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Bird by Bird - Lazy Girl Footnotes
In this episode of Lazy Girl Footnotes, the hosts dive into Anne Lamott's renowned writing guide, 'Bird by Bird.' They discuss the challenges of writing, the importance of finishing pro...
Bird by Bird - Lazy Girl Footnotes
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Interactive Transcript
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What is your number one tip for an aspiring writer?
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Uh, finish things.
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Welcome to the Lazy Girls Writing Club, a writing club for anyone who loves writing,
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but also hates writing.
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This is a space to celebrate, commiserate and hopefully get inspired because writing
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is hard and maybe it had a really bad night's sleep and all they want to do is lie down
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now and I can't ever think about writing ever again.
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It's just, it's not our fault.
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No, it's never our fault.
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It's the sleep or the, I didn't drink enough water or I just feel a bit funny today.
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I had one and a half pints and I'm nearing 30 and it turns out that's going to wipe me
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out for a lot longer than I was planning.
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So yeah, I don't like the fact that at this age we have to think about tomorrow.
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Oh yeah.
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We don't have to think about tomorrow tomorrow.
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No.
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If I do this today, tomorrow is the right off and it's something like that, it's like having
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a pint and a half.
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It's like tomorrow isn't going to be the day I need it to be if I do that.
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I was a kid and I would hear adults being like, oh, I can't eat that.
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I'll feel it tomorrow and I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about?
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And now I'm like, I'll be feeling that.
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Days to come.
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Yeah, well, well, for rest of the week.
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Yeah, for days to come.
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For years to come, I will never go for that.
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I'm also like, I've been in just crampsy for the last three days.
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Oh, there's nothing.
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There's nothing.
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Every single time I get like a really good routine down, like I'm like, I started jogging
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again.
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Or like I'm back on doing loads of writing.
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Like I'm really doing stuff.
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I'm doing yoga every day.
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It's always, I always manage to do it like just the week before my periods do and then
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cramps it.
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And I'm like, I can't do anything.
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They're just all crumbles.
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And I'm like, crampsy.
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They're like, are you running?
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That's a cute thing.
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I didn't think you were anymore though.
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I see you're lying down and crying.
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Thanks, you're welcome.
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Well, we're going to try and power through the one and a half pint hangover and cramps
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the best today.
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Yeah, to, luckily, this is like a, we have notes for this episode.
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This isn't one of our normal check-ins.
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This is one of our footnotes episodes.
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So we're just discussing one particular thing that's interested us in the last few weeks.
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And in this case, it's a book that I have read and I'm basically giving you guys the
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cheats as to like, do you want to read this as well?
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Do you want to just steal some of the little nuggets of info?
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Can't wait to eat your nuggets.
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Did I already say the name?
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It's Bad By Bird.
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I can't remember my name.
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Just like a chicken nugget of info.
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Do you want the sharing box?
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That's up to you.
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Have one of my nuggets and then you decide if you want the sharing box afterwards.
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So we're going to be talking about Bird By Bird, which is a book that I feel like a lot,
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most writers have heard of if not have read or just have sitting on their shelf, which
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was, that was what the case was for me until like a month or two ago.
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I've never heard of it, but I also, I'm really bad at like books on writing.
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I never read nonfiction.
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I've actually heard since a nonfiction book, like on Audible and I've listened to a lot of podcasts.
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But I just like, I really am bad at like ever reading books that have information in them.
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Yeah.
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Have cold hard facts.
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Yeah.
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Give them to me in a fun way.
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What if there was a magic also when a dragon told me what if then I'm excited to do about
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it and like I'm, I'm very curious about writers' processes.
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So it's something I want to get more into.
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So I think it's interesting as well, because I've read a couple.
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And I've been getting more into reading books on writing by writers.
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But there's such a like vast spectrum of what that actually looks like.
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And so, you know, you've got your like play by plays like, like save the cat writes
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enough, all those kinds of things that are like, you want to, you want to write a book?
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Right.
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Here's how you plot it out.
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Here's how you write it.
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Here's how to write dialogue.
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And then there's ones, this falls more on the other side of the spectrum.
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There are some tips and there are some more instructive bits, but it's, it's way more
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like this woman's musings on writing.
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Interesting.
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And I read this in quite a short amount of time, which I would just caveat by saying,
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I don't recommend doing that with the song craft.
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I think particularly people like us who are constantly worrying about what we're writing
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and how well we're writing it and not being able to create something as good as you
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put up in your head, taking in a lot of information about it, all at once is just really overwhelming.
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And having like his had a right good characters and dialogue and plot and climates, it's just
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like, yeah, it's just too much.
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So I think, and also I think dipping in an out of a book like this allows you to put less
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sort of stock in the writers words and sort of see them for what they are and how they
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might work for you rather than like a doctrine that you'd need to memorize and like, yeah,
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because they're only coming from their own experiences and their own perspective.
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And they might actually work for you at all, which is fine.
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This is one of these things because writing is so subjective.
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It's really intriguing to me to read stuff from other authors and be, and rather only,
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yeah, this rings true for me or I could take something with us or be like, what are you
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talking about?
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Yeah.
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And also, something that we've said before and that does come up in this book and it's
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one of the things I like about it is I don't need to read this like pristine instructions
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on how to write a novel.
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I actually find it way more relatable when I'm, when someone's admitting that they find
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certain things hard or that things don't always go their way and like, we've been to talks
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on by writers before in the minute.
