659: Lose the Ear Lottery

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Very often when we record stuff happens the day that we're going to record hours before we record stuff happens

spk_0 It's right peanuts late breaking stuff and

spk_0 Sometimes it just has to go and then it's because it's just we got to talk about this

spk_0 But other times is like, ah, that'll keep until next week

spk_0 And this week I was

spk_0 Today and the past couple days I saw a bunch of stuff coming up like, oh, that'll keep it. I said, oh, that'll keep

spk_0 I don't know. It's not even that interesting

spk_0 I don't know if it's gonna make it into the show because it's like well, whatever we've already talked about all of this

spk_0 But it was like extravaganza of apple leaks of products that we've already talked about

spk_0 So it's not like did you know they're gonna make another iPad? Yeah, we knew that

spk_0 You know they're gonna make more MacBook Pros. Yeah, we're not surprised

spk_0 So you know the iPad is gonna have the m5. Yeah, we're not surprised

spk_0 But the leaks are getting so bad that like

spk_0 One YouTube channel had supposedly

spk_0 The iPad pro m5 like just physically there they took it out of the box. They booted it. They benchmarked it

spk_0 It's nuts

spk_0 I mean, I think that same channel had like

spk_0 One of the earlier things like an old MacBook Pro or something that in some ways it's like wow

spk_0 This is like an amazing leak in the other hand. It's like

spk_0 Well, I mean, it's

spk_0 The iPad pro m5 it looks exactly like

spk_0 Pro and 4 but it's got m5 in it and the m5 is a little bit faster than the m4 and it's like the most boring leak ever

spk_0 And I don't know. I don't know what's going and that's you know in addition to all the FCC leaks because our government can't do anything

spk_0 Competently anymore. So all that will secret plan well right now. So do anything at all

spk_0 Anyway, it's I just thought it was funny like we probably won't mention it on the show because honestly like

spk_0 We've already talked about all the products that have leaked and there's no new information in them other than they exist

spk_0 Like we know they exist. So we're just here waiting for the October event

spk_0 But it is still funny to see again assuming it's real

spk_0 And m5 iPad pro on a YouTube channel before app laws announced the product

spk_0 Yeah, that is a remarkable leak or I mean theft. I mean, whatever

spk_0 Yeah, whatever happens. Obviously like that's not you got it theft

spk_0 Yeah, like there's no way for this to be on the up and up

spk_0 Like how this person got this is definitely theft or I mean it could be entirely faked

spk_0 But like it just seems like so much work to fake it and probably less work to steal it

spk_0 Yeah, and I think like you said this person that or this channel had something pre-release

spk_0 I think it was an m4 macbook

spk_0 Yeah, I think they have the physical like the plane m4 macbook again

spk_0 One of the most boring leaks ever because it looked the same it like the m3 one

spk_0 But now it has an m4 inside and the m4 is faster than the m3 but otherwise it's the same product

spk_0 The most boring thing ever to leak but on the other hand, it's you know legitimately seemingly

spk_0 A product that has not been announced in the flesh on a YouTube channel. Yeah, that's wild like I it's like when you think about like the level of leak

spk_0 That is it is I think it's kind of funny that this person has now gotten

spk_0 To seemingly legitimate products this way, but yes, they are like the most boring like spec bump

spk_0 Why's it to get the mac pro come on? No one cares about that. You guys still that really is it's so heavy, I guess

spk_0 All right, it is as we record this October 1st

spk_0 Which strictly speaking means it is no longer a childhood cancer awareness month

spk_0 But the relay for St. Jude campaign does hang out for another few days

spk_0 And so we will ask you quickly one last time to go to stju.org slash atp

spk_0 STJud.org slash atp and throw a little bit of money their way to try to give kids

spk_0 Stricing with childhood cancer more tomorrow's

spk_0 This year we've had some people write in and and share with us some personal stories

spk_0 We heard the story of a young girl at a year and a half who lost her battle with cancer somewhere in Europe

spk_0 Which was terrible and awful, but still they the hospital in Europe, you know use some St. Jude treatments and techniques

spk_0 Well Patrick writes in in case you're interested in specific st. Jude programs to mention

spk_0 I wanted to flag one that's in here in dear to my heart supporting action for emergency response or safer

spk_0 This program helps kids with cancer in Ukraine both to leave and to get the treatment they need if they can't leave

spk_0 This builds on a similar program they ran for displaced children with cancer in Lebanon

spk_0 And they're continuing to learn from this program in order to make a kind of global crisis response blueprint

spk_0 Obviously, St. Jude is countless programs worth mentioning and there's no wrong answer when deciding which of their initiatives to praise

