Building Allyship Beyond the Classroom with Flint Del Sol | Ep. 23

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 But I wanted to write a book that would have been helpful for me when I felt the most

spk_0 alone as a teacher in doing the work that I knew was so important.

spk_0 I think, you know, all of us are allies to somebody or should want to be allies to somebody.

spk_0 There's a community that you're not a part of that needs you.

spk_0 This episode and others like it are brought to you by the generous support my patrons over on Patreon.

spk_0 If you'd like early access to every video and every content, consider joining our community.

spk_0 Hello and welcome to Closeted History, the podcast where we out the queer and

spk_0 trans history that you never knew. I'm your host Destiny, I use she-day pronouns,

spk_0 and today is like a dream come true because I am joined by one of my favorite creators of all time.

spk_0 Flint Del Solm, a trans speaker, educator and writer who is passionate about creating

spk_0 equitable spaces in education for LGBTQ plus folks. Flint is releasing his new book,

spk_0 Teach Like an Ally, and Educators Guide to NerDring LGBTQ plus students in July of 2025

spk_0 as a helpful tool for educators all over the US. And we are lucky enough to have him on to tell us

spk_0 about it, the inspiration, and his journey through writing his very first book. Thanks so much for

spk_0 being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on the show. And we've

spk_0 been online pals for some time now. I actually just got a notification today on my time hop.

spk_0 That I started my teacher, Graham, like six years ago today.

spk_0 Hey, congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. And so that's how we connected both being in the

spk_0 educator's space. So as an educator myself, I know that this book is going to be a really

spk_0 necessary tool for all educators, including classroom teachers, administrators, school specialists,

spk_0 and more. So I'm really excited for it to come out. Can you tell us about what inspired you to

spk_0 write Teach Like an Ally? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I was an English major and so I feel like every

spk_0 delusional English major is just waiting for their opportunity to write a book. Of course.

spk_0 I actually did. I don't know if you ever did you ever do the national novel writing month?

spk_0 No, no, I was a big nano remote girlie like I loved the 30 days right 50,000 words. And I don't

spk_0 think that writing this book would have been possible without the years of just trying to like

spk_0 get as many words down in a month as possible. A book seems like really big like a large thing to

spk_0 choose to do. But yeah, for those of us that have spent any amount of time in like, you know, college,

spk_0 it's just a bunch of three page papers over the period of six to nine months and then they put it

spk_0 in a binding, which is great. It's it's less intimidating than than you'd think. But I wanted to

spk_0 I wanted to write a book once I left the classroom because I left a year ago. I wanted to write the book

spk_0 that would have been helpful for me when I felt the most alone as a teacher in doing the work that I

spk_0 knew was so important because there's not a lot of us doing it. There's usually and I talk about

spk_0 this in the very first chapter. There's like the designated queer teacher on every campus,

spk_0 right? That like it's their job to care about all the queer kids on the campus and everyone calls

spk_0 them. And that's not sustainable, right? You cannot be the designated queer teacher. And so having

spk_0 the kind of book that not only you could use as a resource, but you could photo copy pages,

spk_0 write tear things out and hand them to a principal, a colleague, and try to bring more people into

spk_0 doing the work that we know is so important for keeping not only our queer kids connected on on

spk_0 campus, but alive. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that that's like where you start because I mean,

spk_0 you know, I'm the the designated queer teacher and have been in a lot of spaces and it is really

spk_0 heavy. It's really, really heavy. And so I think that's also part of why I was kind of drawn to your

spk_0 page because you were like very visibly out and proud and you know, like holding the torch for

spk_0 all of us, you know, not only the kids, but also for other educators. So your work is really meaningful,

spk_0 really. And I'm so happy to not only have you on the show, but also be able to showcase the work

spk_0 that you're doing because it is important. I'm excited to get to share it like to finally get it off

spk_0 of Instagram, right? And TikTok and to Barnes and Noble. Yeah, yeah. And unfortunately, with the

spk_0 TikTok band, you know, this becomes even more relevant. So I did mention that I think that the

spk_0 book would be helpful for all educators, but who would you say is like the intended audience for

spk_0 your book? And what are some things that you hope that they take away from it? I feel like the most

spk_0 narrow vision for who the audience of my book is. I wrote this for me at 21, like for the brand new,

spk_0 and I call them many muffin teachers, right? Like the brand new teachers that are like on Pinterest,

spk_0 making cute little craft pencil holders, excited to buy borders for their pinboards,

spk_0 right? Like showing up a half hour early for staff meetings, like someone that is just like so

spk_0 full of life going into teaching. And I remember, you know, what I was like graduated from college and

spk_0 I told a veteran teacher that was a, you know, a part of my family's inner circle, how excited I

spk_0 was to become a teacher and he goes, well, that'll go away. Like you will not be, I know, like

spk_0 number one, yeah, it that happens. Yeah, you don't tell them many muffin that, right? Like I'm so

spk_0 excited to be alive. Like I've got at this point, right? I've not transitioned at all. Like we're

spk_0 fully a straight woman going into teaching. And so I've got like the chunky belts. And, right? Like

spk_0 heels, I'm just so excited to be involved. And I think I wrote this book for for that teacher who

spk_0 needs to be warned what it's going to be like, right? What this, this work is going to be without

spk_0 taking all of their joy, enthusiasm and passion for the work or just crediting it, right? Like so

spk_0 often veteran teachers look at younger teachers and think like, well, that, that won't last. Like

spk_0 you won't be able to keep this because it's a, it's a system that's really punishing, but at the

spk_0 same time, you need to feel enthused. But the book is more, more for just the me at 21, right? But

spk_0 but that's, that's who I picture it every time I was writing a new chapter.

spk_0 Mm. Okay. Would you say that it's like exclusively for educators?

spk_0 No, not at all. So this is a book, right? I'm talking to educators, but I'm also talking to parents.

spk_0 Right? I'm talking to families and I'm talking to our community at large. All of us have an

spk_0 investment in education. And we're right now seeing a slow chipping away. I mean, it's not even that

spk_0 slow, a valuing public education. And I think the more that we do that, the more we don't understand

spk_0 what role a teacher can really have, what role a school can really have in a, in a kid's life,

spk_0 we're going to be doing all of our students a disservice. I think even, you know, the, the title of the

spk_0 book is almost even a little misleading, talking about LGBTQ students because it's not just for them

spk_0 either. A lot of the things we can do for students in classrooms that benefit queer kids benefit,

spk_0 not only every other marginalized student, but all of our students are going to get more out of

spk_0 their time and education. If we, if we put more thought and consideration to how we, how we raise

spk_0 them up. Yeah, absolutely. Well, what were some of the, the challenges that you face while

spk_0 writing the book and how did you overcome those? Well, I think they're, I mean, there are a lot of

spk_0 challenges in writing a book like this. I think the, the easiest part, honestly, was finding someone

spk_0 who wanted to publish it, which is not what my experience has been in the past when it comes to

spk_0 writing things. It was really like that, my publisher, Wiley, like, reached out to me and wanted

spk_0 me to write this book, which was great because that's a hard start. Right. For me, the, the hardest part

spk_0 was, was seeing just how quickly we were changing what was expected and legal in American classrooms.

spk_0 Like, if you look at, right now, if you decide to go on Amazon or wherever and find books for,

spk_0 you know, trying to help LGBT students in classrooms, they're written for a different time. They're

spk_0 written for, right, even 10 years ago, a book like this in 2015 reads different. It just anticipates

spk_0 that you're not going to run into even half the barriers that we have now. The idea that you might

spk_0 not have, and you know, if you're in entire states where you can't ask a student what pronouns

spk_0 they want to use, right? Or that they, they use a nickname in your classroom that you can't have,

spk_0 you know, like a rainbow flag sitting in your coffee mug with your pens, right? That that's,

spk_0 you couldn't have told me that in 2014, 2015, that that's the world we were going to be in. Yeah.

