Church Hurt

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hey guys, it's so good for you to join us. We are here on episode one of the God Stories

spk_0 podcast. I'm joined today by my pastor, my friend and one of my mentors for the David

spk_0 Mitchell for the David is so good to have you today. It's so good for your job. Thank you

spk_0 for the invitation. I'm excited about it. Absolutely. Well, I know people that's watching

spk_0 this and they probably don't know you because I've got a lot of people that's probably

spk_0 watching in other states or even other countries right now. And so I kind of want you

spk_0 to kind of share who you are to everybody this watching because I could do it, but I

spk_0 don't think I'll do enough justice. So you could just tell everybody a little bit about

spk_0 you how long you've been in ministry and your family. Yeah, so I've been in ministry.

spk_0 I was 16 years old in my school. And so I started teaching and preaching God's word

spk_0 of very, very intimidated by that, but excited about the opportunity also. And so I'm

spk_0 married in my hospital sweetheart with the same school, with the same church, same youth

spk_0 program. And you know, we dated for about three and a half to four years. I think somewhere

spk_0 there before we got married. We got married in 1998. And I'm going to get my anniversary

spk_0 wrong. I'm sure about 26 years, 27, somewhere right over there. I'm going to be close.

spk_0 But they've been married. And so we have two, two, one couple of boys. They're men now,

spk_0 21 and 24. And so we're writing a really fun season of life as parents, you know. Our

spk_0 oldest son is engaged. He'll be getting married this upcoming maid. And so we're excited

spk_0 about that. And so yeah, we're just, man, we're just letting the life. We're in a good

spk_0 season as far as just God's bless us. Awesome. Awesome. But brother David has actually the

spk_0 pastor at the church that I T and I get to serve him on every Sunday. And I get to do some

spk_0 incredible things here at strong towering. Strong Chowell Westmoreland is the campus we're

spk_0 actually on. But brother David is actually over the strong tower ministry in Westmoreland.

spk_0 And Lafayette, we've got some campus pastors at each and you're actually going to hear

spk_0 from those people on the podcast here in the future because they're some of the guests

spk_0 that I'll actually invite on because their stories are incredible. And you're going to

spk_0 hear, I believe you'll be blessed by their stories as well. Brother David, I know you've

spk_0 been a minister. How long have you been a ministry? Oh, it's probably 31, 32 years, something

spk_0 like that. So it's, you know, again, I was 16 when I started. So I started preaching

spk_0 right away, started teaching my pastor who I still consider my pastor today. Maybe he

spk_0 got me right in there. He invested in me, mentored me, got me. And so my I started

spk_0 right away Sunday night messages, you know, we see that messages. And so now you've

spk_0 passed through it, you know, with two churches. So yeah, I got busy right away.

spk_0 Awesome. Well, I mean, I think, you know, I think a lot of people, there may be some people

spk_0 here that may feel a calling the ministry and I think that some people that may be young

spk_0 watching this, they just have to understand that it's okay to accept that calling it

spk_0 a young age. I think that's a big blessing. Yeah, it is. Don't be a timid. You know, I

spk_0 was really timid, unworthy. Thank God I had, you know, I talked to my parents, I talked

spk_0 to my youth pastor, I talked to my pastor, I talked to people that I had confidence in

spk_0 helping guide me. Yeah, because I've already been saved, I've already been baptized.

spk_0 I just can't figure out what is God calling me to do. And so again, just being patient

spk_0 in that season, it's like a crock pot sort of a moment. Don't try to jump ahead of

spk_0 God. The God's preparing us. I believe for what he's prepared for us. And so we just

spk_0 have to walk in that, you know, patiently. And it's not always easy, but just trough us

spk_0 in the process. I think even even now 20 some of years later in ministry for me, I still

spk_0 feel a little more than at times. There's a lot of times I I'm so grateful that God's using

spk_0 me, but I even ask why are you using it? You know, I know that may sound a little crazy to think,

spk_0 but being in ministry is a blessing, but it also is something that is challenging at time,

spk_0 because we have to challenge ourselves. You know, because people are listening and watching

spk_0 what we're doing. Well, our topic today is church art. And I know there's going to be people

spk_0 literally get on this podcast because you saw the word church hurt. And either you're going through

spk_0 that in your life, you went through that in your life, or you think there's drama behind the word

spk_0 church, and you're plugging in to see what kind of drama people go through. For me, I actually

spk_0 went through church in my early days in ministry by the day. I know what you mean. You talked about

spk_0 it. There was some challenges for you as well. I kind of open this podcast up and I think it's

spk_0 important for people to understand what I went through because that's kind of why I chose the

spk_0 church art topic for the first episode because for me, I was called in the ministry at a young age

spk_0 just like you. I was 16 years old. Born and raised a Baptist and my mom and dad had me in church

spk_0 every single Sunday. And I went to youth every Wednesday and anytime the doors open, my mom and dad

spk_0 pushed me through those doors. And I just felt a calling on my life to to preach the gospel at

spk_0 a very young age. And when you're in high school, that's a difficult calling because people judge

spk_0 you and it's a different type of level. And I was going through all the challenges of

spk_0 you know, yeah, cool high school challenges. I wasn't exactly the best guy in the world. I know

spk_0 that sounds bad, but I was running the roads and doing crazy stuff at the same time being called by

spk_0 God. And it's like, okay, how do you how do you navigate through that season? But finally,

spk_0 I some things happened in my life and God opened the door for me to accept the calling to preach

spk_0 the Word of God inside of a church as a pastor. Now to kind of set this up and people understand

spk_0 where I was there, I had just met my beautiful wife now, Quinn. And we had started to date and I'd

spk_0 already engaged, we were already engaged. And I had the opportunity to go and preach to the church

spk_0 in a little town called Waverly Tennessee. Some people may have recognized that name because of the

spk_0 floods that went through there a few years ago that were devastating that community. But for me,

spk_0 I stepped into that calling and not really knowing what God was going to do through that calling.

spk_0 They had very few members in the church. I think they had six people when I started. So when I

spk_0 walked through the doors and preached the first time, I didn't even think I was going to be

spk_0 there a pastor didn't even consider it. I literally was filling in just a preach because I had

spk_0 the calling. And when you got the call into preach, if you don't scratch the itch, God will tug your

spk_0 heart and continue. Yes. So so for me, I went to that church a few times, those people inviting me

spk_0 back and asked me to be a pastor. That was the beginning of some incredible times, but also

spk_0 very challenging times. So I actually started a pastor at that church. Six people, God started to

spk_0 move in the church. I started to grow credible numbers started to come and within a year, the

spk_0 seams were bustin out at the church. And that is when the devil decided to go to work. And brother

spk_0 David, I for me, I had no clue what was getting ready to happen. The the world around me looked

spk_0 rosy, but in the background, there were some evil forces kind of going against me. And I had no clue

spk_0 what's happening. And what took place was I believe the part of the most challenging, I would say

spk_0 the most challenging time of my life because it started a, um, a domino effect that I kind of stayed

spk_0 in for quite a while. And I'm going to discuss that here. But um, being part of a thriving ministry,

spk_0 I can say this to you and I and you actually can speak to this because right now, strong tower,

spk_0 on the church that we're sitting there right now is absolutely exploding. How do you manage a

spk_0 church? How do you, and I mean, I'm not managed, but how do you, somebody that's a part of the

spk_0 exploding church, he was a pastor. How do you still keep the people and the relationship with people

spk_0 that made things? Because I think that's where a lot of times churches turn into problems.

