Education
Ep 277: Memorize the Facts - It Makes All the Difference
In this episode, Pam and Kim explore the nuances of memorization in math education, emphasizing the importance of understanding relationships between mathematical facts rather than rote memorization. ...
Ep 277: Memorize the Facts - It Makes All the Difference
Education •
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Interactive Transcript
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Hey listeners, before we get into this episode, we have some fantastic news.
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You know my K-12 developing mathematical reasoning avoiding the trap of algorithms book came
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out earlier this year, super excited, it hit top new release and best seller, ow!
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Well I'm even more excited to announce that the grade ban companion books are about to
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be here.
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The K-2 companion book developing mathematical reasoning, daily strategies, tools and activities
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to teach the big ideas in K-2, say that five times fast, is coming out soon.
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And we are having a large webinar on October 8th at 7pm Central, 8pm Eastern 5pm Pacific,
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you!
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And you are all invited to celebrate with us, especially K-2 teachers and coaches and math
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leaders.
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Pam is going to share tons, helpful things to teach K-2 math that is more figure outable.
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Yep, I'm going live on October 8th to show you how you can get the most out of teaching
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our youngest students to math in all the best ways.
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You're going to want to join us to register, go to mathisfigureoutable.com slash DMRK2
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webinar.
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We'll see you there.
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That's mathisfigureoutable.com slash DMRK2 webinar.
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Now on to the episode.
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Hey fellow mathers, welcome to the podcast where math is figure outable.
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I'm Pam, a former miniker turned math.
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And I'm Kim, a re-signer who now knows how to share her thinking with others.
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At mathisfigureoutable, we are on a mission to improve math teaching.
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Because we know that algorithms are super cool human achievements, but y'all they're terrible
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teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures actually traps students into using
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less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop ahead.
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Take a breath that time.
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I couldn't do it without.
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Sorry.
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In this podcast, we help you teach mapping, building relationships with your students and
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grappling with mathematical relationships.
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We invite you to join us to make math more figure outable.
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And that also means I need to work out more or something.
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That's a sign.
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It's a sign.
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I got to get more air.
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Hey, Kim, I'm going to tell you today we need to do a shout out.
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So, I had a meeting the other day.
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So I meet with schools and districts.
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We work with schools and districts and we work with our learning suite.
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And it's amazing what we can do.
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Y'all, if you're a school of district leader, you should get with us.
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Because we love working with schools and districts.
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And I was on a meeting the other day with Noreen.
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And I am going to shout out Noreen and Kathy.
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Y'all are amazing.
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And we are so looking forward to we're going to start our work with them in days.
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And just thrilled to be working with them.
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So, school district and you guys are amazing.
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Woo!
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All right.
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Super fun.
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Second thing we're going to do today is I want to say a story, Kim.
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So I think I mentioned this to the other day.
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I was on a plane, which I do often.
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And you know, I don't anymore.
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I don't talk as much on planes.
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I don't know if it was co-bedded or if I just wanted to.
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Which is funny because every time you go on a trip, you come back and you're like,
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hey, just talking to this person.
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I'm like, I don't talk to anybody.
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It's not quiet times.
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Well, I don't usually.
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I don't know.
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I don't so much anymore.
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Okay.
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I did.
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I had a very delightful conversation with a businessman.
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Okay.
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He was a sales guy and we actually talked about some business stuff and it was interesting.
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You know, because I met this for God was a small business.
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And I'm a math teacher.
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I don't do business.
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So, you know, I'm trying to figure out how to do that.
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And anyway, it was super interesting.
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He asked me what I do.
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And I kind of gave him a little, you know, the spiel I usually give people.
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And he told me it was terrible.
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I need to come up with a better elevator pitch.
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That was good.
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I mean, he liked our mission.
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He just said my elevator pitch was bad.
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It was just good.
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It was good input.
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You know, I'll take his input.
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But one of the things that he said was he heard me, you know, talk a little bit about
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how we're shifting the way we teach math and why and how the way mathy people think is
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not, not memorizing, mimicking algorithms.
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And he said, let me tell you.
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Let me tell you.
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The most important thing that was true for me as a student was that my teachers had
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me memorize multiplication tables.
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And I was like, I was kind of curious for him to say that.
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I was like, well, that's kind of against everything I believe.
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I didn't say that.
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I just tried to get under what he's saying.
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And he goes, yeah, they gave us this table, this chart.
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And he kind of, you know, was moving his hands.
