935: Global Issues Accelerated by AI (with Solutions), feat. Stephanie Hare

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 All around the world, doctors take the Hippocratic oath to promise that they will do no harm to humans.

spk_0 Should those of us building AI products take a similar type of oath?

spk_0 Welcome to this Super Data Science podcast. I'm your host, John Krona.

spk_0 Most fortunate to be joined today by Dr. Stephanie Hare, a well-known broadcaster,

spk_0 television host, researcher, and author of the award-winning book, Technology Is Not Neutral.

spk_0 In today's high-level episode, Dr. Hare addresses critical global issues, including AI ethics,

spk_0 and the most important problems we should be solving with AI. This is one not to miss. Enjoy.

spk_0 This episode of Super Data Science is made possible by Anthropic, Dell, Intel, Fabby, and Garobi.

spk_0 Stephanie, welcome to the Super Data Science podcast. It's a treat to have you on the show.

spk_0 How are you doing? Thank you for inviting me on the show. I'm happy to be here.

spk_0 Now, I'm sure people can already guess by your accent that you're based in London.

spk_0 So, thanks totally obvious. Yes, I am from the Midwest of the United States originally,

spk_0 just outside Chicago, but I now live in beautiful sunny London.

spk_0 Now, I understand. I wasn't there much this summer, but I understand that it was actually a pretty

spk_0 nice summer. We had four heat waves. The climate change is, you know, things that are around

spk_0 about 3.8. We will actually get to climate change later in the episode, but to kick things off,

spk_0 you are a researcher, broadcaster, and author with experience as an IT strategist at Accenture

spk_0 Palantir and Oxford Analytica. You co-present a wonderful BBC television program called AI

spk_0 Decoded and you published in tons of the biggest publications in the world, Washington Post,

spk_0 HBR, Wired, the Guardian, and you also have a book. So it came out in 2022 and the financial times

spk_0 put it as one of their best technology books in 2022. It's called Technology Is Not Neutral,

spk_0 a short guide to technology ethics. And so I thought this could be a nice place to start.

spk_0 In a nutshell, Stephanie, what is technology ethics? Technology ethics is a book that I started

spk_0 to write before the pandemic and then wrote mainly during the pandemic. And I wanted to write it

spk_0 for a number of reasons. One was that I had just finished my career. I hope working for big companies,

spk_0 working for other people. And I had started to go independent. So I was sort of newly independent.

spk_0 But I had a lot of thoughts from the time from when I was somebody's employee and was very,

spk_0 very lucky to work with some of the best clients in the world and fabulous, fabulous technical people,

spk_0 software engineers, product developers, strategists, and the like. And I thought

spk_0 I would like to capture the learnings that I've been really lucky to have in my career in one place

spk_0 so that I can pass this on because I wished a book like this had existed when I started out.

spk_0 I felt like I made a lot of mistakes in my career. Partly is a learning journey, but some of

spk_0 the big ethical faux pas. Yeah, I mean, there was just no training. There was no ethical training,

spk_0 like back in the Jurassic age when I graduated from university and started working in technology.

spk_0 So my first tech job was in 2000. Many of the listeners to this wonderful cutting edge show,

spk_0 of course, not have even been born then, but that's when I started just at the end of the .com boom.

spk_0 And we were, you know, we were sort of given like two weeks of training and Accenture,

spk_0 which by the way was great, it's better than nothing, but to get in and start messing around with

spk_0 data and building things. And there was zero discussion, none of ethics at all. And you know,

spk_0 there's no discussion, obviously, of AI. That was not a thing back then. But responsible technology,

spk_0 data protection, even cybersecurity. Are we building a system that's secure? What happens if

spk_0 one of the partners in a supply chain goes down where what happens to the data? Nothing, nothing.

spk_0 And so yes, there was a lot of on the job learning. And I just thought if I could capture that

spk_0 and put it out there, A, I've get it out of my brain because it was taking up a lot of space.

spk_0 And B, maybe it would be useful, but I also thought no one would read it. It was, it was just a

spk_0 an exercise that I wanted to try to do. I hoped someone would read it, but I was kind of convinced

spk_0 no one would. And I think that's what's weird is that I was very lucky to publish it in February

spk_0 of 2022 because the world was still largely in lockdown. I think people were very desperate for

spk_0 something to read. So it got read. And it's been used to teach people, which was obviously like the

spk_0 nerd dream in the sense of if this was useful and other people could learn from it and teach it and

spk_0 use it as a starting point. That's wonderful. It's also now like a historical artifact because it

spk_0 came out before generative AI became widely popular. So there's all sorts of stuff that's missing.

spk_0 And my publisher and I have discussed a lot, you know, is it time to write either like an introductory

spk_0 chapter that sort of talks about what's changed. I think it's too soon. I want to wait a little bit

spk_0 longer. We can talk about that if you like, about in terms of what what I'm already flagging.

spk_0 If there were to be like volume two or even just another chapter, there's a lot that's missing.

spk_0 You know, AI is not treated. Obviously generative AI is not treated at all. AI is treated

spk_0 personally. Nothing about environments, sustainability climate, which I know will discuss.

spk_0 Here in the UK, we're now talking about bringing in digital ID for everybody. And that's like a big

spk_0 topic of chapter three in the book. So to see that and be like, oh, no, we might have to update that.

spk_0 That's a thing. And the book starts, of course, with the cancellation, if you will, of the then

spk_0 president's Donald J. Trump Trump administration 1.0. He gets punted off of Twitter because he was

spk_0 inciting the insurrection and storming of the Capitol and attempts to decertify a democratic election.

spk_0 And people were murdered or killed in the process. So the then CEO of Twitter, Jack Dorsey,

spk_0 then Twitter, the then CEO, the then Twitter, and the then president. There was an ethical decision.

spk_0 And that's how I start the book. And of course, now we're seeing so-called cancel culture have a

spk_0 new twist under Trump 2.0. It's other people. It's liberals getting canceled, not MAGA people.

spk_0 You know, the boot is literally on the other foot. And this question that Jack Dorsey raised was,

spk_0 is this the right decision to kick somebody off of his platform, particularly in that case,

spk_0 it was someone who was an elected official, is still salient, but is being now posed in a really

spk_0 different way. So some of the questions still hold, which is a good sign. And then there's the

spk_0 stuff where I'm like, I can't believe I didn't look at anything to do with climate. But in my defense,

spk_0 I wrote a book like locked in my flat for two years, while we had much more pressing concerns.

spk_0 And so I was writing about pandemic health tech, which is obviously not particularly interesting

spk_0 to people now in 2025. We've all moved on and no one wants to open the pandemic box,

spk_0 fair enough. So I hope it will be useful, but time will tell maybe, you know, maybe it won't,

spk_0 who knows. Well, I mean, writing another edition is a good solution to that. I'm sure there's

spk_0 lots of things that are a lot of topics in technology ethics. And I mean that with lower case

spk_0 letters, not in the field of technology ethics, I think there must be a lot of principles that will

spk_0 last the test of time and that don't depend on some specific technology arising or not. Although,

spk_0 you know, some technologies like Genai, like climate technologies, the kind of social media trends that

spk_0 you outlined, no doubt, you know, being able to discuss these technology ethics, the general

spk_0 technology ethics in, you know, in that kind of relevant new context would be something that

spk_0 would be valuable to readers. But I actually, and so when I asked the question, the very first

spk_0 question that I asked you, the outset of this episode was in a nutshell, what is technology ethics?

spk_0 And I said that right after saying the title of your book. So it makes perfect sense that you

spk_0 explained what your book is, what you couldn't see is that I had the question written out in lower

spk_0 case, lower case to you lower case, you know, what is technology ethics? Can you define that?

spk_0 Well, the way that I defined it was on a note card, which I had stuck on my desk in front of me

spk_0 for several years, which was how do we maximize the benefits and minimize the harms of anything

spk_0 that we are investing in, building or using that could be described as a technology or a tool.

spk_0 And I went quite broad with my definition of technology. I don't want people just being

spk_0 like in church and PT. Technology is also a process. It's like, how do I automate? How do I

spk_0 manufacture? There's an incredible literature and history around what we mean by technology.

