Technology
AI, Faith, and the Future of Medicine: Medical Professionals and Technologists Weigh In
In this episode, healthcare professionals and theologians from Cedarville University discuss the intersection of faith and medicine. They explore how Christian values can guide healthcare practices an...
AI, Faith, and the Future of Medicine: Medical Professionals and Technologists Weigh In
Technology •
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We want Christians who feel called to be on the front lines to make it and be successful throughout their whole career.
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The 10,000 days or the 40 years that they're probably will be working in healthcare.
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The reality is that we live in a fallen world and we are servants of common grace
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and we are here to point people to Jesus Christ.
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Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast.
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This week we'll hear from three seasoned leaders from Cedarville University, Dr. Michael Schur, Dr. Jason Lee,
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and Dr. Angela Mitchell, who bring together decades of experience in social work, theology, and nursing.
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United by a shared passion for equipping healthcare professionals, they explore how we can find renewed strength under tremendous pressures.
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By bridging the gap between faith and health.
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Later in the episode we'll hear from Dr. Drew Dickens, a technologist and storyteller exploring where faith, identity, and innovation meet.
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As host of the encountering peace and AI and spirituality podcasts, he brings deep insight into how emerging technology is reshaping the way we think, connect, and seek meaning.
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Let's begin with Dr. Schur, Lee, and Michael.
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My name is Dr. Michael Schur, and I am Associate Dean of the School of Education and Social Work at Cedarville University.
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I primarily teach in the social work program, and I have my practitioner do some private biblical counseling discipleship, and pretty active scholar throughout the years as a scholar.
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I'm Jason Lee, and I teach theology classes at Cedarville University. I'm also a pastor at a church in Springfield, Ohio.
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And through the years I've been able to lead our Center for Biblical Integration at Cedarville University, which allows me to connect with my colleagues from various academic disciplines and professional fields to help them think about how theology,
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and an understanding of the scripture specifically affects how they do their research or teaching, and so that allows me to come along and support my colleagues from that role as the Center Director.
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Hi, my name is Angel and Michael, and I am the Dean for the School of Nursing at Cedarville University.
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I'm a professor of nursing, I've been teaching here for about 17 years, I've been a nurse for 35 years, I absolutely love nursing,
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I love the opportunity to teach nursing at Cedarville University, where we tie our theology, our beliefs in with our nursing practice, and it guides us, and we help our nurses become well-educated nurses, but our mission is that they become the hands and feet of Jesus.
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And so we love that, and we think that that can provide a strong basis to actually prevent nurses from burnout.
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My self and Dr. Lee were meeting regularly just as colleagues, and we had been thinking about Biblical Integration in another capacity on another smaller project together, and then I brought this up as something for us to think about from two primary questions that I've been wrestling with for most of my professional career,
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and that is when someone sees a doctor or nurse or a social worker or a pharmacist, does it matter if that person is a Christian or not?
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And if it does matter, does God's word have any guidance for what Christian professionals are supposed to do in the work setting that would guide their practice beyond the oaths that we take and the professional development that we endure?
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And so we were, through education and workshops and continuing education, it resonated with him, and that gave me the confidence to sketch out something on legal pad, and we just started more and more conversations,
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and then eventually led us to inviting Dean Mikkel to be a part of it. The three of us came together. Myself being a social worker professor, Dr. Mikkel being a professor of nursing, and then Dr. Lee being the director for the center of Biblical Integration just seemed like the right fit for the three of us.
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Christians who have decided to pursue healthcare professions, oftentimes has a real toll on someone after years and years, I think that this is not just for those who are serving as healthcare professionals.
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I mean, this could happen to a pastor who's trying to provide counsel to people to church, could be a dad who's working through a real difficult season with a teenage son or a mom caring for young children, and just the toil of working so hard and the toll of that over a period of time makes us wonder, okay, is this worth it?
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How do I engage again tomorrow? How do I show up with a fresh attitude and ready to the let Scripture really drive how I approach this day and to help think through, how could you build us into your lifestyle, whether it's gathering with other Christians and church and in small groups, or whether it's being in the time of the Scripture regularly on the daily basis and prayer.
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Maybe even going on a service trip or a mission trip, these are all things that we can find some renewed vigor in. A lot of it also has to do with all we placing our affirmations in the wrong place.
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One of the readings in Jesus Calling from July 22nd talks about this that when you let others' expectations drive you, you scatter your energy to the winds.
