Biomimicry in Architecture with Michael Pawlyn

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello and welcome to Learning from Nature, the Biomimicry podcast with me, your host,

spk_0 Lily Irman.

spk_0 In this episode, I'm joined by a world renowned biomimic who I have admired for many years.

spk_0 He is a mentor in this space for so many people and it was an honor having a conversation

spk_0 with him.

spk_0 Especially in today's world, we need to not only envision a life-friendly future, but

spk_0 we need to begin building and strengthening the pathways to real systems change.

spk_0 We will explore some big questions in this discussion that I hope inspires folks to

spk_0 imagine what could be and help make it happen.

spk_0 Michael Paulin is an architect, writer and public speaker.

spk_0 He has been described as an expert in regenerative design and biomimicry.

spk_0 He established his firm Exploration Architecture in 2007 to focus on high performance buildings

spk_0 and solutions for the circular economy.

spk_0 The company has developed a groundbreaking office project in ultra-low energy data center,

spk_0 a zero waste textiles factory and progressive solutions for green cities.

spk_0 He has written two books, Flourish, Design Parodyms for our planetary emergency, co-authored

spk_0 with Sarah Ichoca and Biomimicry in Architecture, which is the publisher's best-selling title

spk_0 of the last 15 years.

spk_0 In 2019, he jointly initiated Architects DeClair, a climate and biodiversity emergency,

spk_0 a global call to action which has spread to 28 countries with over 8,000 firms signed up.

spk_0 His work has been featured in the Financial Times, National Geographic, the Economist,

spk_0 Wired and the Guardian, as well as in a number of design magazines.

spk_0 His television and radio appearances include Animal Einstein's on BBC Television, and

spk_0 a number of programs on BBC Radio 4.

spk_0 In recent years, he has been increasingly advising companies and national governments

spk_0 on how to make the shift from sustainable to regenerative ways of operating.

spk_0 So without further ado, let's hop on in.

spk_0 Happy to have you here chatting with me, Michael, and I'd love for you to introduce yourself,

spk_0 and then maybe jump right into how you found out about Biomimicry and how you found yourself

spk_0 in this field.

spk_0 Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I've listened to lots of episodes and

spk_0 really enjoyed them, particularly the ones about Knowledge Symbiosis, actually.

spk_0 I think that's a really interesting initiative.

spk_0 Anyway, I'm Michael Paulin. I'm an architect, writer and speaker.

spk_0 As a teenager, I was passionate about three things, design biology and the environment.

spk_0 And I thought about studying biology at the university, but I couldn't quite see the creative side,

spk_0 so I went to study architecture.

spk_0 And then when I was 30, I had an opportunity to join Grimshaw to work on the Eden project,

spk_0 which is this massive botanical visitor attraction in the southwest of England.

spk_0 The team was really interested in Biomimicry and I learned a huge amount from that.

spk_0 And then shortly after that project was finished, I had an amazing five days down at Schumacher

spk_0 College. It was a course that was led by Jeanine Benusen and Avery Lovins, and it was absolutely

spk_0 transformative. And that's when I really appreciate it, just how much depth and breadth there is

spk_0 to Biomimicry as a discipline. Because I think most architects have heard about bits of Biomimicry,

spk_0 spiders, webs and termite mouths and so on. But that's a tendency to be about it, or at least it

spk_0 was when I studied that week with Jeanine and Avery, it blew my mind really, and maybe realized

spk_0 it just wasn't an amazing subject to tears. And also how I could bring together those

spk_0 three strands of things that I was passionate about. And then after 10 years with Grimshaw,

spk_0 I decided to start my own company, so I could focus exclusively on Biomimicry. And that was in 2007.

spk_0 And then since 2018, I've been framing it more within the shift from sustainable to regenerative,

spk_0 which I think has a kind of broader appeal. And I'm absolutely convinced that Biomimicry has a

spk_0 huge contribution to make to regenerative design. Yeah, I'd also like for you to provide your

spk_0 definition of Biomimicry. Everyone has such different definitions. I mean, there's like this core

spk_0 tenet rate, but I'd love for you to share how you define it. So I've just finished writing the

spk_0 third edition of my book, Biomimicry and Architecture. And this time, I've tried to make a more transformative

spk_0 case for Biomimicry. And so I'm using a definition which comes indirectly from Daniel Christian

spk_0 Val. I mean, I've changed it very slightly, but he said that Biomimicry at its best is designing

spk_0 as nature. And I think that conveys very effectively the opportunity that Biomimicry presents,

spk_0 so to really synergize our activities as humans with the rest of the living world.

spk_0 Yeah, and I love how in this new version of the book, you really dive into that. I feel like

spk_0 everyone needs to read this. Not only architects, but everybody. And something that I really noticed

spk_0 early on was this aligning to nature. So how do we align to nature? And what does it look like for

spk_0 humans to align with the rest of nature as this kind of core piece of Biomimicry?

