E 255. Fundamental Marking Drills & When to Handle

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 On X from eScouting, finding your truck when you get lost in the woods to getting permission.

spk_0 It's going to take you to the next level with Landowner Info to the areas that you think you'd like to go find ducks or grouse or whatever you'd like to hunt.

spk_0 So check them out on X, get in the hunt and get that permission, baby.

spk_0 Alright, it's the DT Difference.

spk_0 It's 30 years experience in the game, DT Systems.

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spk_0 They got the Super Pro dummy launcher and the remote dummy launcher.

spk_0 It's a great way for you and your dog to get ready for duck season.

spk_0 Loud bangs, make sure your dog's cool and gunfire before you use it.

spk_0 But I want you to add it to your repertoire, bag of tricks, and get you and your dog ready for duck season.

spk_0 It's the Super Pro dummy launcher by DT.

spk_0 Have you wondered if you wanted a force that your dog, maybe you think your dog's too soft?

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spk_0 Let's go, let's set goals and get you and your dog where you want to be this duck season.

spk_0 What's going on everybody and welcome to another episode of LoneDuck's Gun Dog Chronicles.

spk_0 Kevin is out of the office.

spk_0 He's got a real job work call.

spk_0 And so we've got a different Kevin here.

spk_0 Kevin Chef, the Retriever Coach, welcome back and thanks for coming to the in-house show, bud.

spk_0 Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

spk_0 What are you doing in Central New York?

spk_0 Well, I'm going to be in sprakers this weekend doing an in-person workshop there.

spk_0 That's awesome. How many people are coming?

spk_0 I want to say it's around 10.

spk_0 I only take seven or eight handlers in a workshop and then the rest of the server said.

spk_0 So yeah, I think there's about 10.

spk_0 That's awesome.

spk_0 Well, I want to give a shout out to the finger lakes and Empire State club members that are

spk_0 chefties. Everybody's heard of swifties, Taylor Swifties. They're all chefties.

spk_0 So they're excited to hear this podcast with you and welcoming you to Central New York.

spk_0 A bunch of them are going to be at your seminar.

spk_0 So somebody didn't know that.

spk_0 Tell them I said hi and bust their chops about being a chefty.

spk_0 I know. You better do it. I'm going to ask.

spk_0 I will.

spk_0 Well, today we've got a great episode for you. We're really excited about it.

spk_0 We touched on it with JD Bab that would be, I believe, last week's episode.

spk_0 And we kind of touched on handling on marks.

spk_0 And I saw something on your Facebook page that you did an awesome dissertation on

spk_0 proper timing when and how to handle on marks.

spk_0 And so this episode is going to be pretty thorough on

spk_0 when and how to handle on marks.

spk_0 General practice.

spk_0 We're going to talk about retired guns and like the art of teaching a retired gun.

spk_0 And then we're going to talk about handling on a retired gun and how you kind of

spk_0 each little segment how we're going to move and shake and go from there.

spk_0 So let's do a little good housekeeping in the beginning.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So I'm going to go first and you go.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Good housekeeping.

spk_0 We're going to have a couple of letters of puppies soon.

spk_0 So Quinn is being bred probably next week.

spk_0 Lizzy is being bred probably the late next week to the following week.

spk_0 We have a wait list.

spk_0 But if you're interested, you can go on the Loan Duck Outfitters website,

spk_0 fill out a form and we can reach out to you and kind of educate you on it.

spk_0 Also stay up to date on Instagram and Patreon where we'll put out there.

spk_0 Hey, we got two female spots available or whatever the case may be.

spk_0 So that's my good housekeeping and you.

spk_0 Well, I'm going to introduce myself because I don't know if all your viewers know.

spk_0 Wow.

spk_0 We get out of town.

spk_0 My name is Kevin Schaff and other people know me as the Retriever Coach.

spk_0 As I said, I do in-person workshops.

spk_0 I have an online membership platform called Fetch,

spk_0 which is what's been running now for about two and a half years where I coach people all over

spk_0 the world, basically, who want to train a Retriever and experience more joy with them.

spk_0 And in fact, our enrollment for Fetch is open right now.

spk_0 If anybody's interested in becoming a member and getting access to me so that they can

spk_0 ask their questions anytime they want or they want a program for their dog, whether they're

spk_0 puppy or burning all-age training.

spk_0 They're Fetch is open for them right now.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 So we're going to put that in the show notes so that it can funnel you to his Fetch program.

spk_0 And I've got a lot of friends again here at the Finger Lakes Retriever Club that have

spk_0 purchased your program and just speak very highly of it.

spk_0 So check it out in the show notes, click on it, look into it if it fits what you want to do.

spk_0 I got out, baby.

spk_0 All right, let's get into the show.

spk_0 So we're handling it on marks.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 What are some of the prerequisites for handling on marks?

spk_0 Well, first of all, the dog has to have all their foundational training.

spk_0 You know, we want to make sure that they've come through all of the yard work.

spk_0 We've done some handling drills beforehand, not just the T-work, but I think some other

spk_0 more advanced handling work that helps transition handling skills from the yard to the field to you.

spk_0 That's really important.

spk_0 And I think you've got to have a pretty good process in mind how you're going to transition

spk_0 dogs to handling on marks.

spk_0 You know, up to this point, every mark they've done, you've essentially just released the dog

spk_0 into the field, go get the birds.

spk_0 And so this is going to be a little foreign to them, even though they've done some handling

spk_0 in the drill work, as we said, and maybe on some early blinds, it's still going to be a little

spk_0 bit foreign to them to be handled on marks.

spk_0 And so it's not as simple as just blowing whistle and putting your arm up and expecting to get

spk_0 the right outcome. There's a little bit more to the process.

spk_0 It can get a little haywire for a little bit, right?

spk_0

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, they're barely learning to me.

spk_0 They're barely learning how to run a good blind.

spk_0 And then when they're in full momentum, full drive, and you're trying to stop them, and they're going,

spk_0 what are you talking about?

spk_0 This isn't what we do for the last eight to 12 months.

spk_0 You haven't done this on a mark.

spk_0 It takes a lot of practice and to maintain the discipline of stopping good.

spk_0 There's so many things to it.

spk_0 Absolutely. There's so many stimulating factors out there.

spk_0 It's not like when you're running those early cold blinds and there's nothing else out in the

spk_0 field. You're just trying to get your dog to a destination.

spk_0 Usually when we're handling on marks, there's other gun stations in the field that are influencing

spk_0 the dog. There's birds sent out there. They've heard gunshots or duck calls.

spk_0 These things are drawing the dog's attention so it can be much more difficult to get control

spk_0 of the dog. Yeah, good to agree more.

spk_0 We got the pre-rex knocked out. Let's talk about reasons why we would handle on a mark.

spk_0 I essentially think there are three reasons why we would handle on a mark.

spk_0 The first one is, and these are in no particular order, by the way, but the first reason

spk_0 that I'm going to talk about is we're handling a dog because they're failing to fight a factor.

spk_0 In case people don't know what factors are, factors are the things that push or pull a dog

spk_0 offline to the retrieve. That's wind, water, terrain, and cover. Sometimes it can also be the

spk_0 influence of another gun station. Yeah.

spk_0 And then the second reason why we would handle is the dog is failing a marking concept.

spk_0 And it's sort of similar to my last comment, but when we put gun stations in the field and they

spk_0 start to get a little bit closer together or the lines get closer together, we set up certain

spk_0 traps that the dog can fall into like going back to an old fall, overrunning a mark, switching,

spk_0 those types of things. And in order to teach the dog how to identify those traps and not to fall

spk_0 into them, then often we're intervening with a handle when the dog does fall into a trow.

spk_0 And then the third reason why we typically will handle on a mark is because the dog simply isn't

spk_0 going to get to the retrieve either on their own or even with gunner help. And we have no alternative,

spk_0 but to stop the dog and handle and get them just sort of salvage the retrieve with that part.

spk_0 Yeah. Couldn't agree more. All right. So let's talk about the first category, which was

spk_0 the factors. Wind, water, it's like captain plant wind. Why? Remember that show? Yes.

spk_0 Some of these people that listen probably don't remember it.

spk_0 Actually, I don't know. Sorry. How do I say that? Captain plant? No, our power is combined.