spk_0 But one of the five year olds in my daughter's kindergarten is a Ukrainian refugee

spk_0 And as harrowing as his mother's tail is a tail is a fleeing their hometown

spk_0 With just what they could fit in their car as the sounds of explosions and gunfire grew nearer

spk_0 I cannot imagine the added burden of wondering where your child's next dose of life saving medicine will come from on top of that

spk_0 This is a quote from Patrick

spk_0 I think true words have never been spoken Patrick writes and finishes

spk_0 St. Jude and their local partners are true miracle workers

spk_0 Couldn't say better myself

spk_0 Unless one of you has something to add. I think we'll just cap it for this year there

spk_0 But please if you have any money to send

spk_0 St. Jude's way no amount is too small no time is too late

spk_0 Although it would be preferable the next week or so go to stju.org slash atp

spk_0 And we'll talk to you again in late August of next year

spk_0 Additionally as we're doing the show at ministeria we have a new eTP member special

spk_0 We do these once a month we do these member specials that are obviously just for members

spk_0 Where we talk about all sorts of different things John do you want to do a quick nickel tour of what sorts of member specials

spk_0 We do and then perhaps introduce this particular one if you don't mind. Oh sure

spk_0 We've done all types of ones if you become a member you want to go way back to the beginning

spk_0 You can hear us eating weird food if that's the thing that you're into sometimes you watch movies and talk about them

spk_0 Which is fun because the other two hosts of the show are not big movie buffs so a lot of things are new to them

spk_0 We've talked about let's see

spk_0 We do tier lists where we rank things in a typical tier lists structure

spk_0 Usually technology things computer stuff, but sometimes things like storage media and connectors those can be surprisingly contentious

spk_0 We've done top four which is an homage to marco's top four podcasts where similar we just pick our top four of certain things

spk_0 We also have a subcategory for developer topics

spk_0 We haven't done many of those but the few that we've done have been very popular

spk_0 And that's what we've done this month. We've gone back to the ATP dev well to do an episode for developers

spk_0 Like we know everyone who listens to show isn't a developer. I know we're all developers

spk_0 But we we try to keep it to keep the content not you know just to be all of only of interest to developers

spk_0 But every once in a while developers get a little cookie and this is one of those months

spk_0 Nice. What kind of cookie is it John? I don't know chocolate chip. I don't know computer chip. I just I see what you get there

spk_0 Yeah, so we did ATP dev computer science curriculum where we discussed our

spk_0 upbringings in computer science and computer engineering and how that compares in contrast

spk_0 To today and also what did we get and what didn't we get from our educations in the what was in mid 90s for you and early

spk_0 Auts for Marco and I

spk_0 So yeah, it was it was a lot of fun as always

spk_0 We had a lot more to say about this than I expected, but hey, it's us

spk_0 But I enjoyed it and I think you will too

spk_0 So if you're not a member Marco, what do you do go to ATP.fm slash join and give us some money and you'll become a member

spk_0 Excellent and obviously you get a you get the entire back catalog of member specials

spk_0 You get the bootleg if you so desire where you get the completely unedited version

spk_0 Which is usually me swearing a lot and or screwing things up

spk_0 You can get an ad free version of the feed you get discounts on time limit and merchandise

spk_0 I really think it's a really solid offering. I really truly do and so Hp.fm slash join

spk_0 Yeah, and if you do join and you want to see the whole back catalog of specials there

spk_0 They're in all the regular feeds and everything this is all in the fact on the website

spk_0 But you can just go also go to ATP.fm slash specials to see just the specials

spk_0 There's a dedicated fee with just the specials

spk_0 So if you just want to catch up on them, it's it's pretty easy

spk_0 And this one about computer science curriculum to be clear the goal was to talk about like college like you go to college

spk_0 You major in computer science. What are the courses? What do you learn?

spk_0 Where do you supposed to learn? What are they trying to teach you?

spk_0 But the topic is so expansive that even within the realm of that

spk_0 I realized from some feedback we got from people who listened to the episode

spk_0 This is more stuff we should have covered for example

spk_0 We didn't even really touch on the thing that I was tuning about a few days ago about my children learning about the file system in college

spk_0 So that's I felt like we should have put that in this member special now

spk_0 I'll just save it for another one

spk_0 So it is actually a much bigger talk with than you might think if you never

spk_0 studied computer science in college

spk_0 Or interested in it or wondering like how that works

spk_0 This is a good special to listen to

spk_0 But as I said in the show you absolutely do not have to go to college at all that alone major in computer science to be a successful programmer

spk_0 And that is a whole other topic about being a programmer without any formal education

spk_0 What's that's like so we'll probably go back to the ATP dev well at some point

spk_0 But for now ATP dev computer science curriculum mostly in college

spk_0 We have two unrelated yet kind of spiritually related quick and adorable stories

spk_0 I wanted to share our mark Christian writes

spk_0 I was just walking through Manhattan and wearing an ATP shirt when a stranger tapped me on the shoulder held a pisfone showing overcast

spk_0 actively playing ATP and gave me a thumbs up what a nerd

spk_0 Can I save button for the record?