spk_0 You have this vision of like we're going to continue to have only progress forever. And a lot of

spk_0 these books are written for that world, right? They're written for a projected world, which you will

spk_0 only be able to do more for these students. Why would you ever have a time in place in which you

spk_0 could do less for them? And so the challenge was trying to find, you know, how can I speak to a

spk_0 teacher in Texas or a teacher in Florida, or you know, in another two years, it's going to be a teacher

spk_0 everywhere who can't do some of the more classically allied behaviors, right? Like you think about

spk_0 what we used to tell teachers to do to try to be better allies for trans students is going to be

spk_0 not only not advisable, but like flat out illegal in in a lot of places very soon. And so this book

spk_0 was written for for that world. Like I wrote for a world anticipating that most of like the classic

spk_0 avenues that we would have would not be available else anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And I would argue that even

spk_0 things from like five or six years ago are not quite as applicable because since the start of the

spk_0 pandemic, the lockdown portion, you know, the pandemic is often going and that continues to impact

spk_0 our students and and our schools and communities. And so I think that, you know, having something that's

spk_0 relevant and up to date is going to be really, really crucial. I really feel for our fellow educators

spk_0 in Texas and Florida and places where they're facing a lot more obstacles than than some others.

spk_0 When did you start teaching if you don't mind me asking? Oh, I mean, that's an interesting question,

spk_0 right? Like for any teacher, when did you start teaching? Is it when you got like your first time

spk_0 teaching job? Is it when you started student teaching? Is it when you first had the opportunity to

spk_0 begin front of a student? I would say my first time when I considered myself a teacher was when I

spk_0 started teaching beginning writing classes at my college. And I was writing to you there. And so

spk_0 my first secondary classroom, not as a student teacher in 2013. Okay. So you went through like a

spk_0 teacher ed program? I did. Yeah, I went through like the anybody who teaches in California,

spk_0 especially seven California, Cal State Fullerton is like the go to, if you're going to be a teacher,

spk_0 you usually go through that program. You see I has gotten very popular now too, but that was the

spk_0 program I went through. So a year of student teaching, I taught three different classes as a

spk_0 student teacher under two different master teachers and then yeah. Okay, cool. Well, and I know the

spk_0 like the certification process in California is really competitive and tough. You can make it here,

spk_0 you can make it anywhere. Yeah, it really is. And I think that you know, student teaching, and this

spk_0 isn't what we're talking about. So I'm going to try really hard not to go on like a super long tangent.

spk_0 I have so many big feelings about student teaching. You know, actually, it does, it is relevant.

spk_0 I'm going for it. Student teaching in which you ask a young person, right? Someone who's in college

spk_0 2021 to take a year of their life in which they are not able to take another job.

spk_0 If they're teaching essentially full time, in addition to a full load of classes, and you have to pay

spk_0 the school, right? You don't take a salary during your student teaching. You don't even get to take

spk_0 an hourly for that time. It makes teaching inaccessible in a way that doesn't make sense anymore.

spk_0 And I would say never made sense. But if we keep saying, we want representation in classrooms,

spk_0 we want students to have teachers that look like them and come from the same neighborhood they come

spk_0 from and have the same experiences. If we want more teachers than just who can afford to do that,

spk_0 student teaching is one of, I think, the biggest barriers that's keeping this profession from

spk_0 from being accessible. Because in California, it can be a living. Like you can absolutely live in

spk_0 California on a teacher's salary. But to get there, you kind of already have to come from a place in

spk_0 which you have money to burn or else you're taking out loans that are going to take a long time to

spk_0 pay back and teaching is a hard slog to try to live in debt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so we have a program

spk_0 here in North Carolina called lateral entry. And so like I initially did not go through a teacher

spk_0 ed program. I just got my degree in English. I was like, oh, I'm going to pick this minor because

spk_0 I've already taken like four classes. So we'll just do that one. And I mean, I couldn't find a job.

spk_0 I was waiting tables. And I was like, okay, I think I'm going to just do it. I'm going to bite the

spk_0 bullet and I'm going to start teaching, which I had already felt like kind of drawn to it. But

spk_0 because of student teaching, like, you know, I'm a first generation college student.

spk_0 I'm the first person from my immediate family to even graduate from high school. And like it just,

spk_0 it was not feasible for me to take a whole semester off to have a job where I'm not getting paid.

spk_0 Yeah. Exactly. And so like I just couldn't do it. And you know, thankfully, I was able to go

spk_0 through the lateral entry program, like through my state. And then later on, I got my masters. And

spk_0 so I did eventually go through like an ed program. But you know, it's really inaccessible. And

spk_0 absolutely what you said is so true about student teaching. But I started a little bit after you.

spk_0 I my first year was 2015. 2015. Yeah. Yeah. So you were you were right before a big change in the

spk_0 social landscape of education. Yeah. It really has changed so much since I entered. And I mean,

spk_0 you know, it's just I still have a lot of faith in our public education system. I think that

spk_0 there are a lot of people doing really good work. But there are some pitfalls that are actively doing

spk_0 harm to the communities that we care about. And yeah, it's it's a tough gig, but super rewarding.

spk_0 So in talking about teaching, how would you describe what allyship is in the context of teaching?

spk_0 I know that's a loaded question. I mean, so allyship, right? Like if you're asking this in a

spk_0 general sense of just allyship as a whole and then within education, it's hard because you know,

spk_0 we could use all the allies we can get right now, right? Like it is, it's tough out here to be

spk_0 trans or to be queer. And so you want to encourage people to to feel empowered as allies. And also,

spk_0 you don't want them to be so empowered that they accidentally stop being allies, which happens

spk_0 oftentimes when people's feelings get involved and they push up against finding out they maybe

spk_0 have not always engaged in allied behavior. And I don't love using ally like as a as a noun,

spk_0 right? Like to say that someone is an ally, allyship, I think is is should always be a verb,

spk_0 right? Or talk about allied behavior because you don't like pass a test and then you're good and

spk_0 you've received your allies certification. We know what happens when that happens. We get people

spk_0 like JK Rowling who asked their first allies certification course in 1998 and never went back for

spk_0 recertification and has now gone on a deep, deep downturn. And that happens a lot. And so

spk_0 within education, right, I think that to be an ally means to be learning. It means to consistently

spk_0 believe and understand there's no possible way for you to know what all your students are going

spk_0 through or even what most of them are going through. And so you want to be curious about them,

spk_0 to be a curious person and to be someone who's willing to find out that you've, you know,

spk_0 maybe even accidentally harmed someone or that there's something you could do better. I think,

spk_0 you know, all of us are allies to somebody or should want to be allies to somebody.

spk_0 There's a community that you're not a part of that needs you. And so if we have that mindset,

spk_0 and this is what a lot of this book is about, if you have the mindset of an ally,

spk_0 which is someone who wants to grow, then you have a better chance of not missing that recertification

spk_0 exam when it comes around. Yeah, absolutely. The conversation of intersectionality,

spk_0 like also comes up in that that, you know, not only being an ally to the LGBTQ plus community,

spk_0 but, you know, the many intersections of our identities and people who have multiple marginalized

spk_0 identities. And so, you know, really looking at the way that we can provide equity for them as well.