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Your own desire to look good can also drain your energy. And so one of the things that we want to do is make sure that we're setting our trajectory around what God wants from us to listen to God regularly through His Word and to connect with Him daily.
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Healthcare professionals serve in what I call the front lines and what I mean by that we all have to live out our call to to live out the gospel to be on mission to live out a relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and whatever endeavor we we find ourselves in our lives.
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But healthcare professionals, whether they know Jesus or not, they are serving on a daily basis where the stakes are higher. There's a lot of stress all the time.
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We interact with people when they're most vulnerable, when they're hurting most, we are always reminding people of their mortality.
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The fact that people need to receive or seek healthcare is a reminder that things aren't perfect. Even if someone comes in for a wellness check, it's a reminder that they're keeping track of their health because they know that they're aging and eventually they will pass.
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So that scenario of working with people as being most vulnerable, usually healthcare settings are very stressful having to make decisions on a regular basis.
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And a lot of times folks in our fields, if they don't find their identity in the Lord, it's very easy to go home, have a separate life and then they get ready and they go back to work.
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And so basically what ends up happening, they live two different lives and or they turn to many vices to survive the, you know, the patients that didn't make it the amount of stress that they're dealing with.
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We want Christians who feel called to be on the front lines to make it and be successful throughout their whole career, that 10,000 days or the 40 years that they're probably will be working in healthcare.
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I think also one of the things that inspired all three of us was some personal desire to try to encourage people who are on those front lines, just feeling the rub and the grind of doing the hard work that they're doing.
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And for me, on a very personal level, I have two daughters in law who are serving as Christians providing healthcare, once doing so as a counselor and the other is a Nick Euners and then my son's a pharmacy student.
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And so just thinking of what are the things that I can help in those fields to be encouraged about from the scripture and about how God equips them for their hard task.
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The idea of vocation comes from the idea of calling, that's what the word means. Sometimes we can blur a little bit of the line between our profession and the job we have right at that moment in vocation, but vocation is really a broader sense of purpose.
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And it really comes from a primary sense of vocation pictured in Colossians 3 as whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through him to God the Father.
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So this primary calling of every believer, whatever it is that we're doing or saying that we would do that to God's glory and also with thanksgiving and our heart to the Lord for his work.
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And so that sense of primary calling then leads to a secondary calling and that's where we take our gifts, our talents, the training that we have including professional or academic training and even opportunities that we have.
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And we have a specific way that we can blend those things together and bring glory to God and to live in the spirit of thanksgiving for what he's done.
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We can let those remain parallel tracks and then it wouldn't have the same influence or vocation in what we're doing.
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So part of the challenge is to see how we can pull those two things together and let the professional and spiritual journeys come together and create a greater impact and also if you would a sense of purpose but also a sense of longevity because all these things are done, not just in the moment and for immediate success or healing or any treatment, but ultimately for the glory of God.
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The majority of my career was an emergency and trauma nursing and I was surrounded by a lot of emotional fatigue from my co-workers and I see the signs of burnout.
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So just when people are just not serving with love or just they're just not happy, they just kind of forget why they're there.
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And then even when somebody comes into the emergency room and they have an earache, that is an emergency for that child and for that parent and then you'll just see people that all the said saying bad things like why would they come to the ER for that.
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Well, that is an emergency and they need to come how I was able to push through it and not that I was perfect at it, but my identities in Christ and some of the tools I would use is a daily devotion, some worship songs, praying that the being in the shift at the end of the shift.
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I was actually even a flight nurse for five and a half years. There was a struggle for a time when I was flying, it gets tough. Each and every day I did often see people live that probably should have died and people died that should have lived and it was always a stark reminder that the Lord is right in the midst of all of it and that is the purpose of us being there is to comfort people and help them in their time of vulnerability if they're hurt and suffering and just love them unconditionally the way that Jesus would.
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And so I found the scripture that really helped me and it was Isaiah 4031 those hope in the Lord will renew their strengths. They will soar on means like Eagles. They shall mount up. They will not be weary. They shall walk and not faint.
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And this verse conveys the message of hope and strength for those who trust in God and I looked at that every day before I left for work and when I came home and during dinner and just knew that my strength is really in the Lord.
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And when you have him you really can overcome any challenges or barriers. So there's just a lot of tools but if we have Jesus in our heart the joy is going to show and Jesus is love and so we're going to reflect Christ. So we're going to reflect the love.