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One of them admits they didn't like the edit process or they struggle writing the thing
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I'm like, I don't like you.
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I don't like you.
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I don't like you.
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You're not so different than I do.
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So yeah, this is more like, it's a book on writing, but it's very personable, which I think
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for most people will go either way.
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She's got like a very strong personality and that comes across in the book.
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She writes in first person and she writes about her own life a lot.
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So if you got the book or if you were looking into the book because you just want cold
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hard facts about writing and how to be a better writer, I could see it going either way.
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You could indeed do yourself to her talking about, you know, being an awkward child and
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her father being a writer, which is important to note, her parents were both writers.
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I think that's an interesting thing to note.
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Or you might be like, I don't actually want to read this much about your life.
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I just wanted to know about writing.
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And I guess you could say that the two have overlapping.
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It's easier to have one with the other because you know who the information's coming from.
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But it's something that I struggle with at times with this book.
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So it's called Bird by Bird, Instructions on Writing and Life.
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So you kind of hint that it's going to be.
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And it's written by Anla Ma, and it was published, and I remember the day, 1994, same age
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as me.
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This book is the same age as me.
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I think it was me.
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My original Google said May 1994, so that's literally the same month and year as me.
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And as I said, like, it's been recommended to me.
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I think in two different writing workshops.
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And she is like an American novelist and nonfiction writer.
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And her first novel is about her father's life after he was diagnosed with brain cancer.
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And she references that in this book a lot.
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Also, like fun fact, she's in an episode of Midnight Gospel.
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I don't know if you've ever watched it.
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But a really cool Netflix show, which I recommend.
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It's just like this guy's conversations with really interesting people and he's animated
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them.
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Yeah, it's been on my list.
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Yeah, she's just in an episode of that.
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But yeah, I think her writing is very...
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...over certain time.
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Actually, I'll get to that in a sec.
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I guess we'll start with the book itself.
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It's titled After a Piece of Writing Advice that her dad once gave to her brother, which
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is...
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So I've got a whole bunch of quotes, like I said, I came with notes.
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So the first quote on the list, if you want my reading out, is about why it's called
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Bird by Bird.
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30 years ago, my older brother, who was 10 years old at the time, was trying to get a report
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on Bird's written that he'd had three months to write, which was due the next day.
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We were out at our family cabin in Belinas and he was at the kitchen table close to tears,
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surrounded by binder, paper and pencils and unopened books on birds, immobilized by the
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hugeness of the task I had.
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Then my father sat down beside him, but his arm around my brother's shoulder and said,
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Bird by Bird, buddy, just take it, bird by bird.
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Yeah, cute.
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It is, isn't it?
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So that's...
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It's kind of a running theme in the book is about trying not to get overwhelmed by the
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enormity of this book you want to write with characters that everyone's going to love
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and that's going to get published and it's going to prove everyone wrong.
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It's a lot more about focusing on little scenes, just one at a time, which is a nice way
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to look at.
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She talks about breaking things down and making the manageable later on, which is obviously
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something I can absolutely get on board with.
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Yeah, I'm very into that as a concept, because I think we've spoken about it extensively
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in the first few episodes of being very overwhelmed by the concept of a normal to the
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point where neither of us have been able to finish one and create an entire podcast
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for it.
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So, yeah, I'm definitely into that and I do think, yeah, just breaking anything down to
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step by step is so good and it's just worth reminding yourself, like as much as possible.
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Yeah, it's something that she talks about, because it's hard, also if you're getting
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excited about the concept for a book, it is hard not to be looking at something that's
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very far in the distance, like in real life months, if not years away.
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Yeah.
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And writing at that, rather than she suggests it a few times, and I think there's a bit
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about her talking about writing what you can see through a postage stamp or through a
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window or something like that, where it's basically what you need to write right now.
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So, you can just sit down and go, all that's going to happen right now, a two characters
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are going to sit down for dinner and they're going to talk about their day.
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And so, you're just breaking it down like that to make it more manageable, I guess.
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Just the scene, just characters, just a step.
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It's one of those hard things, because it's like the bigger picture is also what can motivate
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me sometimes.
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So, sometimes I'm like, if I don't have something to work towards, because I think like I love
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writing little scenes and I do that all the time, but then I'm like, when do I go from
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here, like I'm just, I'm stuck and like, it's connecting those like step by step with
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the bigger picture, I think, is something I always struggle with.
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That's a good point, because yeah, if you are just writing little bite-sized chunks and
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you want to think, it reminds me of them, you know, in the Simpsons episode where Homer
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has like, do it for her.
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I think it says like, don't forget your hair forever or something as well.
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Mr Burns has put on his wall, but then he covers it up with pictures of Maggie, because
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he has to go back to work, because Maggie was unexpectedly born, and then he covers up
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with pictures of her and it says, do it for her.
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I guess it's kind of like that, isn't it?
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It's like, obviously sit down and write the little bit you need to write now, but if
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you want to have the big crescendo ending you had in the back of your mind or the whole
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aesthetic, you know, I guess a Pinterest board is kind of like, do it for her.
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I'll do it for her equivalent.
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If you want to have that open at the same time to remind you that this is the overarching
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vibe and look and feel of the thing, whilst just writing about a character baking some bread.
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That seems like a good compromise.
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Yeah, striking a balance, being like, I'm just writing a little scene, but also being like,
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everything should be informed of where it's going and where it's come from or what it can be.