spk_0 Yeah, every time I am around like people in the public like you know if I'm in the city right in the subway

spk_0 Every time I see a phone screen. Yeah, I spy it. I glance at that because I want to see what they're doing on their phone

spk_0 I don't want to read their message. I just want to see like you know what kind of apps are they using?

spk_0 I hope every time to see my app it has never happened

spk_0 I have never seen like a random you know outside of like a tech conference

spk_0 I've never seen anyone using an app I've made on their phone

spk_0 What I do see is everybody playing like those candy matching games and browsing Instagram and texting their friends

spk_0 That's it like the entire I don't know the entirety of what I see is candy matching

spk_0 Instagram and messages. I wish someday to see my app in use by a stranger out in the world. It hasn't yet happened

spk_0 Well apparently it happened for Mark and I

spk_0 I think it's pretty clear that the what a nerd line was tongue in cheek

spk_0 But it still made me laugh quite a bit and I would like a nerd yeah right exactly

spk_0 I would love it if you happen to be that that person that

spk_0 Flashed mark your screen and a thumbs up. Please read right in I would love to hear about it

spk_0 Additionally Richard Ernie writes that he was recognized in an ATP pixel shirt upon arriving in Edinburgh, Scotland

spk_0 Which I think is quite adorable as well

spk_0 Apparently the person that he ran into was also an ATP fan

spk_0 What's on on the stop? I think I've mentioned this before would my sister's family sister her husband and all her kids who are now

spk_0 adult slash college kids

spk_0 Have a contest among the family to see who is going to be the first to where one of my shirts like an ATP shirt or nine

spk_0 or critical shirt or something like that and

spk_0 Have someone recognize the shirt like understand what it is

spk_0 They get lots of people saying oh is that about tennis is that about BMW?

spk_0 You know like all this thing so they don't know and has actually seen the thing

spk_0 So every time we get one of these I say you should just go to Scotland you can win the game

spk_0 They're gonna show up in Scotland with an ATP pixel shirt and someone will find you easy

spk_0 But just like Marco like like lots of people have his app, but he never sees them

spk_0 So it doesn't seem like it's enough so they're out there. They're wearing ATP shirts

spk_0 I send them ATP shirts whenever we have a sale and stuff like that

spk_0 They're out there. We're in the shirts just hoping somewhere someone's gonna be like hey, what is that shirt?

spk_0 They'd be like oh my uncle's podcast, right, but it just never happens

spk_0 I did sort of have something like this happen we are members of a community pool and

spk_0 It was early this summer from not mistaken. I saw a gentleman and his family walk into the pool and I was like wait a second

spk_0 Wait a second and sure enough it was an ATP

spk_0 Dad had as we used to call it on a dad

spk_0 and

spk_0 This was delightful for me and I did introduce myself or I think I shouted out like nice hat or something that it was walking by as he was walking by

spk_0 But this was made deeply uncomfortable because I am topless in a bathing suit in the swimming pool

spk_0 And this is not the most wonderful time to meet someone who is listening to presumably at least a couple hours of your voice

spk_0 So that was a little bit awkward. So and I forget the gentleman's name is very kind

spk_0 But if you're out there list still listening you might not be after that experience

spk_0 I wouldn't blame you, but if you're out there still listening

spk_0 I appreciate you nevertheless. Yeah one time Tiff and I went

spk_0 uh

spk_0 About six years ago we went to on a vacation to cancun together

spk_0 and

spk_0 We in like in the pool like sitting on the pool deck of this hotel in cancun

spk_0 Somebody heard her talking and said oh my god. Are you Tiff?

spk_0 Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, and then you know we got to talking about them and they were end up being fans of both of ours

spk_0 But like that's the closest I've ever come to that and that was amazing

spk_0 And it wasn't even me being recognized it was

spk_0 Awesome. That's the danger of being a podcaster is the people don't know what you look like

spk_0 But they do know your voice

spk_0 For the people who can recognize voices which is the sole subset of our listeners as we've discussed

spk_0 I'm past those ones, but they do know your voice and so you never know when something they're gonna come up behind you

spk_0 Because you're not there. I'm gonna be in your field division. They're gonna be like excuse me. Are you John Syracuse?