spk_0 Yeah, I think, you know, keeping a big trip small is the goal, you know, and there's the same one

spk_0 we started strong tower. Our goal was for people to feel like family. They gave me a despite their

spk_0 past, a way that was church hurt, whether the man they just did feel welcome valued, uh, judged,

spk_0 you know, there, there's a lot of things I think that keeps people from entering our, all of our churches,

spk_0 you know, and so I think what you're hitting on, John, is the main thing. It's, it's making people

spk_0 feel valuable and love, noticed, included, right? We say something here a lot that you can belong

spk_0 long before you believe. And so I think we have to keep that before from everything we do. When

spk_0 you keep that at the focal point, right? And people, man, they're going to come in just like,

spk_0 like you talked about, well, you knew it's 16, 16, we was called a ministry. We wasn't perfect kids,

spk_0 right? But man, we were still going through things, all teenagers go through, but you know,

spk_0 I'm so thankful that my pastor continued to pass through the even though he probably knew as an

spk_0 overman, like, look, I know what he's going through. I've been through there, you know, just like

spk_0 us as guys, we know what guys go through, temptations, the struggles, the trials, you know, and so I think

spk_0 just walking with people up in their ups and their dams and just saying, hey, my God has given us

spk_0 opportunity to love people and lead people to love them in a way to where they're going to discover

spk_0 their gift and walk in that free. So, so in saying that the church that I was pastor and actually

spk_0 grew and it grew extremely large, extremely fast. And sometimes growth can be uncomfortable. And

spk_0 one of the things we dealt with was the original six didn't like now. This, this is where it could

spk_0 get a little uncomfortable for people to watch. But I told you before we started this that I wanted

spk_0 to be extremely transparent. I wanted people to hear the truth because I think it's very important.

spk_0 And I don't think that let me say this. I don't think the original six in the church were bad people.

spk_0 No, no, I'm not agree. And I'm gonna say, Craig Rochelle says it's a lot. He said,

spk_0 when you're he said when it comes to church, either you can have control or you can have growth,

spk_0 which you can have both. That's true. And I think that was the exact thing that that kind of took

spk_0 place is I think there was an uncomfortableness of the growth that we were going through. And instead

spk_0 of allowing God to be the focal point, it became more about what happens next. Now that could

spk_0 challenge could come to me and it could it could be it could be a part of my and a part of theirs.

spk_0 And what I mean by that is as a as a pastor that you're seeing your church explode and you don't

spk_0 have room for anymore people inside of the church. Sometimes you may feel God moving you in a

spk_0 direction and you got to be very careful how you share what direction that he's calling you to go with.

spk_0 And I think that's what happened is I shared that I believe God was telling us to it was time

spk_0 to grow. It was time to build the church bust the walls out do something more. And man, when you're

spk_0 a small community and a small church, that's a huge step. And I don't know if the people I don't

spk_0 know if and how do I say this? I don't know if I prepared the people the right way to accept that

spk_0 that message that God was telling me. Yeah, I think you know, share and vision. Get at people

spk_0 balling the vision is really big. And again, man, we've been through it like you said, John,

spk_0 I think I think as we get older, we learn all right, we gain wisdom, we gain knowledge. And

spk_0 there's things, man, I didn't do right along the way either. In inviting people in to hear the

spk_0 mission and the vision of what God has put in the pastor's heart. So, hey, this is where we are,

spk_0 but this is where we're going. And when we're going, we change a lot of lives eternally. And

spk_0 getting everybody on board that vision. And again, not advise a lack of vision because it gets people

spk_0 uncomfortable. And sometimes we believe this lie that church exists only for me. That's true,

spk_0 man. That's the that's really deep because we are walking a personal relationship with God and

spk_0 with Christ. That's that's what we're when we're called to Jesus and we accept and we have that

spk_0 personal relationship. But man, how important it is that we as individuals don't become individuals,

spk_0 that we litter and that we open ourselves up to the growth, not the walls, bust out all that,

spk_0 but the relationships that you build inside of a church relationship ski. I did learn that secret

spk_0 early on in ministry is that relationships is everything. I know I know who was it Maxwell. He says

spk_0 everything rises and falls on leadership. But I think relationships, you know, is such a key fact

spk_0 that that man that we can overlook that. Hey, I think that could be part of the problem that

spk_0 I kind of dealt with when we were going through this, like I said, the beginning of the struggle.

spk_0 And so what happened was I had a I had a revival preacher come in and thought this would be

spk_0 something that could really help the church with what the vision God was was laying on my heart.

spk_0 I did not tell the revival preacher, which was my former pastor that that was my parents pastor.

spk_0 I did not tell him what God had shared with me about what direction the church needed to go.

spk_0 I just asked him to come and preach a message or messages that would relate to the congregation

spk_0 that God told him to preach, which is I think every pastor should do when a guest preacher comes in.

spk_0 And he started to preach the word of God. And man, I did not realize how that that at that moment

spk_0 when he preached some of the messages he did in the revival that it would start the waters. And

spk_0 and instead of it going the direction that I was hoping it would go in, it went completely opposite

spk_0 direction. And after that that that week, I actually what came into the church in one of the

spk_0 original six actually told me that I told the preacher to preach the messages, the the revival

spk_0 preacher to preach the messages and what he needed to say and how he needed to present himself.