spk_0 Yeah, and I think, you know, when you're talking about intersectionality, and this is a little bit

spk_0 of a special interest as an autistic person who was in college and didn't know I was autistic,

spk_0 you like find one thing you learn everything about and it becomes your whole personality for a while,

spk_0 right? Like, and when I was learning literature, I fell down the early 20th century African-American

spk_0 literature pipeline in literature. And so I just started learning so much about all these different,

spk_0 identities. And that was the first time I was like, oh my god, like I, and not only born into a racist

spk_0 society, like I definitely perpetuate racist behaviors. And I need to like figure out how to look at

spk_0 that. And WED Du Bois is one of my favorite writers from that time period. And he's, I love him for a

spk_0 lot of reasons. He gave us that phrase, right? The black of the barrier, the sweeter the juice,

spk_0 like we love his, his, his work. But he wrote about double consciousness, right? Which is this idea

spk_0 that specifically, when he's writing about it, he's talking about black experiences in America,

spk_0 that you not only, if you're a black person in America, you have your own internal sense of

spk_0 identity in your sense of self, like you know how you see you. But then you also always have to

spk_0 think about how other people see you. And it will be very different from how you see you. And it

spk_0 is because you're black, right? And that's what double consciousness is. You have to have a

spk_0 consciousness of yourself and then other people seeing you. And that concept of double consciousness

spk_0 is now everywhere. You see a lot in disability spaces too. We're talking about that double

spk_0 consciousness of, you know, if you're in a wheelchair, and like someone just grabs you from behind,

spk_0 like what they are seeing you in a very different place than you're seeing you. And

spk_0 those identities, not only intersect, they compound on one another. And so if you're queer in

spk_0 an American classroom right now, and black, right? And Muslim, right? And disabled. It's not, you

spk_0 don't have like this pie that's spread into these different kinds of areas in which you're going

spk_0 to be experiencing not only discrimination, but just in day-to-day difficulty. It is going to be

spk_0 twice and then three times and four times more difficult to work through these spaces. And so I

spk_0 know that I saw an education anytime I saw another teacher, right? Or a student who had all these

spk_0 compounded marginalized identities. It was just miserable seeing them try to navigate public education.

spk_0 Because as you said, there are so many pitfalls still, even though we believe in public education.

spk_0 I believe in the concept of public education. There are a lot of things over the years that have made

spk_0 it really, really challenging to navigate. And I don't think I would have lasted nearly as long if I

spk_0 had had to deal with those compounded identities. And so, you know, I'm white and at this point a man,

spk_0 right? And so my trans identity, I hung on for a long time, but there's no doubt that the more you're

spk_0 going to be experiencing this kind of marginalization, the less time you will likely spend in public

spk_0 education. It's just a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's super relevant to a conversation

spk_0 about like the School of Prison Pipeline, feature retention, chronic absenteeism, all of these

spk_0 things that public education is facing right now. And that, you know, intersectionality definitely

spk_0 has to be the way that we lead those conversations. Absolutely. Really great point.

spk_0 Yeah, you brought up COVID earlier. Oh, yeah. You brought up COVID earlier. And you know,

spk_0 it's a critical point out that's still going on, right? Like COVID still exists. I live on a farm

spk_0 with birds bird flu right now, right? Like we yes, and every new thing is like every autistic person

spk_0 with pattern recognition is like, and it means that really every kid in school right now,

spk_0 if they were born before the pandemic, right? Has experienced a trauma. Regardless of their circumstances

spk_0 at home, every single kid. So even if it's not really obvious or evident, even if it's not right on

spk_0 the surface, there's a trauma in there that has been adding to all these other identities as well.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah. Have you ever used ACEs teaching? Like the adverse childhood experience?

spk_0 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like trauma informed teaching, those practices are so, so important. And

spk_0 part of a larger conversation about equity within education. And I think, you know, your white,

spk_0 I'm white. I'm a sign female at birth. You were a sign female at birth. And that that's also part

spk_0 of the conversation of education is that it is an industry that is dominated by white women.

spk_0 And historically, white women have been counter revolutionary in social movements. And so we

spk_0 really have to examine our roles within education and kind of the way that as you mentioned earlier,

spk_0 that we do perpetuate those racist, you know, oppressive systems just by holding the privileges

spk_0 that we do. Exactly. And just acknowledging it isn't enough. Right. You can't just say like, I know

spk_0 that I'm like a white woman in this space. Like you can't we have to then keep doing it. It kind of

spk_0 feels very, you know, my household is, my husband is his family is Mexican and has like really strong

spk_0 ties to indigenous life and culture. Right. And so I think a lot about like land acknowledgments in

spk_0 the same way that, okay, so you've acknowledged it. And what else do you get like, what else are we

spk_0 doing? Like what are we doing to address it other than just acknowledging it? Because white women

spk_0 in education, it exists for a lot of reasons, right. We talked about barriers in terms of

spk_0 student teaching, right. And entry into Asian spaces. The fact that we've like massively for whatever

spk_0 reason, feminized education, that it's something that's like a woman's pursuit, unless you're like

spk_0 a history teacher in high school and you coach football, then that's like the one or math, like those

spk_0 are the two. Yeah. You may have a little teeth or whatever, like why I don't know why. Like I guess

spk_0 they wrote it, they might as well teach us about it, but. Or a minister that used to teach the

spk_0 PE. Oh yeah, top of E for two years. And now he's a principal, a minister superintendent. Yeah,

spk_0 and the 15 year veteran woman teacher is going to be staying in her position forever, right. But

spk_0 yes, yes, let's stop before we get ourselves in trouble.

spk_0 Well, and it's interesting because some of the stuff is the unsayable parts of education,

spk_0 where like we see the autistic pattern recognition, right. Or just anybody can look around and

spk_0 see like, wow, I wonder why this is a universal experience. Why is every teacher who ever understood

spk_0 me, right? If I'm talking from a queer kid perspective, why is every teacher who ever

spk_0 understood me, an English teacher or an art teacher, right? Like what what is going on with that? Like

spk_0 why is that? And some of this is actually we can tie it to our history. And this is something

spk_0 that happens. I forgot I was here for the book in my book. I kind of walk through of the history

spk_0 of queer teaching, specifically in the United States. Oh, so cool. I know. Thank you very much. It was

spk_0 the longest that chapter took two months to write. And I wrote the rest of the book in like six weeks.

spk_0 So that history at the very beginning, the reason why we have so many women in education,

spk_0 especially at the start is that in the time in which public education was becoming really a part

spk_0 of American consciousness, we're looking like mid 1800s is when we're like really believing that

spk_0 we want to have education for everyone, which we want by the way, not because we're altruistic and

spk_0 wonderful Americans, because they believed that it would cut down on crime. But like if the kids

spk_0 were just in school, then we wouldn't have so many criminals. If the poor kids would just go to

spk_0 school, they wouldn't be picking our pockets while we're trying to buy a newspaper, whatever they

spk_0 were doing in 1840. And so they decided we're going to have public education. And at that point,

spk_0 right, most of the teachers that existed, the instructors were were men, right? You have men who

spk_0 were going and teaching small groups of boys in country schools. It becomes women because they

spk_0 believe that women were sort of the moral center of American life. So if you think about like all of

spk_0 this always goes back to Christian nationalism, in the American family, the wife was supposed to be

spk_0 the one that held everyone together morally. So she is going to lead us through Sunday,

spk_0 Bible study, right? She's the one who makes sure we get to church. She's the one that is keeping up

spk_0 on the kids morally. And so they were like, perfect. Women should be the ones who are in all these

spk_0 American classrooms. Because again, we're trying to keep kids from becoming criminals. We need to

spk_0 be the moral centers. And even then we think like, wow, that's still, you know, at least they were

spk_0 trying. Also, we can pay them half as much as we were paying men. And that was in her writings. So

spk_0 we have actual documentation from people who are making these arguments at the time that say,

spk_0 well, we should be hiring women because we can get this done for half the cost.

spk_0 And if we tried to get men involved, which you know, we still see, we still see every time an

spk_0 industry becomes dominated by women, regardless of how important that industry was to us before,

spk_0 we see huge drops in, in what they're paid. Which if we look right at the structure right now,

spk_0 if say like a typical American high school, and you've got the people who are making six figures in

spk_0 those schools are principles, vice principles, who are, yeah, Maryland men. Yeah.

spk_0 And when you do have, I had a woman principle for a long time and I loved her. She was tough and

spk_0 cool. I really, really dug her and a lot of other people struggled because she was, she was still

spk_0 operating as a principal has to operate. And a lot of people, men don't love when women are in

spk_0 positions of authority over them. Yeah. I have a lady principal right now and I love it.

spk_0 Women leaders are sometimes better. I was like, I always have Margaret Thatcher in the back of my

spk_0 head and we're talking about these things like. Yes. Well, and I tried to present myself as a

spk_0 anti imperialist and so, you know, imperial feminism is not it either. So yes, we do like some

spk_0 women leaders. That's true. Yeah. Exactly. Or trans men leaders like me. Wow. Yes. He's a feminist.