spk_0 Like that. I mean again to my sister someone of my sister found me once a win this game

spk_0 They just need to go to w. I already see that was it doesn't count

spk_0 Absolutely doesn't count, but that's the all that's all perhaps all of the people who know who we are at that conference

spk_0 And then they disperse and even then like it's not a huge percentage of those people exactly. Yes, it's tiny percentage, but that's all of them

spk_0 Yeah

spk_0 Yeah, they're all there. No, it's I've told the story before on the show. I'm pretty darn sure

spk_0 But the first time I ever got recognized in public I was sitting in dullis waiting to go to wbdc

spk_0 This was Marco or Marco GZPZ underscore and eyes

spk_0 tradition every year we were on

spk_0 Virgin Atlantic or Virgin America excuse me flight 96. I think it was maybe that was a return flight

spk_0 I don't remember now, but

spk_0 We were sitting in dullest chitchatting and I had my back to you know

spk_0 There was like one of those situations where the chairs had their backs to each other and the person like one or two chairs down behind me

spk_0 Tap me on the children said. I'm sorry. Are you Casey? Because I heard your voice and I was like oh my god

spk_0 What is happening because I was the very first time I'd been recognized in any capacity and it blew my mind

spk_0 I was incredibly flattering, but blew my mind that my stupid voice was what got me pegged

spk_0 Which obviously makes perfect logical sense, but it was so astonishing and in off-putting but not the negative way and like the positive way

spk_0 It was very unusual and very cool

spk_0 Anyway, sorry. That was an aggression

spk_0 At least we're super relatable to our audience

spk_0 Right

spk_0 Well, I like even if you don't have a podcast it used to be back when WWC was in person

spk_0 If you were in a lived in a major city and you got on one of the obvious flights for arriving at WWC

spk_0 There was tons of other WWC people that you could you could spot them by like how much apple crap they had or whatever

spk_0 Like if there were a series WWDC shirt

spk_0 Those were definitely nerd heavy flights

spk_0 Yes, they were I miss those days

spk_0 All right, so what we have in the show notes is as follows apple released

spk_0 iOS 26.0.1 and apple says this update provides important bug fixes and security updates for your iPhone including fixes with following issues

spk_0 Wi-Fi and Bluetooth may occasionally disconnect and iPhone 17 iPhone Air and iPhone 17 Pro models

spk_0 And I saw saw this and thought yes

spk_0 This is my moment because as I lamented I believe last episode

spk_0 CarPlay with my beloved

spk_0 Car link it's dongle which I bought something like seven years ago. So it is not new by any stretch of the imagination

spk_0 Carwire wireless carplay is working anymore. It'll stay connected for like

spk_0 30ish seconds and then crap out and then it'll reconnect like 10 seconds later than crap out and just does

spk_0 Ascendlessly wired car play still works great, but wireless with this particular dongle does not

spk_0 That's making me very sad a lot of people including Rosemary orchard have written in and said they've gotten newer versions of whatever

spk_0 Their particular dongle that they favor is

spk_0 And that's worked out well for them

spk_0 But I figured oh this must be software. I'll wait it out and so 26.0.1 happened

spk_0 Today I went to one of my favorite local libraries and that's like a 15 20 minute drive from us

spk_0 It's not the nearest library, but it's one of my favorites and

spk_0 I that like I said it's 15 20 minute drive and I tried using my 26.0.1 iPhone 17 pro

spk_0 With my with my car link it dongle and almost immediately it crapped out and had the same exact problem

spk_0 So I'm holding out for 26.1

spk_0 But after that I'm probably gonna use this as an excuse to just get a new dongle and hopefully fix the problem

spk_0 I can tell you I saw I'm running the 26.1 beta on my 17 pro

spk_0 Oh, and well honestly, I figured nothing can be more buggy than 26.0. Oh

spk_0 You're no wrong

spk_0 And I'm happy to report 26.1 does fix some of the like UI bugs in the system that I've that have been

spk_0 Oh, man

spk_0 It's being an app developer right now and having adopted the 26 design like

spk_0 It's kind of like a you know a darned if you do darned if you didn't kind of thing of like if you if you didn't adopt the 26 design yet

spk_0 You're hearing from all your users saying why aren't you adopting this design?