spk_0 We can say we plan. That's okay. Well, digging into factors a little bit, you know,

spk_0 typically the first factor we end up handling on his water. I mean, I have a certain flow to my

spk_0 training program. And usually if I'm going to be handling on water initially, it's going to be

spk_0 teaching them to where to get out of the pond first on mark. A lot of people work on cheating

spk_0 singles teaching the dog where to get into the pond. I like to start with teaching them where to

spk_0 get out of the pond first. Anyway, so we set up certain retrieves where the dog may be tempted to

spk_0 land grab. You know, we all like to take the path of least resistance, including dogs and

spk_0 ourselves. And so as if the dog thinks they can get away with doing less work or doing less work

spk_0 as an option, if they think they can get to a retrieve quicker, they're going to seek to get out

spk_0 of the pond early before they get to the retrieve. And the first bit of training is teaching the dog

spk_0 to stay in the water and swim all the way to the retrieve, at least for me. And maybe we should

spk_0 just mention something here. We talked a little bit about this before the show. I don't believe there's

spk_0 any one way to to determine when the right time to handle a dog is on a mark or that there's one

spk_0 way to do training or a certain order to do it in. I think every trainer's kind of got their own

spk_0 take on it. And they don't necessarily know that there's a right or wrong. And so, you know,

spk_0 I'm going to give you my opinions. Bob's going to give you his opinions. Other trainers are going

spk_0 to give you their opinions. And none of us are wrong. I don't take as long as there's some thoughtful

spk_0 process, a methodical process that is really teaching the dog in a methodical way through certain

spk_0 steps so that they understand what's going on and they don't feel overwhelmed. But essentially,

spk_0 that first step is teaching the dog to stay in the water. So when they do begin to land grab,

spk_0 then we just blow whistle and the handle them at the appropriate time. And then we often combine

spk_0 a crosswind into that too. So we start to teach the dog to fight two factors at the same time

spk_0 in training. And that crosswind would be blowing towards the shore. Absolutely. You always want your

spk_0 factors working in concert with each other. So if the wind is pushing a dog to the left, the shore

spk_0 line should be drawing the dogs to the left as well. And the reason why we want to do that is

spk_0 if we're handling the dog to teach them to fight one factor, we're also handling it to each

spk_0 the other factor at the same time. Or let me put it another way. If you had factors that were

spk_0 working against each other and you were handling the dog, let's say because they were land grabbing,

spk_0 but you handled them with the wind. Now you would be telling them not to fight them in. So you

spk_0 would be actually undoing training. Right. Yeah. So think of yeah, or let's do a

spk_0 way. We're good. Yes. I agree. So whenever I'm looking at a down the shore mark,

spk_0 I'm always going to pick the side of the pond where the wind is blowing towards the shore.

spk_0 When you cast a dog with the wind, it's going to be easier for them to carry that cast. And you're

spk_0 you're not really teaching them anything. They'll push off of it more simpler. And so if you have

spk_0 the wind pushing them towards shore and have to cast into the wind, which is harder, they've

spk_0 actually got to comprehend what the heck is going on. I think I think through repetition over and

spk_0 over again, and just sort of maintaining that standard, hey, don't, don't land grab. Don't let

spk_0 the wind push you offline. That eventually the dogs come up with that answer. Yes. And it is fun

spk_0 when the light bulb clicks. Yes. So let's talk about, we'll use this as our example right now.

spk_0 Dog is swimming down the shore. They're going to get out early. You blow the whistle and you handle.

spk_0 What is the cast you're giving? I think that's a great question. And I think at this stage of the

spk_0 early on in their training, and maybe this still even applies as the dog gets older. But if

spk_0 I have to ask myself, or at least this is my philosophy, am I trying to teach my dog how to cast

spk_0 or am I trying to teach my dog to fight a factor? And if I'm if it's the latter, then I'm going to

spk_0 be helpful. And generally I am when it's about teaching the dog to fight a factor,

spk_0 I am going to give the dog a little bit of additional information, which which could mean that I

spk_0 increased the angle of the cast from a literal sentence or add a step to the cast, a lateral step

spk_0 to the cast to encourage lateral change in direction. I'm I'm happy to do that. I want to show the

spk_0 dog the way out of trouble. And because at a certain point, when I feel that I've taught the

spk_0 dog what the standard is through simply handling or using attrition, and I know we might be using

spk_0 some terms out there that people don't quite understand. I think we're good. We're good. Yeah. So if

spk_0 we're using, you know, if we're teaching a dog through handling through attrition through

spk_0 perhaps even throwing a bumper using some gunner help, at a certain point, we have to expect the

spk_0 dog to take some responsibility for maintaining that standard on their own. And when we feel we've

spk_0 been fair, when we feel we're not asking the dog to do something over their pay grade, and they

spk_0 simply choose not to maintain that standard, then we contemplate using correction. And if I'm going

spk_0 to use correction, then I certainly want to make sure that I'm showing the dog the way out of trouble

spk_0 by being helpful with my cast. Okay. So in that, let's go from like a young dog that we're teaching

spk_0 to and then switch to an advanced dog. So in the first example of a young dog that's learning

spk_0 this concept, we're going to, you, I'm going to reiterate what you said, you're going to give maybe

spk_0 more cast than you need to help them fight the factors longer, better, whatever. What if they

spk_0 scale up, meaning they would take that cast and then right back towards shore?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 If we're still talking about a young dog, and I probably like to add a couple of things here, but

spk_0 the first thing is I'm definitely going to jump to a nutrition. When I see a dog

spk_0 scale up or dig back, and I didn't get the right answer from the dog, just the quicker you can get

spk_0 your whistle out, the easier it is to communicate to the dog, hey, wrong answer. All right. And then

spk_0 calling the dog back just a few strokes if they're in the water, if they're on land, just two or three

spk_0 steps, that helps break down a little bit. Excuse me, a little bit of momentum. Yeah.

spk_0 And then reissuing the cast. And if I have to do that five, six, seven times, I will do it. But what

spk_0 it does is it gets the dog out of just a running state of mind into a thinking state of mind.

spk_0 They start to go, well, I've tried to do X, you know, several times. It didn't work. I obviously

spk_0 can't do that. So what are my other options? And often that's when you'll see a change in

spk_0 behavior. And I think that's that's what we have to focus on with the unduex is really teaching

spk_0 as opposed to relying heavily on on correction to get the answer that you want, because that comes

spk_0 with consequences as well. Right. All right. Now let's maybe switch gears to the more advanced dog.

spk_0 So they've been taught this concept, stay in the water, get out past the gun, stay in the water,

spk_0 get out past the gun, fight your factors. They go to get out early. What are we doing?

spk_0 Well, I think that we have to evaluate the situation first. You know, what's the level of difficulty?

spk_0 If you know, is that are we asking the dog to make a 25 year swim or we asking the dog to make

spk_0 a 150 year swim is the mark stand out or is it retired? Is it a single or is it part of multiple?

spk_0 And level of difficulty always plays into our our decision making. We all the other big thing

spk_0 that we have to look at is level of effort. Being perfect all the time is not what we're aiming for.

spk_0 Effort is what we're aiming for. And the minute we realize that the more quickly we in our dogs

spk_0 grow. So and I'll just put it in terms of like human beings. Think about it yourself. You're trying

spk_0 to let's say you're into archery and you've been out there practicing and practicing and practicing

spk_0 and you can't hit the bull's eye and you know, you're getting it on the outside of the rings and

spk_0 and I come up and swap you behind a head because you didn't get it in the bull's eye.

spk_0 Right. Is that going to get you to get it in the rings or get it in the bull's eye quicker?

spk_0 Is it going to make you feel like you want to try harder? Is it especially if I do it over and over

spk_0 again? Right. And you actually are putting a lot of time into trying to get it done right.

spk_0 A lot of physical mental effort into getting it done right. Right. And perhaps maybe if I came

spk_0 up behind you said you're doing a great job. Maybe if you move up a little bit, you'll get it a

spk_0 figuring some things out about what's what you're doing right, what you're doing wrong, how you

spk_0 need to improve when you need to breathe and you know, all those things. You're probably no more

spk_0 about archery than I was a good analogy. But how are you feeling about yourself at the end of that?

spk_0 And what level of effort are you going to bring to the situation versus my initial example where

spk_0 that might have turned into apathy. Your attitude might have turned to apathy. Well, I've tried as

spk_0 hard as I am as I can. I'm not getting it done. I just don't give a shit anymore. Right. So

spk_0 I know that really didn't answer your question directly. No, I think it was just a good

spk_0 discussion for people to think about. But I think that there are times. So I'll give an example.

spk_0 You got a dog that's been taught. And so we get a little bit of lack of effort by trying to

spk_0 get out early. They know they've been taught. So at that point for me, depending on the situation,

spk_0 like you said, there's difficulty levels. Like if it's retired, if, but if it's a standout gun

spk_0 and a typical down or two down the shore, and they go to get out way before the gunner.

spk_0 And it's an advanced dog. I'm

spk_0 I'm going to say on average, I'll probably let them get out. Let them make some momentum.

spk_0 Blow the whistle. Make a correction. Give them an overcast into the water. Let them swim a little

spk_0 bit. Stop them. And then a straight up cast like towards shore. Meaning they've got to stay.

spk_0 I'm not going to give them the. And then again, that's the advanced dog. The medium dog.

spk_0 I may give that same deal, but then I'd cast them away from the shore.

spk_0 Right? Try and coach them in that way. Hey, but stay in there longer. And it may be just a no

spk_0 here with a he got out no here. Get back in the water. Then like when you get out early, it's no

spk_0 boy now. But it doesn't have to be a lightning bolt from Jesus himself. Right? So I'm just,

spk_0 I'm talking out loud and now where it's like they've got to understand that they're I can coach

spk_0 you through it all the way. Now you've you've got some understanding and now you're being

spk_0 lack of effort. You're giving me lack of effort to get out early. Now there's going to. And I

spk_0 would say this too, if they continue to scale up, if they're in that medium category and they

spk_0 continue to scale up. All right. I try to show you the way. Now let's see how your way goes.

spk_0 Not good. Now get back in the water. And then I would give them that right back to stay in the

spk_0 water better longer and help them. If that makes sense. Yeah. I think you're I think I get where you're

spk_0 you're going with question and I agree at a certain, you know, when I've evaluated the situation

spk_0 and I deemed that it isn't over the dog's head and the dog is in the right state of mind today.

spk_0 And I've reviewed this a number of times and I think I've shown the dog what the standard is.

spk_0 And now they're simply not feeling an honest to maintain the standard on their own.