spk_0 And I wanted it to be broad like that so that people, a lot of people, again, this is a

spk_0 reflection of when I sort of came up in my training and career. But for a long time, IT, the IT

spk_0 department was like this sort of separate section in businesses and kind of even in the economy

spk_0 and kind of in life. And it was often, you know, sort of nerd. It was usually a guy. And

spk_0 if you were really going for business or coming up with an idea, you weren't necessarily in

spk_0 dialogue with those people or thinking about it, which I'm not saying is right, by the way,

spk_0 I actually think it was a disaster. But what I mean by this is by taking the broadest

spk_0 to definition of technology and actually shows the human technology relationship is part of what

spk_0 defines us as being human. We make tools. We've always been making tools. And if you ever get

spk_0 access to a baby, you will see really quickly from a very early age, how quickly little babies even

spk_0 are like weirdly hardwired. It's like we come out fashioning things, using things to do things. We're

spk_0 primed for that. And even other animals have tools and processes. So I was I took it. And again,

spk_0 this is a reflection of being locked in your house for two years under government orders while

spk_0 everybody's sick and dying around you. I do think that affected my thinking. But I was like,

spk_0 since I've got the time and we don't know when this is going to end, I'm going to take this right

spk_0 back. So my historical purview and the thinking of what I mean by what is technology ethics is big,

spk_0 divide it up. What is technology? We've just broken that down. Then we have to go into what is ethics,

spk_0 which is really fun. If you've never studied philosophy, which many people around the world don't

spk_0 get that as part of their educational curriculum, I did not either. We actually have that prepared

spk_0 as the very next question to ask you about the kitchen, which part? But actually, John Crone.

spk_0 Well, you've previously observed that the Anglo-Saxon world offers little training in philosophy

spk_0 compared to countries like France, leaving many without the intellectual tools for ethical debate.

spk_0 Yeah. So how can all these US tech organizations have a technology ethics initiative when

spk_0 their entire workforce, I bet you, has never been trained in terms of formal education,

spk_0 taken in class, etc. It's just bizarre to me. I was very lucky in that my own educational path

spk_0 is weird. So I grew up in the US and I did all my education in the US until the age of 22.

spk_0 And then I moved over to Europe. Because I did my first degree in French, I had to go to France.

spk_0 It's very difficult. I live in Paris and the amazing food for a year. But part of that was I was

spk_0 exposed to the French educational curriculum and I was very quickly informed by my French colleagues

spk_0 at the time that they all had to take a ton of philosophy in their high school. And they actually

spk_0 have to all do it no matter what your university degree is going to be. You have to pass a philosophy

spk_0 module just to graduate high school. And it's then like part of getting into university. So I

spk_0 loved that. It was like this is not something that we're just asking some arts and humanities

spk_0 graduates to do everyone does it. And they consider it really important. And it's part of being

spk_0 it's part of being French. Has two and some other cultures as well of course. But I just because

spk_0 that was the one that I accessed at a young age, I think it made an impression on me. And it made

spk_0 me think how do we, if we're going to talk about technology ethics, we have to situate ethics

spk_0 within the philosophical tradition. And so that I was like how do I explain that easily. And I had a

spk_0 Swiss army knife on my desk. I sort of fiddle with when I was procrastinating. And I was like

spk_0 the knife, the Swiss army knife as itself is philosophy. And when I open it up into its six

spk_0 component parts, I get the tweezers, the corkscrew, the whatever. These could be the six main branches

spk_0 of philosophy. And ethics is one of them. We'll call it the corkscrew. How do these all interact?

spk_0 And so if ethics isn't working for me to get through a problem, can I bring to bear the other

spk_0 the other five? And I don't want to just think about like Greek and Roman traditions of philosophy

spk_0 or French philosophy. I've got to go global because technology is for all humans. How would someone from

spk_0 China with a philosophical tradition in China approach this problem? How would a Russian approach it?

spk_0 How would someone from anywhere, Africa, Peru? Right? So that you can imagine. And again,

spk_0 you could do this until the end of time. I mean, you could go so deep with this. I wanted to also

spk_0 pull it back and be like, just keep it real. This book needs to be a short guide to technology ethics.

spk_0 I want people to read it. And it can't be something that a CEO or a or a software developer, a

spk_0 product manager is going to go, Jesus Christ, she's going down some boring academic path. I need this

spk_0 to do my job. So I had to keep it super real, really actionable insights. But to be like,

spk_0 FYI, if you get stuck, here's another way to approach it. Here's how these people have done it in

spk_0 time with these case studies, with these examples. So it was this constant like toggling. It was like playing

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spk_0 designed for how data scientists really work. So on the note of developing your book and coming up

spk_0 with these ideas of how technology ethics are treated, not just in the West, but all around the

spk_0 world. Something that you've brought up a number of times is the idea of whether we should have

spk_0 something like the Hippocratic Oath that they have in medicine for technology.

spk_0 So it doesn't seem like that's, I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's probably a practical

spk_0 thing that we're going to have like an international technology Hippocratic Oath come about. It's a

spk_0 nice idea. But so maybe instead of a symbolic Oath, are there practical non-negotiable checkpoints

spk_0 that maybe should be embedded into tech product development life cycles or, you know, yeah,

spk_0 there's some kind of tool set like a Swiss Army knife that technologists could work with

spk_0 that maybe is enforced in some way and isn't considered to be a luxury.

spk_0 I think that you've hit on the rub of it, which is the enforcement question. The reason I liked

spk_0 the Hippocratic Oath, by the way, is not because it's like a mandatory thing, like not even all medical

spk_0 medical schools are on the world require that now and it hasn't always been required for doctors

spk_0 and it was actually recreated or rebooted, if you will, after the Second World War because, of course,

spk_0 as we all know, the Nuremberg trials after the Second World War, there was a special doctor's trial

spk_0 because doctors were actually very instrumental in the Nazi regime's murder of many citizens

spk_0 of several European countries and they had a special trial for that. And so that led to a sort of

spk_0 reckoning and a crisis within the medical community after the war, which was like how is it

spk_0 that a bunch of people who are supposedly trained to help keep people alive and indeed healthy and

spk_0 thriving, how on earth were they among the first instruments of murder in a tyrannical regime.

spk_0 And I was really fascinated by that because my second area of study was history and specifically

spk_0 World War II history, so I was like, Jesus, and they revisited the training of doctors because of

spk_0 what happened in World War II. That reboot came as a response to and acknowledged

spk_0 universally discussed around the world problem of horror. And I was fascinated by that because of the

spk_0 way that we think about trust, doctors tend to be quite trusted, you know, put a stethoscope and a

spk_0 white coat on them and you're like, oh, you'll do what they say. It's very difficult for a lot of

spk_0 people to push back against a doctor, they have more training than us, etc. And often when you

spk_0 approach a doctor, it's because you're on well, you're injured, you're sick, or your family member

spk_0 is, so you need to know you can trust them. So I was thinking about those sorts of concepts,

spk_0 you know, the historical reality of trusted, intelligent people betraying that trust in the worst

spk_0 possible way that they possibly could. How do you then come back from that? How do you restore

spk_0 trust to a profession? Why do some medical schools do something like a Hippocratic Oath and some

spk_0 don't? The fact by the way that the original Hippocratic Oath versus what said today's

spk_0 largely rewritten. So what was they don't do in Greek? A lot of them have rewritten it and I kind of

spk_0 like that. It's basically just, you know, the first one is your first do-no harm, which I think

spk_0 is totally appropriate for technologists to embrace as well. And then second, which is the

spk_0 mission statement in my book is like, how do I maximize the benefits and minimize the harm,

spk_0 such as I personally think is a bit more realistic for utilitarian way of thinking about it,

spk_0 which is there's going to be some harm. Maybe you cannot make the omelets without breaking some eggs.

spk_0 So fine, choose it. Choose it mindfully, build it in, have a discussion, it could be democratic,

spk_0 you know, we should all be thinking about this, that implies that people have to be around the table,

spk_0 there's knowledge, there's consent, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. So that was the only reason I was

spk_0 thinking about it. And the reason I liked it for the medical establishment and thought it might be

spk_0 useful for technologists is precisely because it isn't enforceable. It's not about getting a

spk_0 driver's license, like you are not allowed to drive your car unless you have a driver's license

spk_0 and insurance. And if you don't have those things, you could get arrested, sued, et cetera.