spk_0 I just mentioned how I wanted to make a more transformative case. And that's partly because I

spk_0 feel that outside the field, people have heard about the kind of common examples of Biomimicry,

spk_0 like the train nose cone and I'm going to two others. And you know, those are absolutely valid

spk_0 and they delivered performance benefits. But I think a lot of people within the field can see the

spk_0 more systemic possibilities, the potential to rethink our relationship with the rest of the

spk_0 living world and how we live and build. And there's been a very significant shift at

spk_0 least in the UK and elsewhere, I'm sure, from a paradigm of sustainability towards

spk_0 regenerative culture. And I think there's a growing consensus that the ultimate aim is to get to the

spk_0 point where we are participating and co-evolving as nature. So far, a lot of the work that I see in

spk_0 regenerative design is rather incremental. I mean, it's good work. It's often as people who are at

spk_0 that kind of neutral axis on the bill read diagram of trying to get above the point of just mitigating

spk_0 negatives into the realm of optimizing positives. And I think it's really important that we have in mind

spk_0 where we ultimately want to get to. And I believe that's to get to the point where we've learned

spk_0 to integrate everything we do as humans into the web of life. And thinking particularly about the

spk_0 built environment, Biomimicryton really help us rethink things from first principles. And that

spk_0 starts with an understanding of living systems and that in turn leads to various conclusions about

spk_0 the kind of materials we should be using or not using. And Jeanine has made the point that 96%

spk_0 of our living matter is made from just four elements. And of course, we use just about every element,

spk_0 which, you know, including some that are actually crazy, you know, like Mercury and so on.

spk_0 Developing an understanding of living systems also leads to the conclusion that long-term toxins

spk_0 are just completely incompatible. So we need to completely design them out. And then from that

spk_0 understanding of systems, we can then learn from biological adaptations, how to assemble those

spk_0 materials into efficient, beautiful structures, and how to manage light and water and energy in much

spk_0 more ingenious ways. And in this edition, Frey Matthews, that environmental philosophies has been

spk_0 a really big influence. In one of her essays, she mentions a passage from Cradle to Cradle by

spk_0 Browncars, where they suggest, okay, just imagine you are the manufacturer of a Hedgell, what you

spk_0 should do is you should think about the river that that Hedgell will end up in. And ask yourself,

spk_0 what does the river want from the Hedgell? And Frey Matthews suggests that's along the right lines,

spk_0 but it doesn't go anywhere near far enough. And what we should be asking is, what does the river

spk_0 want us to desire in the first case? What does nature want us to desire? And I think that could prove

spk_0 to be one of the most fertile provocations in 21st century design. It makes you realize just how

spk_0 kind of human supremacist we've been about architecture. And all of a sudden it makes some of the

spk_0 the best modernist buildings like monuments to arrogance, really. And I think Frey Matthews

spk_0 is absolutely onto something there and really captures just how far it is that we need to go

spk_0 to properly align with life. I think that statement beautifully sums up so much about

spk_0 biomemically and reconnection. The what does nature want from this design, right? It connects us

spk_0 to nature because we want something from the design. The outside world hopefully will benefit from

spk_0 the design or at least not be harmed by the design. It's such a clear explanation of that. I love that.

spk_0 And you mentioned connectivity and pathways of least resistance. I'm curious if we can touch on that

spk_0 as a pathway to applying deeper biomemically. You mentioned kind of these common examples.

spk_0 I feel like in the education space, people hear about biomemically they get excited about it. They

spk_0 take little pieces and they apply it in different ways. Some really meaningful and some just kind of

spk_0 surface level, which is a great start. But how do we how do we push past that into like you mentioned

spk_0 this systems level rethinking? I think biomemically can facilitate a complete kind of rethinking of

spk_0 how we relate to the rest of the living world. And the reason I've picked up on Freyermathia's

spk_0 particularly is because I think those two principles of connectivity and least resistance

spk_0 are really useful. She describes those in an essay called a deeper philosophy of biomemically.

spk_0 As she describes it, connectivity is the impulse towards self existence and self-increase,

spk_0 which is a characteristic of all living beings. And then the second principle of least

spk_0 resistance refers to the tendency to pursue connectivity in ways that minimize expenditure of

spk_0 effort or provoke least resistance from the rest of the system. And you can see that in mature

spk_0 ecosystems in a really beautiful way. And I think it also points to a really positive

spk_0 vision of how we could rethink our relationship with the rest of the living world. And that's

spk_0 the realm of indigenous knowledge. And the fact that there are numerous examples of places that

spk_0 have been inhabited by indigenous peoples. And those places have a higher level of biodiversity

spk_0 than places where people have been absent. So that shows that humans are capable of being a

spk_0 responsible keystone species. And to use Freyermathia's terms, in those cases, those humans have engaged

spk_0 with the connectivity of the system and made themselves a part of it. They've kind of woven themselves

spk_0 into it. And it is a seemingly, I think, simple approach, but it's really difficult to do well.

spk_0 And I think that's where our current systems are failing us. And so I'd love to dive into

spk_0 some of the listeners might be familiar with systems thinking and leverage points. If you want to

spk_0 give a quick summary of leverage points and then really share like what are some leverage points

spk_0 in the current built environment system for that radical change that we need?

spk_0 Yes. So I'm guessing you're referring to tunnel to an element of this leverage points.

spk_0 So yeah. And you mentioned it in this edition of the book, which is a really great connection to

spk_0 so many other things you discuss. And it's a huge topic. And we don't need to get into it too much,

spk_0 but just a brief summary to get us, yeah, started.