spk_0 Yes. He is a feminist. Well, so of course your book will have more in depth insight, but for

spk_0 hour in a view, what are some practical steps that educators can take to become better allies in

spk_0 their classrooms? Okay. This is when we're going to start to see like the influence my husband

spk_0 has had over me because my answer to this question two years ago would probably be more practical.

spk_0 I'd be on the side of the things you can do in your classroom and the more I live in love at

spk_0 therapist, the more it becomes a more of an inner question. I believe I believe with my whole body

spk_0 now, it is really, really challenging to become an ally for other people until you have exercised

spk_0 a ton of self-compassion and done a fair degree of healing your own traumas because some people get

spk_0 into allies spaces or you know, justice spaces from a place of wanting to express and avoid their

spk_0 own work, avoid their own trauma. And you can tell, right? You can tell when someone's in it

spk_0 and they are mostly filled with with rage and a lot of it's well earned rage, but it's really hard

spk_0 to then have compassion for other people if you cannot find it for yourself. And so I'm going to

spk_0 be like woo woo with my answer and say that there are a lot of steps in inner healing that need to

spk_0 happen before a lot of really great allied work. And it's mostly, you know, I don't know if you've

spk_0 ever run into someone who thinks that they're like the world's best ally and they're doing like the

spk_0 really easy drop-in solutions. I think always about pronouns in the email signature as like everyone's

spk_0 favorite allied behavior. They're like, well, I have she, her hers, in cursive under my name before my

spk_0 email. Clearly, I'm here for the trans people. I'm here for you. And that's the problem, right?

spk_0 When you skip straight to the practical things that you can do, you stop seeing it as a mindset and

spk_0 an attitude and a way that you approach the world. And if you're not doing that, if you're not

spk_0 doing your own work and figuring out how to like get your mind right, then all of that stuff after

spk_0 ends up being useless. Like, I don't know. Do you know that I worked at a health care

spk_0 non-profit for like six months? Yeah, I was working at an LGBT aligned health care non-profit name

spk_0 anonymized and redacted. And my job basically was to I like I did trainings and I had meetings a lot

spk_0 with healthcare providers for trying to help them better understand how to how to speak to the

spk_0 trans community and how to help their trans patients. Because it's different, right? And there

spk_0 are a lot of the things that are involved in that. And I once had a physician write an email to me

spk_0 after a training in which she said some of the most horrifying, transphobic things that you

spk_0 that I've seen committed to print in like a while. I was floored to see them coming from like a

spk_0 physician who would voluntarily went to a training. And at the very bottom, right? Like she's got

spk_0 she her hers, her little pronouns and her emails to get sure. And I was like girl take that out of

spk_0 it like stop doing your yeah, yeah, if you're a little ally behaviors that you don't change your mindset,

spk_0 it's not sustainable. And you'll have to be re-hot again later. Yeah, yeah absolutely. Well, so

spk_0 that's the mindset part. But are there any like practical tips that you're like,

spk_0 okay, if you're working on your mindset in addition, what are some other practical tips steps that you

spk_0 could take? Sure. And then I like keeping my tips as far as I can non-regional. And so I like

spk_0 sharing the ones that I think you could do in Texas and Florida, right? All these different places.

spk_0 And so one of my favorites is to to re-examine like some classroom policies to see if you are

spk_0 doing a policy just because it gives you, and I have to be really careful about wording here just

spk_0 because I know what it's like to be a teacher and to have a million things on your plate,

spk_0 is a policy there because it really really needs to be in order for your classroom

spk_0 to work and for students to grow or is it there for your sanity and for your control of the space?

spk_0 Because that's where a lot of like sneaky anti-allied behavior kind of gets in, right? Like I

spk_0 think constantly about like my bathroom policy is a great example. So my bathroom policy, I taught

spk_0 high school and I had one bathroom pass and the rule was you had to sign out, you had to sign out,

spk_0 you'd take your bathroom pass, go to the bathroom and be back, and then the next person could go

spk_0 after that. And that sounds great, especially as someone who like had a lot of students who loved

spk_0 to get lost on campus after a bathroom break. And I was mostly just frustrated because I was like,

spk_0 I'm teaching things, I want to come back. And of course now, right, as someone who knows more about

spk_0 also narrative urgence, no reasonable person can sit for two and a half hours in one spot on a hard

spk_0 plastic chair. Like yeah, you're going to have to get up and go outside for a second. But there's

spk_0 no supervision out there. And so we know there are things that are that make that really challenging.

spk_0 But my bathroom pass policy, I didn't realize because if a student was gone for too long, right,

spk_0 I'd give him a hard time. Like hey, like don't get lost next time. I got people here going to go.

spk_0 And I realized there was one gender neutral bathroom on campus and it was four buildings away from

spk_0 my classroom. And the bathroom is routinely one of the most dangerous places on a on a campus.

spk_0 Yeah, because there's no cameras usually right, there's no supervision. There are no adults in there

spk_0 like hanging out. It's it's out of the way. And so if someone's going to get into a fight or if

spk_0 there's going to be, you know, words exchanged that there are only two witnesses to it's sometimes

spk_0 into the bathroom. And for trans, that's that's horrifying. And so I had trans students I realized

spk_0 because they told me right who were like getting bladder infections because they were trying to

spk_0 hold it throughout the entire school day. Because they would plan right they would go before

spk_0 they left and they would come to school and they'd sit there and they would try not to use the

spk_0 bathroom. Because if they did, if they went to the public easy access one at the end of the hallway,

spk_0 they might run into someone who want to hurt them. And this is, you know, regardless of which one

spk_0 they went into, who cares which one they're going into for this route for this purpose, right.

spk_0 This isn't about their own internal validation of their gender in this bathroom either of them.

spk_0 They could, you know, end up in a bad spot. And if they'd went to the one further away, if they

spk_0 went to find the one gender neutral one, which is usually in the nurses office, right. They would

spk_0 come back and they'd been gone three times as long as anyone else because they had to

spk_0 hoof it across campus, find the key, ask if they can go in. And now they're going to get

spk_0 hassled by a teacher when they come back. Right. And so I always suggest like walk through a

spk_0 school day imagining that you're a trans kid, right. Imagine that you're a queer student like what are,

spk_0 what are like the sneaky policies, the little things that you're doing just like because it's making

spk_0 your life easier that might actually be really, really destructive to a student whose perspective you

spk_0 hadn't considered. Right. And that's everywhere, right. That's late work policies. That's, you know,

spk_0 you have x number of days to return something signed by a parent that they might not be talking to

spk_0 you that week, right. Like there are, there are a lot of things to consider and all of that

spk_0 complicates the teacher's life. And so I hope if you're listening, you know, I do show quite a bit of

spk_0 compassion for teachers in this. I'm not saying that every teacher who doesn't do these things right

spk_0 now is a monster. There are some things I wish I could go back and change, but also things I don't

spk_0 know how I would because you're still operating within a system that needs a lot of overhalls that we

spk_0 are not prepared to make. Yeah. How do you, and this is just like, you know, kind of off the cuff,

spk_0 because we're talking about it as an educator, you know, you were in the classroom for many years. How do

spk_0 you avoid internalizing that failure that the public education system is for a lot of students? How do

spk_0 you not internalize that as we become the token queer teacher? Hmm. Well, this is why I started with

spk_0 the inner work, right? Like you have to kind of, I think anybody, if you're going to be a teacher,

spk_0 if you're going to go into service, it's really easy to self-abandon to decide that like my needs

spk_0 and like my life are not as important. Like I don't know about you whenever there was like a sick day,

spk_0 I needed to stay home. I felt so guilty all the time. Absolutely. Because if you're a designated queer

spk_0 teacher and you're gone that day and some kid needed you and you weren't there, how do you not walk

spk_0 away without that guilt? And it's the inner work, right? It's like the process of like I'm doing my best,

spk_0 like I am doing everything that I can. I'm holding as much of myself as I can while I'm also doing

spk_0 what I can for these students. And there's no way to do it all. And if I burn out, right? If I just

spk_0 give everything, they talk about one of my least favorite quotes about teaching is that you're,

spk_0 a candle, you burn yourself to light the way for others. I hate that quote. I hate it so much.