spk_0 This is more like a, this is part of joining this community. It's an ethos. And it's a sign I would hope

spk_0 in the best engineering schools, the best business schools, et cetera, that we teach ethics.

spk_0 And indeed, that is actually true in lots of professions. So lawyers have this,

spk_0 they count and have this, civil servants have it. You know, here in the UK, the civil service ethics

spk_0 code is really serious. I have several friends who are civil servants here and I really admire them.

spk_0 Their sense of commitment, something larger than themselves, is part of their professional training.

spk_0 So I think it would be lovely. This is just my own take on it. For technologists to have that

spk_0 in their formation and for them to think about it a lot. You know, if we treated our

spk_0 careers as a vocation, you know, why do you get out of bed in the morning? What are you building?

spk_0 That would be something that I think could help not just with how we design and live and create,

spk_0 but also for our relationship with everybody else, you know, the users of our products, our customers,

spk_0 but we're also our family, our friends, et cetera. So it's just an articulation of the valley

spk_0 statement, but I don't think we need to add more regulation to it in the sense of, you know,

spk_0 you can't code unless you've done this thing or you can't create something unless you've got to,

spk_0 the world does not need that. But you know, nothing, you don't have to be regulated to do the

spk_0 right thing. You could just decide to, you know, not be an asshole.

spk_0 Yeah, it's kind of this idea, even when you said, you know, the first line, I guess, of a typical

spk_0 hypochratico of the first, you know, harm, it's interesting how with technology, often the primary

spk_0 incentive is first make a profit. That's like our first generate ARR.

spk_0 Well, is it though? Like, I would say that's for like companies. That's for a lot of people

spk_0 sure, but like a lot of people are out just tinkering, right? Or like necessities, the mother of

spk_0 all invention, you know, the person who invented the washing machine, you know, we're, we're, what?

spk_0 I'm just looking around and say, you know, I'm like, everything in my house, something.

spk_0 Toilet.

spk_0 And you know, tool, yeah, you're usually doing it to solve a problem, right? Where you're like,

spk_0 God damn, I cannot take this anymore. I want scissors for left-handed people.

spk_0 Instead, you know, I know the world is mainly right-handed, but there's a whole crew people

spk_0 who are not being served and they can't scissor things without hurting their hands.

spk_0 I shall invent it, right? I think it's often, hopefully, coming from that.

spk_0 Yes, there are people who always start with the profit, motive first, give for them.

spk_0 But I think a lot of, a lot of innovators are more, they're problem solvers.

spk_0 And then they're like, oh man, if I did this, I can make bank, you know, why not?

spk_0 You know, there's nothing wrong with that.

spk_0 But I think the best staff comes from solving problems.

spk_0 It makes a lot of sense. A related topic that you've talked about before

spk_0 is this idea of tools like forks versus meals, use cases. And that seems to kind of be something

spk_0 that we can, it seems like a direction we can go in from the conversation that we've just been

spk_0 having where, you know, what kinds of situations in technology

spk_0 mean that we should be regulating the fork, the tool that we're using as opposed to the use case,

spk_0 the meal. Yes. This was again, I workshopped the book so much when I was writing it.

spk_0 There's a whole group of long-suffering family and friends and colleagues who were like,

spk_0 I think, dreading calls by the end. That's like, would you like to be regulated in this way or

spk_0 that? They were like, could you just not call? I really thought about this though a lot because

spk_0 of this whole thing that regulation can stifle innovation. We hear this a lot, particularly in

spk_0 the United States where regulation is often a 30-word. And yet, and again, sorry to keep going

spk_0 back to healthcare, but I just think about it mainly in terms of trust. Do you want to get into

spk_0 an airplane that does not meet certain standards or safety, for instance? Do you want to put your

spk_0 baby into a baby carrier into a car that does not meet health and safety standards? Like,

spk_0 absolutely not. Of course, you do not. Do you want to have a doctor perform on you who's not

spk_0 completely using drugs that have been tested, tools that have been tested? The doctor has to be

spk_0 board certified, right? All this stuff. We regulate all the time and nobody's saying that's the

spk_0 kindred innovation on the contrary. The regulation is like a standard guarantee and it's an accountability

spk_0 mechanism for failing to meet that standard fabulous. So I thought about that a lot where I was like

spk_0 forks, which everyone at least knows what they are. It doesn't, if they don't use them around the

spk_0 world, at least note they are. And we can make a similar argument I'm sure for chopsticks too.

spk_0 I just wanted something like you're using it every day and you're using it multiple times a day.

spk_0 That's a tool. Fine. Do I need to regulate that or do I want to regulate ways that I could use

spk_0 this fork? So I started just, you know, it's that classic thing when you get hired by somebody like,

spk_0 you know, it could be 32 ways that you could use a brick. I was like, it could be 32 ways and I could

spk_0 use this fork. You could use the fork for eating, but I could also like literally stand right next

spk_0 to you and like stab your hand or your eye or something or, you know, go for the jugular and murder you.

spk_0 So two totally like valid use cases, one of which we definitely want regulated. You should not murder

spk_0 anyone or indeed cause bodily harm. A fork being one of the ways you could do that. So that's

spk_0 what I want to regulate. Like note killing, no stabbing, none of the harming. We don't have to regulate

spk_0 forks. Forks are free of regulation in this particular weird use case that I'm coming up with here

spk_0 because I want you to come up with all the ways you could use a fork. In the UK at least knives

spk_0 are regulated though. That's interesting. I mean, that's a nice problem here. I know I think about

spk_0 that a lot too. And I think that's also, I think that's probably why in the US guns are so

spk_0 are so lightly regulated because so many people use them to eat. Wow. I can't talk about this

spk_0 often in men men. I plead the fifth. I'll say the fifth.

spk_0 I have an inside American joke. Yes. First amendment versus the fifth. Always so tricky when talking

spk_0 the second. Yeah, I just look, we all want to innovate, but we also want to be safe. And we

spk_0 just kind of want like a hopefully non violent, non killing life if we can. So what I was trying

spk_0 to come up with was ways to get people thinking about it because again, if you go down a technical

spk_0 route, people get psyched out when talking about regulation. The lawyers get involved. It's very

spk_0 messy for everyone. But if you take it back to like, how would you discuss this with kids? Because

spk_0 we're all kids on the inside. For me, it was forks. I'm like, this I could do this with it. I could

spk_0 do that with it. One of them we want to regulate. One of them we don't. And I want you to do all the

spk_0 other things you want to do with the fork as long as you are not doing these things. And those things

spk_0 should probably actually be quite minimal, you know, like the 10 commandments easy to remember

spk_0 and follow for a reason. So we probably want to regulate as lightly as possible. But when we

spk_0 regulate, we want it to be very clear. Everybody understands it. And easy to enforce. It's very

spk_0 clear if I'm stabbing you or not. Right? Like this should not be ambiguous. Hopefully. Hopefully.

spk_0 Yeah. So moving on from these kinds of general technology ethics ideas to now things

spk_0 that are newer than covered in your books. So talking about Gen AI a bit, for example,

spk_0 long before the rise of Gen AI as a society, we've grappled with the commercial transformation

spk_0 of our physical places and those that we visit as tourists or as civilians in a city into uniform,

spk_0 inauthentic and even low quality but efficient experiences like fast food. And sociologists have

spk_0 called this things like disneyfication or McDonald'sization. And we go from, you know, having

spk_0 you know, these diverse town centers to kind of strip balls. And with the advent of the internet,

spk_0 our digital spaces went from the kind of serendipitous chaos but unapologetically honest spaces

spk_0 of the early internet like geocities and my space to today's ad infested low attention span

spk_0 bakedness of social media, even news media. And so there's a Canadian writer named Cory Doctoro

spk_0 or Doctor Of, depending on how along that person's family has been in Canada, I guess.

spk_0 And the word that he uses, I actually can't say on this show because if I, well, I can,

spk_0 I guess I can swear but we have to bleep it out. It's a clean show. So I'll call it

spk_0 and poopification but instead of poop, he used a word that rhymes with hit.

spk_0 And I think you are familiar with that term because your head was nodding as I started to mention

spk_0 Cory Doctoro of. And so now in the age of Gen.A.I. that was a very long intro to my question.