spk_0 Yeah, sure. Sure. And actually that essay was a really important part of the major shift in

spk_0 thinking that I had in 2018. So after the intergovernmental panel on climate change issued their

spk_0 report showing that things were far worse than we had previously thought. And we only have a fairly

spk_0 narrow window of time to address this. I reread to them about those essay leverage points. And that

spk_0 led me to embark on two new collaborations. So one was architects to clear a climate and biodiversity

spk_0 emergency, which is this kind of global call to action. And the other was a book flourish that I

spk_0 wrote with Sarah E. Geoca. And so both of those were based on tunneling with those ideas. And in

spk_0 that essay, she makes the case that very often when we're trying to bring about change, we intervene in

spk_0 the wrong places. And she sets out a list of places to intervene in the system in order of significance.

spk_0 And the most significant way to intervene is at the paradigm level. And by paradigm, she means that

spk_0 that the sort of mindset or world view commonly held across a large section of society, which to a

spk_0 large extent determines how that society or system, if you like, operates. That's partly why or

spk_0 substantially why I've been making the case for this shift from sustainable to regenerative.

spk_0 Because I think it had become clear that 30 years of sustainable design just had not got us

spk_0 anywhere near to where we needed to be. And in flourish, Sarah and I really set out to try and

spk_0 describe the difference between sustainable and regenerative, both at a philosophical level and

spk_0 also in a sort of practical way, describing what that means, what we did actually look like in our

spk_0 cities and buildings. And the world has a long way to go, I fear. And there's an excitement here

spk_0 of transitioning from sustainable to regenerative, even in an academic sense, I teach an undergrad class

spk_0 and I feel like universities are finally getting sustainability programs. And part of me is like,

spk_0 we are 30 years ahead of that. Now we need something new and something radical that prepares people

spk_0 to design not just for less bad, but how do we create systems that encourage positive feedback?

spk_0 So I think there's some frustration there because I want us to get there and I can see that we can

spk_0 get there. But I guess a personal question that I have is, do you think we can do it in time?

spk_0 And maybe there's a better way to phrase this, but I think a lot of people are wondering this right

spk_0 now, like, what is this massive challenge we have, right, to live regeneratively in harmony with

spk_0 nature? Seems so intuitive to the biomimics in the world and indigenous folks and so many folks

spk_0 are connected to nature. And it still seems so far from where we can get. And yeah, I guess,

spk_0 do you think we can do it? Well, it's so much depends. And I'm increasingly coming to the view

spk_0 that actually we need an epochal shift, a equivalent to the level of change in thinking that occurred

spk_0 during the scientific revolution. And although that might sound like a really grand and in some

spk_0 ways kind of unachievable idea, when you look back at how epochal shifts have occurred in the past,

spk_0 it seems that they generally occur when enough people lose faith in the narrative,

spk_0 sort of dominated up to that point and become sufficiently persuaded by the emerging narratives

spk_0 of the new epoch. And I feel we're very much there in many ways. You know, there are very few

spk_0 people who still believe that sustainability based on just being a bit less bad is going to get us

spk_0 there. I'm old enough to remember the kind of campaigns in the 80s and 90s for conscious

spk_0 consumerism saving the planet. And it's clear that that, while it has a part to play, there's no

spk_0 way that by itself is going to be enough. I think increasingly people are seeing that health

spk_0 needs to be considered in a broader sense in terms of planetary health. So our health and

spk_0 well-being as humans is inseparable from the well-being of the systems on which we depend.

spk_0 I think a lot of people have lost faith in the idea of environmental economics where we try and

spk_0 essentially reconcile nature with capitalism and put a price on nature. And it's really encouraging

spk_0 to see ecological economics in the form of like donor economics and others really gaining ground.

spk_0 So I think we could get there or all the solutions we need exist. And I think one of the big

spk_0 transformations that we still need really is in our ideas of agency, in our ideas about our

spk_0 capacity to influence. And I think particularly of people in senior positions, the more senior,

spk_0 you are the more influence you have. And yet I still meet CEOs who say, well, what can I do?

spk_0 And I have to get the shareholders on board. And some of them usually tell me about a mayor who

spk_0 said, well, what can I do? I'm only the mayor. And the problem with that kind of agency minimization

spk_0 is it's contagious. It tacitly permits other people to minimise their agency as well. But the

spk_0 positive thing is that if you flip that and if we all strive to maximise our agency, that could

spk_0 have a positively contagious effect on others. And what we really need is this kind of rolling wave

spk_0 of agency maximisation all the way up to international levels. Yeah. And really a lot of folks and

spk_0 organisations tapping into those leverage points. And kind of, yeah, I'm thinking like lever, it

spk_0 makes it easier to lift a car. And that lever is like, okay, we can shift this really heavy system

spk_0 if we know where to enter and what tools to use. I think you could also trace a kind of arc in

spk_0 business attitudes to the environment. So in the early stages, it was considered enough to have a

spk_0 kind of energy efficiency policy. And then there was an expectation there would be policies on

spk_0 ethical sourcing and then policies on diversity and then a policy on net zero. And I think where it

spk_0 needs to go next is that all companies need to have a deep purpose aligned with life and a theory

spk_0 of change for how to bring that about. And the reason that the theory of change part is important

spk_0 is because by going through that process, it's almost inevitable that those companies would find

spk_0 that some of the changes that need to happen are outside their currently perceived sphere of

spk_0 influence. And what they need to do is actually collaborate sometimes with their competitors,

spk_0 sometimes with various levels of government to bring about the conditions that allow them to

spk_0 still compete in commercial terms, but to do that within the limits of planet Earth. No easy

spk_0 task, but I think we're up to it. And I also remind myself that we spent most of Western

spk_0 society spent many hundreds of years extracting from and destroying the ecosystems around us

spk_0 and nature. And only in the last 50, 75 have we really woken up to this. And so we have, yes,

spk_0 we have a lot shorter of a timeline to get it done. But we also we've been doing it for less time

spk_0 and we've made so much progress in that time. That's what gives me hope as well. So bringing us down

spk_0 a little bit more into the tangible. I'd love to hear you share some examples of how buildings

spk_0 or maybe even cities as a whole kind of embody biomemically or ecosystem principles. Like,

spk_0 what does that look like? Are people doing it? What are some stories of success?