spk_0 Then yes, correction can come into play for sure. And it may even come into correction when I

spk_0 stop the dog the first time. I may not I may not even give them a chance by handling them first

spk_0 and say, Hey, you have to stay in the water. It may be I expect you to stay in the water because

spk_0 of all those things that I just mentioned. And if I have to remind you to stay in the water,

spk_0 then there's there is the potential that I might apply correction again. It's just taking into

spk_0 account all of the variables. And if I feel that the dog is again in the right state of mind.

spk_0 If I've done all the right training, if it's not over the dogs head, if it wasn't something that I

spk_0 reviewed six months ago, right? You know, we're not just getting back into the water after the

spk_0 having the winter off. Right. Yeah. There's there's there is that potential. Yeah. So I think that

spk_0 that would be at least in my example to me that's as their advance, that's how I would do it.

spk_0 And then the reason I would cast them back into shore with a straight up like we've got the wind

spk_0 blown to the left, land on the left, everybody that straight up left cast as soon as I give them a

spk_0 swim by over they swim. They get maybe 10, 15 feet into the water. I'm going to let them get a

spk_0 little bit. And then I'm going to stop them and cast them back. And if they go, he's casting me into

spk_0 land. I'll go know that that wasn't right either cast back over cast back left. And then I want to

spk_0 see him fight those factors at the advanced stage to say, I just need to stay in towards shore and

spk_0 that's my end goal. Yeah. I think you're talking about running like a shoreline water blind at

spk_0 this point. Are you towards down the shore mark? Down shore mark. All right. Let's say this. Let me

spk_0 ask you this to make it more black and white for the listener. What are your standards on the

spk_0 down the shore mark with a standout gun? My standard or the dog has to essentially swim all the way

spk_0 to the bird and just so people can watch this. And let's say the mark is at the tip. My fingers

spk_0 and my arm represents the shoreline. And the dog has to take, don't have to take a straight line.

spk_0 But they certainly have to stay in the water until they almost get to the bird. I could say,

spk_0 you know, a few feet early might be okay. And again, we're talking about a single and it's a standout

spk_0 gun. So the dog has a reference point. Yeah, that's probably going to be my standard. Yeah.

spk_0 I agree. I think in there's a line that I this is the art, not the science. I think in the

spk_0 finesse and the feel of each individual dog and each individual moment. But I like to have them.

spk_0 They've got to get past the gun. They've got to get past the gun and they've got to go past the

spk_0 gun a bit. Right. Then I watch their body language. Are they angling out or are they going?

spk_0 I did a plus b equals c. I swam all the way past the gun. Now a hard left shoulder gets me out.

spk_0 You know, like a like a yeah, I mean, there's just like a feel to it. Yeah, I do. I do appreciate when

spk_0 when a dog angles what we call angle out of angles out of the pond. Doves and just square out.

spk_0 And there's definitely some drill work out there that you can do to teach a dog. Yeah,

spk_0 that you didn't find it on fetch. You could. Yeah. So yes, I think that that's it's just a beautiful

spk_0 thing to see a dog that has the training involved all the pre racks, everything. And you just watch

spk_0 them angle out and power right on that bird. Yeah, it's probably one of the easiest things we can

spk_0 teach a dog really teaching a dog to swim down the shore and get out of the pond in the right

spk_0 place. The dog has in general has so much to reference to understand how to do that

spk_0 or trip. The new phrase that has so much reference, meaning there's a shoreline right there.

spk_0 Right. There's a gunner standing right there. We always throw the mark so the dog has to swim past

spk_0 the gun at a certain point. We just end up creating habits. And of course, there might be some

spk_0 correction involved in the dog just says, okay, this is the right way to do it. It is much more

spk_0 difficult to teach a dog to hold a crosswind in a field where there are no reference points.

spk_0 Yeah, and I think that's where this needs to kind of start moving towards, right? Like,

spk_0 we're now in a field. We've got some hay bales, a little bit of terrain, but not much. Just a

spk_0 touch cover really. Yes, keep it simple. Just keep it simple. So we've got a good, heavy crosswind.

spk_0 And how I explain to people is when we set up marks, we're setting up with wind at our back

spk_0 or a crosswind. We don't really want to send a dog on a mark with wind blowing towards us.

spk_0 That's the general rule of thumb. Yes. Are there instances where we have to or it turns the wind

spk_0 changes after the 15th dog and we're not stopping now. But when you're setting it up, you want the

spk_0 wind at your back or a crosswind either way. And I like if we have like a wicked heavy wind,

spk_0 we're doing crosswind marks and blinds and going to have some fun with it. And you just,

spk_0 you know that that's what we're doing that day. All right. So now how would you handle it, bud?

spk_0 Well, maybe we should talk about set up a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So just like we did in the,

spk_0 maybe we didn't talk about it much. But when we're setting up a mark to train on teaching a dog to

spk_0 fight factors, generally, the rule of thumb is to throw the bird in a direction that would cause the

spk_0 dog to have to fight the factors in order to get to the correct side of the gun. So yeah, if the

spk_0 wind is pushing the dog to the left, then we should throw the bird to the right. That way the dog

spk_0 that's fighting the wind is going to stay on the correct side of the gun in general. So just keeping

spk_0 that in mind, now how, you know, if we're training it was a question, how are we going to train on it?

spk_0 Sure. I don't remember. Okay. Well,

spk_0 so we know how we're throwing the mark. And now we have to just decide on, well, what's the standard?

spk_0 What standard does the dog have to meet? Let's pause because you bring up a good point. So if we're

spk_0 throwing it left to right, the wind is blowing left to right. The wind is blowing in the opposite

spk_0 direction. We'll say it again. So if we're throwing the first of all, let's talk about the factor,

spk_0 which way is the factor? Which way is the wind blowing about? Left to right. There's a

spk_0 wave of the wind. We're facing out here. Wind's blowing this. Wind's blowing left to right.

spk_0 Yeah. So a dog that's not fighting the wind is going to fade to the right. Yes. Yep.

spk_0 Yep. So are we going to reward the dog that's not fighting the factor by throwing the bird with the

spk_0 wind? Yeah. Or are we going to throw the bird in the opposite direction so that the dog that is

spk_0 fighting the wind factor is going to get to the correct side of the gun station. All right. I got

spk_0 two answers for you. And I know. I'll let you have to decide whether you're judging the dog or

spk_0 you're training the dog because I know where your head is at right now. You're saying that I know

spk_0 what you're thinking. You're thinking yourself. If the dog goes under the arc of the bird or behind

spk_0 the gun, they're going to win the bird and run over and get it. And that's true from a judging

spk_0 standpoint. If you're out there judging a hunt test or you're judging a field trial, you don't

spk_0 want to reward the dog that that that that get you know, you don't want to reward the dog. Not

spk_0 necessarily reward the dog, but allow a dog to win the bird and come up with it. If you can. You try

spk_0 to protect your bird so you can truly find out if the dog is marking the bird. But in training,

spk_0 mm hmm. Our focus is on teaching the dog to fight the factor. Good point. And so if we're teaching

spk_0 the dog to fight the factor, then we want to put the bird where it causes the dog to do additional work

spk_0 to get to the bird. We're not talking about marking right now. Right. And that's what you've got

spk_0 to separate. We're not actually teaching the dog to mark. We're teaching the dog to fight the wind.

spk_0 That's where our focus is. And so if I throw that bird into the wind, now the dog has to actually

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spk_0 The great point. So now as we talk about handling on that mark,

spk_0 because so again, I'll still bring it in to maybe make it clear for me.

spk_0 If we're throwing into the wind, that means that they go under the arc or run at the gun,

spk_0 they're going to wind the bird and be successful. But that's not what we want to teach. So

spk_0 I'm going to stop you right there. If they go under the arc, okay, actually, let me ask you a

spk_0 question now, because this is where we were going initially when I started this conversation.

spk_0 What's your bare minimum requirement for the dog? What's the standard the dog has to meet in order

spk_0 to show that they're adequately fighting the wind? Because that's what this training is about.

spk_0 And I think that that's where I don't have a great answer. It would be in the moment of watching it.

spk_0 Like if they leave the line and automatically just kind of start going at the gun,

spk_0 or maybe 50% of the way there on maybe 150 yard mark, the wind is starting to push them and

spk_0 they're just fading and fading and fading. I have this thing in my heart where I don't want to

spk_0 handle too close to the gunner. You know what I mean? So it's like that literal two second decision

spk_0 to make where if they get, if you have paws on that thaw in your head and you go, I didn't blow the

spk_0 whistle. Now he's too close to the gun station. And yeah. So let's go back to our watermark because

spk_0 you asked me, what's my standard on the watermark? Yeah. My standard on the watermark is the dog has

spk_0 to get out almost at the bird. Right. But when I have a stand-up gun and it's a single. So

spk_0 that's the standard the dog. That's that's essentially the line the dog has to I hate to use this

spk_0 turk is it's not exactly how it's done. But that's the line the dog has to take. Yeah. Now I'm

spk_0 going to tell you I don't enforce the line. I just enforce where the dog gets out of the water.

spk_0 But that's my bare minimum requirement. You can't use that standard when it comes to

spk_0 teaching a dog to fight a wind. Okay. You're standard. You have to look at a little bit different.