spk_0 Now in the age of Gen.A.I, it's estimated in few short years the line share of internet content

spk_0 will be AI slop low quality AI generated content. Last week at the time of us recording,

spk_0 the Harvard Business Review I think did a big really popular story on AI slop even in enterprises

spk_0 where like so many of the emails and presentations that people are now being forced to go through

spk_0 are machine generated and nobody even proofread it or it's not even necessarily aligned with a

spk_0 human in the organization's views but it's wasting tons of time internally. So with that now in our

spk_0 midst, how can we, I don't know if you have any ideas, well, you probably have lots of thoughts on

spk_0 everything and I've said so I should give you the opportunity to just say that. But then how can we

spk_0 break this pattern and preserve diverse authentic thoughtful conversations and experiences in the

spk_0 future? We're to even start. I sometimes think we have to go back to a very basic question of what

spk_0 is the internet for. I loved your harkening back to the Helsing days. I wonder if it was though,

spk_0 my understanding is that the internet is largely a vehicle for pornography. So like is the internet

spk_0 so useful as all of that? And no judgment on that. I'm just here to relay the message.

spk_0 So there's that. Then there's what everybody's doing. I don't know. The analysis, as you were saying

spk_0 this, I was thinking about how I used to be a power user of Twitter before it was acquired by Mr.

spk_0 Elon Musk. And I sometimes felt bad about this. I needed it for my job. It was actually very useful

spk_0 for a very long time. And then there was a period where I think it was less useful and quite

spk_0 addictive for me. And then you know, I must've bought it and it really became less useful. But I

spk_0 stayed on it. It's sort of like a smoker analogy. I was just using it.

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spk_0 Yes, we have this. This came up in our research, not only the smoky analogy, but you've in the past,

spk_0 you've likened Twitter to an old-fashioned smoking lounge in a Frankfurt airport, expensive,

spk_0 dangerous, and stinky. That's a quote. Jesus, where did I say that publicly? I'm just

spk_0 thinking, I'll stand by that statement, by the way. I do. Yeah, because everyone's just shouting and

spk_0 screaming at each other, and there is so much crap, and it's even worse now. So I was actually very

spk_0 grateful to Mr. Muscatnian because I've been wanting to kick my Twitter habit for a while, or my

spk_0 X habit for a while, and he made it so useless for me. That it was very easy to delete my account. I

spk_0 was like, do you know what? I actually don't need this anymore. Thank you. This used to be really

spk_0 important to me. And I'm not a smoker, but I have friends in my life who are. And they've said that

spk_0 smoking was very difficult for them to quit. Sometimes it has a use for them when they're stressed,

spk_0 or they're just out in a bar or a club, and they just really want to have a cigarette, and it's

spk_0 hard for them. And I sympathize. And I felt that way a little bit of social media, which we know is

spk_0 this engineer-tube-beak you addicted. And I'm just saying, I sometimes think, we know that social

spk_0 media is bad for you. We know that being online is probably really bad for you and for democracy,

spk_0 et cetera. And I sometimes wonder, maybe the only way to get everybody offline is for the internet.

spk_0 Just let it burn itself down if it comes really bad. And then we'll all just be like, do you know

spk_0 what's going to be more useful? Like in that world where it's all, you know, burning, and it's, you know,

spk_0 goes to a demo room time, is going back to books and the library and in-person meetings and seminars

spk_0 and education and like the things that we used to do before this whole thing started. Like some of

spk_0 us are old enough to remember what this world looked like. It was not so bad in some ways. So I don't

spk_0 know. I mean, you're catching me on a sort of touchy night, clearly. But I'm just saying, I'm not

spk_0 convinced that the internet has always been so amazing. It has been for obviously wonderful things.

spk_0 We're talking digitally across the internet's fabulous. But let's not fool ourselves. There's

spk_0 always been a bunch of stuff that's really awful. The dark web is a complete cesspool. And it's

spk_0 also never been equal for everybody. Like some people have been having great experiences online.

spk_0 And some people have been having terrible experiences online the entire time. It's just that now all

spk_0 of us are. And AI has like at least democratized, democratized what Mr. Dr. Rowe has termed his

spk_0 and deep effication. Spot on. So the question is if the internet's good to move on to solutions,

spk_0 what do we want to do? What worked for us and what didn't? So there's like Tim Berners-Lee,

spk_0 Sir Tim Berners-Lee has a new book out where he's talking about what he why he built the world

spk_0 wide web as he did, why he made it like a public resource. He was not somebody who was building

spk_0 for profit first, right? He had a different motive and thank goodness for him and his crew. He's got

spk_0 a whole other plan. I'm sure other people will only get involved if they find there's a way to make

spk_0 money from that. So there's that. It's an opportunity for us to completely rethink what we want

spk_0 from the internet. If we make this version really bad, but it has been really bad for a long time.

spk_0 It looks like that book is called This Is For Everyone. Is that the book that you're talking about?

spk_0 Yeah. The unfinished story of the world wide web. Yeah, and I think he's, you know, he's an

spk_0 absolutely visionary. And he's thinking about technology in a really different way than what we've

spk_0 been discussing so far, like a driven by the profit motive. And maybe there's somebody out there

spk_0 who's got more cash who wants to help back something like that. I am worried though, like based

spk_0 on human history, we'll probably have to completely destroy the internet for people to then be

spk_0 willing to do this. Because right now it still serves quite a lot of people. And first of all,

spk_0 we all can shop online and do the stuff we want to do. But second, it's very useful for businesses

spk_0 and governments and people who want to inflame emotions and all that stuff, you know. I wonder if there's

spk_0 kinds of things that people could be doing as individuals. Like as individual listeners,

spk_0 I wonder if there's things that they can be doing to make their internet experience better. So for

spk_0 example, something that I've been doing for a long time that has vastly improved my experience

spk_0 of the internet is using an ad blocker, which is free. And just there in your browser and it

spk_0 stops a lot of ads. And there's things like if I go on, I only go on Instagram in a desktop web

spk_0 browser because they only serve ads in the phone version of Instagram because they have,

spk_0 yeah, they have so few users of Instagram on desktop that they're just, they don't cater to that

spk_0 for advertisers at all. That's a useful tip. Yeah, even the like the the Instagram shorts,

spk_0 what do they call it? I didn't want to know. It's stories. Stories. Yes, stories.

spk_0 The reals. Exactly. Stories. Yeah, the reals are just all videos, I guess, that are in the timeline.

spk_0 Anyway, but yeah, so you know, those are those are kind of helpful. Something else that I have

spk_0 personally really enjoyed as something that's been useful to me in terms of not getting stuck in the

spk_0 in this news cycle, this kind of fear based news cycle that it seems like a lot of news reporting

spk_0 is based on. I think it might be a bit different in the UK, especially without outlets like the BBC

spk_0 and all of those ethical codes that the civil servants working at the BBC have gone through that

spk_0 you talked about earlier in the episode. It does seem like, you know, you're getting a lot more

spk_0 information relative to kind of junk or just stuff that's designed to inflame, inflame your

spk_0 emotions. But in the US where I live today, a lot of, you know, the the news stations are

spk_0 actually like this podcast, they're ad supported. And so the objective is to keep people engaged

spk_0 as much as possible. We try on this podcast to do it with great informative conversations, but

spk_0 a lot of a lot of new shows have learned that the way to keep people engaged is through fear and

spk_0 emotions. And you know, that that seems to be good for their bottom line. So some so I'm working my

spk_0 way to a solution here is that one thing for me is that I subscribe to a physical subscription of

spk_0 the economist. And there's two ads in, you know, this physical economist magazine that I get.

