Cherie Sohnen-Moe | The Value of Longevity and Learning Environment

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Speaker A I'm always suggesting to people that they get massaged because I know how profound the change it can make in their lives. And not just on a physical results level, but just getting safe non sexual touch incredibly impacts somebody, impacts how they are, who they are and you know, it's kind of hard to be mean to someone when you feel good in your body. So to me massage is what really contributes to world peace.

Speaker B Hello, my name is Jeff Large and you are listening to Choosing a Massage School. This is a show where I discuss with leading massage therapists everything you need to know when deciding on your massage therapy school. In today's interview I'm speaking with educator Cherie Sonan. Molly. So Cherie, welcome to the show. Thanks for your time today.

Speaker A Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker B So tell me, let's get a little bit of context for our listener. Tell me a bit about your background. I know you have just a robust amount of experience in this space and so what are some of the high level things that would be beneficial to the people listening right now?

Speaker A Well, first thing I was a massage therapist for I think I was in practice for about 10 years. So I do have the experience of actually being a practitioner as well as being an educator. I did my first workshop communication workshop I co created in college when I was like 18 or 19. So that part of being an educator has been with me ever since. You know, I think when I was young it was more called being a leader. But what it really was was I was always an educator and I was always an avid learner. I always was reading and wanting to know more and I probably drove people crazy. I think I was probably one of those kids that always asked why? So I've been involved, I've been a teacher. I taught for 10 years at a massage school, I taught for 10 years at an acupuncture college. I was also on faculty of a holistic health college. I've been very involved in the industry in terms of being involved in organizations and I was a co founder and served on the board for nine years and was the president for two years for the alliance for Massage Therapy Education.

Speaker B Excellent. So that is obviously like one kudos like huge, huge robust CV there that'll come very handy. And so as we begin this conversation like really what we're hoping to go towards is what do I need to know as somebody who is considering and thinking about entering into massage therapy and then especially around what you're saying, this huge part of your expertise is the education behind it and so I'm curious if we could just start for somebody that's at the beginning of this journey, where do I even start to focus? What are the kinds of questions that I should be asking to see if this is even something that I want to do or that I should do?

Speaker A Well, in terms of the questions to ask yourself, the most important thing is do you really like people? And I know that sounds silly, but you've got to really have a passion for people and a love for people and to be non judgmental and accepting because you're going to get all kinds of people on your table with all kinds of conditions and people are going to look all sorts of different ways. So if you don't have that openness and that pure joy in helping people, this is not the best career for you. So that's like the very first question and it just takes some soul searching to answer that. And it's not bad if you don't have it, but it's horrendous for your career if you choose this path, if you don't have that. So that's the first thing. And then do you enjoy kind of working solitarily? Because even if you work for a company, you're one on one with a client and yes, there's a little bit of conversation that takes place, but mainly sessions are done very silently, so there's not a lot of interaction. So if you are one of those persons that just thrives on constant interaction with people and feedback, again, this might not be the best career for you.

Speaker B Do you feel like, is that as easy as putting it as like an introvert, extrovert type of a thing or do you consider it different?

Speaker A No, it's very different because there's lots of introverts that do quite well in massage and there's some extroverts. I mean, you've got to be somewhat of an extrovert because you've got to be out there promoting yourself. So it's a delicate balance. If you can find joy in working with people without necessarily having a lot of interaction with them, and you can get that joy from seeing the results, what happens after a session and without it having to be very verbal interactions, then that's good and that would be a key. But if you're the type of person that needs a lot of verbal feedback, then it might be a little tricky to be in this profession.

Speaker B That absolutely helps give it a little more context. And so let's say some of those things are in place and we begin the journey we want to start thinking about this. How about. Let's just start high level. What are your general thoughts on formal training for massage therapy?