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And he's like, there was, you know, all those, all those facts in there.
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And he's like, it was so important for me to memorize those.
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And I said, I'm kind of curious what you mean by that.
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Say, say more about memorize.
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Yeah.
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And he dove into, he said, it was, you know, the relationships between that I could realize
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how this one was related to that one.
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And these were connected to those.
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And it was all this interrelated consistent system that all was meaningful.
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And it had, and I thought, and I said, so like, when you memorize, when you say memorize,
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and you looked at, say, this one right here, and it was like, it was like, I don't,
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pick one six times nine or something.
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I'm like, does that, you were like six times nine grows on the vine.
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And so it's, I don't have a run for this score.
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So it's 54, like, whatever, I don't know.
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Is that how you memorize it?
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And he looked at me like, no, idiot.
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I mean, he was polite.
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Yeah.
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And it was like, no.
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And I was like, so when you say memorize, and then again, he launched off into this.
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Yeah, because you need to know how it's connected to like 10 times six and how,
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I could think about eight sixes, it's like double four sixes and it's one more six.
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Kim, everything he said was about how the facts were related to each other and the connections
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between them.
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Yeah.
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But he thought that he gained all that because his teacher forced him to quote, unquote,
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memorize the table that somehow, as a student,
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when he was given that table of facts, it was enough for him to make those connections
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and relationships and build on them and travel the mental path of figuring them
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and connecting them between each other.
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That's what he meant when he said, so important that my teacher made me memorize the facts.
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He didn't mean wrote memorize at all.
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Yeah.
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You know what?
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I wonder if, I wonder if that's what he thinks quote memorizing is.
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I wonder if like his teacher put the table in front of him and he was like, oh, there's
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these puzzle things and like, look at it and mess with it and they just left alone with
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it and he looked for things and maybe that's what he calls memorizing, but doesn't even
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realize that that's not what other people necessarily do.
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Or her.
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Or like naming numbers over and over again.
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Interesting.
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And maybe skip counting to fill in the table.
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So in other words, many students could hear the teacher say, here is this table, you need
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to know this.
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And students could do what he did.
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I think that's what my son did.
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Students could do what I did.
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Well, I didn't see.
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I was never given the table.
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I was given flashcards and so for me, it was just repeated exposure, wrote memorizing.
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Yeah.
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I did have some ramy things for a few of them that I couldn't remember, couldn't just
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remember to get the ones I didn't, but I think there are many teachers and students out
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there that say, you should know this.
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Okay, let's see.
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I see these, I see the relationships of skip counting.
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Consider teachers that if you've got kids who have built some additive reasoning and they're
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looking for patterns in the table, that might be the only pattern they see is the skip
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count.
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So then they say to themselves, okay, I guess if I'm going to know this, I'm going to
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ask, quote, unquote, whatever no means.
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I guess I'll skip count to recreate it.
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Right.
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And then they grow up and they become a teacher and say, tell their kids, you need to know
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this.
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All right, everybody, recreate this every time you need a multiplication fact, recreate
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the table by skip counting and we're sort of keeping kids in that additive reasoning.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So it's interesting.
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It's fascinating to me.
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The words no and memorize and how we connect it with facts and words matter.
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In fact, Kim, I was just on a call this morning with Sam, oh, golly, I think her last name
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is Parks.
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She's from Number Club and one of the things that she and I were talking about is the more
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that she writes, we're going to talk more about Number Club in the future, but the more
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that she writes about Number Club, how she's becoming, maybe not becoming, she's aware
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words that we say words that mean different things to different people and how she's
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being very careful to define her terms.
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And I think she's about to write a blog on the word play.
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And Kim, I would love to hear you.
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Okay, on another episode, maybe we can talk more about like when we say play with mathematics,
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I am 100% sure that what you mean by play with mathematics is 100% different than what
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I meant when I was a student in math by playing with mathematics.
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I would have had not even a vision of what it not even close to what you would mean.
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Anyway, so words matter.
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And I'm just going to suggest today that memorize, like what do we mean when we say that?
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And then specifically with facts, memorize does it mean to know?
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Oh, Kim, the other day, in one of the things that we're writing, I can't even tell you
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which one it is.
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One of the things we're writing, an editor popped back and said, I said something about
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own the facts.
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And the editor came back with, why don't you just say know the facts?
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Well, Kim, like to do those two words mean different things to you?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Say more.
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Like, what, absolutely, can you put some words to help me?