spk_0 And I'm like, no, I didn't. And so it began a three week period that I that I call the worst

spk_0 probably period of my ministry because it started to destroy it. And I don't mean that

spk_0 it started to destroy the ministry. It just started to destroy my witness because I started to

spk_0 shut down one of the people that that was a part of the church created a a missed truth that

spk_0 that I had to deal with, you know, one of the things I can say that I'm challenged with is

spk_0 sometimes my my temper, my anger, it rises up. And when you attack my family, then we're we're on

spk_0 another level. And at the time I was very young in ministry like I said. So I wasn't prepared

spk_0 to go through that season the way that that way that it transpired because there was an accusation

spk_0 being very real and and transparent. There was a happy right accusation that I actually can beat

spk_0 my wife and that I was in a relationship and she was she was going through terrible things. And

spk_0 this did not come from her. This came from one of the six. And there was there was comments that

spk_0 were made back and forth. And I came up with the idea that it was probably best that I stepped

spk_0 down from the church and step away because I could see the division start to to plan

spk_0 itself. And I knew that wasn't of God. And and for me, it would have been easier just to walk

spk_0 away than to try to fight a battle that I felt like was almost impossible to win. So I prayed about

spk_0 it. And I didn't get the release that I thought I was going to get God did not show me that I needed

spk_0 to step down. And so I went forward thinking that, you know, God would do what he always does. He's

spk_0 going to step in on time and he's going to fix the situation. Walked into the church on that next

spk_0 Sunday morning. And little did I know I was walking into a firing spot. And what I mean by that is

spk_0 I came in and the church proceeded to take a vote from the original six, proceeded to take a vote

spk_0 to dismiss me as pastor of the church. And I didn't know it was coming. But when it started to

spk_0 happen, I really had no concern because I knew God still had my back. And they voted. They had six

spk_0 people that voted for me to leave that they didn't want me to be their pastor anymore. The rest of

spk_0 people inside the congregation over when we voted to keep me as their pastor. And when they did

spk_0 the vote and they read the name that the votes out loud, it was got a funny. It felt like he was on

spk_0 a Sunday millionaire football game and just scored a touchdown because all the people that voted for me

spk_0 to say, cheer and I, yeah, little did they know that the original six was in the church the night

spk_0 before and changed the bylaws to make it to make it to where all I needed was six votes to get rid

spk_0 of a pastor inside of their church. And they read that out loud. And at that point,

spk_0 when is in front of my eyes, the church split and the six remained and the rest of people left.

spk_0 I tell that, I tell that because that was hurtful. I mean, I never wanted to go through a church

spk_0 split, never wanted to go through that kind of pain. If you've went through a church split or

spk_0 you went through that kind of pain, it don't matter who's faulted it. It's it devastates you.

spk_0 And I think that it devastates you because if you love God, you know that that's not of you.

spk_0 And he's not going to orchestrate that kind of challenge for a body of believers to go through.

spk_0 And I started to hurt. I started to go through pay and I stepped away from church. And when I

spk_0 stepped away from it, I blamed God. It's tough to talk about that because it wasn't his fault

spk_0 looking back at it. Once again, I don't know really whose fault it was if it was anybody's. I

spk_0 looked back at it and think it was a blessing, but at the time I didn't think it was a blessing.

spk_0 So how do you handle that type of pain? I mean, I know there may be a preacher watching right now that's

spk_0 went through this, but this is a different type of church. Then a lot of people are going to

spk_0 experience, but as a pastor, what would be your what would be your advice if you've went through

spk_0 that type of pain, been dismissed from a church or been pushed out of a church? How would you handle

spk_0 something like that? What would be your advice? What scripture? Maybe you might have scripture that

spk_0 you could kind of bring up, but what would you how would you encourage somebody to go through that

spk_0 type of hurt? It has a very good question. And I think I think every scenario is different. I think

spk_0 every pastor's hurt is different. Moved out, but I think there are some similarities also.

spk_0 Now, I think those who walk through that need to find an opportunity for healing restoration.

spk_0 You know, whether that's going to counseling, confiding in some mentors to pray,

spk_0 encouraging other pastor freens, um, and association, however that church is set up,

spk_0 or that pastor has been used to having friendships set up around him or the you know, for me,

spk_0 when we went through that, unfortunately, we went through a church 20 years ago, it's been 20 years

spk_0 now. It was very painful and I'm sure you felt Jonathan betrayed. You know, uh,

spk_0 you know, there are just so many raw emotions going on right? You know, for pastors, we pour

spk_0 ourselves out, right? We want to be like Christ. We want to serve. We know Christ said himself,

spk_0 where the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, he gave us a life as a ransom for many.

spk_0 So we want to have that mentality that we exist. You know, we feel like God has called us to love

spk_0 people the way that Jesus wants us to love and the way he will love them, right? And so,

spk_0 many sleepless nights, you want to bet his pastor right with with with things that people are

spk_0 walking through brokenness, whether it's marriages, whether it's children, whether it's sickness,

spk_0 whether people's had the surgeries, and you've been walking through that for multiple years,

spk_0 you know, as you pastor there, not only that, but you're planning events, planning ceremonies.

spk_0 So I mean, all that you probably printed bulletin, it's too big. You know, there, there's,

spk_0 yeah, there's a long time around there. There's a long to do list that,

spk_0 not just only take work on Sunday, you know, that's what the, the job is. Yeah, that's a,

spk_0 but I think that I think that through that, I would say this, I'm a fine, a place for healing.

spk_0 There's a lot of great organizations out there that pastors can go through for treats that are

spk_0 paid for by other nonprofits. And I just started hearing about this few years ago myself that you

spk_0 can go out of West, but there's the folks I know that can go out there, they'll pay for you to go

spk_0 trout fishing, but not just trout fishing. You're out there, you know, again, you're in the wilderness,

spk_0 you're in God's creation, but you're getting poured into in a love zone. There's organizations out there

spk_0 that may, may be fishing, may be a person's thing, you know, maybe she's just getting outdoors,

spk_0 maybe I'm sure they got all kinds of things that people who value a love pastors are pastoring in.

spk_0 And I think that's what we need sometimes when we go through church church. And not, you know,

spk_0 and again, I know you're specifically talking for pastors now, we're going to come too later for

spk_0 people who in the South of the church. I think getting healed, getting ministered to it, because we're

spk_0 used to pouring out, but we're not used to receiving his pastors. And it's hard for us. You really

spk_0 use it. So that that leaves a lot of us. Okay. Well, and then we're going to put the some of those

spk_0 things that brother David's talking about inside of our page. We're going to make sure you have links

spk_0 if you are a pastor, if you're going through that, that you can actually plug in and find those things.

spk_0 So hopefully we'll have those up on the page the next couple of days as we release this podcast.

spk_0 So what took place there is I kind of went into a season of I call questioning and not knowing.

spk_0 And then I felt that I needed to get back in church, not as a pastor, but just plug back in and I

spk_0 went to another church and started to fall in love with the church and what, but what everything

spk_0 was happening inside of the church. I started to like the pastor. Unfortunately, some of the challenges

spk_0 kept going there, but this time I'm out with me. But with that church that I went to the pastor made

spk_0 a few bad decisions and his decisions, wandered up creating turmoil to where he was dismissed. And the

spk_0 way that he was dismissed was once again, what I call a public fire in the squad stood him in front of

spk_0 the church and read all of his sins in front of everybody and basically took everybody off guard

spk_0 because nobody knew it was going to happen. So I re I relived some of the things that I went through

spk_0 just the way that it was handled. Another pain point, her chart. This is why church really hit me

spk_0 and affected me because every time I felt like I was plugging into something that I was supposed to

spk_0 plug into the place that I found refuge. It didn't give me the refuge that I needed a lot of times.