Speaker A Well, I believe in very high standards. And I think that in looking for a school, I recommend that you look for a school that meets the standards that you have. But not just that, but how they present themselves and how the school is organized. Let me describe what I mean by that. Let's start from assuming that whatever schools you kind of narrowed it down to, they're accredited, they have a good reputation, all that parts in place. But then you have to look at how do they run their classes. For example, I had a friend who decided she was going to go to massage school. And there were two schools she was choosing from, and they were both great schools with great reputation. They had good teachers teaching there. And one school was kind of, I would say, more on the hippie side. And that's kind of the school I thought she would choose. But she didn't because that was more of her personality. But it was a school where people sat around on the floor in circles for their classes. And so it was that kind of approach versus the other school where everybody was sitting at tables and working with the projectors, you know, and there was a whole different atmosphere. And she chose that one because she knew that when it came to learning, she needed a lot more structure. And that kind of information is really hard to get unless you visit the school and are able to at least peek in on a class and see. But you can also ask them how do they run their classes? And maybe there's a mixture and that could appeal to multiple aspects of how a person likes to learn and how they like to be spending their days in education. So that's an important thing. There's two real key aspects. One is how are the teachers there? Are they certified? And a lot of teachers aren't certified. The alliance for Massage Therapy Education has only started their certification program a year ago. Some people have certification because they've gone to college for a teaching degree. Most don't have certification. And while that's ideal. But in the meantime, have they had any kind of teaching training? And I would also look to see, does the school offer teacher training for their own teachers? Do they have in service workshops? Do they have a commitment to their teachers being excellent? Because you can have a school with good curriculum on paper. But if their teachers don't really understand educational concepts, they don't really understand how to teach, then the students are not going to get the best education. And unfortunately, more in the past schools are getting much better about this now. But in the past, they would often choose their teachers from previous students that were great in the subject. And that's dangerous because somebody may be a subject matter expert, but can't relate well to students or can't encourage those students to embrace the learning. And that's really unfortunate. So looking at that and that you can look, you should be able to get some of that information off a website to see what they do. If not, ask, what kind of training do they require of their teachers? Do they require that their teachers take continuing education courses in teaching? The other thing that is very confusing to me are schools that maybe only use one book. And I understand them wanting to save students money, but I remember when I was in college in the olden days, every class had at least two textbooks. I was taking what, three, four classes per quarter. And yet for the whole education, if they're only giving students a textbook or handouts, then I would be very. I would have to really look into that school and see what else that they're offering.

Speaker B Yeah, it's so interesting. So this matter of having instructors who have experience in the field is critical, and we touched on it in several past episodes. But Sherry's point about having a diverse curriculum that. That uses many different resources is also important.

Speaker A Well, like I said with the textbooks, what kind of textbooks are they only requiring one textbook, no textbook?

Speaker B And what is the. I feel like that might be a symptom of something. What do you typically see then when a school is either requiring no textbooks or limited textbooks? What is kind of the natural consequence of that?

Speaker A Well, the consequence is that the students really miss out. How can you really learn when you've got a primer that's 800 pages and covers every topic? You don't get the depth. You get kind of the basics. And the concern for me as an educator is that a lot of students are not necessarily going to take the time or spend the money to go get other books after they've graduated. Yet if they had those books in school, most likely they keep them and be able to refer to them. So even if there's topics that you can't get to in class, but you got through half the book or something like that, you can feel confident that your students, they now have that right then and there so they don't have to all of a sudden be in the middle of a session or get a new client and realize they need to look something up. And yes, they can go online and look a lot of Things up, but it's not as easy as that sounds.

Speaker B Yeah, no, that makes sense. So in that same vein, I mean, there may be some overlap here, but what are say, like the top four or five things that you would look for when considering a school or the kind of the validity or the quality of a school?

Speaker A Well, I would look first for its longevity. And I know that's kind of not fair to the new schools that are probably some really good schools, that if not, then who's running them? Who's the founder? Maybe this is a new school, but they've been running schools or directors of other schools for many, many years. So who is the founder? Who's actually running the school? Do they actually even have an education director? Now, smaller schools might have a person who's an education director and also has four or five other hats, but do they at least recognize the importance of having an education director? So I would look at that. I would look at their materials. What do they have? What kind of information do they give? Is it just like four or five pages on their school, or are they transparent? A lot of schools, I've gone online and I've looked at some of them, they put everything up there. They put their attendance policy up there. They put their grievance policy. They have all of that so that people can see how they run the school. And I think that's really important. So transparency, a good foundation. So it shows some kind of expertise and commitment to true education in terms of the classes that they offer, how they offer those classes, and like I said before, their commitment to supporting teachers and being good teachers. And do they support the students in learning? Do they at least have local resources for students to go to, to maybe learn how to study or if they're having anxiety or things like that?