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Yeah, just also scary.
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It's all scary.
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Well, that's a whole horrible, and I hate it, maybe it's just like, whatever it gets.
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No, that's not what this is for.
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I love it. It's so fun.
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Why are you crying?
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I'm out of time, I've just cried writing, staring at a blank page or crying because I can't
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and it's too hard and I'm scared.
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Yeah, I cried because I can't and I cried because I can't.
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Yeah, just both.
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Yeah.
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I think one thing, before we, so I've got plenty of quotes that I found interesting from this book,
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I think one thing before we get into that is, as I said, this book was written in 1994.
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Right.
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I find that her writing style can be quite divisive and if I'm being totally honest,
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it didn't fully click with me, her style of writing and her sense of humour,
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just didn't really work for me and I can separate it to an extent.
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Yeah, I think obviously to a certain extent you have to forgive it for being of its time and
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allow yourself to maybe not be okay with some of the things she writes regardless of the fact
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that it was from a different time.
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I have provided examples of her writing style because I feel like, if you are someone who's
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listening to this specifically to be like, is this book for me and do I want to read it?
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I feel like this would be useful.
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So I've got two examples.
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One of them is just of how prescriptive her writing can be at times and she's very much like,
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so you do this and then you go over here and you do this and then maybe you go and do this thing
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and then you do it and it's very specific and I find sometimes specificity can make you
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feel really included because you're like, yes, this is a very singular experience that I'm also
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having. Sometimes I think it can work the other way and for me it worked the other way.
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And I know that she's doing it because that's her sense of humour is kind of writing but I don't
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know, if you want to read the second quote I think it illustrates her writing style quite well.
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I think this is one of the things where it's like, you really put, if it's anything that's very
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parsnassy-led is always going to be much more divisive and I'm doing that, it means for the people
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that get it, it really resonates more with them because it feels much more personal but you do risk
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alienating some people so it's quite helpful to see, am I going to get along with this personality
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I'm going to really sit with them for a while. Okay, there we go. So you sit there at your desk
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trying to see what the set looks like that your characters will be entering in a moment.
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Perhaps they have money and you don't, not of course, that you're bitter about this.
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You may need to call one of your friends or relatives who has or had a great deal of money
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in arson as tactfully as possible to help you design a house where some old gentry lived.
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By tactfully, I mean that you're not going to get the best possible information if you do not
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mention life on fairness and that your own house looks more like God's little acre with each passing
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day and that you may have to put the dog to sleep because you can't afford to feed her.
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Yes, it is very, you very much get an idea of like character through it but
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yeah, I don't have, I'm like instantly like, yeah, I'm in.
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Yeah, I think that's a time thing or whether it's like
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my humor's of the time now and it's probably like, I'm sure something I write every
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way I hate this is so cringey and like, yeah, 20 years time. Yeah, well actually in that case,
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we should go straight into the next quote because I think it really nails down the time which was
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written and the style that she's gone for. Just saying. All right, so you sit down approximately
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the same time every day. This is how you train your unconscious to kick in for you creatively.
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So you sit down at say nine every morning or 10 every night. You put a piece of paper in the
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typewriter or you turn on your computer and bring up the right file and then you stare at it for
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an hour or so. You begin rocking just a little at first and then like a huge autistic child.
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Yeah, yeah. I just thought it was important to include because
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there are a few jokes like that and again, I think you can simultaneously appreciate it for
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when it was written and also not like that, you know, not like that these jokes. You're in it. There's
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a few flippant comments about suicide as well which, just saying, not the biggest fan of those
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sorts of jokes. It's just unnecessary. It's just classic like, humor that's like hitting down.
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It's like, you got nothing better to say. Like, it's not, you're not having anything. You're literally
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just taking away at this point. Yeah. And I think it, like I said, is very personality led to this
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book. She talks about herself a lot and her own experiences a lot. And so more so than some other
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books, I would say if her personality grates on you or her style of writing or her sense of humor,
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you might struggle with this one a bit because it is baked in through out. And there's a lot of
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moments like those two, a lot of, so you sit down and you go over here and then you do this and
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perhaps you message your dad and ask him what he's had for lunch and perhaps he's had a
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bloney sandwich and then maybe you talk about and it's just like that for a while.
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You get to the side. Come on. Get to the useful things. Yeah, I think it's like, because
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sometimes I don't mind like, rambly kind of stream of consciousness. But if I'm, especially if I'm
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sitting down for a book where I'm trying to get information out of it, I'm kind of like, can we
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can we keep this tight, please? Like, you know, like I'm not here for like a long journey in a ride.
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And I guess maybe like that's what she's trying to offer and like, you pick up stuff along the way,
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but yeah, I can, I can, I can see, you know, even the like, distasteful jokes aside, I can see why
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you struggle to click with her because I'm not instantly like, yeah, I love this.
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Yeah, I guess this trick isn't it. It's like, if you're going to sit down, you're going to take
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the advice of someone. It does help if you, I'm not saying I don't like her, but it does help if
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you like and respect and can relate to this person. I guess just inherently like this part,
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she wrote this the year I was born. So it's fair to assume she's a fair but older than we are.
