Technology
About Ending Things
In this episode of 'About Ending Things,' the hosts delve into the complexities and emotions surrounding endings, whether in personal relationships, careers, or academic pursuits. They share...
About Ending Things
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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There's something about ripping off the band-aid, like the metaphorically at least.
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They don't particularly like removing band-aids, because like hairy arms and stuff.
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But when something has gone its course and when it's either done or in such a state that you no longer want to continue,
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I might agonize over the decision for a while, but once I'm fairly confident that I want to end something,
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I think I get a lot of satisfaction in actually making that call and ending the thing.
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I know it makes a lot of people very uncomfortable to end things. Do you like ending things?
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No, I'm way too anxious for ending things. I need to have some kind of fuel to end things,
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but I might even be have this self-sabotage going on to not have to end things.
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So lots of procrastination and stuff. But with that said, I usually like when things have ended.
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So after that there's some period of grief and then something else can take its place.
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Yeah, you had an ending fairly recently with the company you were working at the job,
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which led to another ending. So the company I worked for went into bankruptcy because no money.
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It's a start up that they do that. Yeah, it's statistically likely that they end up that way.
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But I kind of already knew where we were heading six months earlier or something.
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So on the procrastination note, are you sure it's with six months or like two years?
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I don't know. Maybe it wasn't certain. Yeah, there were more. It could have worked.
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Like two years earlier. But then the financial markets went cold.
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Yeah, they certainly did do that.
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Yeah, so if we could have had some more time to basically build a transport management system
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ourselves, we could have made it, maybe made it work. But yeah, it's loads of alternate
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universe thinking there. So and also hindsight is 2020. But it did end. Yeah, it ended. That was great.
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Not the moment, but in the long run after a summer of grieving and sitting by the sea,
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everything became much better. And then I finished the master thesis in December.
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Oh, that's done now? Yeah, it's done. And when it was reported into Lodok, which is the
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it's the source of truth for higher education in Sweden. In Sweden. That's kind of bad as really.
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I like those kind of databases. And when it was reported into Lodok, I can tell you the whole story
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about it in a while. But then I requested to actually finish my education. So now it's finished.
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I got the digital papers like a week ago. Done, done. Yeah. So that's that was super scary.
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It has been an important part of my life for so long. So I don't really know what to feel or do
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or anything, but no more student discounts. Indeed. On the other hand, I'm a software developer.
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I have quite a lot of money. So compared to most, I suppose. So I don't really need those.
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I wouldn't have minded to not have the inflation though, because coffee is crazy expensive.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was one finish. Do you have time to listen to the story
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about it? Quite positively. Let's find out. If you need to run for the bus or something, just let me know.
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Well, yeah. So and I think it was the spring that we contacted our examiner Amalsk Tim,
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is there timeout on most of these work? Like if he had been the beam, he would have said,
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yes, it's five seconds. Sorry. You should have handed this in after five thousand milliseconds
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that default. Exactly. But he wasn't the beam. Still isn't. So he said, no, not really.
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But I'm afraid I must inform you that I'll quit at the last of December, because he's retiring,
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or was retiring. He's retired now. So we sat down and celebrated and agonized me in my last
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ethicist partner, because now in you, we had six months, seven months, something like that to finish
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and then the company worked that fell over. And I didn't really have anything to do, but
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eat sleep and try to recover my sanity and finish the most of this. So are those two actually
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compatible? No, not at all. Master thesis just eats sanity points. I think the thing with
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having something where you don't get continuous feedback, but you get all the feedback in the end,
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this just horrible for my mental state at least. So yeah, there's there's something to look into
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there, but not by me. So when I had my extended summer vacation, when I felt that it was over,
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when it wasn't really feasible to take a bath without using lots of willpower, I went back and
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started to finish the thesis. And we met once a week to sync up and do more work. And in the
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sometimes in December, like around Luzilla, we just went, we must be done now. This can't be.
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It's so done with spent another evening just finishing up everything we thought had to be finished,
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sent it into our examiner and he said, yeah, this looks good. So where are your work cards or work
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sheets? Because they're say, or there was a work card for each master thesis where you have to put
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in all the finished moments or moments is not the word I'm searching for parts with signatures and stuff.