Speaker B Sherry explains how some schools allow students to enroll and start at different times throughout the year. However, this can lead to some classes being in a less than ideal order. It could be problematic if a class you join expects you to know something that you haven't taken yet. Be aware of this when you're looking into different massage schools and of two.

Speaker A Cases specifically where somebody was taught deep tissue in their first round of classes and they didn't get their anatomy till their last round of classes.

Speaker B Yeah, that's crazy. All right, what about in terms of something like hours? Like, how many hours of training should I be considering or should I expect it for even just like basic, if not above?

Speaker A That is a really tricky question because truthfully, if all you're talking about is how to give a basic safe massage that's hardly any hours. Is that really what we want when we have massage practitioners coming out? I think they need to start at a higher level than just doing a safe massage. Quite a few organizations got together and a lot of people contributed to what's called elac, the Entry Level Assessment Project. And they charted out an ideal curriculum and they did this originally without putting hours to it. And of course a lot of people kept saying we need hours. Yeah, this looks really good, but how many hours? And I'm not sure who the people were who came up with the hours ultimately, but they put it at 625 hours. Unfortunately that means to me 625 hours. If you have excellent teachers and great textbooks and good teaching resources at your campus and it's rare to have one of those, let alone all three. That's why they've had that 500 hour minimum because they look at the insurance claims and things like that. And because they're so low, that's part of where that, that minimum has come from. You know, Canada and some places in Canada, like in BC, it's 3000 hours and they really learn a lot. They learn a lot more than probably the average practitioner and the States would ever want. They might not want to do that kind of more medical oriented massage. So again, it really depends on what you're looking for and what kind of practice. And that can be really hard because you don't know yet. A lot of times you have no idea until you're in school.

Speaker B Yeah. So I mean I'm hearing two things. On one hand you have sort of that stable advice of the 10,000 hour expert type of scenario where it's like time does help. But I'm also hearing from you that not only with the time, like you can spend a lot of time, but if it's not well spent, then it might not be worth it overall. I mean it's hard to, I guess it's really hard to nail it down. But is there kind of like an ideal that you look for or that you would say I am a student with high expectations. I want to come out as a professional, I want to come out well equipped to start my journey. Is there a baseline that I should be looking for or is there a standard that I should just make sure, like I'm not going to go below X with these expectations?

Speaker A Well, you definitely don't want to go below 500 because I think that you'd be in risk of not being able to get licensed in certain states I would certainly look for more, but I would also look at what kind of classes are being required in those times. And all those schools, you'll know that ahead of time because they all share that information. How many hours are spent in pathology, how many hours are spent on hands on. And then what does that hands on mean? Because there are some schools that hands on is totally supervised hands on. And some schools, the hands on are where students get to practice at home and just take notes. And what's interesting, because it sounds a little contradictory, even though it's not, because a lot of schools, they'll offer classes where you kind of learn a little bit about different techniques. And there's pros and cons to that because it introduces the therapist to other things they just can't learn in a 500 or a 750 hour program because there's not enough time. But then again, that can also be a little dangerous because you don't want people walking away thinking that they're specialized in doing a specific technique that really they just had three hours to get them accustomed to it. You know, get them acquainted to it is a better way of putting it. So I would look at that, I would look and see. And let's say you already know that there's a certain type of bodywork that interests you. Hopefully you've gotten massage before going to massage school. And I am always amazed at how many people I hear about who, who never had a massage before going to massage school. And that kind of blows my mind because until you know what it's like to be a client, how do you know you'd even want to be a practitioner?

Speaker B The impact a massage can have on an individual is closely linked to the expertise of the therapist. Sherry's perspective emphasizes on how critical it is to not only experience a massage yourself before going to school, but also truly believing in the healing nature of touch.

Speaker A Well, I can, I can say a little bit it won't be the same, but I am just so amazed at what massage can do. And that's why, you know, I kind of feel like I'm the massage ambassador, because I'm always telling people to get massage, even though I don't do massage anymore. I'm always suggesting to people that they get massage because I know how profound the change it can make in their lives. And not just on a physical results level, but just getting safe, non sexual touch incredibly impacts somebody and it impacts how they are, who they are. And you know, it's kind of hard to be mean to someone when you feel good in your body. So to me, massage is what really contributes to world peace.