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She's writing from a different country, from a different background, from your background where
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she had right appearance for um, yeah. So yeah, and she has a very, I wouldn't say dark sense of
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humour. Just blunt. I guess the best way I can describe it and yeah, I guess this podcast could
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also help in the sense of if that didn't click with you and you kind of think, I don't know if I
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want to read her writing, I've picked up plenty of good quotes that aren't like that. I was going to say
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my find useful. So I am very glad you have because from like the vibes you gave me off at the
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beginning, you're like, oh, going step by step. I was like, yeah, like that sounds really helpful. I'd
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love to hear more about that now having the kind of the filler of what's going to be there. I'm like,
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I don't like the filler where I would just like to scrabble around and pull out a little bit. So
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yeah, and it is, that is throughout and it's baked in. It's not like, oh, I can just pick out the,
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I don't like olives, I'm just going to pick out the olives. No, the olives are under the cheese.
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They are baked into the crust even like they're there, you know, you can't do much about that.
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Except listen to this. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, I don't really want to read. Now,
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now that bits out the way and I feel like I've carried it. Yeah, that's helpful to me. I'll go back into the
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positive. One of my favourite chapters, she did quite short like bright-sized chapters. Yeah,
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and one of my favourites is quite early on and it's one that we very briefly talked about before
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we started recording and when it's very relevant to us right now, which is about shitty first drafts.
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Yeah, and it's something that increasingly as I, I mean, I'm not that far into my, into my
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shitty first draft, but it's something that I honestly need constant reminders of is, so the next
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quote on the little doc is about shitty first drafts and it's very reassuring in that sense if
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you wanted to look at that one. Okay, all writers write them. This is how they end up with good
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second drafts and terrific third drafts. People tend to look at successful writers, writers who are
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getting their books published and maybe even doing well financially and think that they sit down
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at their desks every morning, feeling like a million dollars, feeling great about who they are
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and how much talent they have and what a great story they have to tell that they've taken a few
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deep breaths, pushed back their sleeves, rolled their necks a few times to get all the cricks out and
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died in, typing fully formed passages as fast as a court reporter. But this is just the fantasy
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of the uninitiated. I know some very great writers, writers you love who write beautifully and
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have made a great deal of money and not one of them that sits down routinely feeling wildly
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enthusiastic and confident. Not one of them writes elegant first drafts. All right, one of them does,
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but we do not like her very much. Yeah, it's just one of the things that I can never hear too much.
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Is that this has to happen to get to the good versions of what I'm currently working on?
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Yeah, because it's like truly every writer, like it's struggling, you know, like some will struggle
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with different parts, like some people might be able to sit down right really quickly, but then
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things really hard, well like different stages, but yeah, we are all struggling and it's hard.
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And just being like, okay, it is hard, even though we know it's hard, you still have to do it,
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like we're still climbing up this mountain with the knowledge that it is a mountain.
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And we might find out as this process goes on that we actually struggle every step.
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We're one of the lucky ones who never finds any of it easy. I mean, I'm already writing the first
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draft looking forward to the fine tuning stuff, but it's just so hard to be like, no, leave it. Leave.
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They're like the thing you just, I remember, I mean, it seems so obvious now, but I remember doing
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the part you workshop where the part that was leading it was like, if you are the sole person to edit
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the line you just wrote, then you're going to get in a cycle where you never write the next line.
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And it just like goes on like add infinitum or whatever they say it, because you're never going to be
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like aesthetically happy with the thing that just came before. So you just have to keep going, but it's so hard.
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It's so hard to actually do it. One of the things I really have to tell myself as well,
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because I honestly thought this is true for me is that some of my best pros that I've crafted
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comes when I've just like let myself just start stream of consciousness getting it down. And like,
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once you get into a rhythm of like the story's flowing, that's when like some really nice
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like sentences come out. And if I sit there and I'm like, I've got to try and craft the best
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sentence, like that is not helping me craft my best work, even if it feels like that's what I'm doing.
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It's actually not like you will still write good stuff amongst all the other things if you just
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let yourself go, like the good is in there. And even if it's not, it can come later. You have to
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just come later. Just have to stop. You have to just keep going. Yeah. She also puts it so the next
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quite that I pulled. I just I like the angle that she's kind of looking at it from which is
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referring to it as like the child's draft, which is what the next question will. The first draft
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is the child's draft. We let it all pull out and then let it romp all over the place, knowing that
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no one is going to see it and that you can shape it later. You just let this child like part of
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you channel whatever voices and visions come through and onto the page. Yeah, I love that. It's like
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let it be wild and free and roam around and try things and put things in its mouth and stick its
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fingers and plucks. Yeah. That's so funny that you say that because I stayed at my partner's brothers
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place the weekend just gone. They have a six month old and so they have the like child safe
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things in plug sockets. I was trying to plug something in and came across it. I also kind of
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we were in a different country so the plugs look different. So I didn't necessarily know what I was
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looking at and I just stuck my fingers in because I was like I don't understand where the holes
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are. And my partner was just like did you just stick your fingers in the plug socket? I guess I'm
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the problem. I'm the reason these are needed. Yeah. Six month old hasn't tried it once. They're like oh
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shouldn't touch that like dangerous. Yeah. Maybe. I have one of my housemates putting like a fork in
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a toaster. Oh no. I was like that's stop it. That's lit. We're all told that and she was like it's
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fine. I was like it's not. Haven't you seen the cartoons where you you see their skeleton for a second
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last thing? Yeah. That's it's a cautionary tale. It's not just for fun. I love how there are all
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things that like we just have little blind spots about though even as adults are like they're
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so silly why do they do that? Yeah I feel like it's and it's somehow my parents job to still remind me
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like decades later. My mom loves I think I was like 16, 15, 16 making myself lunch and I just
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didn't know how to cook beans. I just had a nowhere I was like do you add water to them? Like what do
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you do you just put them? And my mom loves it. It's like her favourite. I've done so much of my life.