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So we found those after more than five years and photographed them and sent the photos to our
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examiner and he said, okay, so what's happened with peer review and stuff? And we said,
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pandemic, because one of the reasons why we didn't finish the master thesis when we wanted to
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was because everything shut down due to COVID-19. And then we found who was the examiner for the paper
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we were supposed to peer review and or the master thesis we were supposed to peer review. We mailed him
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and he said, this is highly unfortunate and unexpected. I can't possibly handle this right now,
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but I think he alsoed within five minutes or something too. So I don't know, he must have his
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email client in his brain, but he basically said, I cannot help you, I'm sorry. So after thinking about
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this for a while, we got back to our examiner and said, well, can she maybe try to send in the
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work sheets in the state they are without any more signatures? Because then we had signed everything
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we could sign as I want and he said, sure, let's let's find out what happens. Oh, also he was in
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Paris and wasn't supposed to come back to Sweden until after he has had retired. Very clever plan
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or felt like a clever plan at least. So that made things even more interesting. Then he sent in all
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the needed stuff and we got an okay pass. So that was a very exciting mail to receive from Nordok.
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Yeah, I can imagine. How long has it been when did you start? I started at Schalmer's at 2010.
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So 15 years. 14 or 15 depending on how you can't. So that's just a very long time. And five years
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with on and off with the master thesis. Yeah, not all of this time has been active.
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You know, when you have that, well, I should really do this thing in your head that has been the
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master thesis for me. And it's for like seven or eight years or something. Now, it's 2020.
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Okay. So five years. So that's it's a very familiar lack of master thesis in my brain right now
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or something like that. It's the gaping hole. Yeah. Forest can go exactly. It's it's fascinating. Yeah.
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And yeah. So now I got to get a figure out what to do. Yeah. So something else. Something other
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begins. Yeah. Sometimes you just end something with no intent to replace it or to replace it with
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something entirely different. Yeah. I have done a few of those where it's like, okay, this
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interest is fun, but I don't want to do it more than I want to do other thing. So maybe I drop
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my tie for climbing back way back when because I was already falling out of the habit of practicing
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my tie and I was picking up climbing and having fun. But so I think one of the bigger things
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and it has been jobs. Yeah. And I have typically left them before they leave me.
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We used to run like me and some other people used to run an agency web development agency,
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some mobile as well. Yep. And that one essentially burnt out during those two years. They were
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incredibly intense. And after significant therapy and three month break or so, I came back to work.
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But using my newfound psychological tools, I was more sort of willing to draw boundaries. I was
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also detached. I didn't I wasn't in the middle of everything anymore. And I didn't try to be, I think.
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So what that ended up doing was I started looking around for other places. I was stepping out of
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the stress bubble made me also stop caring as much for all of the mess we'd made. So I ended up
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getting an offer to go work for a company or no, I got curious about a company that was one of our
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clients because I did some work at their office and I liked the way they worked. So I got a
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signed waiver on the essentially non-compete so that if I want to, I could go to them. Then I decided
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to start my own business. And then I was almost hired by, let's see, a kids fashion e-commerce store.
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Wow. Because this company was kind of slow on pulling the trigger to bring me in.
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But in the end, they did give me an offer. So I didn't have to go to the kids clothing store.
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And I took a break after I quit. I think, but after that summer, I went for it and worked there for
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like seven years, probably a bunch of years. But then leadership changed. And I got some leadership
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that was both good and bad. One was technically very competent and mostly reasonable, but he was not
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the best leader of people. And he came with a buddy that was absolutely dreadful. And they kind of
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took over our part of the company, like the development part. And I ended up going, yeah, this is not
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for me anymore. This is not what I want to do. I had been employed instead of a contractor for
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a long, like a number of years at that point. Then I decided, all right, I'll try my luck running
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my own business again and actually try to stay my own business this time. Not get bogged down in
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a single client is all I do. So I sort of cut that cord. And that's when I started my business that
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was first just like essentially, uh, Losh, Vickman, uh, self-employed, but then turned into under
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the old and the stuff I do now. So that was also a big ending. And a lot of good negotiations I've
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done have been kind of hinging on the fact that I'm not afraid of things ending whenever I'm afraid
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of things ending. I end up not necessarily taking advantage of, but that that's where bad negotiation
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happens. We really want something. But if you're willing to go, okay, this doesn't work. Then that
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that's where you can actually line things up in the way you want. Like, okay, do they really want to
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be working with you? Can you get paid what you're really asking for? Can you really ask for it
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properly and be willing to walk away if you don't get it? It's like endings are pretty important.
