaker B
Bye.
Speaker C
Take care. Bye.
Speaker B
Adios jodafes.
Speaker A
Joy Keen.
Speaker B
You're probably late for your class.
Speaker C
Yeah, I am. All right.
Speaker B
Bye, guys.
Speaker C
Bye, Sa.
Topics Covered
Design Review podcast
design advice
career building for designers
usability heuristics
asking why in design
landing your first design job
timeless design principles
design topics
design resources
practical design tips
design podcast episodes
growth as a designer
design process
ambiguity in design
design communication