spk_0 Oh yeah. I thought I'm almost through a through a window because there are so many teachers,

spk_0 especially many muffins, who go into teaching with that mindset, who think I am going to give up

spk_0 my whole life for these kids. And you will never be there enough to be able to alleviate the guilt

spk_0 that you're carrying around. There's no way. And so if you're that designated queer teacher, right?

spk_0 Or the one that students trust and go to, if you don't take care of yourself, you are modeling for

spk_0 them, what their life is going to look like. And that I feel like is such an important thing to

spk_0 to hang on to, right? Like, okay, I'm not there today, but they do see that if you're sick, you stay

spk_0 home. If you're overwhelmed, you take a beat. And that modeling, that modeling of caring about

spk_0 yourself and having respect for yourself, that's something that even if you're not there for an

spk_0 important conversation, that's something that they will see and they will keep forever. Because if

spk_0 they see my queer teachers, the ones burning themselves out, my queer teachers are here two hours

spk_0 before the school day, and they stay two hours after, and they don't have a life, then that's their

spk_0 vision for their future. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think it's kind of like where do the

spk_0 queer elders now? Yeah. You know, we have elders that can be for us and no disrespect to them, but

spk_0 that there is a level of responsibility that comes with that. And I think modeling what you want

spk_0 your students to embody, like you have to embody that yourself. I know for me personally, like

spk_0 free pandemic, me teaching me is way different than the way that I've adapted my relationship with work,

spk_0 especially in the last couple of years. I don't know if you've seen it, like I've talked about

spk_0 a couple of times on my story and like on closeted history, but I have long COVID. And I've had

spk_0 my relationship with work that like I don't have the same capacity that I once did. And that's okay,

spk_0 we're adapting and adjusting and like my body needs more rest because I have long COVID.

spk_0 But that is very common to see teachers burning themselves out because, you know, you kind of

spk_0 adopt this mindset of like saviorism, then you know, with how that plays into white

spk_0 saviorism and like all the other things that we talked about with intersectionality earlier,

spk_0 that it makes teaching not sustainable. So if you're a teacher listening to this right now,

spk_0 this is your permission to take your days. And be honest with your students about it that like,

spk_0 hey, I took yesterday's a mental health day because I needed it or I was really tired

spk_0 and needed some more rest and, you know, like I don't know about you, but I have people in my building

spk_0 who like could retire six years early because they have so much time just like accumulated. And it's

spk_0 like, dude, take your time, like take a day off, you know, the the buildings going to still be here,

spk_0 the kids, they will be fine, everything will be fine. So um, fellow educators, take your days.

spk_0 It's it's hard. It's hard to take those days. And I think that, you know, what's

spk_0 I had like nine thoughts while you were talking, which is the unfortunate part of of trying to

spk_0 have a conversation with a nerd, a virgin person, right? But I feel that. I'm trying to teach

spk_0 when it becomes your whole identity, right? And we talk about pre-pandemic teaching. I was there,

spk_0 I had a feeling you're there, right? Like the we're teaching is who you are.

spk_0 Absolutely. And this was, you know, this is a line from the first lines of my book, like before I

spk_0 knew anything about myself, I knew that I was a teacher, right? Like I knew before I was trans,

spk_0 before any before anything, I knew that I was a teacher. It's something that you just have in you

spk_0 and it burns you from the inside. You're like, this is who I am. But when you make that

spk_0 most of who you are or almost all of who you are, then you don't know who you are without it.

spk_0 And if you take the time, right? Like if you got these teachers that show up super early,

spk_0 stay super late, amazing, fantastic. It is also avoidant. It's also super avoidant behavior

spk_0 that keeps you from establishing who you are outside of your job because you are so much more than

spk_0 the career that you picked, right? Like in your teacher all the time, like you're a teacher if

spk_0 you're not in your classroom. And so start painting, right? Like start doing something that

spk_0 that makes you feel connected to yourself because if it leaves for whatever reason,

spk_0 and this is something we haven't quite gotten to yet, why am I not teaching anymore?

spk_0 So once you're gone, once you're not teaching anymore because that day will come,

spk_0 you'll retire, right? Or you will leave before you're ready to leave. You now have yourself

spk_0 without that job and who are you? And I definitely saw when I was when I was teaching and I thought

spk_0 about this way in advance. I was so lucky that I thought about this way in advance or this would have

spk_0 been a much harder year. But when I first left or when I was in when I was in teaching, I saw

spk_0 a teacher retire. So she had been teaching since she was 21 when she was a little money,

spk_0 muffin of her own. She retired at like 67 so a little bit further. She had to be kind of pushed to

spk_0 retire. And she had a full breakdown during a staff party for her, a full panic attack.

spk_0 Everyone we had the cake, everyone was excited. And then she realized like she did not know what she

spk_0 was going to do. Yeah, she was. This was, you know, from 21 to 67. That's it. And then all of a

spk_0 sudden you're 67 and like what do you have outside of the job that you've created? Or like if you're

spk_0 not seeing students every day, what gives you purpose and it has to come from inside, right? It can't

spk_0 come from what other people give to you. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think we're we're set up to kind of

spk_0 create our identity through our work in this capitalistic society that I think that's a common

spk_0 experience for a lot of folks like, you know, the first thing that we ask people when we first meet

spk_0 them like, Oh, what do you do for work? Or like what do you do for a living? And we let that like

spk_0 really define who we are and how we see other people. And so absolutely, you know, like teaching

spk_0 does very much become a large part of your identity. And I've left the classroom and then came back

spk_0 and like so I'm 10 years in, but I took some time off because my dad got sick and I was doing some

spk_0 consulting and I kind of had that like crisis moment of like, I don't know who I am without

spk_0 teaching, you know, the the youngins and being in a building and being surrounded by people who

spk_0 also have the same kind of drive and ideas about what we envision for the future. And so it does

spk_0 become hard. How have you been kind of navigating that since I know you've been doing lots of

spk_0 painting, lots of creative projects and we love that. But how have you been navigating that space

spk_0 in sleeping teaching? It is super interesting, right? Not just leaving teaching, but leaving like a

spk_0 really structured career. Like one of the things that got me into teaching in the first place before

spk_0 I was excited about it, right? And when it was proposed to me as a career option, I was like, well,

spk_0 you know, I'd have health insurance and I would have, you know, you know, what your year is going to

spk_0 look like. You have this like vision of this beautiful routine. You're on a schedule. Yeah, exactly.

spk_0 The autism loves it. As I'm talking, I'm like, you know, everyone's not like you say another

spk_0 thing and you're like, that's an autistic thing that I just said. Like it's, yeah, I love the

spk_0 schedule. I love knowing exactly like what things were going to look like moving forward. But it also

spk_0 meant I had to secure a future, right? I knew when not only the next paycheck was coming, I knew,

spk_0 you know, that in as long as I didn't do something terrible, I was going to have 20, 30, 40 years or

spk_0 whatever of consistency and then like a solid retirement that I could fall back on. And so,

spk_0 you know, when you're saying the first thing that you say to someone is, you know, what do you do? And

spk_0 I loved being able to say I was a teacher. It was this moment. And like, even if you say you don't

spk_0 feel this, if you're a teacher, you absolutely do. When you say, I'm a teacher and they go, oh, wow,

spk_0 like that's great. And you have this moment. You're still like, oh, yes. And they're like, oh,

spk_0 man, I couldn't do that. And you're like, that's right. You couldn't like, I can though. Yeah.

spk_0 Hard. Or you know, they say, oh, it's great having summers off and you go into your whole

spk_0 tie rate about how you actually every time someone says that, I'm like, we got openings.