spk_0 If you did adopt it

spk_0 You are getting bug reports from your users

spk_0 About bugs in your app that you can't fix because they're system bugs and so I have like I would say a good

spk_0 half of the

spk_0 Bug reports that I'm getting in the last month have actually been apple bugs have they been I was 20 to 20 to 20 bugs

spk_0 The you know, it's best especially

spk_0 Oh my god the

spk_0 When you have reduced transparency in dark mode

spk_0 Uh, you will frequently get white on white liquid glass toolbar buttons that means that's a 26.0 book

spk_0 I think they fix that into a 26.01. I did they because it seems fixed in 26.1 beta

spk_0 But that's not that's not out the public yet. So like I get I probably get

spk_0 Five to 10 emails a day about that issue alone

spk_0 Like it and there's so many you know, I'm getting reports of like car play speaking of books kc

spk_0 I'm gonna reports that

spk_0 My app is getting like garbled audio quality in car play

spk_0 Along with other podcast apps when running on 26. Uh, I was 26

spk_0 What am I supposed to do about that like that's as far as I can tell I think it's an iOS bug

spk_0 But again like my users don't know that they report it to me as my bug and I um, I'm getting honestly like I'm so worn down

spk_0 From getting a bunch of reports of bugs that I can't fix because they're apples bugs

spk_0 I hope I hope they iron these out soon because like this this release cycle is rough

spk_0 It it did exactly what we all feared at wood. We're just like oh this huge redesign

spk_0 That's gonna be a lot of work for apple too, and they're not gonna hit their deadline

spk_0 Well, they didn't they shipped a bunch of betas as final versions

spk_0 They definitely did not hit their deadline and you know who and no one could have they just you know

spk_0 This is a problem of their own creation on the schedule. They made to themselves anyway

spk_0 um

spk_0 But going back to your topic about uh, Wi-Fi connectivity bugs

spk_0 Tethering is totally broken on my 17 pro and I oh yeah, I saw you talking about that on maston

spk_0 I haven't had a chance to try it myself

spk_0 It like I don't feel like I've had a problem with it in a couple times. I've tried it very briefly. Are you running the beta like mark?

spk_0 No, not in not in 26.1 right so to be fair

spk_0 It could be a 26.1 beta problem. I don't know that because I'm running 26.1 beta on my 17 pro

spk_0 And tethering is

spk_0 Incredibly unreliable like you can get it to work and it'll work for between you know

spk_0 one and 15 minutes and then it'll just be totally drop it will be unreachable like

spk_0 You'll still be connected according to the computer

spk_0 But no data will go through you know you can't ping google.com whatever like you know everything just dies

spk_0 You lose all connectivity until you reboot the phone

spk_0 And this happens

spk_0 I don't think it's Wi-Fi because this happens whether you are running over Wi-Fi or a

spk_0 USB cable it doesn't matter either way so

spk_0 It seems like there's some kind of massive breakage of tethering at least in the 26.1 beta or or the iPhone pro like one of those

spk_0 It's broken whatever it is and like

spk_0 I've been so spoiled all summer long because tacho has been awesome for tethering because tacho finally

spk_0 Auto reconnects when you go through a train tunnel or whatever and lose connection for a second tacho auto reconnects and

spk_0 If you open up your tacho laptop on you know on a trainer or whatever and you have no Wi-Fi after like a couple of seconds of looking for Wi-Fi

spk_0 It automatically connects to tethering which is a feature apple has advertised

spk_0 I believe for something like three years, but it never worked until tacho

spk_0 So all summer I've had this glorious tethering experience of on my laptop with my 16 pro is it like slowly

spk_0 You know melted itself and couldn't keep itself charged but like yeah, it's slowly

spk_0 You know heating up the world, but

spk_0 It worked every time I would open up my open up my laptop on the train and a few seconds later

spk_0 I just be connected and it would stay connected the entire time

spk_0 It was glorious. It almost maybe think like maybe I don't need a cellular MacBook after all

spk_0 but you know two seconds with this problem on my on my you know

spk_0 Beta running 17 pro not being able to tether reliably and I'm like oh no like this is

spk_0 This is unusable again, so I don't know what to do. I I hope this is fixed quickly

spk_0 But all this is to say that like

spk_0 Not only is is are the 26.0 releases obviously very buggy and now maybe 20 maybe 20.1 as well. We'll see

spk_0 It of course it will still have bugs like it's not enough time to fix to all of them

spk_0 But it seems to me maybe maybe introducing new ones. We'll see it is a beta

spk_0 But also these phones have the have apples new Wi-Fi chip the end one. It's in all the new phones

spk_0 and I can't help but think that like

spk_0 Obviously there's going to be some problems. There's going to be some you know

spk_0 compatibility issues. There's going to be

spk_0 If flaws are going to be bugs and that's going to take a while to iron out too