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I'm nearly 30. I've lived a lot. She loves being like Ellen Joan when you didn't know how to cook
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baked beans. I can see the delight in her eyes to be like I can ring the stuff again. Someone says
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something about beans. Oh my daughter Ellen don't know how to cook a bean. Yeah. The ripe
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age of 16. Well now when you publish a book I can't wait on the opening night to be like
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do not cook beans though did you? No yeah yeah. How this is a bit of a tangent but like
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I always like I know that my parents will want to read whatever I publish if I ever write something
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but it's also very hard not to like draw from personal experiences and like obviously drawing
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from negative experiences is really helpful and some of those things where I don't want to be like
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don't like look too closely. Yeah. It's fine. They don't take it personally. I mean it also depends
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how self-aware the people you're writing about are. Yeah. Because I feel like there's definitely
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some people in my life who I could write about and then they'd read that go oh that character
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was. It's so dark. And you like hate to them. Yeah. What do you think about that? Yeah. What do
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you say to them if you met them? I'm gonna sit with that for a minute. Yeah. Can you like take
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us to therapy? So I guess it depends if you're writing about a particularly self-aware person
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beware. Oh there is a very weird bit in this book right at the end where she basically talks
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about that she talks about rights like drawing from real life experiences and stuff but
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heard one of her pieces of advice which I assume is a joke. Okay. It comes right at the end of
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the book and sounds like why why end on the civil things. One of her pieces of advice is if you're
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I think her example is like an ex-husband or an ex-male partner to write that they have a small
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penis so that they won't ever try and like sue for libel because they're then being legally admitting
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they have a small penis. And I genuinely like I again I hopefully adjoke. Yeah. But that's in the book.
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It's right at the end of the book. You know what's so crazy I've that's the one piece from the book
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that has reached me. That's the one thing I've had somewhere and I don't know where but I'm like
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that's the one thing I'm like that's where it came from I see. Yeah. I don't know if it is a joke
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from the vibe I get from her you know. So if you do need to work through like your relationship with
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your dad just give him a small penis that's the answer. If I'm writing it's like a relationship
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with my dad and then the size of his penis comes up. I know I've gotten off somewhere something's
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gone very wrong somewhere. Yeah. Very bad. Jeez. Well the issue isn't that you chose to write
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about your dad in that scenario. Yeah does that answer your question about writing about people you know?
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Maybe. Yeah. I don't really think so but thank you though. I guess it's inevitable to like draw
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from real relationships. I think it's probably a difference as well between just a character being
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like for like your aunt and just being having qualities. Just a habit during from stuff. I think I
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don't do publish a book. I'm just going to put like a blanket statement out and be like look yes I
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mean I draw from things in real life that's my right. Everyone's done things the way they've
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done things you can do it about me as well just accept it. Yeah that's where it is. I don't want to talk
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about it. Yeah how in the front it feels like I've got any relation to people living with it.
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I feel like it's a dental and it's like but if it's not I'm salary. I'm salary. I'm not going to be.
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Yeah. I might have accidentally written you like for like I'm telling you. You might be the villain
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of this book but I'm salary dough. Yeah. I'm wittily so salary dough. Yeah. Wow I'm learning so much.
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I feel like actually does this take me into the like section. It kind of does. Love that's
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great segue. So something that I found particularly interesting which is something that I had
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like reaffirmed by a different author and an event I went to who was talking about characters just
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like channeling the characters that she writes about through her and they almost make their
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own decisions and they kind of they drive the narrative themselves and Lamont talks about that
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as well. I mean she's very clearly not a big plotter. Right. But I think obviously it's important
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to note that she doesn't write big sprawling fantasy novels. She writes she's more of like a memoirist
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a nonfiction writer a kind of literary fiction girlie and she does write books that are really
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personal and they're setting the real world and our character driven. So I think all of that is
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like important context but she does talk about like working character first and sort of trying
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of write to figure out who these people are and she does actually recommend basing them on people
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you know. Interesting. She's very much like don't force the narrative onto your characters or treat
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them like their pawns to get to a certain place. Yeah. But rather and again as you know I'm saying
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this this isn't going to work for a lot of people as a concept. I think they can take a little bit of
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it into what I'm doing but I very much like I have a plot in mind and it's and it's happening
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okay. It would be life it or not. It's a tricky one. And one of the things it's on the say
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because I could part of your group like yeah no I you especially someone who wants to write
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something quite character driven like yeah and I should let the plot to an extent be informed by
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the characters but at the same time part of the like part of the like thing that you should make
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a plot compelling is characters having to deal with stuff they don't want to deal with and like
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being forced into these situations and like sometimes that's that is how a story is going.
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And sometimes you want to you're there to tell a story less about the people in it you know. Yeah.