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Yeah. I've seen bad endings to conferences and talks. Have you seen a really bad ending to an event
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sometime? Hmm. Well, they had to empty the nightclub at Chalmers due to a fire alarm that kind of
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put some damn near on the party. And it was raining outside. Ah, yeah. But that's, that's not a
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conference talk to a conference. Well, it's an event. It's an event. Absolutely. I think I, one of the
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things that's so hit or miss is to have a QA and the ending of talks. Yeah, I almost against it
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as a rule unless it's like if you're talking like distributed systems or something, sometimes
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the conversation can get really, really good and crunchy afterwards. And it's sometimes nice to
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have that recorded. Yeah. But the, my recommendation is never run questions after key notes. Oh,
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interesting. Because a keynote is supposed to set a keynote. Yeah. And if you want to keep that
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sucker ringing through that conference, don't let someone else speak at the end.
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It's like I have seen one keynote where
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so Santa Calcommand did a really good job of beating the drum of like companies should hire
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juniors and work with them and figure out. And this is how, how learning and teaching works. And
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this is how you do it. And this is how it's done well. And like it was a very, very neat
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keynote. Yeah. I saw the end of it because I got lost.
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That's impressive. I got lost going to it. Okay. I guess it was a keynote. It was the
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first thing. So then you saw the, well, this is more of a comment that she got, which was
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essentially, well, I mean, it depends. And I know how that happens. I know there's someone there
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that's just like feeling a little bit insecure about their decision to not pick up juniors. And
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the feeling that urgent need to defend it because a woman is saying something they do. Now,
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doesn't have to be because they're a woman, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
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Sunday. Where, where it's just like the final part was just hearing someone be awkward about
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the fact that, well, it's more nuanced than that and yada yada yada. And she's, what is she going
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to say to that? No, it is not more nuanced. It's like, of course, yes, yes, but we don't have
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essentially you just end up watering down the keynote. I've seen that for it was one in Berlin as
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well. I don't remember what the lady was called, but she was part of some larger firm. And I'm not,
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so I don't think her keynote was recorded because they might not want it to be. But it was about
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resource usage and environmentalism. And well, just considering the resource usage of your
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technical choices, essentially, that was the point of it. And there were so there were a bunch
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of questions that just felt like it was a little bit of a call to arms, the talk. It was like,
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yeah, we should consider this when we blah blah blah. And people were just like, oh, but that
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costs money. And we, it's actually complicated. And yes, but not the point. Indeed. Let's
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it's like, yes, debate in the hall after. But,
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ruin the vibe. If someone has worked hard to create a vibe, if you hate the vibe, you can storm
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out that would add to the keynote. Contribute meaningfully with your dramatic.
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Yeah. Make it theatrical. Oh, yes. I think keynote need a storm out corner where everyone who
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a good slammy door. Yeah, something. But they like they end up go there, all of them. And then they
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can leave at once and slam the door like wash bang. It would be interesting to try to make a keynote
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where you can smit doors. And you need to spread the mouth so you can hear all of them. Yeah.
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It's like, oh, there we got the static typers. Oh, there's where we got the TV's.
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So it all starts with a troll face. It's troll face through the entire thing if you're going to
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achieve maximum. Yeah. I've probably mentioned it for, but I like a book named The Art of Gathering.
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Yeah. And it talks a lot about starting things and ending things.