spk_0 Yeah. Well, this time round, I completely restructured the book so that I could start with systems

spk_0 because I think they're so really fundamental. And I'm also a big fan of projects that have applied

spk_0 ecosystem principles. And there are some quite old and familiar ones like, you know,

spk_0 Kellenborg in Denmark. And then there's the Tumabruhri that started off just producing brewery

spk_0 on a lot of waste. And then by integrating lots of other productive systems managed to find

spk_0 synergies and ways of transforming waste into value. And the one I really like is one that was

spk_0 done in the North of England called the Cardboard to Kavir project. And it started with this kind of

spk_0 alchemical loop because what he did is he managed to transform cardboard very low-value material

spk_0 into a high-value material. And the way he did that was that he worked with people with disabilities

spk_0 collecting cardboard from shops and restaurants, shredding it, selling it to a quest room centers

spk_0 as horse bedding. They were then paid to collect the manure and cardboard. They put it into

spk_0 wormery cop-masting systems which produced lots of worms which they fed to Siberian sturgeon,

spk_0 which produced Kavir which they sold back to the restaurant. And then I invited myself up,

spk_0 I think this was running, this was running, I was writing the first edition. I invited myself up

spk_0 to meet grandma's, the guy who said it at the top. And in many ways the more involved story was

spk_0 even more interesting because he kept on adding to it. Anytime he looked at something that was

spk_0 kind of leaking out of the system or anything that he found he had to buy in, he thought that was

spk_0 an opportunity to add something within his system. And so they found that the fish weren't putting

spk_0 on enough weight in winter because the water was too cold. And by this point he'd been given a

spk_0 bit of industrial land next to a water stream of facility and as much treated fertiliser sludge

spk_0 as he wanted. So they planted willow biomass, which fed a little biomass boiler which kept the fish

spk_0 happy in winter. And then he started working with teenagers on drug rehab programs,

spk_0 growing vegetables to make fish food to supplement the worms and actually these teenagers ate

spk_0 most of the vegetables. But in many ways that was a good thing because they were learning about

spk_0 healthy racing. So that was fine. And then they, well also those those teenagers were actually

spk_0 on very expensive rehab programs. They were nearly £100,000 per addict per year with a very high

spk_0 failure rate. And Graham has achieved an 80% success rate at getting them off drugs and into

spk_0 something much more productive for a fraction of an absolute fraction of that money. The next thing

spk_0 was that they restored more industrial land. They planted orchards that that was producing fruit.

spk_0 There was another thing to sell to the Wow. Chops and restaurants. They redesigned the water

spk_0 treatment for the fish. So using suspended tanks of watercress, a salad crop, that would take out

spk_0 the excess nitrous and phosphates and then that water could go back into the fish tanks and the

spk_0 watercress could be sold. Then he heard that there was a bakery nearby that was chucking away quite a

spk_0 lot of moody bread each week and apparently you can raise maggots on moody bread with another

spk_0 of the smells of meat-based production. And he just kept on adding to the system and there was

spk_0 a real sense in which the more it grew, the more the number of possibilities increased.

spk_0 Just like an ecosystem that becomes more and more diverse and rich over time. And what I love about

spk_0 that project is that he applied nearly all the principles of ecosystems. And in my book, I contrast

spk_0 the conventional characteristics of human-made systems with those of ecosystems. I think it's also

spk_0 amazing just how inventive he was with waste. All sorts of waste, including what is arguably the

spk_0 most deplorable form of waste, which is underutilized human resources. You managed to reintegrate

spk_0 often marginalised groups into this regenerative scheme. It happened amazing positive impacts on

spk_0 this industrial land. It became a haven for biodiversity. And I think it also points to a new economic

spk_0 model. So in our conventional economic model, physical and financial resources are mobilised and they

spk_0 flow very quickly through our communities and the up as waste and for the money, I'll offer

spk_0 all of that and the up in the hands of very big companies. But with this model based on the

spk_0 Cardboard Caviar project, you can see the potential for those resources to do multiple cycles,

spk_0 delivering far more value and providing a whole new sector of our economy potentially. It's the

spk_0 equivalent of the detritive laws in living systems. So it's the repairs, the recyclers and so on.

spk_0 And I also talk about how a group at Georgia Tech, led by Mark Weisberg, have taken some of these

spk_0 principles even further by applying scientific principles that are used to study real ecosystems.

spk_0 And they compared real ecosystems with some of these eco-industrial parks as they're sometimes

spk_0 called where you get a clustering of industries that share their waste and so on. And they found

spk_0 some really interesting opportunities to take that even further by applying deeper scientific

spk_0 principles. Now the built environment example that comes closest to this so far, I think, is

spk_0 Hammabee Seostat, which is an extension to the city of Stockholm in Sweden.