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I just have a source of subjective. Yeah it kind of works for me to an extent because
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I think I've said this on the podcast before I don't I don't know what my ending is going to be
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yet. And part of that is because it relies on the decision from a character that I haven't
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written enough to know fully yet. So I'm sort of acting on the faith that they will flesh
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themselves out or I will I guess as I go and then I'll get to a point where I'm like oh I know
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what decision they would make based on the scenario of putting them in because I get them a bit better
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now. But yeah I guess her angle is slightly different to that. I actually love that as a concept
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because I always re-stable be like how is it going to end but the idea of like getting up to a point
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where they have to make the big like final decision and then seeing how the character reacts
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actually such a good way to like have an end point without having a defined end point if you're
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not ready yet like I really love that. If you are really rigid with the beats of the story all the
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way up till the end I guess it doesn't leave much space for you to start writing this person and go
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actually yeah they've as I've been writing and they're coming out a lot more timid or brash
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or whatever than I thought they were going to be so maybe they wouldn't you know suddenly
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save the day maybe they actually wouldn't when it all comes down to it and then so I guess if
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you're super rigid with your plot you aren't leaving space for these for these characters to
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yeah fully realised. Then you are forcing the characters into the plot rather than letting them
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react to the situations you kind of put in front of them. A bit that in this book that seemed
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interesting and like particularly relevant to us too yeah um comes in a chapter called the moral
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point of view like were you recording when we started talking about this yeah the fact that we
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both write things and we don't finish them and that's where this podcast has come from. She has
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like an interesting take on that which is this quote. If you find that you start a number of stories
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or pieces that you don't ever bother finishing that you lose interest or faith in them along the
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way it may be that there is nothing at the centre about which you care passionately. You to put
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yourself at their centre you and what you believe to be true and right the core ethical concepts in
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which you most passionately believe are the language in which you're writing and to be a good writer
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you not only have to write a great deal but you have to care you do not have to have a complicated
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moral philosophy but a writer always tries I think to be part of the solution to understand a
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little about life and to pass this on yeah I really like that because I do I sort of take a while
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ago about like what is the theme of your book and it really resonated with me I was like I think yeah
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that is like what I struggle with a lot because I can write fun little bits and eventually I do get
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to the point where I'm like what is what is the point what am I trying to say what is the heart of
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this what's where I'm going with this and then because I don't know it's there's not an obvious
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answer and I freak out and I just don't know what heart to pick you know it's like I don't know
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what you need to know for and that it was always the stuff that you resonate with most is like
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yeah is the thing where you can see what the central like I so they're really saying this is
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a bit of a tangent but they're doing a new a quiet place film and so I was a ballgame cafe with
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some friends the other day and we got chatting about the first one I don't remember much about the
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second one if I'm honest but I absolutely loved the first one and not because it's like well crafted
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monsters or like tense like thrillery moments but because at its core it's just a story about a
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father trying to do his best and yeah having made like a big mistake and having to recover from
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that and still like and forgive himself and still try to show up for his children and that is what
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the story is it's core and I think yeah he was not saying this now I remember when I used to write
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poetry usually there was a point I was trying to make with each piece even if it was you know I was
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going it in a roundabout way I would usually write that at the top of the document so usually be like
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I'm trying to say that this isn't a real one but like I'm trying to say that big woman is hard and
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we need to be nicer to ourselves so maybe is a case of as part of our like do it for her
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Pinterest board moment maybe it is a case of saying the main points I want to hit home are that like
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don't give up on yourself even if other people don't believe in you or you know being a parent is
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hard cut yourself from slack you know maybe it's a case of having a few of those things that
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you really think are going to be baked in and that you really believe and want to stand for
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like she says it doesn't have to be like a political stance or anything it could just be
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something is easy to agree with as you know believe in yourself but maybe maybe it is a case of just
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having that there I think it honestly really harks back it's like you know when you're first learning
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to like write essays at school and they're like every time you're not sure look at the title again
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and like remember what you're trying to say and I honestly feel that so strongly every time I get
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lost I'm like I need a strong thing to look back at and be like what am I saying like where am I at
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like it's like I like I do like I write like scripts for YouTube videos where I'm like trying to
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talk about stuff and like every time I'm like what am I going to say I'm like okay like what's the
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title of this video oh okay yeah that's what like whatever I'm saying has to all draw back to that
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and like you know I can go up and fangions but eventually as soon as I get lost I can go back
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there and I think that's very much like what I need like I need a title there's not a title of
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book it's just like my essay title that I can go back to and just keep linking to and everything can
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hit too that's so hard though because themes are so like big yeah and I guess they can change like
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if we are going off of band's theory of letting the characters sort of drive the plot
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you might find yourself she has this nice analogy of of writing being like taking a polaroid where
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you're so she I can't even look at specific and agios but you're taking a polaroid for example of
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an old building yeah and then it isn't until the picture develops that you also see just off
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to the right is a woman in a green dress and that kind of catches your attention and then to the
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left I was like a dog that you know like always the owner I guess it's like that it's you think
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that what you were taking a photo of was the building and then what comes out is like actually
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that woman's way more compelling in this shot than the building is and I really want to know who
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the dog's owner is like let's yeah I'm focusing on that more than the thing I thought I was taking a photo
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of originally which is simultaneously comforting to be like your plot can go wherever you want to go
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and also I but I need to stretch it to live where am I going I always think back to um this quote from
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friends where Monica says like rules help control the fun and I'm like it's too new there yeah I