spk_0 So in a way, I think we also have beta hardware this season

spk_0 And not that I don't think it can be fixed in software like I think I think in a few months

spk_0 These exact iPhones with software fixes will be fantastic at all these things like I I'm sure

spk_0 This is a very short-lived problem until they get these fixes out

spk_0 But right now

spk_0 There are problems and I hope they fix them soon

spk_0 Because otherwise these are fantastic phones, but you know that there's

spk_0 They're not everything is not fully baked yet

spk_0 Yeah, I mean I definitely think that

spk_0 26.1 from the rumblings I've heard from birdies and I think I'm not the only one is really the 26.0 release

spk_0 It's obviously not literally but it's the release that I think Apple internally wanted to have is 26.0 in just couldn't make it in time

spk_0 So I'm hopeful we'll see what happens. I will say very briefly

spk_0 I know we already talked about first impressions of these phones and

spk_0 We're gonna talk about first impressions about other things later

spk_0 But I will briefly say this thing does not get hot like the 16 pro did or at least not yet anyway

spk_0 Now I haven't had a football game in full son or anything like that yet

spk_0 So maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm jumping jumping ahead of myself

spk_0 But from what I can tell so far this thing does not get anywhere near as hot as the 16 pro did and I I don't think I really appreciated or

spk_0 Understood because I don't appreciate it how hot the 16 pro got and I thought and I thought I knew but now having a phone that doesn't turn into a

spk_0 Ball of magma I find that it is quite a bit better now. So that is very good. Yeah, that has been awesome

spk_0 Like I like if I'm not tethering I have no problem with this phone like it when I'm just using the phone itself

spk_0 It self maintains its own internet connection just fine when I'm using the phone itself

spk_0 It is glorious because you're right like it is a much better thermal design the phone can actually keep itself charged

spk_0 While outside and being used like through through a cable to the laptop to laptop or battery whatever

spk_0 It can charge itself to 100% without like massively throwing itself for hours while it cools down like it

spk_0 It's so it just it works so much better

spk_0 It's it's a great overall phone. I'm very happy with the 70 pro and I

spk_0 Love the orange. I'm so glad I did the orange. It looks fantastic

spk_0 I'm so happy when I see it every time

spk_0 We not because Aaron got the orange and I don't dislike my purpley blue bluey purple

spk_0 But the orange was a better choice

spk_0 Unquestionably the orange it's not too late you can still get it

spk_0 That's all right like it's okay. So I don't want to go through the phone setup experience another time

spk_0 No, I really yeah, just get like you know three thunderbolt cables right yeah exactly. I'll get to that later

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, all right

spk_0 So we had some questions last week speaking of all this about it was a perfect segue. Thank you gentlemen

spk_0 We had questions with regard to backups and you know, what is iCloud actually backup or not and date and lowell rights

spk_0 If you haven't turned on message or I think this is actually a quote from the Apple page

spk_0 Yeah, it was linked to the apple. Thank you

spk_0 But via Dayton if you haven't turned on a message in iCloud your messages are included in iCloud backup

spk_0 If you use messages in iCloud your messages automatically synced iCloud so they aren't included in your daily backup

spk_0 Which makes sense

spk_0 Additionally with regard to my iMessage stuff nick writes

spk_0 Yes, you should considering enable mess enabling messages in iCloud

spk_0 Temporary expectations though is nobody will ever accuse the feature being fast and it may randomly pause if your devices are not charging or get too warm

spk_0 But when you delete a conversation thread on one device it cleans it up everywhere, which is very nice

spk_0 Also for the sake of your iCloud storage and especially for your Mac consider going to settings apps messages message history keep messages

spk_0 And change this from forever to one year which as an aside I've now done

spk_0 And messages is a terrible archive for attachments and photos

spk_0 If you are already in the habit of saving important photos and you want to keep forever to your iCloud photos as you receive them

spk_0 Then you can probably like go of messages older than a year

spk_0 This is less of an issue on the iPhone where it will offload 100 gigs of messages

spk_0 But apple has yet to implement the same offloading feature for messages on the Mac which is untenable for a lot of folks

spk_0 Additionally Nathan writes in case if you're worried about too many gifts in your messages go to settings general

spk_0 iPhone storage messages gifts and stickers you need to select them one by one

spk_0 But you can delete them quickly

spk_0 Additionally, I don't think we put this in the show notes

spk_0 I meant to and I expected John to do it and I should have done my own homework

spk_0 So I apologize John

spk_0 But a lot of people wrote in and said if you turn I'm doing this off off the top of my head