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Because the start of something is, of course, very important to how it begins and like how it
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feels and what it becomes. But the end of something is also very, very important. I've seen,
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like, I've been to conferences where while they did wrap it up, it wasn't clear to people
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what to do next essentially. Oh, no. Like, I've seen a few events where it's just like, oh,
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oh, it ended. Now what? And that's that's not the vibe you want to carry out of the of an event
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typically, unless it's like confusion called 2025. Yeah. Where we're just exercising
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our ability to be baffled and lost. I get to like remedies or examples of how this is handled
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outside of tech conferences. So the first one is in science fiction conferences or, yeah, conferences.
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Where they have a dead dog party. I have no idea where the name comes from.
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But it is a dog party. Yeah, it's deep lore. So the idea is the conference ends with some kind
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of ceremony. And then everyone goes to the pub and it's something and drink something. And either
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they go home with whatever transportation or they sleep another night and go home the next day.
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So they can have a proper dead dog party. So in that culture, it's you get the everyone knows
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what to do. Even before everything is started because there's a dead dog party. And if you're new,
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you will probably be told at some point about the dead dog party. Exactly. But is the dead dog party
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some very particular type of ventures? It's just like meetup at the pub later. It's meetup
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at a particular pub at a particular time later. Like after everything. I mean, that works as long
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as it's transmitted effectively. Yeah, it's usually in the program. Yeah, okay. Like everything ends
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here. But after the ending is like return of the king. It never ends. Just another ending.
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But only too many endings. Yeah. And something they underline in that book is if you fail
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to end something, it will become worse for it. So if you have, let's say you're having a dinner for
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a select group of friends and it's like it's been really nice and you kind of want to keep it
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going forever. Or it's like pedering out, but it's still decently lively. The good choice is
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probably to wrap it up while it's still good. You can make an event that has like a natural sort
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of progression towards an end. So if you're, for example, outdoors and it'll become darker and
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eventually the lights go out and eventually it gets colder, then you have sort of a natural stop.
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Or if it's like, oh, we're going to have a dinner and then everyone's going to scatter. And that
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has a natural stop. In many cases, like staying at a bar until it closes is not the best experience.
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You usually get the ceiling lights lit and everything becomes dark and annoying. But yeah, wrapping it
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up is it's a bit of an arch figuring out where, where's a good stuff? Because the good experience has
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usually been had at some point or if there's going to be a good experience in what you planned
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or in what you did. Rapping it up is usually a cool move. There are moments when like I don't want
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an evening to end. And it's like usually goofing around and chilling with a few people that have
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stayed up late or that have found a good chill vibe. Then you want to ride that for a long time. But
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many times, if you don't let something end, TV shows are a perfect example of this. Most TV shows don't
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need a season two. The best ones don't. I saw something that this was not the best show, but I was
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watching an alright, not great romantic comedy TV series on Netflix. It caught my eye for some reason
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and then I think it was called No One Once This. That's a name. Yeah, it's a name. Yeah. But I was like,
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okay, 10 episodes. I'm in the mood for trash. Give me trash. Was it trash? Yeah, it was like
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junk food. Good. Like acceptable love story junk food with sort of snarky banter-ish
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recently written. But then I realized that it said, oh, look, season two available. And I'm like,
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no, I bailed halfway through season one because I have no interest in something that doesn't end.
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Some shows are good enough that I'm happy to plow eight seasons of where at least five of them are
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great. Yeah. Or two of them are great. Five are good. And one is terrible. That's, yeah, that happens.
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Like when I just want some junk food, I don't want multiple seasons of it. No, thank you. And
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there's no way that show got better by having more seasons. So no three course meal junk food for you.
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I guess that's a decent comparison. Though I could eat a lot of junk food. I'm pretty good at it.
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Yeah, I think one of the important parts is that it's enough content or no, there's a plan
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for more than one of the seasons. And then it suddenly becomes much better. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
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if there's enough Jews to squeeze there, I think I showed like Ted Lasso had a challenge
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because it was so tightly written for the first season. But they did do a decent job setting up
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for a second season and a third season. But I don't think I've seen the third season. I saw
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some of season two at least. But it was a very good season one. And I got curious about a season two,
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but I didn't necessarily want it to exist because season one was essentially perfect. Yeah.