spk_0 Yeah, right. You are welcome to come. You know what? Substitute shortage right now. You want to

spk_0 make $130 a day? Yep. There are some places in that I've taught where they called the sub fee

spk_0 that was higher than other counties. They called it combat pay. It was like, you know, you get,

spk_0 if you have a higher price district, it means it's harder to get subs to go to that district,

spk_0 just because either your class sizes are higher, whatever. But that was like, you know, with this

spk_0 easy vision, it was a great, wonderful view of the future. And also, like, I felt really proud

spk_0 of what I was doing. And so to not have those things and to suddenly have to figure out, like,

spk_0 you run through this, like, roll a dex of options when people ask you, well, what do you do?

spk_0 You're like, well, I could say quite a few things right now. Like, let's see. I could say, I am

spk_0 self-employed, right? I could go self-employed. I could, and no one likes that one. No one likes

spk_0 the self-employed answer. I'm feeling really good about, I've been using author lately. I love that

spk_0 one because that really throws people off. Because I'm, because I'm trans, I have this little baby

spk_0 face. They're like, there's no way. Like, and I'm like, yes, it's true. Please ask me. I also really

spk_0 like content creator or if I talk about making, I say sometimes I make videos for the internet.

spk_0 That's a big one. I'm a writer. But yeah, mostly in the last year, I've been writing this book.

spk_0 I worked for a nonprofit for a while. And right now, my husband and I are sort of like building

spk_0 a business together. And, and mostly that's for him, right? He's taking coaching clients. He focuses

spk_0 in neurodiversity and in trauma work and healing, right? Which we've been talking a lot about.

spk_0 But then also like I'm, I'm writing a ton. So I'm not only ready to pitch my second book

spk_0 already. So like I have my, I know, I know, that's so exciting. I have my outline together and

spk_0 everything. And yeah, just trying to find outlets that feel good, that like feed my soul, but also

spk_0 allow me to pay for emergency cat surgery when he eats a suction cup. Which is what he did.

spk_0 Cool, cool, cool. Yeah. And it costs a lot of money for them to take that out. So you got to have

spk_0 something. You can't just be sitting around painting at your, at your whim, you have to be bringing it

spk_0 in somehow. Yeah. Are you ready to talk about your personal journey? Yeah, let's talk about personal

spk_0 journey because we haven't, we haven't talked about the leaving the classroom and the trans identity

spk_0 stuff. So this would be great. With the bread crumbs, bread crumbs throughout the whole thing

spk_0 exactly. I know that visibility for you in particular has been quite a journey because like I

spk_0 said, you know, you and I have been online pals for quite some time. And I remember when you got

spk_0 docks when you were still teaching. So how did you kind of navigate the vulnerability of that

spk_0 situation while also trying to remain visible for your students and other educators like myself

spk_0 who you inspired? Man, that was a, that was a rough time, right? And it's for anyone who doesn't know

spk_0 which is probably most people. Right? Like I'm, I'm trans. I'm a trans man. My journey started

spk_0 when I came out as, you know, like a lot of trans men. We went lesbian. We went non-binary. Like

spk_0 there's like a series of steps that happened before you get to trans man. It's a hard leap to go

spk_0 from straight woman to trans man. So you have to do these like little bus stops.

spk_0 Thank you, Stubbs. Yeah. Exactly. It's funny because like all those identities exist. They're all

spk_0 important. Have rich, vibrant communities. For me, I was visiting all of them until I found the

spk_0 one that that felt right for me. So that journey was happening online, right? You were, you were

spk_0 ready. Yeah, I started making content before I understood any of that stuff. And so I was making

spk_0 videos about being a teacher and having I had a queer library during the height of the pandemic.

spk_0 I was even sending care packages home to families who would ask for them. So my library was usable

spk_0 when, when students weren't at school. So I was like wrapping stuff in brown paper. It was great.

spk_0 And yeah, I got, I got docs. I got docs actually by a very large conservative media outlet.

spk_0 published a series of articles about me in which they essentially said that I was

spk_0 indoctrinating the youth of America. And that I was sexualizing youth of America by having

spk_0 books that had LGBT characters and themes in my classroom. And it was horrifying. Like the,

spk_0 the article says some like really, really disgusting things about me. And they also used my

spk_0 dead name. And they figured out what school I taught at, which I had been very careful to keep

spk_0 offline. Because even when things were different, right? Back in the, the before times, before

spk_0 book banning and everything, I even then like I was a union representative. I knew what was

spk_0 necessary to keep yourself protected from a lot of the repercussions online. There's no way to do

spk_0 it. Like if you're online, you're not entirely protected. Like that's just the nature right of,

spk_0 of existence. But to be docs meant that suddenly I had people who were calling the school

spk_0 and making like horrifying threats. I had inboxes full of people who wanted terrible, terrible

spk_0 things to happen to me. And a lot of that started to come out to my students too, right? Like all

spk_0 my queer students were seeing the same thing everyone else was seeing. They were seeing how their,

spk_0 their neighbors felt about them. And I'm remembering so heartbroken about that, specifically. Like I

spk_0 knew that I could get through whatever terrible things someone said about me, but they were,

spk_0 there were students in my classroom and in my school who were just starting to understand who

spk_0 they might be. We're starting to ask questions about why they felt separate or why they felt

spk_0 different or why they didn't have the same experiences as their peers. And they were starting to

spk_0 realize that they could be who they wanted to be. And then the world in one swoop taught them so

spk_0 much shame so quickly. And so many kids stopped. And I am, I'm still so heartbroken thinking about that.

spk_0 And for me, right? Like the, I retreated into watching a lot of

spk_0 reruns. I watched the Lord of the Rings like six times when I was at home, right? Like you

spk_0 used to have some big long movie on that you know by heart so you can sit there and just melt into

spk_0 your bed and not go outside, right? Like I, I was scared of everything. I stopped going to the

spk_0 grocery store by my campus. I stopped buying school supplies near where I lived, right? Like I,

spk_0 it invaded every single part of my life. And I consider myself to be a pretty hearty person.

spk_0 I'm, I'm, I've tefl on my way through a lot of really bad experiences and a lot of, a lot of traumas.

spk_0 And this one almost, almost did me an almost crack me in half. I did not feel like it was going to be

spk_0 survivable during big portions of it, especially since it didn't go away. Because I'd known, I'd known

spk_0 other teachers. We had a group chat actually. I'd known other teachers and other parts of the country

spk_0 who also made content, who had been featured by the exact same conservative media outlet.

spk_0 And their backlash lasted for like a day or two. Sometimes a couple of weeks and then it went away.

spk_0 And I was like, why isn't that happening here? It's the say it's a even less salacious story than

spk_0 all these other ones, right? There's nothing here. I'm no wrongdoing from my school, right? Never

spk_0 punished for anything. Wasn't fired. Not put on leave. Like there was nothing there.

spk_0 And it just wouldn't go away for months and months and months. And I was like, oh, like I'm trans.

spk_0 This is never going to go away. The other teachers, this is happening to, you know, not all of them,

spk_0 but most of the ones I was talking to were cisgender. A lot of them were straight. And they were

spk_0 able to just kind of like bounce back into their normal routine. And it just didn't happen for me.

spk_0 And I started seeing people that used to be really excited about the work I was doing in classrooms,

spk_0 right? Like I got awards for my school district. People who had been there when it was easy or

spk_0 there when it was popular, vanished. So a lot of the support from a lot of people in the community,

spk_0 from families, from even from colleagues, didn't stick around. And it was a really like, it was a

spk_0 disappointing time, not just from what had happened with this far right media outlet. But also,

spk_0 I realized just how conditional a lot of allyship really was.

spk_0 Yeah. Well, I know that labor unions are important to both of us. And you mentioned that you were

spk_0 a union lead. Did your union help you like navigate any of that?