spk_0 So I might have this factually incorrect. So please bear with me

spk_0 But if you're my entire life man, you're good

spk_0 If you turn on advanced data protection for iCloud

spk_0 Then the whole thing I was worried about where apple has a key to your i messages

spk_0 So that they could strictly speaking unlock them that is not true if you have ADP on

spk_0 If you don't have ADP on then yes, they could strictly speaking get in there if they really tried hard enough

spk_0 But with that advanced data protection on of several people wrote in to say they can't get in there no matter what

spk_0 And there is a link somewhere that that details this but again, I forgot to put it in the show notes

spk_0 So I'm sorry

spk_0 I intentionally didn't put that in the other person like well

spk_0 We've covered that when we talk about advanced data protection, but I guess you don't remember that we talked about that

spk_0 What I know even I would have answered it

spk_0 I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm not that bad

spk_0 Oh my god easy

spk_0 I'm not that good in the sense you can troll us forever on that because there's nothing that you don't remember that we will not think

spk_0 But yes, that is that that's why the um, who was it whoever

spk_0 Dayton wrote into remind us like

spk_0 The whole thing is like that iCloud backups that apple has the key to them if you don't use advanced data protection

spk_0 I'm saying if you use iMessages and iCloud

spk_0 Your messages aren't in the iCloud backup so it doesn't matter whether they're protected when we discuss this last time

spk_0 I think we all said that we had chosen not to turn on advanced data protection

spk_0 Because there are downsides to in addition

spk_0 So the the additional protection you you give and my rationale was I'm much more likely to accidentally lock myself out of my own data

spk_0 Then I am to get hacked by somebody because nobody cares about my crap

spk_0 And so that's why I choose not to have advanced data protection on

spk_0 Because I'm more worried about data loss than am about hacks

spk_0 But everyone has to make their own choices there and it's nice that apple gives you that option if you do enable that

spk_0 It takes away apples keys even from your iCloud backups

spk_0 yep

spk_0 All right

spk_0 With regard to iPhone transfers when you lose rights

spk_0 I feel like apple pre-populating a new iPhone purchased directly from them with the iCloud backup of your current iPhone

spk_0 Could be an incredible value add for customers

spk_0 I don't see a technical

spk_0 Technical reason why this wouldn't be entirely possible. Do you this reminds me very much of

spk_0 Kindles that that come pre linked to your account which is really freaking nice if I'm honest with you that being said

spk_0 I don't know how much

spk_0 It's much as I agree 100% that this would be amazing in principle one in execution

spk_0 I'm not so sure would be so great and that's in no small part because

spk_0 The iCloud backup that's being taken and put onto your phone aside from that being a little bit creepy

spk_0 That also is going to be what a several days a week two weeks old by the time you get your phone in hand

spk_0 So leaving aside technical challenges

spk_0 I just don't think that would be as good as we think it would be because these things these devices are always in flux

spk_0 Constantly but I don't know convinced me I'm wrong gentlemen

spk_0 Well, if you use advanced data protection they can't do it

spk_0 They can't put your data on the phone if you use advanced data production

spk_0 Is how are they going to get your data to put on the phone? They can't get your data

spk_0 They can't put it only you can do that. That's the point of it

spk_0 Even without advanced data protection

spk_0 Even though they may be able to access your iCloud back because I still imagine there's some things

spk_0 They couldn't put on there without you like authenticating because even though they may have the key to your iCloud backups

spk_0 That's just data. There may be other stuff like for example, but they can't get your iCloud keychain stuff

spk_0 No matter what kind of backup thing you so

spk_0 Tech there are technical reasons why they literally can't do this

spk_0 But the most important reason is even if they could do this from a technical perspective

spk_0 It's just like the pretzopietzopetsabox thing and putting the thing out like the scale

spk_0 It we all know how long it takes to do transfers the best case scenario

spk_0 It's you know, it's taking maybe 30 minutes or an hour depending on how much data you have

spk_0 Multiply that by how many iPhones are sold like who how when is this going to happen?