spk_0 And in fact, I use this approach for wind and terrain. If I'm asking the dog to angle terrain or

spk_0 I'm asking the dog to fight across wind, I have to know in my mind what's acceptable in terms of

spk_0 the dog's performance. A dog has to show me that they're willing to fight the wind. A dog has to

spk_0 show me that they're willing to angle the terrain. So what I do is I look at exactly where the gun

spk_0 is positioned. I draw an imaginary line from the mat where I'm running from to the thrower. And I

spk_0 require the dog to stay on the upwind side of that line. If the dog fades beyond that line or

spk_0 onto the downwind side of that line, that's when I blow my whistle. The dog is showing me they're not

spk_0 adequately maintaining the standard. Because typically that line will continue to fade and fade

spk_0 and fade with the wind. Do you mean the line? So let's restate it again.

spk_0 Because if I'm halfway not with it, then the listener might not be with it. So you draw from

spk_0 the mat to the you said to the bird boy. Yes, I draw an imaginary line. First of all, let's back up

spk_0 even a bit. Okay. We know we're throwing the bird into wind. Use my head as I'll be I'll be

spk_0 this. I'll be the thrower. I'm going to throw the bird into wind. It's going to land at your head.

spk_0 Okay. Now the the if you've looked from my head to that, I think there's a black sign, but oh no,

spk_0 that's on the screen. But anyway, if you if from where I'm standing, the thrower all the way to the

spk_0 handler or trainer is that imaginary line. Okay. Okay. Now the dog has been released to come and

spk_0 retrieve the mark that's where Bob is sitting. But the dog is coming at me and then starts to fade

spk_0 behind the gun or what we call behind the gun or downwind of that line. This is upwind of the line

spk_0 because I'm throwing the bird into the wind. The dog is starting to fade downwind of that imaginary

spk_0 line between me, the thrower and the person that's training. Okay. When the dog does that, that's the

spk_0 point at which I blow my whistle. Okay. And the the first part of the process is just saying stop

spk_0 doing what you're doing. And then all I'm going to do is give the dog generally a helpful cast.

spk_0 I'm not going to be precise. I'm not I'm not trying to teach the dog how to handle. I'm trying to

spk_0 teach the dog to fight the way. So it's going to be a little helpful because I got to take him to

spk_0 account that the factor has a certain amount of power where and I've got overcome that power. So

spk_0 I give the dog a little additional information and if the dog is willing to take the cast has

spk_0 generally decent handling skills and is disciplined, then they will start to shoulder into the wind

spk_0 and come back to this side of the gun. And when they're doing it, they're fighting the wind to get

spk_0 to the bird. Gotcha. You are the bird. Right. Right. Right. So the dog has to fight the wind. Again,

spk_0 I'm not teaching the dog to mark. I've simply teaching the dog how to hold a line to get to the mark.

spk_0 And that's the same thing that I that's the same way I approach a terrain. The

spk_0 dog is not squaring or sorry, not angling terrain. That dogs generally like to square straight

spk_0 down a hill or straight up a hill when we ask them to angle it. And if they square far enough that

spk_0 they're crossing that imaginary line below my whistle and hand. Gotcha. What if that imaginary line

spk_0 gets too close to the gunner? That's a that's a good point. So there is a point that I have a cut off

spk_0 meaning as the dog swing out to the retrieve out to the retrieve out to the retrieve. And they're like

spk_0 maybe they're just holding that line directly at the gun. They're they're not they're the the

spk_0 the it's it's it's questionable. I think I'm going to go the wrong side or they're going to get to

spk_0 the correct side. And then all of a sudden they break to the incorrect side of the thrower.

spk_0 If they're within 15 to 20 yards of the mark, I don't handle at that point. I need I might say stand

spk_0 up and take a step toward the bird. Right. To the thrower. So hopefully that that acts as a bit of a

spk_0 steering wheel to get the dog shifting over into it. But probably what's that what that is saying

spk_0 is that the dog doesn't really remember exactly where the bird is if they're not because at that

spk_0 point, the dog is not working on holding a line when they get to that last 20 yards. They're working

spk_0 on finding the bird in the fall area. So you got to start to question and I'm talking about a stand

spk_0 out gun here. By the way, yeah, the dog has a reference point. So that's it's interesting that

spk_0 you're comfortable with them just taking a straight line right at the bird boy. Like that is

spk_0 your line. Um, yes, I'm absolutely comfortable with it because again, I'm going to ask you,

spk_0 we're working on marking. Are we working on teaching the dog to fight across wind? I think it's

spk_0 kind of bold. And I would disagree. I think true. I mean, disagree, but it's not it's not that

spk_0 I think you're wrong because I think everybody's got a bit of it. As I said before, it was no one

spk_0 way to do this. Yeah, we all have a kind of compartmentalized in our heads. But I guess my

spk_0 thought is it's easy to hold your line and hold your angle if you run right at the gun. It's to

spk_0 me that's not there's like a part of that effort that we're talking about where if phyto

spk_0 doesn't almost have to think because they know just run straight at them. And that's

spk_0 and I think, you know, we had other people on the podcast where it's like, well, if he runs at the

spk_0 gun and he hooks into it, he finds the bird and you win the trial. Great. So don't nit pick him

spk_0 for running at the gun. And I don't nit pick him for running at the gun. But I do think that there's

spk_0 like that is your target. That is your reference point. And if I'm sending you straight at it,

spk_0 or that that's my line where when they deviate from the line, that's what I'm going to handle.

spk_0 It's to me a little bit easier for them to shoulder the wind when

spk_0 they've got that target or like a white pole blind or something like that. Does that make sense?

spk_0 Are my, am I going to sit in front of the horse? I can see how our mind can certainly go there.

spk_0 Okay. But I'd like to expand on a little bit. Let's do it. Because this is an awesome

spk_0 conversation. I mean, it's helping me too. Yeah. And I have to say, Bob,

spk_0 just like you feel like you're growing after 30 years of training dogs, I'm growing more now

spk_0 than I ever did. Yeah. And I just, that's what I love about it. I love having his conversations.

spk_0 I love watching dogs. I love having conversations with everybody, the train dogs,

spk_0 because I know I can still be enlightened. I can learn something new. I just, it's just awesome.

spk_0 Anyway, if it just sort of paint a picture for people, I think you really have to break

spk_0 marking down into three categories, marking training. Okay. And the one area that we're talking

spk_0 about right now is what I call line training. It has nothing to do with marking a bird. Okay.

spk_0 I'm simply focusing on teaching the dog to hold a line because dogs that don't hold a line

spk_0 can end up in the wrong places. Yeah. Right. So that's one area that we need to devote a certain

spk_0 amount of our training to crosswind training, teaching the dog to not land grab, teaching the dog

spk_0 to angle train, teaching the dog to not avoid cover. And again, that we, if we can, we like to isolate

spk_0 those individual components and simply focus on that. The second area of marking training is what

spk_0 I call conceptual marking or destination training. That's teaching the, did you have questions? No,

spk_0 I thought you looked like you were about to say something. No, no, I'm drinking it in. Okay.

spk_0 So the second area is what I call destination training or conceptual marking. And that's where

spk_0 we set up marking tests in the field in a certain way that teach dogs individual concepts. We have

spk_0 three or four main concepts. There's check down birds. Those are marks that dogs tend to overrun

spk_0 because another gun station or something else is drawing them deep of the actual destination.

spk_0 They should be going to there are punchbirds. Those are marks where the dogs have a tendency to not

spk_0 get to because some element is causing their momentum to break down before they arrive at the

spk_0 destination. There's what I call equidistant marks, which is things like mama popper or converging

spk_0 mark, converging marks. They're both going in the right direction or sorry, the same direction.

spk_0 But they're relatively close together. And in those situations, dogs can end up switching.

spk_0 They can return to an old fall or they can avoid going back to the second bird of those

spk_0 equidistant marks because they feel like they're returning to an old fall. Right.

spk_0 And in that trait, when I'm doing that type of training, I'm setting up the gun stations in a

spk_0 certain way that the dog may fall into those traps. And when they do, I'm going to intervene in

spk_0 some way, whether that's through handling or through gunner intervention, but something is going to

spk_0 happen to help the dog learn to identify those traps. And they're also going to learn at the same

spk_0 time how to prevent themselves from falling into those traps. I don't care what line they take to

spk_0 those birds in general. I mean, within reason, I'm not working on teaching the dog to hold the line.

spk_0 I'm focusing on getting the dog to go to the destination. I've sent them to and recognize it when

spk_0 they get there and then dig in and stay there until they find a bird. Destination training. The

spk_0 third area is the one that you're talking about a moment ago. And that is actual fundamental

spk_0 marking and memory development. And that's where we focus on

spk_0 accuracy. Teaching the dog to mark accurately or not run at the gun if that's your, if that's

spk_0 what you, you know, one of the things that you're having an issue with with a certain dog. But in

spk_0 essence, we're teaching the dog to, you know, pinpoint precisely where that bird is.

spk_0 I'm not talking about destination. I'm talking about where that bird is relative to the

spk_0 thrower and generally to go straight at it. And then when they get there to put on a very organized

spk_0 and methodical hunt to come up with it very cleanly so that they're not burning up a lot of

spk_0 pencil on the paper, right? We're also working on memory development or confidence in memory. I

spk_0 want to set up tests that are specifically designed to teach or hone the dog's mechanics with respect

spk_0 to watching multiple marks being thrown and picking up memory retrieves. And so if I, if I focus on

spk_0 each one of these individual areas on their own and not try to combine them into tests,

spk_0 then the dog walks away from each one of these different types of tests going, I got, I know what I

spk_0 need to do better to do that or I know what I need to do to do that better. I know what I need to do

spk_0 to do that better and I know what I need to do to do that better. And hopefully when they get to

spk_0 the field trial or the hunt test, it all comes together so that the dog can do those more complex

spk_0 challenging tests really well. And I know we kind of got away from you where you were at, but

spk_0 when you start talking about the dog is running at the gun, well, I don't care that the dog's

spk_0 running at the gun because I'm not working on marking accuracy right now. I'm working on

spk_0 teaching the dog to hold the line and fight the wind. And if we want to take that even just a step

spk_0 further, well, let's, if the dogs had a certain level where they're fighting the wind adequately

spk_0 with a standout gun, let's retire it. Or let's make it the second bird of a double.