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I can know the answers.
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Yeah, I can know the answers to individual problems, but not own them in such a way that
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I can relate them to something else.
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I can't, I can't make connections.
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I can know individual facts.
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But when you own something, it's like you have, I don't even have the words, you have
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facility over it, you have relationships, other things, you like know it deeply in such
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a way that you can in and out, uncompress the word, and flexibly do things with it.
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So you might have a fact at your fingertips, but you can uncompress it and have lots
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of relationships of connections and deeper, yeah, all of those, all those words.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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So if we were to say that we want kids to know their facts and more, what's one way
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that that could look?
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No, there was something else I wanted to do before I went here.
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One of the things that he said on the plane was something about napkin math.
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And I feel like, I feel like Kim, I mentioned that to you and you actually say something about
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napkin math.
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So we were talking and you said that this man often did napkin math.
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And I think we were talking about what does napkin math mean to you, to me.
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And you said, I feel like it doesn't mean that people just grab something and like write
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an algorithm on it, that there's some like playfulness to it.
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And I said something like, well, even if they are writing algorithms, which I suspect maybe
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they're not, but even if they are, it's probably that at least they have a desire to mess.
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So like in that moment, they're like, oh, I thought of something.
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I'm going to sidestep.
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I'm going to do some things, which means they probably think that it's within their capacity,
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that they have access to whatever it is that they want to stop the conversation.
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They want to sketch something out because it's burning in them that they want to handle it.
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And they can handle it and handling it then gives them some information they can move forward with.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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And I wonder how many people out there are doing, quote unquote, napkin math that think a
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lot just a trick I taught myself because I can't really, you know, whatever, when in reality,
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they're using relationships and connections nicely.
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I also wonder how many people think, well, yeah, that's like, you know, they're school math
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and then there's napkin math.
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And I'm like, ah, why can't we teach all that, like that's real?
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It's not that's, let's teach that.
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Well, and I wonder how many people are at dinner or in a meeting or in a whatever and somebody
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raises something and they don't engage.
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Like every single notebook I ever have in every conversation has got something sketched
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down on it.
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But I wonder how many people go, oh, you just said numbers to me and they don't like, they
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just deflect their boy, they, you know, they believe where they believe they're like,
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oh, that's what you got.
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Okay, I have no idea how or how that's related.
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But I'm just going to believe and you could be a magnitude off right?
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You know, an extra zero in there.
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Yeah, that was me.
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That was me early on.
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Absolutely.
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So Kim, how could we help kids gain what this delightful gentleman on the plane gained?
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Yeah, how can we do that?
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Well, one way we can do that is problem string.
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So I'm going to run you through just a quick problem string that can help students not
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only gain the facts, but gain the kind of relationships that this gentleman was talking
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about and even more.
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All right.
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So we're just going to run with, what if I were to say, hey, Kim, let's picture a bag
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of oranges and that bag of oranges has eight oranges in it.
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I've just drawn a ratio table one bag to eight oranges.
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How many oranges would be in two bags?
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16.
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And I'm going to just do some scaling arrows, just like double the number of bags, double
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the number of oranges, how about the number of oranges in four bags?
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32.
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Now, at this point, I might pause a little bit, ask kids how they're thinking about doubling
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16.
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Just to get that out, because kids might not know double 16.
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If we're working on learning the facts, they might not know double 16.
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So we might just do that off to the side a little bit.
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How about eight bags?
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64.
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That one I'm not going to spend time on.
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How about 10 bags?
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This might sound familiar with the problem string we did last week.
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These are good relationships.
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Yeah, 10 bags.
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80.
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80.
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And then I might talk about how they got 10 bags, eight in the two.
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They might know the times 10.
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For sure, I'm going to notice the times 10.
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Because if kids are learning their facts, they might not know the times 10.
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So once we add the eight in the two bags and get 80 oranges, then I'm going to be like,
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hey, check it out.
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If from one to 10, that's times 10.
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Look at that eight times 10.
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That's 80.
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It happened again.
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And I'm going to say it happened again, because I'm going to point that out every time,
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every time a times 10 happens, I'm going to point out, look at that.
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It did it again.
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Eight times 10 is like eight tens.
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It's like eight in the 10 slot.
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Zero ones left over.
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I'm going to just notice that times 10 thing.
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You're like, okay, so I just want to point out so far in this string.
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We got kids thinking about eights.