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And I think most anime I've really loved the style of failed, gruesomely to end. Oh, now you need
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so Evangelionness is a famously bad and one. Yeah. The Ghost in the Shell TV series is those I've
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not managed to reach the end of which is a problem in itself. It's not long complex. I don't think I
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ever finished. But then like serial experiments, Lane, and this is maybe more my friction with the story
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some anime want to tell where it's I mean, the cool part of serial experiments Lane was them
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dealing with computers and like hustling weird custom hardware that made things go super fast and
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do weird stuff. But then it was just like, oh, are you got this is weird. What's even reality? And
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that's not actually what I'm what I was there for was there for the aesthetics, but also like
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I like cyberpunk for a personal story. A little bit filthy, a little bit, well, closer to
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to me as the reader in many ways. And that's generally not what those are. I would like to see
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Miyasaki do a cyberpunk. That would be interesting. But it's not the punk part is not his jam and the
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cyber is not either. But it's like, I just want the immersion sometimes. It's like there were parts
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of the Matrix that movie where he's like in some club and he, well, he's smuggling many discs and
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whatnot. I gotta love that. And then there's all this stuff about like, oh, Messiah and being the
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chosen one and stopping bulls. It's like, yes, that was very cool at the time. But I'm so much more
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interested in that weird cyber culture. He was in a hacker life. There are so many so few good hacker
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movies that actually just left them be there in the world for him. So you're more into hackers
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than the Matrix. Oh, yes. Hackers is a good example of the type of movie I want except that hackers
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is a very silly movie. Yeah, I like hackers as a movie. But you could do a more serious version of
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that. That was relevant, interesting and had gripping character moments. It's like pain,
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suffering, dealing with corporations or law enforcement, yeah, the occasional hacking and
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technical gear. Well, yeah. I think the biggest challenge we're making one of those movies nowadays
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is that it becomes a documentary. I imagine there's a lot of black mirror episodes I might enjoy
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because I've heard that they do that type of stuff pretty well. I've seen very few of them.
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I've seen one or two. But it's also a good sign that it's like an anthology because anthologies
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often do exactly what I want. Have you read William Gibson's anthologies? Yes, about a thousand years
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ago. Yeah. So you might be familiar with Burning Chrome. Yes. Yeah. So that's a good example. Then
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there's one where some dude duels other people in a game of simulated dog fighting with old
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World War era airplanes. Yes. And then takes copious amounts of drugs to beat some guy that was
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actually good at it. Yeah. And everyone is sad at the end, I think. Yeah, that one's miserably.
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Yeah. Because but it's like slices of a world that is fascinating. Yeah. I was very fond of the
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bridge short stories by Nina Stevenson because you get those snapshots of a world. Did he do the
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bridge ones? I'm not sure I've read them or was it Gibson? So Gibson did the bridge trilogy and I
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think there's short stories that's backing that up. Yeah. You're thinking of virtual life's
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monoliths over. Well, not monoliths over. What you like? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
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I don't know as many as I say, but if you're going to do it in Japanese, go either. Oh, so it's not
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I don't know. Well, the U is as much of it as you want to put there. It kind of depends on how
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how much English he is in your accent. Okay. Because it's a it is a loner word from the word
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idol. Yeah. So it's idol. This makes me think of the anime's pride, which also could have
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been the earlier, which had like the stinger between ad breaks that didn't exist because it was a
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fan scan was this is a skyddle. And whenever they talked about the place where all the bad stuff
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had happened once upon a time, they talked about lost to ground. Oh, yeah. It was just like very
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satisfying, but also very funny. Yeah. It's like full metal alchemist where there for some reason
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everything happens in Germany. And German names in Japanese are must be so funny. Yeah. They are
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something. I think there's a place called Riesenburg in German. So in Japanese, it becomes something
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like Riesenburg. I'm probably butchering this horribly. But so are they. So I mean good company
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here. I think it's quite it's it's a very good anime to watch when you're having a way to
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high fever. Did they manage to end that one well because I seem to remember it's decently long.