spk_0 Right. That's good. Ah, I don't even know how to respond to it because I feel like that's

spk_0 it is high level. And it's, it's about the fundamentals that maybe as I'm rolling through

spk_0 dogs of different stages of their career, right? I don't they're not all the same that maybe I'm,

spk_0 I've got to run the same setup with a bunch of different skill level dogs. So in my head,

spk_0 I'm going, well, this dog's here, this is what I've got to work on with this. This, this dog's

spk_0 here is what I've got to work on with this. And so it's less individualized. And therefore,

spk_0 my standard is slightly different. And so it makes sense of how you just described it. But then I'm

spk_0 trying in my brain while I'm hosting a podcast go, what the fuck you have? I've been in your shoes,

spk_0 you know, that's a pro, you know, 10 years ago before I quit training dogs personally.

spk_0 That was always the challenge. Like, you know, you have several levels of dogs. They, and then

spk_0 within those several levels of dogs, you have dogs that need different training in order to really

spk_0 dial on, dial in on each dog's, you know, issues or when you have strengths, weaknesses,

spk_0 holes, whatever. Exactly. And, and so you do your best to, to try to, try to accommodate all the dogs.

spk_0 It's a challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then jump into a podcast. Yeah.

spk_0 And then jump into it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's great. So if that is your standard on a holding

spk_0 holding their line with the wind pushing them to back side the gun in essence.

spk_0 Soon as they deviate that line, that's when you're stopping and handling.

spk_0 Generally, yes. There can be some nuances there. But again, it's looking at what, what's the

spk_0 intention of the dog? Oh, by the way, can I ask you a question? Sure. Okay. Let's say, I don't know

spk_0 right off the hop, they end up five yards on the incorrect side of the gun. But after taking several

spk_0 steps, they start to hold the line, a straight line. Yeah. I'm probably, are they fighting the wind?

spk_0 Yeah. They are fighting. Yeah. They're probably in the wind. And the reason why I bring that up,

spk_0 and I hope people were able to catch that. But the reason why I bring that up is we have to look at

spk_0 what the intentions or the level of effort of the dog are to fight that factor, not get too hung up

spk_0 on how, on where their line is exactly. It's like ask yourself, is the dog physically fighting the wind?

spk_0 They might be on the wrong side of the line. But if they're holding a straight line and not getting

spk_0 any further offline, and they only went 10 yards in the wrong direction and then held 350 yards in

spk_0 in the right direction, just because they're on the wrong side of the line, doesn't mean they're

spk_0 not fighting the wind. And so in that instance, would you have the gunner take a step out, or would you

spk_0 still feel like there's got to be a point where you've got to handle them so they aren't backside

spk_0 in the gun, or would I would, in that situation, I would be on the radio and go take a step, bud.

spk_0 I think that's the only thing I would do because if I'm stopping the dog to handle them, what am I

spk_0 stopping the dog to handle them for? You're telling them they're doing it wrong. Yes. That's about,

spk_0 let's even go a little bit further. What are we stopping the dog to tell? What are we trying to

spk_0 improve by stopping and handling the dog? They're aligned to the bird. Be more specific.

spk_0 You're killing these balls. Okay. I'll have you. We're trying to teach them to fight the wind.

spk_0 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're not trying to teach them to get to the right side of the gun station.

spk_0 All right. Don't get hyper focused on something that doesn't matter. At least not today when we're

spk_0 doing this training. Gotcha. If the dog ends up on the wrong side of the gun, and we handle,

spk_0 simply because they got to the wrong side of the gun, I don't think we're sending a clear message

spk_0 about what they need to do to improve on the training that we were doing today. Not you guys,

spk_0 right? I want to just focus on teaching the dog to fight the wind. It's not about getting to the

spk_0 right side of the gun. They're the correct side of the gun. Okay. Yeah. But so, but getting the gun

spk_0 erupt is stepping toward the mark just because maybe they didn't quite remember where the mark was.

spk_0 That would be fine. Yeah. To me, it would just help them fight the wind a little more.

spk_0 Stay on the good side, which I think is teaching them. Make some good last minute decisions. Yeah,

spk_0 exactly. Yes. Don't just now go out there and walk up the last 3% of the mark because you got there.

spk_0 Yeah. Exactly. So, that's kind of my go-to for a lot of my quote-unquote handling on marks is

spk_0 I do lean on the gunners a bit when they're young. Like when they're a younger dog learning this stuff,

spk_0 lean on them all the time. That's how you keep doing it. Yeah. I don't, it's not just when they're young. I mean,

spk_0 think of your thrower as a teacher out there. Yes. Not a helper. Yeah. They having a good bird boy,

spk_0 and that's the hardest part is when I get a new employee and they've got to learn to be a bird boy.

spk_0 It's like, dude, I don't want it. You can be on your phone when the dogs come in back with the bird.

spk_0 I do not want to look up while you're on the way. I'm sending this dog out there and you're looking

spk_0 off into Never Never Land. They've got to be my aid and be ready with another bird to throw. They

spk_0 need to be ready to take a step. They can't be sitting down on the four wheeler. There is so much to it.

spk_0 And I get it, right? I do it for a living. I've got four kids out in my back field right now working.

spk_0 Not everybody has that. You've got wingers and bumper boys and gunner gun. What are the

spk_0 thunder launchers? Like you have those kind of tools to kind of try and get on that same level. But

spk_0 at the end of the day, the best person that can help you and your dog is someone out in the field helping

spk_0 you throw birds and bumpers. So your significant other, your kid, and like some people have like,

spk_0 I've got a seven year old. That seven year old is learn how to read. We can't really rely on a

spk_0 seven year old to do it right. And a hunting buddy or a training buddy, it's imperative that a warm

spk_0 blooded educated person that understands our goal today is out there ready to help you in the field.

spk_0 So and if you only have one person just put them on the key station, you know, you might have three

spk_0 marks up in the field and you can use your mechanical launchers on the birds that aren't key birds.

spk_0 But those ones where you know, you know, the dog can potentially fall into some traps or not maintain

spk_0 a standard. That's where you want to put your your live person if you have one or put some, put a

spk_0 second wing out there that can throw a second bird if you need to. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? That's a good

spk_0 one. So all right. So we kind of that was a good, I mean, it helps me. I mean, this is a part of

spk_0 the reason I started this podcast is to help me. Right? Like, we're all trying to get better.

spk_0 And there's so many little things that I take away from each episode and guest. We're like,

spk_0 you know, the way you thought of that is different than the way I necessarily think of it.

spk_0 But it makes sense. And so maybe over the next couple of weeks as I'm working, I'll be like,

spk_0 no, yeah, where are I? I see here. You know, and it's good. It's good to think like that.

spk_0 You make an excellent point that I want to mention here. It's, it's the people that leave their

spk_0 ego at the door and say, I don't have to have all the answers. I don't have to know how to do

spk_0 everything. I'm on this journey. And this journey is all about learning and growing and

spk_0 finding every opportunity to do that. Right? And being comfortable with that. And I mean,

spk_0 if we could all be like you, then there'd be some, there'd be some real competition out there.

spk_0 And it's taken me a long time to get to that place. You know, when I was in my early part of my

spk_0 career, I was afraid what other people would think if I didn't have all the answers. And

spk_0 for everybody that's listening out there, if you can leave your ego behind and just say, I'm going

spk_0 to, I'm going to learn from anybody that I can. I don't care how much experience they have or

spk_0 whether they've trained one dog or 300 dogs, whether they're a pro or an amateur, everybody

spk_0 potentially has a pearl for me. And I don't have to, I don't, I don't, I'm not worried about

spk_0 exposing Ching-Samaama because they don't need Arter. Right. That's just fabulous. And I think,

spk_0 I, that's one thing I love everybody to take away from this podcast. Yeah. It's such a nuanced

spk_0 game. There's really not much like it. Probably, you know, horse anybody that works with animals

spk_0 getting them to a high level probably has an understanding of what we're working with. But

spk_0 once you get good at maybe cutting wood or cutting down trees, you'd probably find a few people

spk_0 that could say, like, hey, if you did this, the tree would fall better. But there's not,

spk_0 this is like every dog's personality is different, every, everything is so nuanced.

spk_0 And a mistake could happen that now I'm scratching my brain going, well, I don't, I've got a

spk_0 roll of decks of stuff I've done in the past. But I could call you, I could call you, I could call

spk_0 you, and I could get four different answers. And one of those answers could help me make that

spk_0 dog successful. So yeah, leave the ego at the door. And I think we had Colby Williams on maybe two

spk_0 or three episodes ago. And he said that, that that was his like, how he rose to at a young age be

spk_0 successful is he got to be around so many like top tier trainers, what he liked, what he didn't like.

spk_0 And he just absorbed it all. Instead of saying, I know everything, he took it and ran with it.