spk_0 But I think because your, I don't know, you're a paying customer as opposed to just relying on ads,

spk_0 you're getting, I think you're getting deeper coverage, more thoughts on things. And

spk_0 well, actually, we're talking about how to make the internet better. And I'm saying, by not,

spk_0 by getting a physical coffee. So I don't know. But anyway, maybe, maybe me giving those

spk_0 couple of examples gives some ideas for ideas that you might have for listeners on what they can do

spk_0 to make their experience on the internet better. Oh, man, I'm super nervous about recommending

spk_0 anybody doing anything because I don't, I don't particularly feel I have an example of a life to

spk_0 follow. What I would just say for myself or what is worth I'm putting it out is I try to really

spk_0 be intentional when, you know, when I'm on it's because I'm researching usually and on my research

spk_0 tests and interests are super eclectic solving looking all sorts of stuff. And I often used to use

spk_0 social media as like a bulletin board. So I would just be, you know, very rarely would you get my views

spk_0 on anything. I was more just sort of posting for myself articles, fit with then go back and look at

spk_0 or wanting to mark them. And that started for my time as a political risk analyst when I had to cover

spk_0 the entire European Union and the ECB and the European Commission. And then EU relations to the

spk_0 wider world, I needed a place to file all of that. And at that time Twitter was super useful back in

spk_0 2010. And I carried that on when I started doing technology work full time. Now, now I want my

spk_0 brain back. And that's been a very active and intentional process. So all of the apps are not on my

spk_0 phone anymore. I have to, if I want to go online to sort around, I have to do that on my phone. If I'm

spk_0 using Google, I will have to go to the website of a newspaper and I will read the newspaper. I don't

spk_0 want the social media curated experience anymore of that at all. And I'm trying to stay away from

spk_0 anything that makes me, which is difficult because I'm still a US citizen. And I'm living in the UK,

spk_0 where we're having some very interesting political conversations at the moment, but seeing things that

spk_0 are inflammatory, make you angry and upset. Sometimes that's an appropriate response to stuff, but

spk_0 as you know, as you've said, the outrage every day is just making certain brolic arcs really rich

spk_0 and making the rest of us really stressed and anxious and not working with our communities to

spk_0 solve problems. So I'm trying to just be away from that. And I spent a lot of time reading books

spk_0 and in libraries or in archives or out with people. I spend more time now with people, I would say,

spk_0 than I ever used to before. And that is a very deliberate correction. I travel a lot for my

spk_0 job. So when I say I'm like, just hanging out with people, I'm like, okay, with my friends, and I'm

spk_0 checking in, because that would be a bubble. So I spend a lot of time particularly going around

spk_0 France and Germany. That's been my focus for the past couple of years here in the UK. I go back to the

spk_0 US a lot. I've been flying to the Middle East a lot of conversations there. You know, have have

spk_0 good research opportunity. Will travel. I want to be on the ground because I would often see

spk_0 my mom would call it and be like, oh my god, where you are. It's so violent. I'm watching it on

spk_0 CNN. I'm literally here. I don't know where you are watching. The CNN is found the one place where

spk_0 somebody is set a garbage can on fire, but I am here and like everybody's chilling out. And so I felt

spk_0 a bit like president chump, I think, is feeling at the moment where he's like, is Portland in a civil

spk_0 war outrage scenario? Or am I watching something from 2020? Am I seeing reality? And it must be

spk_0 actually very hard for a president to give him the benefit of the doubt. He can't just go and like

spk_0 fly to Portland and check it out. He's relying on his people. I don't have that as a researcher.

spk_0 I'm going anywhere. And so I'm trying to do that much more. And it's time consuming. It's expensive.

spk_0 It means my research is slower, et cetera. But it means I'm really grounded now. And when I'm

spk_0 seeing and hearing, and I have other people on the ground as part of my network, they're telling me

spk_0 that I'm like, no, that's not what's happening here. Or yeah, you need to get over here and check this out.

spk_0 I like that answer a lot. It had lots of useful tips. I like how you started it with, I don't know

spk_0 if I'm going to have any tips, but then you ended up having tons in there. Are they tips? Like, is

spk_0 that actionable? Like, go travel around and like, just go see stuff. But, well, you need to go take a

spk_0 look around for yourself. Just, yeah. Coach, you don't go see it. I'm going to be in Chicago soon.

spk_0 I'm super interested to go and see what's happening there. Because as a former Chicago inn,

spk_0 albeit of a suburban nature, but still, Chicago is always in my life and in my heart. And I'm

spk_0 want to see, like, are there federal agents running around with masks pulling people off the

spk_0 streets? Because that's what I'm seeing on social media. But I will be able to go and see it for

spk_0 myself. And perhaps film it for myself very soon. And like, that as a citizen, I need to decide how

spk_0 upset I'm getting. We're not. And I need to know that what I'm seeing is what I am seeing. That's

spk_0 what I think is tricky now because of AI is we don't know if what we're seeing is real anymore.

spk_0 Welcome to the metaphysics part of the show. Yeah. The travel thing could be tricky for some people

spk_0 and for some listeners. But a lot of the other tips that you had, you know, like spending more time

spk_0 around people avoiding apps on their phone, you know, the social media apps on their phone or

spk_0 news apps on their phone going to library reading books. These are all things that everyone else can do.

spk_0 And so, you know, related topic, you previously said that the mature, this is a quote from you.

spk_0 The majority, having a fight with your partner, they're like, you said,

spk_0 did I watch you sign down on this statement? You said that the majority of people on this planet

spk_0 are not involved in cryptocurrency and they're not on Twitter. And yet, we're hearing such a huge

spk_0 disproportionate amount about cryptocurrency and, you know, whoever's on Twitter, providing their

spk_0 reviews. So as a broadcaster that communicates complex AI issues and real world priorities related

spk_0 to it, like climate change and the future of work, how do you counter sensationalist narratives,

spk_0 maybe in those personal conversations that you had, but also maybe on air?

spk_0 I mean, I've got a lot of very constructively critical friends who are not involved in tech at all

spk_0 who are like, you know, be like, oh my god, this is happening within video and they're like, so

spk_0 what? Like literally, I don't care. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna stop talking at the dinner party now.

spk_0 They don't care. And that's actually genuinely, and that's really helpful because I have to remember

spk_0 anything anyone working day in, day out in whatever field they're in. We happen to be in technology,

spk_0 but I'm sure that, you know, cardiologists have their own obsessive favorite topics too,

spk_0 that no one else is aware of that for cardiologists, a really big scandal or whatever.

spk_0 I don't know why I'm just picking cardiologists, but you know, it's also kind of funny right now,

spk_0 for a lot of cardiologists, it is probably Nvidia machine vision algorithms and things like that.

spk_0 No, I was just thinking like, what is inside baseball, you know, so it's like journalists love to talk

spk_0 about it. Also, what's the easy story to get? So the companies are pumping out PR, or it's just

spk_0 lots of money or never, but again, step out into the streets of your neighborhood and be like,

spk_0 hey, Nvidia is doing like five billion in Intel, 100 billion in OpenAI. What do you think about GPUs?

spk_0 And they're just like, I'm sorry, could you like literally just stop talking? And you're kind of like,

spk_0 ah, okay, if I walked down the street here in Hackney, is this relevant? And if you ask people,

spk_0 because then you can stop talking to like, you're right, please tell me, what would you like to know

spk_0 about technology, which is a thing that I do a lot with people? What would you like us to put on the

spk_0 program? What would you like me to research for you? What is an important problem that you'd like

spk_0 to see solved in this technology part of the solution or not? Because maybe it isn't.

spk_0 People are like, look, what subject should my kids be studying in school and potentially if they

spk_0 were to go into university or some sort of post age 18 educational environment or work environment?

spk_0 What do they need to do to get a job? Foulon, second, I'm already working, I'm the parent, or I'm

spk_0 28 or whatever. And now people are telling me I have to, you know, either use AI or be exited to

spk_0 quote Accenture, which is what these people have done to things to language you. Use AI or

spk_0 use your job. They're like, how do I do that? How do I re-skill? How do I stay around a vent?

spk_0 What should I be doing? Which I not be doing? If you're talking to companies, it's like,

spk_0 there's all this money going around with AI, but I need to know, you know, where do I invest my money?

spk_0 I don't have an endless amount of money to invest. So where is the best return on investment for my

spk_0 organization, my sector? What's everybody doing? What are the risks? Those things. That is where it gets

spk_0 helpful. And again, talking to doctors, how they're using AI versus talking to a designer,

spk_0 how they're using AI, where AI is such a broad term. These people have, you know, it's that whole

spk_0 thing where you stand depends upon where you stand. So depending on what you're doing in your life,

spk_0 you're going to have really different questions and concerns. So as a broadcast, you're in my job,

spk_0 which I'm sure I fill out daily, but I do try is to hold all of that. And remember that one

spk_0 I'm on the radio or if I'm on television or if I'm interviewing, I'm trying to ask questions that

spk_0 I feel like the audience would want me to ask if I'm lucky enough to have a guest or to have been

spk_0 invited into to report. What would, what would everybody be like, yes, yes, she's asked that question.