spk_0 And while this is something I know people deal with is they feel like church is a refuge and sometimes

spk_0 it doesn't feel that way. And so at that time I was angry at that church for doing that to my pastor,

spk_0 even though he made mistakes, we all do. And I'm not saying it wasn't justified that he was dismissed.

spk_0 What I'm saying is the way they handled it. And I think it's like the where we live in today,

spk_0 the way people handle things is probably the biggest challenge. It's not that we may disagree

spk_0 with something or have to take an action. It's the way that we just the way we handle the action we take.

spk_0 And so we left that church actually ended up moving, moved to Gallatin, Tennessee, and started to

spk_0 go to a long hollow Baptist church. And long hollows very, very well known in the Nashville and

spk_0 Hendersonville area. And man, when we started to go to church there, I felt something in my spirit

spk_0 that I felt a really long time. And God started to start. And I felt like finally I was back to a

spk_0 place that I could get minister to. I could plug in and feel like I was a part of something. We were

spk_0 there six months. And little did I know that my pastor, Brother David Landry, he actually had cancer.

spk_0 And brother David was there one Sunday and a couple Sundays he was it. And I got on

spk_0 Facebook one day and when I got on Facebook, the announcement came that he had passed away. And I had

spk_0 no clue that he was as sick as he was. And brother David was an incredible pastor, credible man of God.

spk_0 And for me, it was a different type of church. The church didn't hurt me. It was the pain of losing

spk_0 somebody that was my spiritual mentor that I grew relationship with that I had started love. And

spk_0 he was part of that thing that made me want to step back to go to church and get excited about

spk_0 church and growing together. And so that pain didn't push me out of church, but it made me question

spk_0 more things. And kind of stayed on that path for a few, few more years and didn't know what was

spk_0 going to happen. I've still went to church to plug in to different places as me and Quien navigated

spk_0 around the Nashville area. And then we ended up in Lafayette. And that's kind of where I'm coming

spk_0 to now. And we're going to talk about people church hurt in just a minute, but I want to touch this

spk_0 as a person called the preach the gospel and someone that that loves God and knows that there's

spk_0 a calling on their life when you finally find the right place you're going to know it. And it's not

spk_0 about serving in a capacity of a pastor or or anything like that. As we were searching for a church,

spk_0 when we moved to Lafayette, we visited a lot of churches. And we wanted to find out,

spk_0 always been the guy that have you ever said, I want to find a church that's good for my kids.

spk_0 I'd always look for that for the last four years. That's what I was looking for is a place that

spk_0 was good for my kids because I want my kids to be plugged in. I really love it. Yes. I think it's a

spk_0 lot of people say that. But I think one of the things we miss is we miss that we need to plug in too.

spk_0 And we got to be minister to and a lot of the churches that I chose previous four years before

spk_0 I ended up where I am now. Those places minister to my kids, but they did not minister to me

spk_0 the where I was at, what I needed. And one Sunday morning we were drawn to, I wouldn't say a small

spk_0 country church, but I would say a church that a small town called Strong Tower and Strong Tower

spk_0 Westmoreland to be specific. We walked through the door, somebody hugged my net, they told me they

spk_0 loved me. They had no legion. And he just told me, love me and glad to see me. And from that point on,

spk_0 he knew who I was without me telling him who I was every Sunday. So I saw connection there. Now

spk_0 walked in the doors of the church and it wasn't just him. There was other people that genuinely

spk_0 seemed excited to get to know me. They weren't excited because I was a preacher. They weren't excited

spk_0 because I had talents that I could bring to the church. They weren't excited because I had a family

spk_0 that kids and talented kids. They were excited because I walked through the doors and was given

spk_0 this church a chance. And they believed God would do the rest. Wow. This is something so

spk_0 important for people to understand. It's not our job as people in the congregation to prove it

spk_0 to people that walk in. It's our job to welcome people who they've got through it. And that's

spk_0 what happened in Strong Tower Westmoreland. And that's where my church heard officially start

spk_0 because I couldn't be angry because I finally saw what the embodiment of what a

spk_0 Bible believing God loving people loving church looks like in Strong Tower Westmoreland. And

spk_0 obviously you're the pastor here. And I know you feel that. But for me, I understood at that point

spk_0 that it was time for me to step out of my comfort zone a lot of time. A lot of conversations with

spk_0 you. I'd step away from ministry. I would only preach in certain times at certain locations.

spk_0 I didn't really want to open myself up to doing being a part of any type of pieces inside the church.

spk_0 Yeah. Because again, that's what church is to us. I think this is where we're going to relate to people.

spk_0 Yeah. Because at that point, I stepped out of being a pastor and I stepped into being a person

spk_0 in the congregation, a regular congregate inside of the church, which is where everybody else is.

spk_0 And I think what happens inside of the church walls, I think it's important to how a person

spk_0 lives outside of the church walls. And I think that's where we're at right now talking about

spk_0 that we're going to jump into going into church art for an individual. I just want to make sure that

spk_0 somebody that's a pastor or in the ministry that you feel hurt and you've lost your fire, God didn't

spk_0 remove the fire. And I need you to understand that as you listen to this because I do believe there's

spk_0 people that's listening right now that maybe your church hurts you or maybe it's an old church

spk_0 and you stepped out of ministry because you felt that hurt. I just want you to know God still loves you.

spk_0 He didn't give you that talent to take away from you. You've got a gift given to you by God. If

spk_0 you're truly as a calling, then I want you to know that there are there's doors that are waiting

spk_0 for you to step through and God's got them there waiting for you. You just got to be open to

spk_0 when it happens. I think today we live in. We could be more creative for those doors than ever before.

spk_0 I think there's more opportunities for ministers to share the gospels. Matter of fact, we see that

spk_0 there's I'm sure there's a trend across the country where there's a lot of folks

spk_0 anchoring the call. You know, those who've been called in an instrument, you know, whether it's a pastor

spk_0 or a deacon, for my leadership. I think we're seeing some of those numbers go down, which is not

spk_0 a good thing. So we need more men, right, and women who step up into these roles of opportunities.

spk_0 I would say this. I would say that for me, I mean, I was 27 when I went through my biggest church

spk_0 church. And it wasn't just like a moment, like it was a span of five years. And in my wife again,

spk_0 we grew up in the same church. We served in the same church. We were saved in that church. We were

spk_0 baptized in that church. Now it's my calling in that church or dainty in that church. My family

spk_0 is buried at that church. You know, and so we have a lot of roots there. A lot of our foundation

spk_0 is there. It was created there. And so when we went through, it was a five-year period where

spk_0 Jonathan, what you described earlier, where a vision was cast to a group of leaders, right?

spk_0 And I, you know, Rochelle said either you can have control or you can have growth, we can have both.