spk_0 And during the early stages of the project, they actually got the major utility companies,

spk_0 the energy water waste companies, so to all cooperate in the master planning of this scheme.

spk_0 And although it's not perfect, I think it shows a great potential for how much further we can go.

spk_0 Because I really do think that this idea of ecosystem models is one of the biggest and most

spk_0 under-explored aspects of the circular economy. Yeah, and there are so many great ones in this

spk_0 version of your book that made me really hopeful and it was cool to see and hear about these examples.

spk_0 So, Learn Biomimicry is hosting their Bi-Animal Biomimicry Confluence this October online.

spk_0 I'll be there and so will some incredible Biomimicry Keystone speakers, some of which you've heard

spk_0 on this very podcast. Now in its second year, the Biomimicry Confluence is becoming the space

spk_0 where nature inspired ideas, innovations, and biomimics flow together. Learn Biomimicry gets the

spk_0 world of Biomimicry into one room with breakout networking sessions and small intimate groups.

spk_0 It feels like a TED Talk and a good dinner party all in one. Here about the latest Biomimicry

spk_0 innovations, how AI and Biomimicry are overlapping and what's working in this field.

spk_0 The Biomimicry Confluence is a must attend event for those who wish to learn,

spk_0 connect, and be inspired by what nature can teach us.

spk_0 Head to Learn Biomimicry.com to learn more.

spk_0 And I would love to dive a little bit into your first version of Biomimicry and Architecture

spk_0 came out 2011 and then this version is coming out later this year. What has happened in those 14

spk_0 years that is really exciting for you as far as making these systems level changes,

spk_0 Biomimicry changes more of a reality, unless of an ideology.

spk_0 Yeah, so there have been some quite substantial shifts. So thank you for some of those ecosystem

spk_0 principles. It can eventually human systems tend to be very monofunctional and isolated,

spk_0 whereas ecosystems are multifunctional and densely interconnected. And now urban developments,

spk_0 the default really is mixed use. It is a diversity of uses which gives much greater opportunities

spk_0 for these kind of synergies to be achieved. It's also promising to see a really fundamental shift

spk_0 in agriculture towards regenerative agriculture. Now I know that that term is being kind of used and

spk_0 abused a bit. But at least it's out there. People are talking about it. Yes, yeah, exactly.

spk_0 And then I also think it's really positive that we're now talking more about how humans are nature.

spk_0 So in the UK, there's I think at least a thing here, there's a campaign to change the dictionary

spk_0 definition of nature. So it's kind of laughable when you read this definition. There's something

spk_0 like all the living species of planet earth as opposed to humans. So I think that point is now

spk_0 has been very well made that we are nature. And what that prompts really is a question. All right,

spk_0 if we are nature, what comes next? What does that mean for the way we live and build?

spk_0 What does it mean to design as nature? Yeah, that's the big question. And what does nature want

spk_0 from our designs? That one gets me, gets me thinking. Another thing I really love in the book

spk_0 are these comparison tables you have that kind of showcase human technology or our current

spk_0 manufacturing techniques and nature's methods. And it's so clear, we have a ways to go because

spk_0 nature's are so aligned with these regenerative principles, right? Waste as a resource, for example.

spk_0 And I'm curious seeing those comparisons side by side, like what are some technologies or processes

spk_0 that you've seen recently or in the past that are going to help us make that shift from harmful

spk_0 and maybe obsolete single function to life-friendly, multifunctional and regenerative? What will allow us

spk_0 to get there, basically? Well, in the book, I'm wary of talking too much about technology. And in

spk_0 some ways 3D printing is a really good case in point because it shows how important the kind of

spk_0 world view is or the mindset that lies behind any particular technology because that to a large

spk_0 extent determines what comes out of it. So 3D printing within a conventional mindset of sustainability

spk_0 could easily see as drowning in millions of tons of short-life consumers crap bluntly. But within

spk_0 a regenerative mindset, it could be really transformative because it could allow us to use exactly

spk_0 the right materials to assemble them in much more ingenious and efficient ways and in ways that

spk_0 allow near-perfect circularity. And in my studio, we've explored that a bit. So we designed some

spk_0 exhibition tables a few years ago that were based on bone and tree growth patterns. And they were

spk_0 3D printed out of a biologically derived polymer. And they look really organic. They look a lot like

spk_0 work really branching and so on. I got to see one. It was great at the biomemically center.

spk_0 Yeah. Oh, cool. And there's nothing accidental about those forms. It's actually trying to get as

spk_0 close as possible to a theoretically perfect structure. And what I mean by that is trying to put the

spk_0 material in exactly the right place so that it's using a minimum of materials to achieve its intended

spk_0 aim. Now, of course, structures aren't always quite as simple as that because often you have

spk_0 kind of multiple load cases, you know, wind and snow and seismic and so on. But anyway, as a simple

spk_0 study of how those ideas can be turned into something efficient and beautiful, I think it's a

spk_0 really good project. And 3D printing, I think, can also help in this shift towards biomaterials,

spk_0 which in turn is going to help as shift towards these systems that are aligned with life and

spk_0 that work on the same principle as ecosystems. Because, you know, biomaterials are so much

spk_0 easier to dismantle. When they're made in living organisms, they're assembled using low energy

spk_0 bonds. It's all non-toxic stuff. And so it's just much more compatible. And then within this

spk_0 chapter about materials, there are some other examples that I look at like self-healing ideas