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Two of them, four of them, eight of them, ten of them, thinking and reasoning.
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They're using relationships.
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Pam, Pam, you want kids to do that every time?
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I'd rather have kids just know.
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I don't want them to necessarily do it every time.
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But I want them to be able to, if they don't remember, I want them to have these relationships
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that they don't remember.
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Eight times eight.
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They could double, double, double to get there.
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But notice I'm building a lot of other things.
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They're doubling.
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Got the times 10 pattern happening.
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Then I'm going to ask them nine.
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These numbers are in order on purpose.
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I want them to be able to use what they have up there to get nine.
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Kim, what's one way they could use what's already up there to get nine?
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They can start with 10 packs as 80 and then subtract a pack.
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And so 80 is 78.
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That's 72.
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Cool.
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I could have also added the eight in the one.
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I'm probably shareable for those.
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Then I'll say, how about five packs?
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That's on purpose.
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That's on purpose.
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Thank you.
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That's on purpose to come after the 10.
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I'm definitely going to have kids have four packs in one pack and that's okay.
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But I'm going to want to encourage them to think about half of the 10.
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If you don't have to know your five, if you know your 10s, double or divide the 10 packs
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to five packs, divide the 80 packs.
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I just said packs.
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Bags and oranges divide the 80 oranges in half to get 40 oranges.
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Cool.
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So far, we've just in a very quick kind of way.
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Gotten kids to think about two times eight, four times eight, eight times eight, ten
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times eight, nine times eight, five times eight.
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We don't have them all yet.
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Let's go seven times eight.
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Now here I could have gone six.
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Today, I'm going to choose to do seven for reasons.
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Is there anything up there that could help you?
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Yeah.
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We just did five.
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So we could do five bags and two bags.
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We have the five in the two and 40 and 16 oranges.
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Bam, that's not too bad.
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That's 56.
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Okay.
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Cool.
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I might point out to kids.
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Hey, do a lot of you know five times eight.
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If you didn't, you could cut it in half.
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Bam, you know two times eight.
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Just look how easy it is to add 40 and 16.
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Sweet.
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There's 56.
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Travel that path often.
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But here's where it gets fun.
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We don't just want to build.
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We want to build the single digit facts, but not just the single digit facts.
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Now I might say, yum.
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I like oranges.
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How about 70 bags of oranges?
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How many oranges are in 70 bags?
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It's 560.
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And you did that how?
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Seven skill up times 10 and 56 times 10.
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Nice.
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Then I might say, all right, we got 70 bags.
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That's a lot of oranges.
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How about 75 bags of oranges?
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I wonder if there's anything up there that can help you.
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I don't know, maybe not.
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Go ahead.
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The 70 bags and the five bags we already found make 560 and 40.
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So 600 oranges.
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That's even a nice addition.
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Wasn't too shabby.
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Hey, let's go really like oranges.
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Let's go for 100 bags of oranges.
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800 oranges.
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800 lots of oranges.
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Bam.
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That's too many oranges, Kim.
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Silly, just 97 bags.
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97 bags.
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OK.
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Well, I want to remove three bags of oranges.
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And I don't see that you have three bags on there.
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Root.
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I know.
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But I know that we have one bag and two bag there, so I can add those.
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OK.
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Or I can think about what's right in the middle of two bags
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and four bags.
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Oh, nice.
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So anyway, that's 24 oranges.
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So the 800 minus 24 is 776.
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You could play a little.
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I have you need there.
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Kim, if you weren't as over as you are,
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was there anything else that kids might have done to get the 97
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with what we have?
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If you have nine bags, they can make an entry
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that's 90 bags.
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OK.
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And add it to the seven we already have.
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And so like 90 bags, if nine bags had 72, 90 would have 720.
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We had the seven bags.
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So we could add the 720 plus the 56 oranges and seven bags.
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And that could also get a 776.
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Nice.
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Cool.
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OK, last problem.
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What if we were at the race and we counted 784 oranges
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and we were super curious how many bags we bought?
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784 oranges.
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How many bags?
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Well, we just did 97 bags.
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And that was really close.
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776 is only one bag away from 784.
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So then it must be 98 bags.
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98 bags.
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Nice.
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Is that also two bags, 16 oranges under 800?
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784, 16?
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Nice.
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A couple different ways too.
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Cool.
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So Kim, we are suggesting to teachers out there
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that we can do problem strings to help kids think about eights
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that then lead into things like you just found 97 times 8,
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thinking and reasoning.