spk_0 And I think what God speaks of the visionary, you know, when he spoke to Moses, Moses did go get a

spk_0 one on the front thing. Advice from a group of leaders saying, is this what God, is this the

spk_0 direction God's call to us to go? You know what I mean? God game Moses, a mission of vision.

spk_0 Here's what I'm calling you to do, right? And then God surrounds us with amazing people who have

spk_0 talents and gifts that we don't have, right? And I know this may be a whole another direction. And so

spk_0 that's sort of what happened was, was a vision was given and it wasn't received because there were

spk_0 some unknowns and variables there that people they didn't fully understand or were comfortable with

spk_0 or wasn't comfortable in the direction that maybe my pastors as a 20th at that time might have been

spk_0 like 23, 24 something like that was taken on church. And so that was a span of five years where

spk_0 what you said earlier is what kept me in the game. There were people on both sides, I'm going to

spk_0 split it. And I was even at the point I was even saying, no, we're not splitting. I mean, I was in

spk_0 six to nine. And I'm not we're not, you know, because when you grow up in a church, those sunny

spk_0 school teachers are the ones who poured into you, right? And now this thing is going this way.

spk_0 You know, people have different thoughts, different opinions on how the church should be laid,

spk_0 now it should grow, what should be allowed, what should be allowed, you know, and we were going

spk_0 through all those things and my heart was always and I'm being really authentic and serious and

spk_0 transparent. My heart was always okay. I know now there's two sides, but my heart is for the people

spk_0 in the middle. What what? And I remember asking a group of elders for our leaders or ordained

spk_0 officials. And again, I'm green behind the years, you know, if that moment, I'm not a young leader,

spk_0 right? At that moment, I would have been around 26, 27. And I remember asking the young in the back

spk_0 of a sanctuary, okay, our church is divided. But are we comfortable? Are we okay with when we,

spk_0 when this thing goes, however, it's going to go, are we all comfortable with the place where there's

spk_0 going to be people who's not going to go this side and they're not going to go this side, but they're

spk_0 going to say, I've done with church. And that's what broke me. And I said that from a point of, are we

spk_0 okay one day when those folks who may not get churchy chance again, because of our actions

spk_0 that's been played out the last few years? And that's what broke me the most. And so,

spk_0 you know, God calls us to ministry calls us to minister to everyone, all people, right?

spk_0 Christ takes the death for everyone. Hebrews 2.0 says that. And so we're broken for all people

spk_0 and call to lead all people. And sometimes yes, it is a slow process to, if we're trying to,

spk_0 to lead a church that has been established for 50, 60, 70 years, whatever it may be,

spk_0 yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult sometimes, depending on the bylaws of structure, right?

spk_0 Of how that church is organized. But man, if we're living out the great commission, we have to stop

spk_0 and say, what life change are we seeing happen? Are we seeing a soul saying, are we seeing people

spk_0 baptized? Are we growing in our adult ministry or are we growing our children's ministry? Are we

spk_0 growing our youth ministry? And if that's you, those things is no, then what are we doing?

spk_0 Something has a change, right? And sometimes people are comfortable with that. And so, I think,

spk_0 you know, for the pastor, preach, or leader, a man, and this can happen to kids ministry,

spk_0 it can happen to him, to student ministry. I would say this, don't, don't you give up? Like Jonathan

spk_0 said, God could have fired you a passion. And yes, sometimes it feels like it gets put out, right?

spk_0 And that's why we have to get away. We have to be restored. We have to be renewed. We have to

spk_0 find a quiet place, a quiet time. Five people is reporant. You love you. And value you. And

spk_0 just be patient with the process, you know, that's good stuff. And that's speaking to the person that

spk_0 may be an leadership role in a church that has what through church work. Let's just transition

spk_0 right into what you just kind of touched on. I think this is where, because where it's going to

spk_0 minister to a whole lot of people, if someone goes through that where they were a part of the church split

spk_0 and they're not the preacher, they might not even be a leader inside of the church and do

spk_0 anything. They may not be a Sunday school teacher. They may just be a person that shows up and

spk_0 wants to get ministered to, but they were a part of a church. And they don't know what direction

spk_0 that they, that they should have went. And maybe the direction they went was what you're talking

spk_0 about. They completely stepped out of church. They were hurt because they love the pastor, but

spk_0 they also love the person that was on the other side. It's heart wrenching. It's confusing for the

spk_0 attender, for the person who's not just a tender, but they're, they're volunteer, they're baldian,

spk_0 baldian, baldian. So how would you recommend or what would be your advice to that person that

spk_0 had that type of church? The church church that they saw a crack in what we believe. And then

spk_0 this is a misconception, but it's true. You're going to understand exactly what I mean.

spk_0 People don't think pastors should make mistakes. And they see a crack in the church, in the church

spk_0 established, it established been a church. Not the church because we know the buildings not

spk_0 the church, but the established people that led the church. They see that that crack. And they

spk_0 would say, I don't want to be a part of that. Those people are a bunch of hypocrites. We hear that

spk_0 all the time. We hear that a lot. I will say two things. And I can say this from being in church.

spk_0 I can say this from working in the public call center. So like, never, and I like where you

spk_0 was going, never put a pastor leader on a pedestal. That's right. They never, we never asked to be put

spk_0 up there. I have to say that earlier, we are, it's not if we are going to let you down. We don't

spk_0 need to. That's right. Sometimes people put such high, so we're not looking for high expectations.

spk_0 All people that we want to hold other people to, but yet we don't even hold ourselves for those

spk_0 expectations. Yeah. That's dangerous. That's not good. We're setting people up for failure. And

spk_0 that's not weird, right? And so I think that that's number one. Number two is this. I would always say

spk_0 get to know the person. I remember I was working in a factory in Portland. This is, again,

spk_0 this is probably 25 years ago. And you know, I had some friends there. I'm pretty pretty much a

spk_0 people person like I love to talk. I love to meet people. I love to get their stories. I love to

spk_0 find out, you know, who they are, how they're wired, what the five common ground, but there was a

spk_0 gather at the business who everybody said, hey, this guy is for himself. Like don't, don't trust him.

spk_0 Don't don't do life with him. He's just, he's out for himself. Well, my job that I had

spk_0 required me to go and talk directly to this person. And so I started investing in the

spk_0 relationship. And I found out he wasn't nothing like the people that told me in the company

spk_0 that he was. He wasn't anything like that. Matter of fact, they've become good friends.