Speaker B Yeah, it's so funny because you can like. I see how somebody might want to even dismiss something like that. Elements of just. You're likely going to be in a better demeanor. And not only that, even from like these other levels that it's going to help with your immune system and it's going to help with these different components. This is quite surreal how each one of these techniques and each one of these facets of massage therapy can affect a person in that way. And that for you as a massage therapist or a person as a massage therapist, that they have that potential, hopefully positive influence over another.

Speaker A Yeah. And just to remember that, to always remember that, because that'll get you through your deepest, darkest days at work as a practitioner. To remember. Oh yeah, this work is miraculous.

Speaker B Yeah, no, that's really helpful. If I may, I'd like to circle back to. I mean this stuff obviously is extremely good, but if I could circle back one more time just to some of the formal aspects. Do you have any thoughts on or recommendations when it comes to say, like if I'm exploring a vocational school that offers massage therapy and then maybe other services versus a school that specializes in massage therapy?

Speaker A Again, there's no one size fits all answer to that because it really depends on the program. There's some great programs even at community colleges and there's some bad ones. The same thing for private schools that just focus on massage. The thing about schools that are just massage schools or mainly massage schools is they're usually founded and run by people who've been in the profession and who have passion about the profession. There are other times where if you going to a technical school or a community college that has a massage program, you want to make sure that the program director at least is, or at least was a practitioner or had a business that employed therapists. So they really understand the profession and that's why it takes research. It's not a simple little thing.

Speaker B Yeah, I think that's so interesting. The other thing that my mind keeps going back to is do you find like one of the things just because there is so much diversity. I hear a lot of this where because there's different options, they can change from state to state or even country to country in terms of what is expected. Like you said, like the minimum hours required in Canada versus the minimum hours required in some of the United States. Do you find that there are any like telltale signs of these things outside of what maybe you've already mentioned, but like kind of telltale signs of when I'm browsing the school's website or when I'm talking to a counselor or touring the campus of either green flags or red flags.

Speaker A Well, for the schools that I know of. I mean I've been dealing with the schools for 35 years because of my textbooks. But the ones that I really know of that I think are great programs tend to be the ones who, like I said, they, if you go to their websites, they talk about their instructors, they give their bios of their instructors and what the instructors teach and possibly even why they teach those topics. They talk about their commitment to educating and educating their educators. They list the textbooks that they require, always with a disclaimer that they may change because textbooks change, teachers come in, they change their mind so you can get a sense of what kind of textbooks are being required.

Speaker B Other important red flags Sherry mentions were things like grammatical errors on school websites, easily accessible information about accreditation and policies, financial aid resources and more.

Speaker A Other thing to look for is I would look for the go to the about us page and some history. Do they take pride in their history? And that's where you're going to see a real difference in the trade school websites and not all of them, but in general versus the individual massage only schools. Because the about us for a trade school is going to have everything. So you might have to dig a little deeper to have the about us. And hopefully they have something under the massage program itself that talks about the massage program, why they developed it, who's running it. And I think that the people that, that have a sense of history, that have a sense of why this is important, I find to me when I am reading about a school and they talk about the founder, even if that founder is no longer the founder anymore. But when they're talking about well, there was the founder, but maybe they're not with the school anymore, but they talk about the school and here's when it was founded and the mission and here's how the mission maybe has evolved over the years and here's now what we're doing and there is that sense of pride. I don't have a number system, but you're making me think I might have to come up with something. But I don't have a numbering system of how do you quantify whether a school has a sense of pride or not? Or is this just another thing they're doing to make money?

Speaker B This feels like a trade. I think that's such an interesting Point this really feels like a trade where the sincerity is more important than say, other ones. It seems like a lot you see in business. Obviously you want to be profitable and of course as a school or any entity, you'd want to be profitable. But tell me a little bit more about that sincerity piece. How needed is that in a school if you're considering them to go and get trained by them?