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You found 75 times 8, thinking and reasoning.
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And you found 784 divided by 8, thinking and reasoning,
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using what you know.
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And in the process, building multiplicative relationships,
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building multiplicative reasoning.
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So we're getting the facts, multiplicative reasoning,
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place value, reasonableness, magnitude, all sorts of things
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that a sense of what division means is happening.
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So this is what multiplication means, a feel for operations.
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I wonder if a kid ever ran into a word problem that said,
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I have 784 lovely oranges.
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If oranges come eight oranges in a bag, how many bags do I have?
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I wonder if a kid can go, oh, this feels like something
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I've done before.
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I have felt this oranges in bags before.
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I bam, I can dive in.
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In other words, what they're not doing is going,
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let's see, keyword oranges.
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Nope, I don't remember that as a keyword, right?
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They're not doing that.
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They've been reasoning.
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They've been in a situation where their brain
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has traveled this reasoning path.
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Word problems just become, if I kept my name,
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I tell you, our editor said to me on Sunday.
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He said, hey, that last episode that I just edited.
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So it was all about word problems,
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which was an episode that came out just a minute ago.
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He's like, I really like how you said,
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if we get kids reasoning, then word problems
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are just, we're just, we're keep reasoning.
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It's like, yeah, that really hits.
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Right, right.
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I think everything that you just described
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that's happening in this problem string,
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you know, you just listen to the reasoning
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and they're doubling and they're all of those things.
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I think there are kids like the man you man on the plane
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who probably see a multiplication table
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and their brain travels through those things.
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But we've got to do better by giving kids experiences
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so that not everybody who is doing that naturally
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has somebody helping facilitate that learning for them
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because they're capable.
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We just have to do things like these problems
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during this where we are exposing relationships
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so that they can grab on.
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Nicely said, yeah.
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And even the guy who did it naturally,
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why leave him to do it on his own?
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Like, he could have gone further faster
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if we would have actually helped him
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and now that we know how to do it, we can't.
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Y'all, I am reminded of an email that I got just the other day.
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I'm gonna butcher his name.
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So sorry, S. Sundaram.
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Sundaram, S. Sundaram.
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I am sorry.
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Delightful email who said, would you consider
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wrote memorization and meaningful memorization?
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The difference.
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What is needed for fluency is the second type.
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Fluency is meaningful memorization,
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which can also be described as he said,
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remember by repeated use in the right context.
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I'm gonna say that again.
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Remember by repeated use in the right context.
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So you're sort of saying,
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memorization could be linked to, we want to remember.
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Well, we do.
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We want kids to own their facts.
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That means they remember them,
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but we're going to get that memory
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by repeated use in the right context.
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And use repeated, is that what we just did in this
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promising repeated generating, repeated finding,
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repeated reasoning?
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I might say, remember by repeated reasoning
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in the right context.
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But I really, yeah, I really like that.
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Like, is it wrote memorization?
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No.
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It's meaningful memorization if the way we're defining
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memorization is remember.
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It's the remembering part by repeated reasoning
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in the right context.
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I really like that.
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So good.
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Yeah, I appreciate that redefining what
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memorization means.
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Nice.
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Nice.
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So we have another lovely download for you.
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If you would love to grab it, it is www.mathisfigurado.com slash
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facts.
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PS.
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Mathisfigurado.com slash math.
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You can do it.
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You can do it.
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I'm so done.
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I'll do it.
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Mathisfigurado.com slash facts.
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PS because it's facts, problem strings.
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So it's facts, PS.
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We'll get you facts, problem strings.
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Y'all, thank you for tuning in and teaching more and more
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real math to find out more about the math is figure outable
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movement.
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Visit mathisfigurado.com.
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Let's keep spreading the word that math is figure outable.
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Don't forget, go to mathisfigurado.com slash DMRK2 webinar.
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Can't believe we gave you a link that long to register for the free
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developing mathematical reasoning daily strategies, tools and
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activities to teach the big ideas in K2 book launch webinar
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taking place on October 8th.
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That's mathisfigurado.com slash DMRK2 webinar.
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We will see you there.
Topics Covered
K-12 math education
developing mathematical reasoning
K-2 companion book
math teaching strategies
webinar for K-2 teachers
math is figureoutable
avoiding algorithms in math
building relationships in math
memorization vs understanding
connections in mathematics
skip counting
napkin math
math teaching tools
math coaching
educational webinars