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need to know the bounds of this thing are and if it up to me it's like what why have you put me in
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charge of the limitations of this novel that's that's why haven't you given me the keys I can't
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I can't I the amount of time is a way I feel like I'd be a great ghost writer because I'm like I'm
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like I'm doing my assignment yeah I can do it I'm great writing assignments like I love
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essay writing and really good at that someone give me my topic my title yeah I suppose also you don't
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have to be answering questions you can just be posing them and you don't actually have to have
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like a I remember um years ago I was doing film studies at college and we went to the London Film
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Festival as part of our course and the director your gospel and theme was you just you did poor
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things that just came out oh yeah um he was sharing one of his earlier films when he was still doing
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them in his native language and it's about these people who offer a service where if you've had a
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loved one who's died they will you can pay them and they will act like that loved one that you've
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lost and I remember afterwards he came out and was doing like a Q&A and someone asked him like who
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do you think are the sort of the crazy one so to speak or who do you think's in the wrong the
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people providing the service or the people who ask for that service yeah and I remember him just
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looking at the guy and being like that's what I'm asking you and he wouldn't answer the question
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and I think that's interesting in a sense of like I have some questions I want to put out there
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I don't really want to answer them in a sense and partly because I don't know the answer myself
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the question because if you do the answer that is much more like moralizing me like this is the moral
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of the story like you have to learn something and take away what this is right and wrong but like
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quite more often than not it's like I feel the way I feel about a lot of strong stuff is like I don't
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know like I have a lot of thoughts and feelings and they go back and forth and like I'm not sure I
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don't have a definitive yes or no things are great and yeah like letting people and it is
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interesting looking at stuff from both sides sometimes and being like yeah where that's explored
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both and see where the reader ends up to either because you've influenced them or because
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you've influenced them against it oh god there's a lot to think about we're writing books in there
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I'm gone there is it's hard obviously I've covered the fact that she kind of ends the final
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chapters essentially about libel yeah and about how to write about people and not get caught which
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I'm sure is her way of saying like it's important to draw on real life experiences right about
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real people I'm sure she's just being tongue in cheek by saying yeah right about someone
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give them an embarrassing quirk that they don't have in real life so you don't get caught I'm sure
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that's just like a funny and I will like reiterate I've pulled quotes that I found useful but this
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book is very biographical at times she also something I didn't think I mentioned earlier she talks
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a lot about her students I assume she teaches at university or college she talks a lot about her
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students and she kind of she rags on them a bit and kind of uses them as a universal example for
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the stupid questions people ask right so like I said she's very oh this will happen and then so
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we'll say this and then maybe you go and do this yeah there's a few moments where she uses them
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to hammer home a point so there's a bit about um how fixated her students get on publishing and so
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it's the example is something like one of the puts the hand up and says how do we find an agent
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and then she tries to talk about inspiration and how to write a blah blah blah and then someone
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asks puts the hand up and it's like yeah but how do we get an agent though and it's very much like
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that she kind of uses them as this like not scapegoat but as this example of one not to think about
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and also that just made me think I don't think we need to hammer home the how unlikely it is that
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we will get published I really don't think we need to talk about that anymore like we are not
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I for one I don't think there's ever uh if you're if your sole motivating factor is
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getting a book published and being famous I don't think that's wrong it's not what motivates me
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yeah but like go off if if the reason you're writing a book is because you want it to sell a
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million cut there are writers who have probably written for that exact reason realistically the
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publishing industry is like any industry which is like it's very led by marketing and themes and
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trends and a lot and some of the successor writers are just very good at like knowing what's popular
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shining something out and getting it published like that is part of the publishing industry like
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they're you know like pointless celebrity memoirs some of them are like good and important some of
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them are just like this is a way to make money and like I know a lot of it really annoyed by that
spk_0
but it's like driving these sales supports the entire publishing industry like it's all in
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person and like this guys need to make money if it's an easy win it's an easy win like take the easy
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win and then gamble on the harder ones yeah with all the money you're rolling in yeah that is
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writing for some people like that is that is gonna be it for some people but and also like I do
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feel like you do have to be like a little do Lulu to like want to do this you know like you have to
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be a little delusional to be able to sit down and waste hundreds of hours on a project you like
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have to have like some kind of delusional feeling of like some goal in mind you know what yeah that's
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maybe good and fine yeah and also this book I like to listen to uh could just break up which
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is like a love and relationship kind of advice podcast yeah they always they answered the thing
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recently where someone was like is it wrong to get your hopes up about uh like a romantic
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interest so you're just like doing someone is it wrong should you avoid getting your hopes up
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about them and they were like getting your hopes up isn't what hurts you it's you know yeah
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person letting you down is what hurts you exactly don't what you don't not get your hopes up
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because you think something will hurt less as I like one of my biggest motivators when I'm in a writing
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slump is reading a book I don't think is very good and being like I can write something better and
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then we're like okay then do it because it's like this got published and obviously not everything
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gets published is that doesn't necessarily mean it's good it might just mean it's sellable
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as we've just asked but like it means like to a certain extent like people respect it and
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that like there's a want for it so I'm like yeah it's actually really helpful to be like maybe I could
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and that's actually sometimes a really motivating factor if you like yeah maybe they're like could be
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something beyond it not just for a personal achievement like they could be like something and
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achievement beyond that rather than completely internal one like they could be an external like
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achievement I get idealistic sort of pureest vision of you need to write because you like you can't
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do anything else and it's the story that only you could tell and you had to get it out and that's
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lovely I think doing the thing is more important in some instances than the reason you're doing