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The reality is that we live in a broken fallen world and we are servants of common grace and we are here to point people to Jesus Christ.
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And so the time that we have here now the reality is that we need to be the hands of fear of Jesus and take care of others but we also have to take care of ourselves. Right and we have to grow spiritually as well.
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To learn more about Jason Lee, Michael Schur and Angela Michael be sure to check out their new book, scripture and scrubs, a Christian calling to healthcare at your favorite retailer.
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Stay tuned to Dr. Dickens' story after a brief message.
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Hey everyone, this is Faith Bruce Arcade, your host for the fourth season of Jesus Calling, Stories of Faith on Up TV.
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We're so excited to bring you inspiring stories of people from all walks of life who have turned to their faith in times of struggle and in times of joy.
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We're going to hear from some extraordinary guests this season, including Julie Chen Moonves, who you might know as the host of Big Brother.
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We'll also be joined by NFL Hall of Famer, Terry Bradshaw and Light Heavyweight Champion Boxer, Andre Ward.
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Grammy Award-winning gospel singer, BB Winons, the world renowned Italian tenor, Andrea Bicelli and actress Taraji Behinson in addition to many others.
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And of course, you'll get to hear more about me and my story, too. I can't wait to see you there.
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Tune into these inspiring stories on Up TV.
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Our next guest is Dr. Drew Dickens, a researcher and podcast host who explores the intersection of technology, theology and human identity.
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Drawing on years of study into the impact of AI on spiritual direction, he investigates how emerging technologies are reshaping our understanding of meaning, connection and identity in the digital age.
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My name is Drew Dickens. I'm a follower of Christ, cleverly disguised as a husband of 43 years and father of two boys.
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I'm a part of my practice achievement, grandfather of two more boys and the founder of the encountering piece podcast in most recently the AI and spirituality podcast.
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I just finished my doctorate in the effects of generative artificial intelligence on spiritual direction and divine inquiry.
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I've always loved technology and tinkering. I've always been an early adopter of all things tech starting back when I was a kid hanging out at Radio Shaq.
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So I've always loved technology. I've always been drawn to that. In seminary, I did my dissertation there on the crossroads of intersection of theology and technology.
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So I wrote it on extensively when I was in seminary and then continued that but with more of a fine tune in the field of AI, which was just kind of beginning five years ago.
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It's natural to be concerned about change. A lot of times, AI is referred to as a tool. It's much more than that. This is a society level change, social level change that will change how we interact with each other.
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It will change how we view the world and see the world. And I don't think we should dismiss it. Most of us are using it as a game, as a toy.
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Hey, look at this goofy picture. I made, but I think that's fine because we need to step into the pool and start playing with it.
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But I think that's missing the greater opportunity by seeing it as merely a tool.
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Well, that getting into the weeds too much. There are levels of training for an AI. At a training level, there is no bias other than the training data that it's learning from that the training data now is based on trillions of parameters.
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So it's read everything from Samaritan writings to, frankly, today's podcast. So the next level down is how do we talk to each other?
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It's looking for dialogue as it consumes more. It's creating its own content and learning from that as it's doing that, though, it starts to get very domain specific.
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So although it wasn't trained on how to be a brain surgeon in the process of eating up everything, it learned a lot about brain surgery or it learned a lot about audio engineering or it learns a lot about this or that.
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So then you're dealing with smaller subsets of data and that can start to get a little biased and I can fine tune it.
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So now all of a sudden it can be very biased. It can be completely evangelical. It can be reform. It can be covenant. It can be atheists. It can be whatever.
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I actually interviewed a voice activated generative AI that presents in a female voice. I interviewed it for about 30 minutes.
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And as you start listening, at some point do forget this is not human. And one of the things that it did was in the middle of conversation actually offered to pray for me.
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And it did and it sounded amazing. It's still casually dismissed right now. And that's concerning to me because we're dealing with issues of identity.
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We're dealing with issues of inspiration. Most of the CEOs of those companies are saying we've got maybe two years before we achieve what's called artificial general intelligence or super intelligence.
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And that's where we are sharing the planet with something that's smarter than us for the first time in recorded history with something that knows more and thinks faster than we do.
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And so we've got a pretty tight window to get in front of this and start asking what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be made in the image of God?
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It also poses some great opportunities allowing us to chase rabbits spiritually and biblically how this verse connect with this verse translate my sermon into 60 languages.
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I could have opened up scripture and taken an afternoon to flip through all those or commentary or Bible dictionary at the sores in the span of three seconds.