spk_0 That's an interesting question. Yeah. Yes. And also not always. I think that it's less that they

spk_0 didn't want to help. And what do you do? Like, how do you help? Because I wasn't being challenged

spk_0 legally, right? Like I didn't need representation. I didn't need someone in a meeting arguing that I

spk_0 shouldn't be fired because I wasn't nothing. None of that was happening. Well, I mean, at least there's

spk_0 that right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at least there's that. Yeah. A lot of that, you know, and I think this

spk_0 happens to a lot of queer teachers or really any teacher who comes from any kind of marginalized

spk_0 community, like you get pushed out in other ways. You don't have to be taken in front of a tribunal,

spk_0 right? There's no like survivor voting ceremony that's happening. It's kicking you out. The

spk_0 conditions become just more and more hostile until you can't abide it anymore. Yeah, until you leave.

spk_0 Until you leave. And then they don't have to think about it. Then they don't have to make any

spk_0 changes or I actually, I had a reporter recently, like in the last six months or so, talk to me and

spk_0 ask me like, what kind of supports do we need for trans teachers? And I was like, that is a

spk_0 an impossible question in a time in which being a trans teacher means you're going into hostile

spk_0 territory immediately. Like there is no, I need everybody else to go to support classes to learn how

spk_0 to be better colleagues and to be better community members. Trans teachers don't need support

spk_0 group, right? They need a different system that doesn't push them out when things are challenging.

spk_0 And I've seen it a lot. Even before I ever came out as trans, I saw trans teachers in my district

spk_0 and in my county and my state who were great teachers who wanted to be there, who didn't last

spk_0 more than just a couple of years because nobody would under the circumstances they were being

spk_0 subjected to. Yeah, and it's important that the other people are doing the work and not

spk_0 you know, the person in whatever marginalized community that like the work falls to other people.

spk_0 Well, I mean, at least your union was there, theoretically, but you know, that's devastating and

spk_0 I'm really sorry that that happened to you. I appreciate you sharing your experience and

spk_0 you know, still talking about it with us. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a part of my my journey

spk_0 that is not you can't separate it, right? From the work that I did before, after from the book,

spk_0 all of it comes from, you know, this is this was a really tragic end because I ended up leaving

spk_0 on my own. Like I I was done. Even the leaving was, you know, the guilt that still hung around for a while

spk_0 after like I'm leaving these kids. I was living in an area that's not particularly friendly to

spk_0 to queer people, even overall. I was one of the only out queer teachers and definitely the only out

spk_0 trans teacher. My campus, I think there was one other trans teacher in the district, who also

spk_0 worked in the union, but to leave right and to to reduce the trans teacher population by 50%

spk_0 by by making one choice and I'm like, like, can I just leave them? But I again, like the modeling,

spk_0 I had to recognize that it was not it was not a sustainable way of life for me anymore. And I

spk_0 needed to model what it was like to take care of yourself. And also I needed to take care of myself,

spk_0 even regardless of whether I was modeling anything for anyone else. So by the way, just sometimes

spk_0 the most radical thing you can do when you're in a community that is being targeted and oppressed.

spk_0 Yeah, even if it's out of spite, even if it's out of spite. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

spk_0 Well, how do you address the importance of visibility and representation for trans individuals

spk_0 in the education system within your book? I'm so glad you asked this question because you didn't even

spk_0 know you asked the perfect question right now. I have in like these books that you get for

spk_0 teachers, right? Like I don't know how often you have to read like the professional development

spk_0 books. They're generally like not interesting. Like they are written like they say and be able to

spk_0 read like stereo instructions, right? Like they're not fun. They're not engaging. And I was like,

spk_0 I'm going to write a book that could be used as PD that someone will actually enjoy being a part of

spk_0 and will want to read. And it meant having like all of these have so many like a sides and little

spk_0 bubbles that are like special like little Easter eggs as you go through. And one of my favorites is

spk_0 the Queer Teacher Survival Guide that is throughout the entire book. And so I speak very specifically

spk_0 to Queer Teachers and to trans teachers throughout because I wanted that to exist within the book so

spk_0 that any ally teachers, right, cis, straight teachers would know what their colleagues have to

spk_0 consider and what they have to think through. And also no one ever talks to us. No one ever speaks

spk_0 to us in our experiences and acknowledges how different it's going to be from our colleagues. They

spk_0 always, you know, if you had any training ever and you know back in the good times in 2015 or

spk_0 ever about queer understanding in public education, they always talk to the room of people who

spk_0 are listening to them as if none of them could possibly be queer or trained. They were always

spk_0 talking about the kids. And like we are also here. Like there are also queer teachers who like I

spk_0 have to take on all of this and also survive and also have this identity that paints them as a

spk_0 target on their own campus. And so I speak to them a lot about their own decision making in terms of

spk_0 social media presence. Like should you have one, what are the benefits and consequences, right,

spk_0 of one, what are some steps you can take to protect yourself and then in whatever way you can.

spk_0 And then I also talk about like this is, this is, I'm going to be really careful about my wording

spk_0 here, but I'm going to start by saying like evil queer people. So I said like like it's like no

spk_0 your gay enemies. Like there are people who are in our community and just because you are with

spk_0 somebody who has shared experiences with you doesn't mean that they're necessarily like a good

spk_0 person. And so there are some behaviors and attitudes to like watch out for in those spaces.

spk_0 Because I was like one of the most cutthroat places I've ever been where I was like shocked at

spk_0 how nasty people were being to each other was a teachers union LGBT caucus meeting. So like

spk_0 specifically the only people in the room were queer teachers. And it was vicious because sometimes

spk_0 you get like that that competition of you know there's only so much acceptance to go around or

spk_0 there's only like we have to approach this from one way. Everyone else's way is wrong. And it

spk_0 amplifies the more narrow your community gets. So you got to be careful. I also think that there's

spk_0 a lot of like in fighting within our community. And like just because someone's part of the community

spk_0 doesn't mean they're trans accepting doesn't mean they're not racist doesn't mean that like they're

spk_0 pro worker. They could be a capitalist gay, a corporate gay. All our gay enemies. All our gay

spk_0 the first time I ever met another gay teacher I was so excited right she was a coach and I was like

spk_0 yes another at this point right I was a lesbian. I was like another lesbian. And then she was talking

spk_0 to me about her political views. And I was like no what are you doing? Well how has your journey as a

spk_0 trans man kind of shaped your perspective on allyship within education? I know that we've touched

spk_0 on it a little bit but if you have like a not a more clear answer but if you have more time

spk_0 if you have more to add about how your journey has kind of shaped your perspective. Sure I mean

spk_0 I think that a lot of us start our understanding of our identities as being just like really good

spk_0 allies. Like we start by thinking we're just there for other people right like I'm just here

spk_0 because I care so much about gay marriage not for any not because I ever want to get gay

spk_0 married but because other people should be able to get gay married right. And that's kind of what

spk_0 happened with me. I started going to classes that my local LGBT center was putting on about

spk_0 policies for trans acceptance and public education in California right where I was teaching.

spk_0 And first I was like I'm such a good ally right now like going to these meetings in which I am

spk_0 obsessively taking notes about trans experiences and internalizing them and thinking about them all

spk_0 the time like definitely this is a normal cisgender experience to be having. Right. And so that

spk_0 process of understanding myself when it comes to allyship has made me I think really understand

spk_0 why some people get wrapped up in the minutia of like labeling and gay keeping and like infighting

spk_0 and how it keeps us from being able to help each other because if you looked at me then and then

spk_0 like why is this cisgender woman taking up so much space you know in trans conversations or talking

spk_0 about trans things and it's like well because I wasn't right because things take some time to like

spk_0 figure out and it reminds me a lot of like the discourse of straight people at pride so often when

spk_0 we shut people down when they're trying to be a part of something which is different than leading it

spk_0 right like I want to make sure that's clear. When we shut people down we keep them from being able

spk_0 to experience like their whole journey and we are a union not a country club and so we need

spk_0 as much space as we can to come in and learn about our community and build it up and that representation

spk_0 sometimes like works itself out as they figure out who they are that that process takes time.