spk_0 And then still is humble enough to call people saying, what do you think? Yeah, that's crazy. So

spk_0 good deal. All right. So we've kind of gotten, we knocked out fighting the factor. Do you think we

spk_0 knocked it out well enough? I think we did. I think, you know, we've talked about, when would

spk_0 you recall, what are the corrections we would make for for it? Recalling for failing to fight a

spk_0 factor is very rare for me. Yeah. I think we're about taking a crappy initial line, whether it's a

spk_0 factor or not. Uh, certainly, but I can tell you that if I'm going to stop a dog and, and I have,

spk_0 you're right, that brings up a very important point. So if I am going to stop a dog and call

spk_0 them back for a poor initial line, or sometimes you even get the sense that it's a boi dance. Yeah.

spk_0 I was something of something. I don't react quickly. I let whatever's unfolding develop.

spk_0 And I let the dog get significantly away from whatever training I'm doing. If the training is

spk_0 out here and the dog takes off going here, I'm not going to stop the dog within five yards or

spk_0 10 yards and go to no here because that just continues to put pressure here because sometimes dogs

spk_0 are avoiding things. Right. I'm going to let the dog go, go, go, go, go, go, they might go 50 yards

spk_0 before I blow whistle. And sometimes it takes a little bit of time to figure out what's going on

spk_0 to like, is this dog avoiding the test? Is this the bolting? What is going on here? And, um, yeah,

spk_0 let it develop. You've got nothing to lose when you get a really bad initial line.

spk_0 I also think in most instances, especially in a voidance scenario, like maybe we're looking at a

spk_0 pond and they got to cut the corner and get into the pond at the right place, or you know,

spk_0 they're avoiding a gun station that's close and they're pushing off of it and then they want to go

spk_0 out to never, never land and not try and hold the line. Um, I think allowing them to carry that

spk_0 just enough, whereas like, you know, you screwed up. Come on. Let's redo this. And then I would,

spk_0 I'd be quick to let's help them out somehow, like re-throw that bird or move up a little bit. So

spk_0 whatever that situation that's making it because a lot of it's perceived pressure. You're right.

spk_0 So let's let's simplify something here to make it less intimidating for them to tackle what we're

spk_0 working on. I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think that the dog generally is avoiding

spk_0 something and usually what they're avoiding is pressure and they're looking for a way to escape

spk_0 that pressure and if you react by putting more pressure on a situation or even by not simplifying,

spk_0 it's probably going to get worse rather than better. Yeah. And I think, you know, this is where

spk_0 when we talk to folks, you know, patients, like, I'm not perfect. I'll lose my patients with the best

spk_0 of them. But it can't be every day. It can't be every time that dog comes out. It can't be,

spk_0 it just can't be. You have to somehow go into some zen state. Like, I've got dogs on the truck that

spk_0 will make you immediately go, here we go. Let's deal with this sucker. Yeah. What do we got today?

spk_0 But you can't be that way because then you're almost manifesting that to happen. And so if you can

spk_0 come out swinging and keep that patients, especially when you know you've got a dog that's already

spk_0 in like a little funk or, and it's been a couple weeks, it just aren't doing the right things and

spk_0 we've taught them and they know and they're just, man, they're in that mode. Well, guess what,

spk_0 you probably are too. By the way, that third area I was talking about, and I was talking about,

spk_0 accuracy and confidence and memory and mechanics that also includes state of mind. Yeah.

spk_0 They got to be comfortable. Yeah, they've got to be confident. They've got to be comfortable. They've

spk_0 got to be motivated. Yeah, and but let's not get too far. Yeah, aren't glad. So I think we have

spk_0 talked about factors at least enough for now. I know we're limited. Yeah. So let's

spk_0 something move on to another area where we're handling on marks. So we, I'd like you to just do a

spk_0 quick dissertation on your approach to teaching a dog a retired gun. Oh, okay. And then the last

spk_0 portion of the podcast will be how you feel about handling on retired guns. Okay. So we're not going

spk_0 to cover concepts. What can we mean? Well, we talked about in the secondary of training with

spk_0 destination training. And it's a little bit different. Or do you want to cover that? Or do you

spk_0 just want to do just want to work do retired guns? Because I know we're kind of, yeah, we got about

spk_0 30 minutes. And I mean, what do you want to do? 30 minutes like that. What do you want to cover?

spk_0 Hit the destination one just so everybody understands what I'm talking about. So remember destination

spk_0 training or conceptual marking is setting up tests where dogs can fall into traps like overrunning

spk_0 a check down bird or a punch, you know, breaking down early on a punch bird or switching on them.

spk_0 Equidist of marks or whatever. And in those tests, we're not teaching the dog to fight factors.

spk_0 We're not handling the dog to ask them to be disciplined about fighting the wind or getting

spk_0 in the water where we may be presented with opportunities where the dog falls into one of those

spk_0 traps that I just mentioned. And sometimes handling comes into play. For instance, the very first

spk_0 concept that I work on is not returning to an old fall. We set up a particular marking test

spk_0 where the dog may fall into the trap of ending up going back to a place they've already retrieved

spk_0 bird from and not getting all the way to the mark of choice. Right. And that's a situation where

spk_0 we will handle not to teach the dog a hold the line. Simply with the only time we're going to

spk_0 handle them is when it's clear that they have made the decision to return to the old fall.

spk_0 Right. And by stopping and handling the dog out of the old fall or away from the old fall.

spk_0 And making sure that they get to the correct destination. That's how we teach the dog to recognize

spk_0 those traps. How not to fall into the right. And whether or not you handle depends on each individual

spk_0 concept. Sometimes it's a matter of stopping and calling the dog back. Sometimes it's a matter of

spk_0 having gunner intervention. There's three different tools you've got there. But that could be of

spk_0 a little bit more of a lengthy conversation than we have. But that's one of the areas for sure.

spk_0 Maybe we come back to it if we have a little bit of time. Yeah. Because that's good.

spk_0 We want to cover those other two areas. Yeah. No, I think that those are cool.

spk_0 We could do a podcast just on that. Probably could. Yeah. So all right. So let's take a dog that

spk_0 is up and coming and we want to run field trials. And the concept of a retired gun which real quick,

spk_0 you've got three dudes and white coats out in the field. Boom, duck, boom, duck, boom, duck. We've got

spk_0 three marks. Dog goes and gets the go bird. And he comes back and one or more are hidden. So they

spk_0 retired behind a clump of grass, a tree, a hay bell, whatever that case may be. They are now

spk_0 not visible to the dog. And that dog has to remember, hey, I saw a dude out there. I marked that bird.

spk_0 I know where I'm going. I got to go. That's a retired bird. That's a retired bird. Yeah. And so

spk_0 your question, I think your question is how do we teach dogs? Yeah. What's your process of teaching?

spk_0 Because all of our early dog training is done with standout guns. Whether you're running hunt

spk_0 test or field trials, as far as I'm concerned, you know, 90 plus percent of your training should

spk_0 all be standout guns. And at a certain point, actually very early in a dog's training, do we get

spk_0 on to hidden and retired guns? Usually when they're at the fundamental stage of training. So they're

spk_0 still in yard work at this point. And I'm a pretty specific way of doing it. And essentially what I do

spk_0 is I set up three gun stations in the field that are really wide apart. One's going to be well over

spk_0 here. One might be up the center and one well off to the side. And there are no more than 75 yards.

spk_0 Every mark is that short. And initially, I want to start off with retiring the

spk_0 thrower behind a holding blind something that's very identifiable. Yeah.

spk_0 But I will also as as this training goes on, blend in, you know, retiring the gun behind a bush

spk_0 or behind a gilly blanket or behind an umbrella at the various ways with my retire a thrower.

spk_0 So you you set up three stations in the field. And you're only going to do singles. So if you only

spk_0 have one person, they can walk around, but you need a person to do this. And what you do is you

spk_0 ask the thrower to walk laterally across the field out of their holding blind about seven or eight

spk_0 steps, seven or eight big steps there. There are substantial distance from their holding blind.

spk_0 Ontario 10 step like an Ontario 10 step exactly from our friend, the Canadian and and once they

spk_0 get to this is all in the setup phase, right. We haven't brought a dog to the mat yet because we

spk_0 have to set this up. So once the hand of the thrower seven eight steps out of their holding blind,

spk_0 have them throw a large will have them throw a large white bumper the distance of the throw about

spk_0 one and a half times the distance of a bird throw. I like to use large white bumpers for the marks

spk_0 at this stage. So all we're doing is identifying for ourselves where that mark is going to land.

spk_0 So once the bumpers on the ground, then have the thrower grab another white bumper, large white

spk_0 go out to where that bumper landed and T two bumpers up, team two up lay one on the ground and then

spk_0 prop one up on it like this. So the end of it is sticking up in the air. And what you've put out

spk_0 there is a target, a target that the dog can see from the mat all the way to the mark and when they

spk_0 get to the fall, that's critical. And I think you might even say you might have mentioned here that

spk_0 the sun should be at our back. If the dogs looking into the sun, those targets are going to be

spk_0 invisible. If the suns at our back, those targets are going to be glowing. So now we've got

spk_0 everything set up the way it should be. The thrower is going to be positioned seven or eight yards

spk_0 from the holding blind and they're throwing a bumper in the same direction away from the holding

spk_0 blind, away from where they're standing. I guess the average bird throws about 15 yards. Maybe

spk_0 sure, like something like that. So they're throwing a little bit more than that, maybe about 20 yards.