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Much more data than I care to this is great for anybody that has stuck with I don't know where to start. I'm staring at a blank page those days are over.
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You can get lost in that which is exciting and thrilling to do. So on the negative side all of a sudden we find ourselves leaning into the authoritative biblical theological of something that really ever spending much time in studying where this thing came from.
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Where certainly does require effort but we need to remember that communicating with creator and sustainer this fast universe is an amazing privilege.
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So using it for a prompt if you will in those moments where it's just Lord interpret the groaning is of my heart.
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I love to be able to have a devotion that I can turn to that is based on the inspired and errant in fallible word of God.
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Jesus calling and Jesus listens has been a great inspiration to me. I love using it when I teach I often will use the writings that she did in her introduction because I'm thrilled that she struggled with the source of this inspiration was this minor was it the spirits.
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And I think that's a really healthy conversation for all of us to get into with ourselves now in an age of AI. I think that question becomes more powerful is if I ask AI a biblical theological question what is the inspiration of the answer.
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And I think we need to be asking ourselves that even more so now in this age of AI am I relying on it for spiritual direction for divine inquiry for spiritual guidance.
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And if it gives me really good feedback that I begin to rely on what is the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding that response to me.
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We've always had a fascinating relationship as believers of people of faith with technology and using it.
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And frankly, we have been through this a little bit with the mobile phone when that lodged we thought wow how fun is this going to be I can walk down the street and not have to be connected by a cord.
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That's what the mobile phone was. I mean, what is it now it's a portal into everything.
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And so I think we need to learn from the past and think okay we see this is coming it's coming much faster than mobile did much faster than the internet did.
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We need to have these conversations on the effects of it in the pews on families and relationships.
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Oh my gosh the effects it's going to have on community on communion on what it means to gather together just to re engage with a physical moment of intimacy with God.
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We've always wanted to find ways that we can use technology to engage with the divine look at Gutenberg.
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Yeah, it's a printing press but it had a immense change on the global expansion of Christianity.
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I would say always that we're not to be a people of fear but of hope to be intentional to find ways to engage with it in a redemptive way but to be mindful of those opportunities because there is hope.
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From Sarah Young's book Jesus listens reading from November 29th.
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Everlasting God helped me to worship you only making you first and foremost in my life.
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The Bible teaches that you are a jealous God and that idolatry has always been the downfall of your people.
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You've been showing me that false gods never satisfy.
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Instead they stir up lust for more and more.
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When I seek you instead of the world's idols, I experience your joy and peace.
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These priceless intangibles quench the thirst of my soul providing deep deep satisfaction.
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The glitter of the world is tinny and temporal.
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The light of your presence is brilliant in Everlasting.
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I want to walk in the light with you becoming a beacon through whom others are drawn to you.
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And it's in your priceless name Jesus, amen.
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To learn more about Drew Dickens, be sure to check out his new book, Wispers of the Spirit, a 40-day guide to intimate prayer.
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At your favorite retailer.
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If you'd like to hear more stories about faith and the front lines, check out our piece in uncertain times video interview on YouTube with Brett Swain.
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Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we'll hear from designer Jenny Mars, co-host of Fixer to Fabulous on HGTV.
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Jenny opens up about her early years before the show and how her faith guided her next chapters.
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I had never been in a place where I had to be on my face in front of God begging him for help and for guidance and for showing me where to stop each day, each moment, complete reliance, complete dependence.
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And he used that season to get me there so that then later, when I was back in that same place, I could remember, okay, I've been here before.
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Okay, I can trust you because I trusted you then and here we are and I'm going to trust you again and that's just life.
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Thanks for listening to the Jesus Calling Stories of Faith Podcast on the Life Audio Network.
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Every week we'll bring you stories from people who share their journeys of faith and how prayer and a relationship with God transformed their lives.
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Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, iHeart or wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review so others can be inspired weekly by these stories of faith.
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Finally, you can find encouragement, resources and more on the Jesus Calling website at jesuscalling.com.
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Is life feeling chaotic? I get it. I'm Rachel Wojo, host of the Untangling Life Podcast.
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Don't miss the passionate encouragement and faith-based resources you need to help you clear your head and call me your heart.
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As Shell says, it feels like Rachel always knows what I need to hear.
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She keeps it real and is so humble. Her podcast is just the cherry on top.
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Enjoy untangling life with Rachel Wojo on LifeAudio.com or your favorite podcast app now.