spk_0 Um, anybody who runs a high school GSA right now there are so many students that have like the same

spk_0 identity within the GSA like they will often have and it's likely because they are just kind of

spk_0 figuring stuff out like very rarely like a 15 year old have a strong handle on their identity forever

spk_0 right and like pick the one word that fits perfectly and then that will be it and because I had gone

spk_0 through that process myself it was so much easier to be compassionate for that instead of being

spk_0 frustrated by it. I had a year where every single kid my GSA said they were asexual statistically

spk_0 unlikely for 30 kids who are all LGBT and this is just like my well statistically unlikely

spk_0 which played out later right and it was like that's correct it was statistically unlikely because

spk_0 it was not actually happening and this is because right like we go through seasons and we're often

spk_0 like figuring things out and trying things on and deciding what works for us, leaving some labels

spk_0 behind taking on new ones going back to old ones and my journey has allowed me to make space for

spk_0 that process for other people as well because you're not wrong when you find another way to talk

spk_0 about yourself you're just at the next part of your own understanding of who you are.

spk_0 Mm-hmm.

spk_0 I don't know if that was a more clear or completely separate point.

spk_0 No yeah I mean I think it does take time you said that when you started teaching you were a

spk_0 straight cis woman and I mean like for myself I didn't come out until later in life either.

spk_0 I mean I knew like we all know but I didn't come out formally until I was like maybe in my mid 20s

spk_0 and at the time I was married to a man so it was like kind of a low stakes way of doing that

spk_0 and then in like 2022 I came out as non-binary and you know that's a long time to not know that

spk_0 about yourself and like I couldn't have gotten there without the first like coming out

spk_0 in my mid 20s and then learning more and starting the podcast and hearing the history and I'm like

spk_0 non-binary that's an option okay okay and now I use the language of like gender queer you know

spk_0 sometimes I'm a lady sometimes I'm a lady but like you know I think wholeheartedly that it does

spk_0 take time for people to kind of not only understand themselves through the experiences that they

spk_0 see others having but that like we got a lot of programming a lot of programming to like to

spk_0 D program especially as an assigned female a birth I think that like that's a very specific

spk_0 experience that comes with a lot of things that you have to kind of shed in order to learn more

spk_0 about yourself do you want to talk more about that and your experience with that absolutely I

spk_0 think that you know my my first thought is that this this um this being more open right that other

spk_0 people can go through their process and try and the labels it's important to keep that also for

spk_0 yourself right like that just because you move past the label doesn't mean that that thing

spk_0 that you used to identify with doesn't exist for anybody I think some people do that I see that in

spk_0 D transition or spaces a lot where they're like oh I found out I wasn't trans so trans people don't

spk_0 exist it's like that no wait hold on wait no like you can figure something out about yourself

spk_0 and then also other people are still right about who they are right and luckily we have like more

spk_0 data now about that than we ever have before um like we had that great national trans survey right

spk_0 that we had last year that I referenced in the book like five times that we've got some great

spk_0 great numbers about what trans experiences really look like uh across the country but I think that

spk_0 you know in understanding that understanding myself and we're deprogramming right what we were

spk_0 supposed to be there's also a deprogramming when you're trans right because I I don't consider myself

spk_0 a binary trans man but I move and through the world as a man I don't get misgendered ever anymore

spk_0 I like to say that I'm externally he internally they historically she right like there is a whole

spk_0 mess of things that informs who I am like I am a trans man but I'm not I don't think of myself in

spk_0 the same way that a cis man probably thinks of himself I have a a rich tapestry of experiences

spk_0 with gender behind me and I love that like I love that I have that and it took a long time for me to

spk_0 accept that about myself like I have no issue looking through and talking about past versions of

spk_0 my identity I love looking at like pictures of me in high school middle school I love how stark

spk_0 the transition is because it shows just how much I've experienced and I'm you know one of the

spk_0 few men who who knows what misogyny feels like right who is existed like I was identifying as a

spk_0 woman and existing and appearing as a woman until I was past 30 and so I've got more experience in

spk_0 that than anything else and so I know that and sometimes you can see trans men try to shut that

spk_0 part of themselves down in a way that is not affirming but shameful like they're ashamed of

spk_0 their past and of their their previous identities and I love that I I'm able to embrace that part

spk_0 of myself I tried to go hyper masculine at first my husband and I both did we both you know we

spk_0 were together when we both realized we were trans men sort of non-binary and so both of us looking

spk_0 at early photos in our relationship where we were wearing like chain like the chain and and being

spk_0 like really like our poses are like what are you doing like this is not a tom of them learn like

spk_0 like what what's going on yeah exactly like a hell of a bitch and my husband is like the most

spk_0 feminine man and because it's who he is and it's because who I am right and so when you embrace

spk_0 the core self that's beyond gender like who are you actually without this other thing around you

spk_0 and the same way who are you if you're not a teacher right who are you who you're your set of values

spk_0 your your love your passion right like that that core self it makes all the other gender stuff kind

spk_0 of like float to the surface in an easier way instead of trying to fit into what it means to be a man

spk_0 or to be a woman what does it mean to be me and what do I feel like on a day-to-day basis and I

spk_0 feel like wearing sweatpants mostly yep I mean hey if that affirms who you are my self the most

spk_0 the most affirming item of clothing that I own are my many many sweatpants well so after

spk_0 teach like an ally what's next for you what other projects or initiatives are you working on

spk_0 have a lot of stuff going right now which is very exciting I like having multiple projects I

spk_0 had this post online recently where I talked about my brain being full of soups I like thinking

spk_0 of myself as someone that is not just a kitchen it makes one meal at a time I have like

spk_0 nine or ten burners with ten different soups on at any time and so some of my soups currently

spk_0 I think I mentioned earlier I have a book that I'm working on getting a pitch together for

spk_0 for for the next thing but I also like you know the book the book that I did the first book is

spk_0 coming out in July pre-order available now and so link in the description link in the

spk_0 of course yeah link in the description and so like I have a book tour that I'm going to be

spk_0 starting to plan soon I have an agent how who's like helping me put that together I know like a little

spk_0 clap I do have an agent it does feel very cool to get to say that right now I have no idea when

spk_0 this episode is going to go up but I am currently designing a set of valentines for transmit

spk_0 okay using thrifted adult game magazines I found in a thrift store oh that's what you mentioned

spk_0 earlier that you were working on yeah yeah yeah and so I've got art going on I've got writing

spk_0 going on I have several articles coming out soon and working on one right now um specific to the

spk_0 psychedelic experience and um and gender identity and so it's um about mushrooms and so there are a

spk_0 last question what advice would you give educators who also want to write about their experiences

spk_0 for anybody who wants to write about anything the first thing you have to do is read a ton um and so

spk_0 I suggest if you want to write about your experiences as an educator what is everyone else saying

spk_0 my my favorite book as a teacher I don't know if you ever used they say I say it's my favorite book

spk_0 so they say I say as a model that um you use when you're teaching students writing because I

spk_0 write in future which is to figure out what do they say so like what's going on what's the conversation

spk_0 that's currently happening and then figure out what do you know what do I say what do I say that adds

spk_0 to this conversation and so your experience is totally unique you have something to say but you

spk_0 have to figure out how your I say fits into the they say so go and read a bunch read a bunch write

spk_0 down things take screenshots um of weird conversations you're having and keep them and you never know

spk_0 when they'll make a good insert into the book that I want to go purchase now after you purchase mine

spk_0 yes yes of course well do you want to tell the good folks where they can find you

spk_0 absolutely so my handle just Flint is fine if for whatever reason the Supreme Court does a

spk_0 major left turn and we still have TikTok I'll be there um you can also find me on Instagram

spk_0 I'm getting on YouTube it's just taking me a minute so maybe hopefully by the time this air is

spk_0 I'll be on YouTube as well um I'm also at del soul impact.com that's my my business with my husband

spk_0 and you can buy teach like an ally on pre-order at any bookseller because I have a publisher that is

spk_0 very thorough all right right on well thank you so much Flint for being on I really appreciate

spk_0 you coming on the show um and thank you all for listening and we will catch you in the next one

Building Allyship Beyond the Classroom with Flint Del Sol | Ep. 23

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