spk_0 Okay. And so then you bring the dog to line. You have the obviously you target the dog on the

spk_0 thrower. What's the dog is looking at the thrower? You signal for the thrower to shoot and throw.

spk_0 The bumper that the thrower's throwing should land right beside that target. Yes. Okay. You don't

spk_0 send the dog yet. Then you ask the thrower to retire. You wait until the bumpers come to rest

spk_0 on the ground first, then ask the thrower to retire. Now the thrower starts to walk back. What's the

spk_0 puppy or the young dog going to do? Look back. Start to watch the gunner walking back to the holding

spk_0 blind. Well, at this stage of the game, we're really showing that dog that the we didn't beam this

spk_0 person up into thin air. They just walked over and they sat behind something where they didn't they

spk_0 didn't disappear. They didn't evaporate. And then of course, they're still going to be looking

spk_0 there. And then you the trainer are going to feed the dog information once that once the the thrower's

spk_0 you the trainer are going to feed the dog information, push pull information to get them to look

spk_0 over toward the bumpers. And because you've placed a target there, that puppy is going to see the

spk_0 bumpers go, Oh, there's the bumpers. And they're going to lock on the target. Then you're going to

spk_0 send them. Yeah. And they're going to go and get the mark. And what you're doing is you're essentially

spk_0 teaching them the mechanics of retired gun marks and how to do marking exactly how you want them to

spk_0 do for not to run at the gun, not to run at the holding blind to run directly at the mark. And

spk_0 when you do that over and over and over again, you create a habit. You create the habit of

spk_0 staying focused on the mark. The dogs will stop watching the dogs the the the the the thrower walk

spk_0 into the whole environment. Right. They just know I just need to watch that target. And they end up

spk_0 running at the target, even when the targets disappear because you've created a habit. Yeah. That's

spk_0 good. So I'll be honest with you. Like when I first started running field trials, I had for I

spk_0 still 100% learning this game. That's what's making it really fun for me to advance my skill set.

spk_0 Right. So I didn't teach anybody a retired gun. I just had built master hunters. And it's like,

spk_0 well, we got to learn how to do a retired gun. Let's go. Right. Where if you bring them up as a puppy,

spk_0 knowing that you've got an end goal to do something like this, your toolbox is well way more

spk_0 full than when it's already two and a half, three years old. And now I'm like, wow, we got to do some

spk_0 retired guns now. But it would be makes sense to say aren't two and a half year old master hunter

spk_0 that comes to me for training that wants to try cues. Let's just do it like this for a little while

spk_0 and get comfortable with it instead of just send it. Yes. I you know, and remember how we talked

spk_0 about the three areas of marking that third area. This is part of it. I don't just do this with puppies.

spk_0 I suggest that people do it on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be every week or every month.

spk_0 But every once in a while, just say, hey, we're going to do walk away retired guns this week. We're

spk_0 going to because we're working on great marking mechanics and accuracy. And that's essential when

spk_0 you're running field trials. Dogs have to mark accurately or they're not going to the next series.

spk_0 Right. And even for hunt test dogs, those marks are so close together that you can end up in a

spk_0 wrong fall area very easily if you don't have a tight organized hunt. Right. And they're technically

spk_0 all retired. That was like my Siri behind being like coming from the hunt is like, well, they didn't

spk_0 have white code. So, you know, if you were to take that guy away, it'll be fine. You know,

spk_0 there's just so much to learn and grow and challenge yourself and challenge the dogs that it's

spk_0 been a fun adventure for me. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it because I've experienced it myself.

spk_0 Yeah. It's still experiencing. So, all right. So that's how we work on it with a pot and an older dog.

spk_0 Yes. When or go ahead. Well, I'd like to expand on it a little bit more with the older dog

spk_0 because you brought up memory too as well. Yeah. Can we go there? Yeah. So one of the other things

spk_0 it has to be as far as I'm concerned, it has to be a very regular part of your training is what I

spk_0 call the wide open equidistant triple. Okay. And it serves one while certain three things that

spk_0 you're truly working on, but you know, it's it's focused training that, well, let me explain how it's

spk_0 so you want to go to a field that's relatively flat where the factors are relatively neutral

spk_0 or non-existent, meaning you want to go on a day when there's not much wind, there's not heavy

spk_0 cover, there's not a great deal of roll to the terrain. You know, obviously, we're not going to

spk_0 have a water situation where the dog might be tempted to run around or or get out early. So,

spk_0 no real factors. And the reason why we don't want roll to the terrain is because when the dog leaves

spk_0 the mat for any one of these marks, we don't want the dog to be headed out and then all of a sudden

spk_0 drop down into a valley and be unable to see all the way to the destination. Okay. So they have to

spk_0 be able to see the destination from the time they leave the mat to the time they get there,

spk_0 or most of the time, like might be like a several steps where I'll be say, yeah, this quick.

spk_0 And we don't want a field that has a lot of hay bales or bushes or mounds, things that give

spk_0 the field character a variety. We want it to be a fairly simple field. So if we have that and we've

spk_0 got some distance, then what we want to do is set up three marks in the field that are again

spk_0 really spread wide apart. And we want to push those out a significant distance. If you're running

spk_0 huntests, maybe you put them out there 150, 175 yards. It's a little bit more than a huntest would

spk_0 be, but this is good experience. Or if you're running field trials, let's go 300, maybe 300 yards,

spk_0 maybe even a little bit more. Okay. If you can't, that requires a fair amount of room. But

spk_0 and all of these marks should be about the same distance from the mat. What we don't want to have

spk_0 is one of those gun stations right in a dog's face because that's a big distraction. We want the dog

spk_0 to look out and look at each one of these gun stations say that one is no import, no more important

spk_0 than that one or that one over there. Very good. No, no more distinct, no more attractive.

spk_0 So we set up those three gun stations wide apart and at every gun station, we want a holding blind.

spk_0 A holding blind, the dog can see not one that's behind a bush. We're not using a winger with no,

spk_0 no holding blind at it. We want holding blinds at every station. Okay. And we're going to throw a

spk_0 triple. We're going to throw a triple in order to accomplish a few things. First thing that we're

spk_0 practicing is line mechanics. So when you go to the line, you get an opportunity, you know,

spk_0 you have all the gun standing obviously invisible to three times. You get an opportunity to work on

spk_0 targeting getting the dog to pick out all three gun stations. Then you get an opportunity to work

spk_0 on the mechanics of getting the dog to swing from one gun station to another when the birds are

spk_0 being thrown. And you don't throw them in a simple order around the horn. You want to practice

spk_0 pushing and pulling. So that's maybe center right, left or right, left center. But you're going to

spk_0 do some pushing and pulling and you're going to have some big swings in there. So you're practicing

spk_0 those mechanics. And that's when you're probably going to find you get an opportunity to work on

spk_0 creeping because when there's big swings and it's a multiple, that's a new dog's going to walk for it.

spk_0 And then oh, we haven't got to retired guns. You have to do good. You're good. I love it.

spk_0 And so we get to practice these things and enforce some standards with respect to obedience.

spk_0 And then the next area that we get to work on is the mechanics of getting a dog ready for a memory

spk_0 retrieve one that's retired to right. The dog comes back with the go bird. And now you have to practice

spk_0 good tempo right. The dog sits down. You want to get their spine lined up once their spine is lined

spk_0 up. Take the bird then let them look out in the field. And so he get their bearings. What happened

spk_0 out there? And while they're doing that, you start to decide, do I need to feed this dog some

spk_0 information? To push pull, get them looking in the right direction. You do that. Then once you're

spk_0 looking in the right direction, you give them some more time to ask any more questions to have.

spk_0 You look for that body language that they're ready. And oh, the ears are coming up. The breathing

spk_0 slows down. Maybe they close their mouth. Maybe they lean in a little bit. All those things.

spk_0 You're and then when you see that body language, you say they're ready to go. They're looking in

spk_0 the right direction. I'm going to send them. Okay. So you get a chance to practice those mechanics

spk_0 on two birds. But here's the beauty of it that applies to retired guns. As long as you point and

spk_0 shoot the dog in the right direction, there's a 98% chance that they're going to get that mark without

spk_0 getting lost because you have set the mark up so that they're not going to fall prey to fract

spk_0 factors. They're not going to get lost because they lose sight of the destination or break down

spk_0 early because they lose sight of the destination. When they get within 50 yards of the mark,

spk_0 they're going to see the holding line without a doubt. So that's going to help them identify the

spk_0 destination. They're going to go to the destination. They're going to stop when they get to the

spk_0 destination. They're going to run around looking for the bird. They're going to find it and they're

spk_0 going to come back with it and you're going to get to do that on two birds. And so at the end of it,

spk_0 the dog's going, man, that was pretty easy. I actually can do this. And they develop this

spk_0 confidence in them to do retired guns. They also get to practice the mechanics of retired guns.

spk_0 That's extremely important. So you mentioned the distance for a Hunters 150 field trials 300.

spk_0 What's the distance between the holding blinds that you would have via?

spk_0 When they're separated by enough distance that there's no chance the dog's going to look over and go,

spk_0 oh, there's the holding mind. And end up at the wrong destination. Like good separation.

spk_0 Like when I do it, I literally, I could say there's probably 150 degrees of separation between

spk_0 the outside very wide, very wide apart because I part of it, like I said, very early on,

spk_0 is practicing the mechanics of swinging. Yeah. Right. And and and working on not moving forward.