spk_0 Or oh, that's a really good question I hadn't thought about, but that's quite useful. And then they

spk_0 might be able to go in, you know, actionable insights, tell it to someone in their lives and it's

spk_0 helpful. Getting into some of the inside baseball stuff that can be really fun if you're having a

spk_0 wonky conversation is less useful for most people. And everybody has to decide where they are.

spk_0 There's a there's a role for inside baseball, absolutely. And I say this love baseball.

spk_0 The kind of work I'm trying to do is talking to the widest number of people around the world,

spk_0 sharing findings. And I ultimately would like this to be informative,

spk_0 actionable insights, possibly entertaining, but I'd rather it be more informative than entertaining.

spk_0 Genai and classic machine learning are great at solving a lot of problems, but they are not

spk_0 built for complex decision problems. Even a slew of agents can't deal with all the possibilities

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spk_0 I mean, I think you're accomplishing that in everything that I've seen that you've done.

spk_0 I know. Well, if I know as you get zero viewers for this or listeners for this, it's hard.

spk_0 Getting out of the way is also quite a good tip. I will often ask people if I'm interviewing them,

spk_0 what is a question that you would love or do you have any questions that you'd like for me to ask you?

spk_0 Because you can go in as an interviewer thinking, I've spotted up on this person, I've studied the

spk_0 area, I've got my questions. And you have no idea where that person is on that day

spk_0 or what they've been working on that they haven't gone public with yet, what's on their mind.

spk_0 And also how few people will ever actually just ask them. So if you ask them, then they're like,

spk_0 actually, I want to tell you this or this. I'm worried about this or I just came from this

spk_0 meeting and I'm just thinking it through. You can get some of your best, your best broadcasting

spk_0 moments can be if you invite somebody to just go, what's on your mind and get them the space.

spk_0 And that means you have to zip the lip, which I shall now do. That's a really great idea.

spk_0 I should probably just ask that kind of question more to start the podcast with what's on your mind.

spk_0 Yeah, I like that. What would you like people to ask you that people never ask you?

spk_0 So some of the some people have like fascinating answers to that question. And you're like,

spk_0 oh my god, they just not feel heard. Do you have something? A question that you wish I

spk_0 might just sleep mostly. No, because I'm not I'm not in the mode at the moment of like

spk_0 I don't have a product I'm selling. First of all, there's nothing I'm flogging where I'm like,

spk_0 actually, yes, I'd like to tell you about my podcast and my sub stack. I don't have these things.

spk_0 And I'm also right now working on a bunch of stuff that is not about technology. So I don't

spk_0 think it'd be really relevant to this audience, but

spk_0 yeah, I mean, that maybe that actually would be a thing. It's like, how does a how does a researcher

spk_0 stay fresh and creative because you are constantly having to digest everybody else's stuff.

spk_0 There's a risk that you just become an aggregator and an amplifier of other people's thinking.

spk_0 You know, so to come up with your if you want to truly

spk_0 contribute in an original way and when you do something like a PhD, you have to you have to say

spk_0 it like this is where the body of knowledge is and this is the gap that I have identified that

spk_0 is missing that I'm going to now work on and I shall attempt to fill the gap and not see if they

spk_0 get your blessed with the powers that be they give you some funding and off you go and you come

spk_0 back four and a half years later exhausted with forehead wrinkles and they're like, okay,

spk_0 have you filled the gap or not not as your thesis and you defend it? Stamp at the undernaught,

spk_0 you know, job done, good luck or go back and revise. That should I hope be where a researcher

spk_0 is approaching this from, which is, you know, how am I advancing knowledge? I don't know how you do

spk_0 that if you're just busy aggregating everybody else's knowledge all the time. So that's, you know,

spk_0 on the one hand, you're doing a permanent literature review, if you will, you're constantly

spk_0 having to be aware of everybody else's thoughts. For you to be like, right, I have finished a bunch

spk_0 of research. I now have a clean runway. Where is what is what is not being looked at? And I'm looking

spk_0 over here at a blank wall right now. Like, what is not being looked at? And over there is my bookshelf,

spk_0 I'm like, that's all being looked at. There's this whole space here. What are the areas that I think

spk_0 are underserved and that would be useful? Am I the person to do it? So I have the skill set to do

spk_0 it. Who would I have to work with to do it? Then you get into the house and stuff. And that, I try to,

spk_0 I try to play in that space. It's very hard for me as a researcher because you're often very lonely.

spk_0 You're like, I'm going to go work on the thing that I don't think other people are working on.

spk_0 You know, it's like you and two other people that you find on the planet who are interested in it.

spk_0 And then eventually everybody, you know, by the, if you've done your job right and you get there

spk_0 before everybody else does and you're like, well, look at this diamond, then everybody piles in.

spk_0 By the time everybody wants to pile in, I'm gone. I'm long gone because I'm onto the next

spk_0 underserved thing, I hope. That's the goal. That's not mean I achieve it, but that's at least

spk_0 the spirit with which I attempt to wake up every day.

spk_0 I'm glad you proposed this, this meta question of what question should I ask? You had a great one

spk_0 and a great answer. Certainly something that I struggle with a lot myself is, you know, we do 104

spk_0 episodes a year of this show. And so a lot of it is, it is just aggregation and letting other people

spk_0 have the floor. And so this idea of, you know, what is my, what is my contribution?

spk_0 I would actually push back on that and say, you're not disaggregating. Absolutely not. You're part

spk_0 of a conversation. Like, you just pulled something out of me that I haven't thought of before.

spk_0 What would I like to be asked? You know, like, you've created a space and you've, you prompt

spk_0 questions and you're doing that 104 episodes a year. That's huge. You will have created things

spk_0 like guarantee that are original and new for both you and your guests and then your sum,

spk_0 you know, just your own output will have its own sum. That will be, you know, unique. So there's,

spk_0 you know, there's a rule for that. And we see that in research all the time. There's like,

spk_0 are you interpreting and offering new interpretation? Or are you also like going out and being like,

spk_0 look, I found a new element for the periodic table, right? There's room for both. And we are not all

spk_0 able to go or just even wanting to go. That's not why we are motivated to go find that new

spk_0 periodic table element. Some of us, it's like, I'm actually going to do a new interpretation of

spk_0 the works of Shakespeare. And, you know, everything in between. So I think what you're doing is,

spk_0 is way more than aggregating for what it's worth. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Her.

spk_0 How did your feet? So I promised early, and one of your first, and one of the first minutes of

spk_0 this episode, we got talking about climate change in some way or other, oh, because we were talking

spk_0 about weather in the UK. So it's very beginning of the show. And I promised that later in the show,

spk_0 we would get to some climate change related content. And so here it comes.

spk_0 Earlier this year, you were featured in an article called, this is a funny title to this article.

spk_0 I don't really understand it. It's something because it's to do with imaging and for me,

spk_0 imaging informatics. So the title of this article is Radiology Response to Launch of UK AI Action Plan.

spk_0 And yeah, in it, you warn that the UK's energy grid is not fit for purpose to support the

spk_0 government's ambitious AI action plan. So how can policy makers get the right balance between

spk_0 the excitement of AI growth and the very real infrastructural limits of energy and sustainability?

spk_0 I mean, first of all, I really want to see this article because I'm very worried about this.

spk_0 It is true though. I mean, the UK electricity grid is not fit for purpose. And that's the whole

spk_0 thing is we have a prime minister who announced at the beginning of this year that we're going to

spk_0 mainline AI into the veins of the nation, which is in a very British way of phrasing that, by the

spk_0 way, so I feel whoever phrased that came from North America and were had recently visited and was

spk_0 feeling really pepped up. And it sort of left everybody going, what? Now we've just had the US UK

spk_0 tech deal announcement when President Trump came over accompanied by an entourage of US tech leaders

spk_0 and announced a lot of money. That was being invested in the UK. Largely, it must be said for AI

spk_0 infrastructure, which we do need. Everybody needs. There's a country on earth that has enough

spk_0 AI infrastructure and let's just like keep it simple to data centers for now.