spk_0 inspired by nature and developed into a built environment solution. And the reason I was particularly

spk_0 interested in that is because when we worked on the Eden project, the enclosure there is an inflated

spk_0 membrane. It's called ETFE ethyl-tech-fero ethylene. And it achieved the kind of thing that

spk_0 Amy Lovin's love talking about, which is a factor 100 saving. So it was about 1% of the weight

spk_0 of double glazing. And there were then lots of knock on savings because with a much lighter enclosure,

spk_0 we needed less structure, less structure, we needed less foundations. We were also getting more

spk_0 sunlight in, so we didn't need to put as much heat in and so on. So, you know, it's a great

spk_0 positive cycle. But one of the drawbacks with those pressurized structures is that they are

spk_0 susceptible to puncture damage. And the example I talk about in the book comes from, I think it's

spk_0 Olga and Thomas Speck in Germany. And they were inspired by a particular vine, which has a self-repairing

spk_0 adaptation. And the way they've applied it to pressurized membranes is that on the inside of the

spk_0 membrane, there are rows of little pressurized cells, a bit like bubble wrap. Do you call it bubble

spk_0 wrap? Yeah. And so if there's a puncture, those cells then immediately expand and seal up the

spk_0 hole. And after they've developed this, they found that it's sealed in a fraction of a second.

spk_0 And that's a really elegant solution to something like pneumatic structures, which offer great

spk_0 potential. And then another project that I think demonstrates some of the useful contrasts

spk_0 between conventional engineering in terms of materials and the way nature makes materials

spk_0 is one that we've been working on called the Biroch Pavilion, where we're exploring ideas of

spk_0 environmentally influenced self-assembly. And perhaps the clearest way of describing that for

spk_0 your listeners is if you imagine a tree on a kind of windswept cliff and it adopts really quite a

spk_0 windswept form, the tree is building up tissue where there's concentrations of force. And in this

spk_0 project, the Biroch Pavilion, it's a serious proposal to grow a building in seawater through a

spk_0 electrode deposition of minerals. And it's an existing technology, could Biroch, but so far as

spk_0 only being used for coral reef restoration. What we thought would be fun, and this was a suggestion

spk_0 from Julian Vincent, was that on some of the steel rods, if we actually had a strain gauge on those,

spk_0 it would give a reading of the force that existed in that member. And we could then use that to

spk_0 direct a little bit more current to that piece of steel. So the ones that were under the most

spk_0 loading would grow more until they aren't strong enough to resist what they need to.

spk_0 Yeah, there's some really wonderful examples of how nature does that and how we're learning from

spk_0 that, which is really cool. And that reminds me of a statement that's early on in this version.

spk_0 And I forget if it's a quote, it might be a quote, but it says, the combination of evolved adaptations

spk_0 and human ingenuity exceeds the power of each alone. And I love that. It's a beautiful

spk_0 description of we can tap into billions of years of research and development in the natural world.

spk_0 And we do need our creativity to apply those to adapt those strategies to what we need in the

spk_0 challenges that we have. And I'm curious if there's some examples of the buildings and cities

spk_0 world where you can give me of this is an abstracted version of biomimicry, kind of what you just

spk_0 were saying. And we needed human ingenuity in order to do that. It wouldn't exist without human

spk_0 ingenuity. Does that make sense? Yeah, sure. I think it's worth just distinguishing between

spk_0 how evolution has produced adaptations and how humans think. That's why I think the kind of

spk_0 those is very fertile. So evolution works by improving on what exists and refining that over

spk_0 eons through just countless numbers of experiments for one to a better word. But one of the disadvantages

spk_0 of that is that sometimes you get a kind of a branching path that goes off in a slightly suboptimal

spk_0 direction. And then the adaptations just improve on that. And so there's an Australian geneticist

spk_0 Jenny Graves who says, well, you know, the human eye is actually pretty stupidly designed compared

spk_0 to a squid eye. Human eye is all back to front, but somewhere along the line, well, you know,

spk_0 we departed from the squid and ours turned out to be nowhere near as good. And then human

spk_0 ingenuity, unlike evolution, is capable of creating something out of thin air. It's capable of

spk_0 completely original invention with no precedent. But one of the problems with humans is that we are

spk_0 prone to a whole range of unconscious biases and we can often get stuck in certain ways of doing

spk_0 things. And I think biomeurically can help us overcome some of those obstacles by exposing us to a

spk_0 vast range of potential solutions to contemporary challenges. And the example that I normally

spk_0 use in talks to describe this is the medical drill that was inspired by a wood wasp. So the wood wasp

spk_0 has this overpositive which can drill into wood, but making something that rotates continuously

spk_0 in nature, that's just very challenging with living tissue. And his solution is a drill bit in two

spk_0 semi-circular halves which move back and forth rather to each other in a sort of reciprocating motion.

spk_0 And they've got ridges on them. So when it puts that in a crack in the wood, it can pull on one side

spk_0 and then push with the other. And the result is a zero net pushing force drill. That's now been

spk_0 turned into a medical drill that can be used in very delicate surgery. So using virtually no

spk_0 pushing force can drill into a skull. And because the drill bits into semi-circular halves,

spk_0 it can follow a curved path. And that's the kind of thing that I think humans would be very unlikely

spk_0 to have come up with. And it's a huge improvement on something that up until that point, we'd been

spk_0 using all along, which was like a rigid, continuously rotating drill bit.