spk_0 Now, here's the win. The win is in my, and it's nothing to do with me. Okay. That's not the point

spk_0 story. The point of story is how we can do this. All of us who's listening this podcast today. So

spk_0 other people saw me in this guy's relationship. They built a relationship with him. So don't always

spk_0 take your say it for how persons wire who they are. You know, I'll say this in church. And I

spk_0 don't want you back to where you're going. There's people who's even in our church. There's things

spk_0 and it happens in every church. They're not going to like everything about our churches. They're

spk_0 just from the carpet to the walls, paint to the song that's song to the key of saying, yeah,

spk_0 and to what somebody was wearing while they. Some of the song preach the sermon. You pick it,

spk_0 you choose it. I'm sure it's been said. I've always said this when somebody comes to me as a leader.

spk_0 They come to go, there's something I don't like and I don't talk to you about about this person.

spk_0 I'm like, do you know that person? And most of the time, not times out of time, they're going to go,

spk_0 no, I don't know. I said, we'll get to know their heart. If you get to know their heart,

spk_0 then you'll over the moon. I'm telling you every time you'll over the look that thing that is

spk_0 bothering you. Does that make sense? It goes back to relationships. And when you open up with

spk_0 relationships is key to everything, right? There's things in our families that we've got in laws.

spk_0 And that laws and I know that there's things, there's quirks in all our families that we don't

spk_0 like necessarily. You know, maybe, you know, we love the person, right? So we make a allowance.

spk_0 We don't focus on that thing that maybe Travis will get crazy because we love the person.

spk_0 I don't think the twarters just have to get to. I think I think that's important. If you're riding

spk_0 in down, I don't know if you take notes on podcasts, but that might be a great note to jot down,

spk_0 just look at the person's heart. Find out who they really are. So that's extremely important.

spk_0 When you go through a church split as a person in the congregation, it sometimes hard to understand why.

spk_0 Sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes there needs to be a purge. And I know that may sound a little harsh,

spk_0 a little hard to deal with, but a lot of times when a church splits, there is some kind of

spk_0 divisiveness that has to be worked out. And I don't mean that it's good. I just mean that sometimes

spk_0 sometimes you have to, it's necessary to go through certain things to grow. And it is.

spk_0 Think about it. What is it that there's some kind of plan or something that you have to cut the

spk_0 branches or something to for it to become what it is or what it needs to become and sometimes

spk_0 cutting the branches are necessary. Yeah, for me, it's so it's part of the growth process.

spk_0 And of course, you know, some things die so that something else can be poor.

spk_0 Right. And you're talking about this process. I thought about this the day, Jonathan,

spk_0 in Romans chapter 5, it says we can rejoice too when we run into problems and trials,

spk_0 where we know that they help us develop endurance. That's not fun. It says we can rejoice too when

spk_0 we run into problems. It sounds so counter-intuitive, like that doesn't make sense. But what's we come

spk_0 through to fire? What's we come through the trial? What's we come to? There's only certain things

spk_0 I believe it can be developed. I think this is what this text says. This is endurance develops

spk_0 strength of character and character strengthens our hope and hope of salvation. And this hope will

spk_0 not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us because He's given us the Holy Spirit

spk_0 to fill our hearts with His love. It goes back to that love. And so I think it helps us

spk_0 refine, refocus, realign. Okay, what does God call me to? And I'm talking about the attendor too.

spk_0 Again, I don't know if we want to get to that. Okay, what is God saved us and changed us?

spk_0 What do you say to us to? Right, we know what He saved us from, but what do you say to us to?

spk_0 You know, and I think, yes, people's gonna let us down. They're gonna hurt us. Jonathan said,

spk_0 well, I go, you know, people say, well, I would come to your church and I'm talking about the big

spk_0 seed church because we all hear this. We've heard all of that. I would come to your church,

spk_0 but there's a bunch of people who say, of course, always fonds is what one, one more,

spk_0 the great thing on heart, right? It's right. It's because we're all, we're all jacked up. We're

spk_0 all messed up. We all have past, right? We have things that we wrestle with, that we struggle with,

spk_0 you know, the key is, hey, let's, let's come together, right? Let's worship Jesus. Let's support,

spk_0 encourage, have accountability through small groups, through serving. I think these are great avenues

spk_0 to find healing through. You know, when folks attend this church, it's strong tired specifically,

spk_0 and I get to chance to meet them, and they walk me through like some folks, I hate, man, I served

spk_0 this capacity, this church. Man, I was burned out. Man, I'm tired. I'm exhausted spiritually,

spk_0 physically, right? Or I was hurt by this church. My ultimate response is, I don't want you to sign

spk_0 up to serve. I don't want you to go to a small group. I want you to just come on Sundays because

spk_0 if you were in any type of leadership role or volunteering role, sometimes it's hard to visit

spk_0 a church without picking it apart. Go, that's sort of how we're internally wired. When we visit

spk_0 a church, it doesn't matter who we are, but I want those individuals to come and just, just be,

spk_0 experience, or shoot, right? I expect your relationship with no expectations, right? We're not going

spk_0 to try to love you, W. You to get you to serve. Like you said earlier, right? We don't care what talent

spk_0 you have. We care about you. And so I get the people to permission this, like, look, just,

spk_0 don't come and try to get plugged in. I don't know. We're going to talk about the connection card,

spk_0 but don't worry about that right now. You just calm, get locked down, let the spirit

spk_0 minister to you speak to you and we'll take those steps if they go.

spk_0 So, what are you talking about the splits and all that? Now, maybe that's part, that actually

spk_0 is part of the world we live in, inside of the church community. But I think more,

spk_0 it's going to relate to the average person is, maybe they showed up at church. And when they showed

spk_0 up, they were somebody said something, somebody said something and maybe they took it the wrong

spk_0 way or it was said maliciously and they took it the way it was met. And instead of

spk_0 trying to figure out how overcome it, it was easier to leave and not come back.

spk_0 Yeah, unfortunately, what you're, the reason I laugh, I'm not laughing because I'm trying to be

spk_0 being spirit and I'm laughing because it's such a reality that I've heard more times I want to,

spk_0 you know, we just have to try and again, when you're hurt or more vulnerable right times,

spk_0 I think I was at a conference one time because it hurt people, hurt people. Sometimes people are churches

spk_0 that were wounded and they're not the good spot and they may have a bad morning, get the kids

spk_0 up, get him in the car and they just may be a little more sure, fused or not as polite or as patient

spk_0 as we will like, you know what I mean, for them to be and, yeah, unfortunately, that is a reality.