Speaker A Well, I think it's vital because this is a intimate profession and so you want the people who are teaching you and the school that you're attending to value that intimacy. And you do that with sincerity. We don't need massage mills. We got rid of most of the massage mills, thankfully. But still, when I think of the schools and there's been some heartbreak over the last few years, some incredible schools with brilliant programs and the graduates were just out there doing fabulous work and those schools closed down because of financial changes. One great school just didn't make it through Covid. And to me that's where the sadness is, because when I see some great schools, and here's the flip side where there's problematic a lot of times some of these great schools because they're run started by people who maybe were massage therapists to begin with and you know, hire people that are compassionate and passionate about the field, they might not have some of the management skills that are needed or they might not have the financial acuity to have the longevity as a school. So there is a little bit of that flip side. So you want to have some balance in there?

Speaker B No, that makes sense. What about for you personally, is there anything that you wish you knew, kind of looking back in hindsight, wish that you knew earlier in your career that you would want to sort of bestow that wisdom on the listener today in terms of schooling, I mean really either I'll let you, I'll leave it open ended, whether it be schooling or whether it be just on your own personal massage journey.

Speaker A Because schooling was, you know, I went to school in the dark ages where you know, school was like 120 hours. So to me, what's, what's more important, which I would have learned earlier on was just because I did learn it, but it wasn't until a couple of years into my practice and that was just really setting a schedule and keeping it.

Speaker B What do you mean by that?

Speaker A Well, particularly if you're self employed, because a lot of times as a massage therapist you've got a lot of flexibility in your life, which is a great thing, particularly if you have a simple lifestyle or maybe you're in relationships so you're not the only one earning income. But even when I was single and I was a massage therapist, there was time. For the first couple years, I lived Southern California by the beach. I didn't have clients. I was at the beach. And I learned that I needed to set some hours to make sure that every day I spent time in my business, either working with clients or marketing my practice or studying, learning something more so that it became a regular thing. And of course, there was still flexibility, but there was that commitment to owning that I was a business person. Even if you're an employee, you know, be really clear where, where do you start and end? What's your commitment? Is there a commitment to your clients? Some clinics, they have the therapist do follow up, and other places it's all handled by staff management. So you need to find out where it is and where you're most comfortable.

Speaker B What about, as a final thought, is there anything that you want to make sure prospective students know that we haven't covered yet?

Speaker A We covered it a little bit, but when we talked about the types of classes that are offered, you make sure that they offer other things that you might need. Do they offer classes and communication skills? And again, I would look for where I had strengths and weaknesses if I didn't have a good background, if I didn't have a good business background, or if I knew maybe I was that person that was very shy, could use some skill building and how to, how to present myself better and things like that. Is that part of the program or is it not? And again, that doesn't mean a school might not be a good or a bad school in general, but what's a better school for you? And again, so it's those kinds of things. But the other thing is I would also look and see what kind of equipment they have in their school, what's their technology like? I remember when I was teaching at the acupuncture school, they had one LCD projector for the classes we had to share or bring our own to do our PowerPoint stuff. So it's things like that or, you know, do, do they have hydraulic tables in the clinic? Yeah. Or are you going to be expected to have to reset your table every time because the last person who used it was a foot taller than you. So that's the kind of thing also. So it's their equipment. And of course, now more than anything else, and people are pretty spot on about this right now anyway, is that how are their sanitation protocols? Some places might walk the talk, but when you actually get in there, you see they don't do it.

Speaker B No, all of that is very helpful. So if our listener wanted to just check into what you're up to or learn more about you, where's the best place to go?

Speaker A Probably my webpage, which is sonandash mo.com or they could also go to my Facebook page. But my web my webpage has all sorts of stuff and I have all sorts of free resources for practitioners on there. Besides, you know, the stuff about me and you know, stuff they can buy. But there's a lot of resources on there because I believe in sharing information and giving people things to help them get started.

Speaker B Yeah, that's perfect. Thank you again for your time today.

Speaker A Thank you. This was fun.

Speaker B If you know someone who's considering a career in massage therapy, please share the show with them. Or if you are considering a career in massage therapy, make sure you're following us on your podcast app of choice. You do not want to miss future episodes. Choosing a Massage School is sponsored by East West College of the Healing Arts in Portland, Oregon. East West College has been successfully educating massage therapists in a safe, supportive and professional environment since 1972. To learn more about east west, visit eastwestcollege. Edu. The show is created in partnership with Come Alive Creative. The show is produced by Maggie Fisher and edited by Isadore Nieves. I'm your host, Jeff Large. Thanks for listening. SA.

Cherie Sohnen-Moe | The Value of Longevity and Learning Environment

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