spk_0 To do what they want to do, which is why President Trump and entourage also went to the Middle East

spk_0 earlier this year. I happen to be there really at the same time. So it's quite interesting to see

spk_0 what was going on in the energy effects that that had in Qatar and the United Earth Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

spk_0 Because they need more. They're just, everything's just more and more in this field. So that's fine.

spk_0 We want that. But then we have to get down to the infrastructure supporting the infrastructure.

spk_0 AI infrastructure, data centers in this case, sits on top of our existing

spk_0 infrastructure. So let me speak of my lovely adopted home here in the North Atlantic, the UK,

spk_0 which has the highest electricity prices in Europe. As we all know, living here, watching our bills go

spk_0 up every year. What is it going to mean to stress that grid with some big energy-guzzling data

spk_0 centers and the amount that gets great to say we're going to build them. But now we now we have to

spk_0 start getting like dirty, literally dirty. We're going to dig it up. Where's it going to happen?

spk_0 How are we going to plug it in? Are we going to have rolling blackouts? What's the plan? Is it

spk_0 oil and gas powered? Is it nuclear powered? Is it renewables powered? Right? So like what's happening

spk_0 there? Then there's the fact if you live in the UK, you will know that we've been having ever

spk_0 increasing heat waves that I have mentioned. We had, like, I think I record four this summer.

spk_0 And it was actually quite scary. I mean, you really see the effects in nature here.

spk_0 But what that also means is temperatures are rising. And we're not getting a rain. Something I

spk_0 believe that's happening in the US as well, where I think 48 out of 50 states were in drought.

spk_0 So you've got a technology that is heavily water intensive, heavily energy intensive. Here in

spk_0 this country, you have a grid that does not fit for purpose. It's very old. Massive, massive investment

spk_0 will be required to get all of this for purpose in a country where we are seeing the government

spk_0 currently having its party conference saying they're going to have to break one of their promises

spk_0 not to raise taxes because we're broke. And the bond markets are punishing us. Not a phenomenon

spk_0 that is unique to the UK. I was just in France recently and they're having their own problems with

spk_0 this. I was in Germany just yesterday, zero growth for years now. You know, this is the sort of

spk_0 science and technology powerhouse of the continent, the biggest economy in Europe, zero growth.

spk_0 Where's that going? No plans, by the way, for infrastructure, investment for AI in Germany.

spk_0 So like one to watch. France wants to with nuclear, but can it? So you're kind of looking around

spk_0 going, it's all very well and good for the CEO of Nvidia, Jensen Huang, to show up here and

spk_0 make his statements. And it's great. It's super exciting. And it nails all the headlines. But then

spk_0 you're like, how? Sorry, where? Are you putting that all in the southeast of England where the

spk_0 majority of the population in this country lives? Have you seen what it's like to try and get anything

spk_0 built here? Good luck. We can't even build houses. We've got a housing shortage. Right? So

spk_0 I'm not trying to do this. This isn't like a negativity thing. It's like a dream. It's going to

spk_0 meet reality. And there's going to be a moment. I'm here for it as a researcher, as a citizen. I'm

spk_0 going to square that circle. And again, the promises have been made, diorize for five to ten

spk_0 years to see how many of these things actually get built with terrible record for huge infrastructure

spk_0 projects here. I'm very curious to see how that's going to work out in the Middle East for

spk_0 different reasons. You know, putting the world's biggest data center within reach of missiles

spk_0 from Iran is a very interesting move, right? Politically. So we can talk about that. Like we haven't

spk_0 even mentioned a national security dimensions of this. I'm just talking here in the U.A.

spk_0 of like, can we actually do it? And then how does this work for electricity and water?

spk_0 You want to put it into the Middle East. You are going to have an entirely different problem.

spk_0 So that you then go with position to do this. Who's been really good at infrastructure projects?

spk_0 Who's got the vision? Who's got the political will? Who's already looking at emerging technologies,

spk_0 green technology, leadership on this? I think I know this one. I don't know. I mean, I feel like I

spk_0 don't want to answer it. You know, back to you. Well, I know I would put down if we were in a pub quiz.

spk_0 A book I'm currently reading. A novel I'm currently reading is the three-body problem. Am I going

spk_0 in the right direction? Yeah. You know, look, may you live in interesting times? Is a curse for a reason.

spk_0 But we will get to see it play out. We will get to see it play out. And it's fascinating. I was

spk_0 intrigued by a manual Mac call back in February in Paris at the AI summit when he was like,

spk_0 the United States has drill baby drill. And they've got their nuclear fleet, which France is very proud,

spk_0 saying plug baby plug. We've got all this electricity in like France and Mac call in particular,

spk_0 although he will not be in power for much longer because it's term running out not for a dramatic

spk_0 reason. France has its nuclear electricity solution. Can it decide to think bigger and make that

spk_0 part of a European solution? Like if Europe could work together, is that an option? Does the UK

spk_0 get some action despite Brexit on that? Like, again, when there's a will, there's a way that

spk_0 engineering problem is the easy part in some ways of this. The human political social problem is

spk_0 the far bigger one. And we return thus full circle to my book, which is like wicked problems,

spk_0 right? That wonderful concept that so many of us when you learn it, you're like,

spk_0 ah, finally a term for this thing I've been seeing my entire life. And I just didn't know a word for it.

spk_0 Multiple causes the problem and every solution that you pose creates yet more problems.

spk_0 This is where rap right now. This has been a fascinating part of the conversation. And so it

spk_0 pains me that we're actually getting to a point where we're starting to rap up. But my final

spk_0 technical question before you hear, I think fall is unnicely from the last topic that we just

spk_0 discussed. Your expertise, the stuff that you've been talking about broadcasting, oh, by the way,

spk_0 I looked up into more detail that that article that I that we had your last quote from that that

spk_0 started with radiology. What was it? It was a radio radiology response to launch of UKI action plan.

spk_0 You were not interviewed for that article, which was on a relatively minor blog.

spk_0 They pulled something that you had said on BBC News. That's totally fair. By the way,

spk_0 if they wanted to use it, we love radiologists. I just remember this publication,

spk_0 are we having invented quotes? Because like, that's happening now, right?

spk_0 For sure. It is. Gen AI does definitely invent quotes. And I started to get a little nervous as I

spk_0 started doing it. But you did seem to recognize the quote as I got to it. But we should have,

spk_0 it would have been better for us to say that you said on BBC News, not in this random blog.

spk_0 So as you've discussed on BBC News, your expertise spans not just AI, but also other

spk_0 frontier technologies like the metaverse, cybersecurity. If you had to prioritize one of these

spk_0 as the most urgent frontier, shaping human futures over the next decade, which do you think it would be?

spk_0 I were only allowed to work on one, but it could be the one that I most want to work on,

spk_0 and that I would feel most proud if I could contribute anything to be on climate crisis and biodiversity

spk_0 loss by which I mean fixing them, not contributing to them. Yeah, I'm very worried about that.

spk_0 I'm very worried about that. I wish we were talking more about that, not on this podcast. I mean,

spk_0 on our society, and because there's so many other problems at the moment, I think it's not getting

spk_0 enough attention. But you know, if you are even remotely interested in nature and plants and

spk_0 animals in the world around you, you cannot help but notice these changes and science is being so

spk_0 politicized and defunded, which I really hate. I want to see this be like the number one priority.

spk_0 It affects everything. AI could be part of this, by the way, but you know, right now, I don't think

spk_0 it is, but it could be. So I'm sort of adjacent to that. But yeah, I would want, I would like to see

spk_0 us be far more respectful members of this planet as a species than we've been. It is probably

spk_0 marginally more important than having even larger Genai capabilities, manufacturing,

spk_0 porn flowing around the internet, maybe marginally more important than that.

spk_0 Yeah. No, it's absolutely. I think you're spot on there. I wasn't sure what you were going to say.

spk_0 And I, but I think it makes a lot of sense that that would be a top priority for you.

spk_0 And it's not the most fun note to end the song. So well, it could be though, if you were like,

spk_0 what would that look like? What would it look like if we actually backed research and science and

spk_0 cared about the environment, cared about, you know, if we parsed every single problem through that lens?

spk_0 Wouldn't that just be awesome? I want to feel happy too, right? Let's end this on a high.