spk_0 Yeah, that's why I like to say that biomemically is humbling in some sense, right? Like there's

spk_0 some stuff that we would have never thought of. And then combined with our creativity and our ideation,

spk_0 we can create some really hopeful technology and design and products to make a more regenerative

spk_0 future, which I'm really excited about. And that's where I think so many folks get attracted

spk_0 to biomemically because it's almost like, oh yeah, of course. Yeah. This is like coming home

spk_0 and that reconnection is so natural as well. It's also really handy when you're trying to

spk_0 persuade clients to do something innovative. If you can show that it already exists,

spk_0 I mean, it's effectively proven. Yeah. It kind of sets up this challenge, if a beaver or whatever

spk_0 can do it, then we ought to go to do it because we're an ingenious species. Yeah. And then those

spk_0 moments where like photosynthesis where we can't quite get to the exact same efficiency because we

spk_0 haven't 100% figured it out yet. And that to me is like, yeah, we're these genius creatures,

spk_0 but also we have a long way to go. Carpet to learn. Yeah. I would love to hear about some of your

spk_0 maybe one or two of your like favorite organic forms. You mentioned a couple so far in this interview.

spk_0 Why are there your favorite? And then maybe tell us some of their interesting features. I know

spk_0 listeners love to nerd out. So this is our moment to nerd out on cool stuff and nature. And then

spk_0 what makes it inspiring to you? Are there things built based off of these principles? Or yeah,

spk_0 feel free to go down that rabbit hole if you want. Sure. So one that I really like is the

spk_0 abalone shell. And I'm sure you're familiar with it, but for the listeners benefit, when you look

spk_0 at under a powerful microscope, you can see that it's made of lots of layers of calcium carbonate

spk_0 polygons. And those are connected with a flexible protein. And that gives it amazing resistance

spk_0 to crack propagation. So at a chemical level, it's almost identical to ordinary blackboard chalk,

spk_0 but because of those interfaces and that microstructure, it achieves 3,000 times the toughness.

spk_0 And there's a method of building that is very similar to this. It's called Gwesterveno

spk_0 vaulting, sometimes called Catalan vaulting. And it was actually very popular in previous centuries.

spk_0 There were a lot of buildings built this way in New York. It's still built quite a bit in Spain.

spk_0 And there was a quite a well publicized building in South Africa, a visitor center, the Mapungubwe

spk_0 visitor center made this way. And what I'm keen to explore is using waste material to have a

spk_0 look at this. Though if you look at an example like slate, though slate is an incredibly wasteful

spk_0 industry, I think more than 95% of the material is actually wasted. And it's just small flat

spk_0 pieces of stone, which are really quite similar to Abelone in many ways. So I'm keen to explore

spk_0 that. And that's partly because as this sort of abundant amount of material waiting to be used,

spk_0 but also because the forms are just so beautiful and efficient, they have this just kind of

spk_0 legible clarity and efficiency to them. So that's one that I'm really keen on. And then another one

spk_0 is bird skulls. So I find those are a really fantastic embodiment of structural efficiency in nature.

spk_0 And what you have is these domes of very thin, bony material connected together with little

spk_0 struts and ties. And it really gets across something that Julian Benson talks about, which is that

spk_0 in nature, materials are expensive and shape is cheap. And what that means is nature kind of puts

spk_0 the material exactly where it needs to be. And conventionally, that used to be quite expensive,

spk_0 because that kind of complicated approach just meant more labor and more expense. But now,

spk_0 with 3D printing, it has the potential to be cheaper because you can, in theory, you should be

spk_0 to use less material. And there's no real cost penalty for complexity in 3D printing. Yeah, so those

spk_0 are the main ones that occur to me at the moment. Yeah, I'm glad you pulled out that quote,

spk_0 material is expensive, shape is cheap because that really spoke to me as well. Like if we can get even

spk_0 some of the efficiency that pretty much all structures in nature get to inherently because they

spk_0 have to, that's the way evolution designed them. And the structures in our inefficient don't exist

spk_0 anymore. And that shape complexity on a nanoscale, on a micro scale, yeah, if we can start integrating

spk_0 some of those principles, I feel like we would make a lot of really big shifts inherently, which is

spk_0 exciting. I ask this of all my guests, and I'd love to hear, we talked a little bit on the darker

spk_0 side earlier. I'd love to hear what's giving you hope. And right now, what are you excited about

spk_0 currently or yeah, coming up in the future? I sometimes wonder if I have a different understanding

spk_0 of the word hope to others because for me, something a bit sort of detached and fallen about it.

spk_0 And so I prefer to use words like determined rather than hopeful. And this was also what Sarah and I

spk_0 were talking about really when we talked about possibleism in our flourish. But in a way, it's not

spk_0 enough to be optimistic or pessimistic because those imply that the future or something that happens

spk_0 to you, whereas with possibleism, you need to work together with others to create a commonly

spk_0 held idea of the future. And then actually, it's about making that happen. And that's what I really

spk_0 think we need to do. We need to get better at maximizing our agency. But I'll stop being an awkward

spk_0 guest now. No, I love that. I is going to cause me to go down a philosophical rabbit hole later.