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the thing I'm trying to sound that out and be like do I fully believe that I think like if you're
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writing a book because someone what's told you you couldn't and you're doing out spike like yeah
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still doing the thing well done like I didn't know that bad people get to a finished novel in many
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different ways and it kind of is about working out how that's how it what is going to make you finish
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it you know like again that's what's put us this for us is like what is going to make me finish this
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and like for some people it's going to be like the thought of being able to go to like water
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stones and see a book on a shelf like that is that was like a huge motivator for a lot of people
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that doesn't somehow like it's just a classic moralizing of creativity and being like if you want
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to somehow make it a job or have any success or like desire that then it's so much worse and someone
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who's just like tortured and writing because it just happened in the words out and then it just
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happens to be discovered and it just happens to be taken because it's amazing and they didn't even
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want the fame and even want it but that isn't somehow better than someone that did want it and it's
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and is aware of the fact that they want that you know like I do you think the idea is like
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a teacher walking into a classroom of creative writing students and saying out of 100 of you
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only three of you are going to get published I don't need two of you are ever going to be able to
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make a living off it but I'd like to like weed out the people who are somehow doing it for the
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wrong reason but you've now decided yourself what the right reason to be doing this is and that's very
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like it's just quite exclusionary and it's like who you to say what the reason is that you should
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be writing and like a very anxious person and I have a lot of self-confidence issues and one of my
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biggest blockers for writing is just lack of self-belief so I really do not get motivated by people
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saying that and like I'm like no like I just make me fight harder or just make me work harder I'm
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just like yeah you know I should give up you're right like I I don't work well with that and I just
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I don't feel like that's valuable like it is for some people clearly but like I've I've had
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teachers that like have that kind of mindset that it's like hard they'll just make them work harder
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and it's just like made me completely crumble and like be really upset and like I remember doing like
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I ate a level language like I did English literature and language and language like well my teachers
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was really like negative about everything I was doing and like I just remember like breaking down
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in this like we had like two language teachers I broke down the other teachers class just like
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crying and stuff and then she was like what's going on I was like just like everything I'm doing
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is terribly all of this and she was like no it's not like you're on like part to get an A
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and I was like what and I was just like I just don't understand like I just didn't work well
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like that even though I was doing good work like having the kind of like negative reinforce
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like I just don't work for everyone so like don't do that yeah and just like I don't
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really think you're doing most people are favor by pointing out the
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uh unlikely heard that you will like I remember I think it's Neil Gaiman I'm worried about saying
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it now in case it wasn't him I feel like it I think it's Neil Gaiman but there's I've read something
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I know the recently he's just talking about finishing the thing is the hardest part it's harder
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than getting publishers hard on finding agent finishing a novel and just talking about what an
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achievement that is and I feel like that's the energy I want is like like celebratory rafiathan
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yeah the odds the odds that any one other than like you and your mum are going to read it is
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it's like one percent I don't need the percentages I don't need the ratios I don't need the like
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which reminds me of I've seen the movie wit plash yes I don't need the fucking wit plash treatment
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I don't need someone to like beat it into me like just be nice just be nice to me about it
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just be kind and use our nice words to each other yeah let's use our inside voices
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yeah it could be nice I have I have pulled one last quote which I feel like she does like I said
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after talking about libel she does around it often a nice way and I so I pulled a quote from that
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bit rather than the small penis section um really nice that's what a cool amount to crush the small
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penis section um I pulled a quote from the actual end which I thought it was like a nice one to end
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on rafiathan all right even if only the people in your writing group read your memoirs or stories
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or novel even if you only wrote your story so that one day your children would know what life
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is like when you're a child and you do the name of every dog in town still to have written your
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version is an honorable thing to have done against all odds you have put it down on paper so that
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it won't be lost and who knows maybe what you've written will help others will be a small part of
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the solution you don't even have to know how or in what way but if you're writing the clearest
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truest words you can find and doing the best you can't understand and communicate this was shine
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on paper like it's own little lighthouse lighthouses don't go running all over an island looking
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for boats to save they just stand there shining that's nice that's that's so nice it's interesting
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because like that always undermines some of the stuff that she has said earlier yeah with the kind of
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like ragging on her students a little bit and stuff and just being like just yeah like the whole
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point is just to write something like just have a go and like create something and hopefully have
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something at the end of to look at and be proud and be like yeah I did that I made that I wrote an
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entire book that's a very good achievement no matter what you do with it yeah that's all
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that's the all we really want at the end of the day regardless of what is motivating you to do it
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I just want to print out a stack of paper that's big and weighty in my hands and just be like all
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of these words are mine yeah just mine then you can't have the word no just slap someone's hand
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on they get close it's my words I crafted these just for me just for me no one's gonna take a
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little peep and you go oh these are good words oh god yeah you wish you could see them these words
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and who yeah god god I would hate to not be able to see in this book oh there are some home
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treats and they'll let me tell you but get away don't come near me stay back
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and there we have it if you enjoyed this episode don't forget to follow and leave us a rating
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and review you can follow us for more lazy bookish things on TikTok and Instagram under lazy
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girls writing club feel free to drop us a DM on there with any writing tips exercises or book
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recommendations we would love to hear from you thank you so much for listening and we'll see you in
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the next chapter
Topics Covered
aspiring writer tips
Lazy Girls Writing Club
writing inspiration
Bird by Bird book review
Anne Lamott writing advice
overcoming writing challenges
writing process insights
nonfiction writing books
writing routines
personal writing experiences
managing writing overwhelm
creative writing tips
writing community discussions
nuggets of writing wisdom
writing motivation