spk_0 And, you know, we try to train coach lead our volunteers, you know, on how to receive our gifts,

spk_0 and not just our gifts, but people call strong towel churches at home for the last 20, 20 years,

spk_0 because a lot of people from a place of genuineness, right, it's not fake, it's not, it's real,

spk_0 you know, and that's the number one thing out here a lot of folks visit our churches that

spk_0 in your church is so loving and welcoming and inviting more than anything else. And I think it

spk_0 has to be our first line of of a fence is love when people get out of their car or they're coming

spk_0 in the parking lot, just being real and genuine people, and that's what you feel the fine, and I think,

spk_0 you know, like, just it helps soften the heart for those who's been wounded or hurt or maybe

spk_0 intimidated by a crowd or just come to church for the first time that long time. But yeah,

spk_0 unfortunately, John, and that is a hard, but then we have to lead people through talking about our

spk_0 people volunteer or even not even volunteer, just people who were just attenders sometimes can say

spk_0 things that are taken out of context or like you said, they're taking the way they were admitted to be

spk_0 and that's what happens. We try to deal with that, we try to talk to that, we want to get to that

spk_0 person and just walk them through. Not the person that was told to, you know, that the person who said it,

spk_0 you know, so how do you look? Let's, let's revive it, revive it. So what would you say about somebody

spk_0 that maybe comes to a church and they're in the congregation and the preacher's preaching and

spk_0 all of a sudden the preacher said some things that step on their toes that now they take it the

spk_0 role and that's what pushed us away from church. That's why they get angry, that's why they get

spk_0 upset is because maybe they don't agree with what the preacher said. So let's hit that because I

spk_0 know that's probably something people are like, I've been to a church and a preacher said this and I

spk_0 can't stand it. They said this and so I ain't going back because I heard one preacher say that what

spk_0 would be your, what would be your view on that? Yeah, I think that there's probably going to be a

spk_0 real reality from all the folks. I don't know if we agree with everything that everybody says,

spk_0 as opinions right, we all like pizza, but we like different styles of pizza. And so I think that,

spk_0 you know, you have to find what I would encourage is this is that I would encourage you to have

spk_0 a conversation with that pastor. You know, don't just leave, you know, but say, hey, I like to talk to

spk_0 you, right? I need some more. Can you give me some input? Can you give me some thoughts? That's one

spk_0 nugget I would give or talk to someone in the leadership underneath that pastor because they're

spk_0 probably going to think the way that pastor thinks. You know, a lot of things because they're being

spk_0 all visited church. And they'll say, I like your church, but in my old church, we did this, this,

spk_0 this, and this and the preacher, the preacher could do this, this, this, and my question is,

spk_0 I'm honestly going to the church. If you're going to come here and try to make this church,

spk_0 talk to church, you left. And so now we don't welcome that too much. Yeah, no, I get it. You know,

spk_0 yeah. And so I would have, you know, as far as stepping on toes, we're going to look at gospel,

spk_0 do the gospel. I'm sorry. Yeah. And we're, we will never apologize for that. We're going to look

spk_0 at gospel, preach to gospel at the gospel, do its work. You know, but it's somebody, you know,

spk_0 if I have this people email me, they'll say, Hey, what, what me theater theology, you know,

spk_0 and we're open to that. We're okay with that, you know, and we'll walk in because usually,

spk_0 no strong tower is not the church for everybody. But what I love about our community, the

spk_0 weather to affect or a small and the communities that surround us. If I know this church isn't a

spk_0 fit for you, we start talking about theology, we talk about doctrine, we talk about those things.

spk_0 I have a lot of pastor friends. There's a lot of good churches that I don't say, hey, maybe

spk_0 this church will fit you based on what you told me. And so we'd love to do that too.

spk_0 Because we want to see the church go right. It ain't just about strong tower. And so we've done

spk_0 that as well. I think one of the misconceptions when you go inside of a church is that you never

spk_0 want to have a confrontation. It may sound a little, a little broad when I say that, but from the day

spk_0 of it, I think that people are afraid of confrontation, meaning that like, okay, something's happened

spk_0 and they don't agree with something that you say or pastor says or something. And they're just

spk_0 afraid to come because they're saying anything to anybody. Yeah. So it's easier to walk out and not say

spk_0 a word because we're afraid that it may be there may be a confrontation. The confrontation,

spk_0 I'm talking about Snotta, violent confrontation. I'm talking about a discussion, right?

spk_0 It's still a confrontation. It should be conversation. But calm, but, but I think that most people

spk_0 take it as confrontation instead of a conversation. Yeah, it's intimidating for me. If I have one

spk_0 thing that drives me crazy, if I've got someone who's attended archival three years,

spk_0 who came years. I'm saying they're they're generous with their time and their finances.

spk_0 They're they're they're giving to the mission of vision and values of this church and what God's

spk_0 doing in our communities. And they just up and leave without having a conversation with me.

spk_0 I love the conversation with that person. Like you're saying. And sometimes they're, I don't know,

spk_0 if they're intimidated, if they don't want to have their conversation, they may just think is,

spk_0 I don't know what they need. They may put their heart in the mind, but I would love to sit down

spk_0 and have a conversation. Right? And we still may come to a point where the best choice for them

spk_0 is to walk away to find another church or, you know what I mean? To step away. Maybe it's

spk_0 their seat to leave this church. And if it comes to, I'm okay. I've had people do that route

spk_0 that we're still friends today. And we still love each other. We pray for each other. We encourage

spk_0 like you subago. I got called away from churches when I was a youth pastor. And it hurt. And you've

spk_0 been through that as well. Like I was called away to step into a road and another church. And I

spk_0 and it hurt the people out there. Me and my wife, we left that church because we built relationships.

spk_0 And we see people saved and baptized and life change. And that's that's the sticky part of

spk_0 ministry. I say when people to go serve another group of people to go to call us to. So I know that

spk_0 that a lot of people's not going to spend always their life at this particular church. And I know

spk_0 that leaving is a part of ministry. And we have to be okay with that, right? But at least have a

spk_0 conversation. Don't don't leave and let the relationship be damaged, right? I've run into people

spk_0 in our community that I catch the grocery store. And I'm like, let's let's catch you up, right?

spk_0 I went to a conference one time and I heard this period of will say that most oftentimes people who

spk_0 maybe they they wondered back and old habits, lifestyle, sin pattern, they walk away from church.

spk_0 And what we see is that their life never improves when you run into them in a community or the community.

spk_0 And you ask me how things are going. It's off the time things are not going good.

spk_0 They're not going well. And the whole point of that is that how we start doing community together.

spk_0 And so sometimes we do allow people's comments, which is not always good to affect us,

spk_0 but sometimes we allow even our choices to take us away from church community, which is not good

spk_0 either. And so yeah, I think that we're always better together as as a body believers and it's

spk_0 Christians. And so yeah, I know there's a lot of people make watches podcasts that maybe there's

spk_0 some church hurt there, but also maybe there is some some things and choices that we made is

spk_0 taking us out of community that we need to make a choice to get back into community.

spk_0 As we as we kind of come to an end in this podcast, I hope people hope to help some folks that

spk_0 that may have some struggles that that they've had inside of the church and and pushed them away

spk_0 from the church. And maybe not maybe I encourage you to go find you somewhere that you can plug

spk_0 into and and let God do the work. Don't don't listen. I always say I trust people, but I trust God more.