spk_0 I mean, in terms of where I see bright spots, I think, you know, that is a really important question

spk_0 when things are looking so bleak. And one I mentioned earlier, which is the idea that we are

spk_0 nature is now gathering momentum. I think that's really positive because inevitably, I think people

spk_0 are going to think, or how do we actually align with life. And then I think it's very positive that

spk_0 regenerative to design is gathering momentum. And people are starting to realize that a lot of the

spk_0 things that we did within sustainability were just nonsense. Really, you know, it was very common

spk_0 for, and it still is to, to some extent, for big practices to just focus all their PR efforts on

spk_0 a couple of projects that are pushing boundary-soustoned stability while the rest of their portfolio

spk_0 is nowhere near that standard. Now, I mean, seriously, is nature going to be fooled by that? Of course,

spk_0 not. You know, we're only going to actually be having a net positive impact when we are net

spk_0 positive across all our projects. And then the other shift that I think is very positive is the

spk_0 shift towards citizens thinking. So, you know, there was a time when the way we identified

spk_0 as humans was as a subject, you know, a subject to a monocoro, a theocratan. And then with the

spk_0 modern era, we started to see ourselves as consumers. And it's easy to see how that must have felt

spk_0 quite liberating after the kind of defecating traditional views and so on. And then the idea of

spk_0 being consumers that started to reveal its own drawbacks and the idea of conscious consumerism

spk_0 came in. And now we can see that that's not really enough. And so the next shift is about seeing

spk_0 ourselves as citizens with a much richer and deeper sense of agency. And so saying, well, no, I

spk_0 don't want to just choose from what's on the menu. I actually want to challenge why that is the

spk_0 limit of options. And I also want to rethink the way we currently do democracy because it's

spk_0 absolutely hopeless to just have one vote every four or five years. And some of the examples of

spk_0 participatory forms of democracy, either in terms of participatory budgeting or in citizens

spk_0 assemblies, I think it's been hugely successful. And I think that's a really positive development

spk_0 because it seems that people often achieve a kind of transformation. I think the outcomes of

spk_0 them have a lot of legitimacy if it's been set up correctly because the group are supposedly

spk_0 representative of the whole nation. And it allows people to actually engage in a more informed

spk_0 assessment of important issues. We had this disastrous Brexit vote in the UK, a hugely

spk_0 significant vote. And it was based on a huge amount of misinformation. It was the most

spk_0 insane acts of national self-arm. I've been not good enough. But I really do think that a

spk_0 kind of revitalization of our democracy is essential. And if I may just extend one thing further,

spk_0 I'm getting more and more interested in theories of change and what constitutes an effective

spk_0 theory of change. And I feel that we haven't really, the we I'm talking about is maybe the built

spk_0 environment, built environment professionals or society more broadly. We haven't really talked

spk_0 enough about the obstacles to progress. And in calling in Gunderson's adaptive cycle model,

spk_0 which shows that systems, complex systems go through or suggest that complex systems go through

spk_0 four stages of growth, consolidation, release and renewal, that consolidation stage, I think,

spk_0 is really interesting because that's the stage in which the system becomes more and more resistant

spk_0 to outside change. In fact, it responds to outside change by becoming more and more resistant.

spk_0 And in social or political examples, I think we're very much in that stage now,

spk_0 you know, governments and business and oligarchs and tech billionaires have become way too close

spk_0 to each other. And they're very effectively blocking meaningful change. We really do have to

spk_0 address that. And I hope that happens by peaceful means.

spk_0 Yeah, I think something's going to happen either way. I think that like you said, people are really

spk_0 coming into awareness. And it's a big shift that I'm hoping happens soon because we need it to.

spk_0 All right. And then last thing, I just want you to share about the upcoming book release

spk_0 and where people can find that book and any other projects you have going on that you want to share

spk_0 about. Sure. Okay. So it's published in this country on September the 1st. It's called

spk_0 Bime and Green Architecture Third Edition. This time it's it's big. It's been rewritten. And it's

spk_0 also at this time I've been working with a brilliant illustrator called Bastia Hittby Hottich,

spk_0 which has really helped to describe some of the ideas in greater clarity. You can buy it from the

spk_0 publisher's websites, RWA publications. It'll also be available on Amazon and quite possibly in

spk_0 some of the more specialist bookshops. I think it'll arrive in it'll be available in the US from

spk_0 sort of mid to late September. And of course, there's a digital version as well if you'd rather

spk_0 have a digital version. Wonderful. Thank you, Michael. This was a joy to talk to you.

spk_0 Well, that goes away. Thank you so much for having me on. And thank you for everything you're doing.

spk_0 I appreciate you all for listening in today and for being a part of this beautiful web of

spk_0 Changemakers Across the Globe. I'm excited to continue to share my own journey and invite guests

spk_0 that inspire us and give us a greater sense of curiosity for our genius world.

spk_0 This is a quick reminder that we have some really awesome nature nerd merch like shirts and stickers

spk_0 so you can help support the podcast and look cool on your next hype. These were custom designed by

spk_0 my friend and incredible artist Sarah Williams and they showcased the amazing range of unique

spk_0 organisms here on earth. You can grab yours at learningfromnature.earth-murch. I also want you all to

spk_0 know how much I appreciate every review rating recommendation and support as you were all helping

spk_0 by a mimicry reach more people. Together we can not only imagine but create a beautiful world with

spk_0 life at the forefront and guiding the way.

spk_0 This episode was brought to you by Learn Biomicree. If you're wanting to start your own

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Biomimicry in Architecture with Michael Pawlyn

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