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I think something happened with a manga. So they just did something and didn't do it too well. And then
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there was another anime. There's an OST for that one, right? Like a redo. Yeah. And it's all
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complicated and weird, but you get more anime. So. Well, no, OST is not the name. That's a
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original soundtrack. What does it be called it? Yeah. I think brotherhood. Yeah. But it's called
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something. I don't remember what it is right now when when they either make a new one or they make
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sort of a remix. That is either more or less true to the manga. It's like Helsing. And then the
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remember what kind of thing anymore? Did you see the samurai Champlu? No, not at all. Is it good?
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It is a hip hop journey through feudal Japan. Yes, it's quite good.
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So it's people leaping across rooftops with giant vats of paint and giant paint brushes so they can
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do kanji pieces on buildings. Wow. It's amazing. It's very weird. It's kind of weird. But it's
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like a wandering samurai group story like two fighters and a lady that is not as fighting.
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If I recall. And they had some problem and they needed to solve it and character drama.
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But I think they probably ended pretty well. They didn't overstay their welcome if I recall.
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At least they it wasn't that long a show. I think it was like 28 episodes or something. But on
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access Japanese they had I think he was part of a Dutch missionary group. So because the Dutch had
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special access to Japan when Japan was closed. I'm not sure if he was intended to be an American
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or just like we chose American as our comical Dutch person. I think he was actually an American
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with the Dutch org. But he had the best accent that I use anytime. I want to bother
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my wife about Japanese. So he's like Konichi wa. What a Shi wa.
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It's like using a brutal Swedish accent with English. Yeah. It just hurts in a kind of glorious
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way if you sit right. Yes. I don't really know what to do. Like Walnoy English, the best English.
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All the English. Yeah. Official language without company. Do you have any things you remember as
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like, oh I wish they did more of this but it's good that they ended it when they did.
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Oh, not that comes to mind. Let's see if anything shows up when I start talking.
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I was very fond of Black Lagoon because it's dark and everything is messed up. Everyone is sad.
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But it ends in such a, I think I would have liked it more if it had ended some episodes before it
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ended. And more having this were fading out into the nothingness rather than this huge bang.
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So because the ending is painful in so many ways. Highly recommend the series though.
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Otherwise I'll probably come up with many more. Oh, I have an elixir reference point for
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ending things. Oh, go ahead. When Joseph got up on stage. So this was like seven years ago or
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something. Yeah. And when well, elixir is largely done. I love that. And he has since sort of
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mildly backtracked that which I don't think is necessary because we, well any reasonable person
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will realize that the done and this can change since they're going concerned. Yeah. But with the
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type system work and the work to sort of add the LSP into the language release. Yeah. And those
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are arguably large additions to the language, especially the type system is conceptually quite
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significant. But I mean, it held for seven years before significant things needed to be done
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or something. So I think it was a pretty good call. And it did make people quite happy that it's not
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like, oh, this deal needs a ton of work. It needs to change a bunch. Or it will keep changing it
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because if it's not changing, it's they've kept updating it. But and they have a cadence. So they
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will update it whether there's a lot of changes or not essentially. But it doesn't need a ton of
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change. Yeah. And I think it gives some calm to the community. The community doesn't
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leave us. We don't have to support all kinds of weird shenanigans in the language. We can just
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focus on the important parts. We can contrast this with Haskell, which up until very recently,
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has had the idea that breaking changes are fun. So everyone that works with Haskell and industrial
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setting are they don't really like upgrading if I understood this correctly. I can imagine. Because
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yeah, anything could break at any time. So that's one of the tensions between the academic
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part and the industrial part of the GHC compiler. But so we can compare with the elixir, which
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just works mainly. Yeah. I know some people got a lot of compilation warnings with a recent update.
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That is the type system in action. Oh yeah. It's telling you about things that are actually kind
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of broken in your code. So you can't just rely on luck anymore. Not strictly. No.
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Luck based programming. Well, since it's important to know when to end things, it's been very nice
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talking to you. It has been indeed.