spk_0 If I have to make a correction for forward movement on this test, everybody pick up your birds

spk_0 we're starting over again. Yeah. Very good. I like that. I'm so again, in my brain, while I'm

spk_0 listening to this, and I'm sure you guys who tune into this are doing the same thing, but I'm going

spk_0 in my head. All right. What field can I practice this one? And because I've got paydails and, you know,

spk_0 got your if you can't go 300 yards, don't worry about it. Do 200 yards. Right. Again, it's,

spk_0 it's the mechanics of the gettis to work on and the confidence your brain comes. One thing I want to

spk_0 mention because we've talked a lot about handling on marks and we've talked about fact, you know,

spk_0 fact teaching a dog to fight factors and teaching a dog to do concepts is that when you do that training,

spk_0 you you undo a couple of things. You undo accuracy because when you start to interfere with line

spk_0 or you interfere with getting to the mark, now the dog changes their focus. Their focus isn't

spk_0 on marking anymore. Their focus is on doing something on the way to marking. Right. And so marking

spk_0 tension. When you handle, you cost the dog to think, I've done something wrong. And so now you take

spk_0 away confidence. Right. And that's when you start to see, you know, if you've got a really good

spk_0 dog and you're wondering, why is my dog marking very well anymore? It's probably because you're

spk_0 hyper focusing on the first two areas and not doing enough of the third area. And that's why this

spk_0 training that we're just talked about is so important. You have to maintain confidence mechanics.

spk_0 Yeah, it's super important. It's such a balancing act between challenging them,

spk_0 teaching them, correcting them, back to teaching, but like it is so difficult to get a, that's why it's

spk_0 impressive to go to some of these trials and watch, you know, the FCAFC or National Field

spk_0 Champion, be like, hey, like that's a stud. And it's also, I was just at one last weekend. We're

spk_0 at the open. And I'm thankful to them that they brought, they, they had pamphlets made because

spk_0 that was the worst thing that ever happened to hunt test of field trials when they said you can

spk_0 just look online. Like the actual pamphlet is such cool information to look at who the dog is,

spk_0 who its parents are, and she kind of how old is that. It gives you cool reference, right?

spk_0 So I'm looking at this dog as an FCAFC. He ate it just like my dogs ate it. And I'm like, it,

spk_0 it is so hard to hit that accomplishment to just move on to the next series. It's impressive. And so

spk_0 it gives you a little solace that like I wasn't the only one to eat it. And there are dogs that are

spk_0 really, really, really good that ate it. And the exact same reasons that mind it. And so you just kind

spk_0 of put it in your roll of dacks of, okay, we can work on this, we can work on this. But then this

spk_0 conversation gave me some ideas of that's going to help several dogs on my truck. Continue to progress

spk_0 by just changing them my frame of reference. Just change it, giving me a couple ideas to work with

spk_0 them to build them slightly differently. And in the direction we want to go. Yeah, I can,

spk_0 especially the last part of this conversation, I can almost guarantee you that if you are deliberate

spk_0 of a blending in the training that we just talked about in the fundamental side of marking and not

spk_0 just thinking, I need to train hard every day. If I'm not training hard, I'm not getting it done.

spk_0 If you can get past that idea that you need to train hard every day and, and, and blend in the

spk_0 stuff we just talked about, you're going to see some real changes in how your dogs put together

spk_0 those tests that feel trials on hunt tests because confidence is extremely important under,

spk_0 mechanics is extremely important. Marking accuracy and that, that stuff is, I just can't, I think

spk_0 it's huge. Yeah, I do too. I think the other thought that we can maybe kind of close this out

spk_0 because we're talking about handling on marks. I believe that there is such thing as too much handling

spk_0 on marks. And therefore, you're going to, like you said, it can deteriorate your confidence.

spk_0 They're, it can deteriorate their confidence. It's putting them in a different mind frame of,

spk_0 I did something wrong or they start, you're just working on something else. I forget how you

spk_0 word it. And then you get a dog that might, might begin to just rely on you. Like they just,

spk_0 there's a happy medium in this conversation of too much of a good thing is not a good thing.

spk_0 That's, it's, and so I guess to finish my thought would be, then probably need to simplify.

spk_0 If you're finding that every mark you're throwing, we've got to handle, you're doing it wrong.

spk_0 You've got to, five days a week, eight marks a day or whatever, and you're handling on all of them

spk_0 because we're talking about handling on marks, you probably need to simplify and get that dog's

spk_0 marking ability back and make it less difficult in terms of fighting the factor, make it a little

spk_0 easier to fight the fact of the right way. Does that make sense? Absolutely. You know, as I said,

spk_0 one of the things that happens is apathy. If you're, if the dog is constantly wrong,

spk_0 then they just learn that they're always wrong and that, yeah, I don't have to worry about

spk_0 doing this right or that right or trying, trying, trying because Bob's going to tell me when

spk_0 I'm doing it wrong. And maybe I'm, maybe I'm just conditioned to getting my butt kicked anyway

spk_0 because these dogs have so much horseback running. So I think we've got to make sure that we're

spk_0 working on the third area of marking on a, on a regular basis. Yeah. That was good.

spk_0 You're very smart, gentlemen. You are, dude. It would disagree with you.

spk_0 I'll maybe. All right. In this regard, then, the way you think about things is very methodical.

spk_0 The way you explain it to our listeners is very methodical. And I appreciate it. And I

spk_0 appreciate you coming, taking time on your day. I know that you've got a big weekend ahead

spk_0 with the seminar. And so it means a lot that you come into the home and sit in the studio

spk_0 and do this with us and share your information with, with our guests. So there's a couple things

spk_0 I'm going to ask you. One, if someone wants to come and watch one of your seminars or, or have you

spk_0 come to their club or whatever, how would they go about facilitating that? Pretty straightforward.

spk_0 You can email me at the retriever. Sorry, let me think about the retriever coach at gmail.com

spk_0 or support at retrievercoach.com. You can go to my website www.theretrievercoach.com. If you want

spk_0 to check out my fetch membership, forward slash fetch, all of my events are listed on the website

spk_0 and the details about them, what level they are, what the focus is because the workshops, there's

spk_0 five or six different formats of workshops that I do at different levels. And so they're all listed

spk_0 there. People can can check that out. And if they want to attend one as an observer or handler,

spk_0 you can register right there on the website. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. And then just to give the fetch

spk_0 program another plug, what can that person who has a six month old puppy or a three year old puppy,

spk_0 what are they, what are they signing up for? Well, they're signing up for a lot of this. Because I do

spk_0 webinars once a month, I do Q&A sessions twice a month. They're live Zoom meetings where everybody

spk_0 gets to listen to me talk and ask questions. They get access to me. So if they're going through

spk_0 the training program and they have a question or they've come up against the wall or they want to

spk_0 talk about their training plan, they can ask me anytime by clicking on that Ask Him button. But they

spk_0 also get access to a complete training program. I have a flow chart of training and it takes a

spk_0 dog right through the puppy stuff where we're doing treat training all the way through the yard work

spk_0 and the early marking development. Like we've talked a little bit about tonight, all of the advanced

spk_0 blind work and advanced marking training. You know, when I talk about teaching your dog to fight

spk_0 factors and teaching them all those marking concepts and the balance by doing working on that third,

spk_0 they get access to videos written content, diagrams, checklists. And also there's a huge suite of

spk_0 trainer development information, which is videos conversations like this or we dive, do a deep dive

spk_0 into so many different parts of training. It's all there. And once you sign up as a member,

spk_0 you pay monthly fee. It gives you access to everything that I've just talked about and you can

spk_0 get out at any time. And if you just want to check it out, the first 10 days, if you don't like it

spk_0 in the first 10 days, you're just emailing, I give you your money back. It's easy. No risk.

spk_0 I want to meet the person who didn't like it in 10 days and I want to give him a knuckle sandwich.

spk_0 Sandwich. Yeah, I had to emphasize the same. Yeah. I appreciate it very much.

spk_0 Anyone, it's going to be in the show notes. If you listened on the regular podcast, you know,

spk_0 iTunes and Spotify and all that stuff, make sure you head over to the YouTube channel where you

spk_0 can watch us. So when he was talking about certain little diagrams where we use it with my head

spk_0 and his arm and this and that, you can actually view the podcast on there now. So as we move forward,

spk_0 you can check out the YouTube channel for that stuff as well. So as always, cabin, I appreciate

spk_0 you taking time on your day and being here with us and doing it, man. It's a pleasure.

spk_0 Pleasure. Pleasure. I always enjoy it. It's a great conversation. I have fun. Me too. Yeah,

spk_0 me too. It's always helps me as well. So it's selfish. I'm selfish. Good for you. Thank you.

spk_0 Well, everybody who tuned in, thank you. Week in, week out, you come back listening for more

spk_0 information. So thank you to you guys and we'll see you in the next episode. Cheers.

spk_0 Hey, join our community. If you enjoy the show, if you enjoy our YouTube, if you enjoy Instagram,

spk_0 it's like by and mean Kevin Abir. Join patreon.com forward slash loan duck outfitters. The link is

spk_0 in the description. Click that link. Join the community. We've got tons of great videos,

spk_0 tons of great content and you can ask me more questions. So join it. Enjoy it. We did it for you

spk_0 and you're helping us produce a show. So thank you so much to that community. Get in, get out,

spk_0 let's roll patreon.com forward slash loan duck outfitters.

E 255. Fundamental Marking Drills & When to Handle

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