spk_0 And and I'm not looking for, you know, a plug in play. I'm looking for somewhere that I can get

spk_0 I can emotionally and spiritually be communicated to and communicate to others.

spk_0 And then after I get that, then I feel like that's where I can start serving and and dovying in a

spk_0 little bit more. But let's get down to the very last thing I want to talk about.

spk_0 Some of you don't know what church already is because you've never been to church.

spk_0 And, um, you know, I'm grateful you've not went through that challenge. But maybe some of you

spk_0 that's watching this, you don't even know, um, about the grace and the forgiveness that, um,

spk_0 that we talk about. A lot of time, the thing that, um, that I recognize is people, people don't

spk_0 understand forgiveness as a part of the process. And church, church is the same way. You've got to be

spk_0 able to forgive people because if you hold onto that, it's going to continue to bring you back,

spk_0 carry you back to what that place and I know that helped me a lot. But as we, as we end this,

spk_0 I never want to end a podcast without talking about the importance of salvation and how that,

spk_0 that takes all the complicated just, oh, wait, it takes everything that's a challenge away.

spk_0 So I'm just going to let you share just with your heart somebody that may be watching that,

spk_0 you know, they just jumped on because they know who I am or or they got referred by somebody else.

spk_0 And they don't even know who Jesus is. If you don't mind just kind of sharing that, I mean,

spk_0 I would gratefully appreciate it. Yeah, I will love to, you know, with church hurt and any type of hurt,

spk_0 you, you sit so well, Jonathan, either we can allow that to fester up in us and we become either a

spk_0 better version, a bitter version of ourself or, or we turn to Christ and allow him to make a better

spk_0 version of ourself. Either we get better or better, you know, for those of you who don't know Christ,

spk_0 I would say this, I, I love the opportunity to say that unfortunately we will let you down as a man.

spk_0 That's not our heart or our intention too. That's not what we sit out to do. But I can say this

spk_0 constantly that Christ will never leave you, they'll never say to you, they'll never let you down.

spk_0 He's always there for us. And a ton of need, a ton of brokenness and a ton of distress.

spk_0 As well as our times of celebration. And so I would say this, if you don't know Christ as your

spk_0 Savior, he's one conversation away. It's where you posture your heart in a way where you acknowledge

spk_0 how you man I'm broken person. I'm a sinful person. Man I've rebuilt against God. I've done my own

spk_0 thing right. Chase after whatever you feel in the blank. But it's luckily feeling empty. Rather

spk_0 than fulfilled, I feel empty. I have shame. I've got guilt. I've got regret. I think that's all

spk_0 of our stories because that's what sin does. And so what I would say is this is, is calling the name

spk_0 of Jesus and you can do that today, right? No matter where you are. Just call on his name. And

spk_0 Romans chapter 10 says if we confess Christ is Lord, right? We confess for their mouth that Christ is

spk_0 Lord and believe in our heart that God is raised in from the dead. We will be saved. Doesn't say

spk_0 might be says will be. And then if you if you still have a little trouble with that because you're

spk_0 like, man, you don't know my past. You don't know my present. You don't know my sin battery. You don't

spk_0 know my struggle. If you go down to Romans 10, 13, it says for everyone who calls on the name of Jesus,

spk_0 we'll be saved. And then you can take that to the bank. I love that. So it's where we have this

spk_0 drawing power of God's love. It says in Romans, God's loving kindness leads us to repentance. It

spk_0 life my way. I've tried life the world way, but it's not fulfillment. My greatest fulfillment is

spk_0 when I give my life to Jesus and I've tried to follow him through his teachings. Matthew,

spk_0 Martin, Luke and John, dive there in the Bible. Watch how Jesus interact with people. See how he

spk_0 love people. Jesus said, the world will be able to tell you're my followers, how you love one

spk_0 another. And that's such a, if you want to know, man, are you walking with Jesus as a Christian?

spk_0 Well, how do you love people? How do you serve people? Right? And so I would say this, just have a

spk_0 moment where you bow your heart, bow your knees, whatever posture you want to get into and just

spk_0 talk to Jesus, just telling your heart, here's my junk, here's my sand. I'm sorry, right? I give you

spk_0 my sand. I can push you as a Lord. I need to save you. I need you come in to change me. And we

spk_0 don't we can do that for anybody. You know, I've always thought, I always thought, you know, we

spk_0 we run to Jesus, but really he's running into us. Yeah, he seeks us out. And maybe you're somebody

spk_0 that don't know him. If you don't listen to what Brother David said, because I think the most

spk_0 impactful thing that can happen through this podcast would be people come to know Jesus. I want

spk_0 people to get over church, I want people to get over certain situations that they may have going

spk_0 on in their life. And this podcast is going to be all about stories that's going to show people

spk_0 overcoming tremendous challenges. And the way they did it was through Christ. But the most

spk_0 important thing I want you to know today is just what Brother David said, Jesus, Jesus,

spk_0 don't cross for you. If you were the only one, he would have done it just for you. And that's

spk_0 to know that your name was in his mind. He was thinking of you. And you may say that that's

spk_0 hard to believe. Well, believe it because Christianity and faith and Jesus is the only religion

spk_0 that can be backed up by science. You know, we always talk about science and all that. I mean,

spk_0 there's no debating the fact that Jesus was alive. He walked the earth that he died on across.

spk_0 And they don't even debate that he came back. That's what's crazy is this. I saw somebody make a

spk_0 comment about, you know, I don't believe, I don't believe in God. For me, when I walk outside

spk_0 in the morning, I see the dew on the grass. I feel the wind on my face or that reminds me,

spk_0 there is a God. And when I get plugged into God's people, that shows me that he is setting things up

spk_0 the right way for us. And so as you as you finish watching this podcast today, I want you just to

spk_0 remember that God loves you. And, you know, this is not a complicated thing. He didn't make it

spk_0 complicated. It is probably the simplest steps you could ever take. But it's also one of the hardest

spk_0 things that people ever do. If you pray to sinter prayer or you don't know the sinner's prayer,

spk_0 and you want to talk to somebody and you want to find more about this Jesus we're talking about

spk_0 how you can have a relationship with something somebody that can transform your life. Then you

spk_0 are going to have a way to reach out to me. Send an email. I mean, we'll get somebody in touch with

spk_0 you. It will better be me or somebody come on a team that will reach out and talk to you about the

spk_0 next step and and help you see how the Bible talks about after you get saved. How it's very

spk_0 that you're compelled to be baptized and you should go through those steps and you should find a

spk_0 church. You should plant yourself inside of that church. First get to know people. Get to know the

spk_0 church. Get to know the body. Then you plug in and then you start to really grow in your relationship.

spk_0 So as we end today, here's what I want to encourage you to do. I want you to put down your pen and

spk_0 allow God to pick up that pen and start writing your story. God bless you and we'll see you on the

spk_0 next episode of the God Stories podcast.

Church Hurt

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