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spk_0 And I like, I think it's kind of fun to think about the idea of literally what the solutions

spk_0 would look like as well. If you had, if you're driving on the highway and there's lots of

spk_0 you know, crossings over the highway for animals to go over and you know, there's lots of ways

spk_0 that it's actually, it's visually pleasing and just enjoyable to think about. If we had, you know,

spk_0 when you fly into Newark Airport, as a lot of people do when they fly internationally into New York,

spk_0 Newark, the journey from Newark, New Jersey to New York City is just this awful industrial

spk_0 wasteland and marshland and you think, and then traveling in some other countries like Switzerland

spk_0 and Germany, you see, there's so much more nature and biodiversity and so there's, you know,

spk_0 maybe that's kind of a fun way to visualize how things could be.

spk_0 I know. I was just in Switzerland in August for my summer holiday and you're just like, my god,

spk_0 once you see this and then you come back to where you live, you're just like,

spk_0 there's another way people, there's another way, I was taking videos and sending it to family

spk_0 and friends all over the world me like, and I know, you know, for apologies this fest, they've been like,

spk_0 we know, but it is incredible and there are countries that are working on this and there are so many,

spk_0 this is what kills me, so many people care about this. You know, this is one of these areas where I'm

spk_0 both commercially, but also just as a human being, I do not know a single person who wants to breathe

spk_0 dirty air, right, or who would love to look at an industrial wasteland instead of a garden or a park

spk_0 or whatever who's like, oh yeah, we're killing plants and animals and a horrific rate and

spk_0 fine with that. Like, no, and children, again, children are born understanding that they're part

spk_0 of something bigger than themselves and they're curious about it and they love it and it's just like,

spk_0 what the hell happens to people that we just don't care by the end? So, you know, luckily,

spk_0 there's a bunch of good people who do care and I think supporting them is going to be a big part

spk_0 of it and keeping it in front and center. So I do try to do that in my work. It's one of the areas

spk_0 that I'm going to be, I hope, more focused on in the future. I wasn't always in the past, so this

spk_0 has been something I've also had to understand. My book barely mentions it at all, just, you know,

spk_0 be like, what the hell? But again, I was running in a pandemic, but still, it still blows my mind

spk_0 when I go back and look at it and I'm like, this is a massive unspoken thing. It just wasn't on our

spk_0 mind. So, fair enough, like, there's no judgment here. I don't want to nail anybody if they're

spk_0 if they're not thinking about it yet. I'm just saying for myself personally, I see it. I'm old

spk_0 enough now to see the changes, to have lived the changes and I'm traveled enough now to look and

spk_0 see how other people are doing things. And I'm like, it's not even like we have to come up with

spk_0 the better solutions. They exist. People pioneered them. We just have to do it. So that's maybe

spk_0 that's part of it as well. It's like sharing what other people have done that works and make sure

spk_0 life better. Why would you not want to live a better life? Love that. Great, great sound bite.

spk_0 So quickly before I let you go, do you have a book recommendation for us, Dr. Hair? Sometimes as a

spk_0 technologist, you get too much tech and you need to read something else. What I read last Christmas

spk_0 was Richard J. Evans, Third Reich Trinogy. I shall demonstrate here. And the one that I think that I

spk_0 would like my fellow Americans to read right now is the coming of the Third Reich because it's

spk_0 actually quite useful and relevant for today. So I hope that's a political statement without saying why.

spk_0 But it goes into then what happens when the Third Reich got into power and then what happens when

spk_0 it went to war. And first of all, I just think it's useful because people constantly reference

spk_0 Nazis online without actually knowing their second world war history other than from films.

spk_0 It's fine. We all like the films. But Professor Richard J. Evans has done God's work and actually

spk_0 slugging through the archives, reading all the literature and writing it in a way that if you read

spk_0 nothing else on World War II, read this book. But while you read it, you will probably mark it up as I

spk_0 did with my God. This is happening now. My God, I did not realize that the first people that were

spk_0 rounding up in Germany were in fact Germans. Interesting. Right? Like quite useful. So yeah, I would say

spk_0 sometimes put down the book about AI for a moment and pick up frankly any book. But I really can

spk_0 recommend these. They are superbly written by one of the United Kingdom's top living historians.

spk_0 Great recommendation. Thank you. And I think I think actually probably most of the book recommendations we

spk_0 get on this show are unrelated to our field. Yeah. So thank you for that. Do you recommend to me

spk_0 before I let you go, John? What books do I read? Goodness. That puts me on the spot.

spk_0 My, I mean, this is kind of an AI book in a way, but it's a fiction book. It's Kurt Vonnegut

spk_0 from the 1950s. His first novel was called Player Piano. Player Piano. Yeah. And it's a,

spk_0 you know, Kurt Vonnegut is dark, but funny. And it is pretty stunning how he nails the moment

spk_0 that we're in today with Gen AI in his book from the 1950s. See, I would never have even

spk_0 known about this. I'm so grateful for you to have told me that. There you go. On Dave, on Dave,

spk_0 on a couple months, we'll have book club. Sounds good. And then yeah, final thing for you,

spk_0 Stephanie is after this episode, other than catching you on BBC News, where should people be

spk_0 following you online? In a library. You should be reading Professor Evans's books rather than

spk_0 following me online. He has far more to tell you than I ever could. I am unlinked in if you feel the

spk_0 need to be aware of things I might be randomly posting on LinkedIn, which is mainly job

spk_0 adverts that other people are, because I feel like all of us should always be aware of what's going

spk_0 on in the job markets. If I see something that's useful for other people, I'm going to post it.

spk_0 I'm experimenting with Blue Sky, but I might not be on it for much longer, just because I wanted

spk_0 to sort of Twitter alternative, but I just don't know. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not a good person to

spk_0 follow on LinkedIn or sorry on social media. No, I would just say, you know, follow me by reading

spk_0 books that you would enjoy. Like let's create that climate together and hit me up if you think

spk_0 there's any good books I should be reading. I love that. Thank you so much. This has been a great

spk_0 episode. So much fun. So interesting. Thank you, Dr. Hair. Yeah.

spk_0 Nice one. In today's episode, Dr. Stephanie Hair covered how technology ethics can be defined as

spk_0 the practice of maximizing the benefits and minimizing the harms of any tool we build or use,

spk_0 why a Hippocratic oath for technologists could serve as a guiding ethos focusing on regulating

spk_0 harmful use cases rather than rather than the tools themselves to avoid stifling innovation.

spk_0 She talked about how the rise of low quality AI generated slop maybe the final stage in the

spk_0 internet's degradation, potentially forcing a return to more intentional real world interactions.

spk_0 And she talked about why ambitious national AI strategies are on a collision course with the real

spk_0 world infrastructural limits of aging energy grids and the immense energy and water demands of

spk_0 data centers. As always, you can get all the show notes including the transcript for this episode,

spk_0 the video recording, any materials mentioned on the show, the URLs for Stephanie's social media

spk_0 profiles as well as my own at superdatasize.com slash 935. Thanks to everyone on the super data

spk_0 science podcast team, our podcast managers on your brave, bitch media editor Mario Pombo,

spk_0 partnerships manager Natalie Jaiski, researcher search masseuse, writer doctors Zara Karche,

spk_0 and our founder Kieryl Aramenko. Thanks to them for producing another stellar episode for us today

spk_0 for enabling that super team to create this free podcast for you. We are deeply grateful to our

spk_0 sponsors. You listener can support this show by checking out our sponsor's links, which you can

spk_0 find in the show notes. And if you'd like to sponsor the show yourself, you can make your way to

spk_0 johnkrone.com slash podcast to find out how you can do that. Otherwise, help us out by sharing

spk_0 this episode with people who would like to hear it or view it, review this episode on your favorite

spk_0 podcasting app or on YouTube, subscribe obviously, but most importantly, just keep on tuning in. I'm

spk_0 so grateful to have you listening and I hope I can continue to make episodes you love for years and

spk_0 years to come. Till next time, keep on rocking it out there and I'm looking forward to enjoying

spk_0 another round of the super data science bondcast with you very soon.

935: Global Issues Accelerated by AI (with Solutions), feat. Stephanie Hare

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