spk_0 You're going to pay fleets of people and giant machines to constantly be running putting these things through and keeping track like

spk_0 It's a huge added expense and we had huge amounts of time and it's just not feasible at the scale that they do things

spk_0 Due to how long it takes to put data on a phone so

spk_0 Yes, there are technical reasons why it can't be done and then there are also practical and economical reasons why it can't be done

spk_0 Or at least couldn't be done without charging like 200 extra dollars and making you wait an extra week for your phone over

spk_0 Yeah, also worth pointing out like for Amazon to do it for kindles like what's the maximum

spk_0 Surface area of like a bad outcome for that. Yeah, it's worst case scenario is somebody fraudulently

spk_0 I guess buys a bunch of stuff on your kindle account, but that's Amazon. They can refund that like it's not that horrible

spk_0 Of a thing and they're probably riding like two bites to the device to by the way

spk_0 That's why they can do it like this is your kindle customer idea

spk_0 And then when you turn it on it says oh, this is your customer idea and it probably makes you log in

spk_0 Yeah, whereas like think about like the you know not only the technical side but just like the security risk of

spk_0 Apple doing that and somebody intercepts that phone or even just even just the idea that Apple themselves

spk_0 Could just kind of instantiate your phone whenever they wanted to like there's a reason why we have protections and checks and everything like

spk_0 There's lots of security implications of that and privacy implications that that would be very dangerous like the way Amazon does it

spk_0 It's not super safe, but like the again like the attack the possible attack surface for a kindle

spk_0 Being very rigid rigidly or counting like it's not that terrible

spk_0 compared to your entire iPhone

spk_0 Yep, very true

spk_0 My buddy Daniel Nelson writes I forgot to do anything about my test flight apps when moving to my new phone

spk_0 And I was happily surprised to find this here replace them with the App Store versions

spk_0 So though I still had to re-download them to get the test flight version

spk_0 I at least didn't have my home screen positions get messed up

spk_0 Daniel is very smart and a very good guy and I don't think he's wrong my recollection as we've discussed my memory sucks

spk_0 But I thought that there were gaps in the home screens that there are the couple of home screens where I had

spk_0 Test flight apps, but I don't remember them having been populated by full app store apps

spk_0 So one thing that it's not populated by a transfer is

spk_0 Developer mode apps like if you just build and run an Xcode and deploy that onto your phone

spk_0 That won't transfer to a new phone

spk_0 No, I'm thinking of like you know overcast day one and we have with the dot next to exactly

spk_0 And I again, I'm not trying to say that Daniel's wrong. I in fact

spk_0 I'm probably on this wrong. I mean supposedly watches transfer to new phones too, but we are

spk_0 That's right. It happens consistently for customers. So Daniel got lucky

spk_0 But anyways, but my experience was that at least there were holes in my home screen

spk_0 Which I vastly preferred over the like reshuffling of my home screens

spk_0 I think we talked about this on a member special at some point

spk_0 But I'm down to only a couple of screens now and it's only like 20 apps total across the two screens because widgets and whatnot

spk_0 But it was still frustrating having to figure out what was the thing there and what was my muscle memory? Oh, right

spk_0 That's where overcast goes

spk_0 And this time at least there was a gap so it was easier to figure that out or at least that's why I remember

spk_0 Yeah, the gaps used to collapse. That was a worse back in the day exactly exactly

spk_0 But yeah, maybe maybe experiences were better you you Daniel and you the the royal you

spk_0 The same Nick from above writes. I've been doing all manner of iPhone migrations and restores many hundreds

spk_0 It's not thousands of times of Apple care over the last 13 years

spk_0 And I've strong opinions about which backup transfer methods work best for whom

spk_0 Finder or iTunes backups still offer the most unique benefits over other methods including

spk_0 You can have an unlimited number of full local backups hard drive space permitting and they stay in your computer forever until you choose to delete them

spk_0 Not so for iCloud

spk_0 You typically get to sometimes three iCloud backup dates to choose from and then you wait too long to restore and if you wait too long to

spk_0 To restore excuse me those dates will change combine this worry with your trade in deadline and can feel very stressful

spk_0 Local backups are included in your time machine backup

spk_0 Restoring from Finder iTunes backup allows you to front load the most time consuming process and walk away

spk_0 Also finder and iTunes errors give you far more information about what went wrong compared to the other methods

spk_0 And there are more troubleshooting remedies when a backup or restore fails

spk_0 For pro iPhones on a Mac

spk_0 It's the second fastest migration assuming you make the Finder iTunes backup before you get the new phone

spk_0 In summary and I think Nick had said many other things

spk_0 But in summary iCloud is the choice Apple clearly wants most people to use

spk_0 It's the practical choice for almost everyone the best choice for the impatient and or phone addicts

spk_0 The least complete restore method I feel attacked the least complete restore method

spk_0 Encrypted Finder backups and iCloud backup in sync is the best choice for nervous or reluctant operators

spk_0 The best choice for anyone doing a trade in and the most complete backups tied with device to device and finally

spk_0 Speaking of device to device

spk_0 It's the best choice for rural customers a slow internet no computer or apparently if you're in a car

spk_0 Maybe possibly the most complete backups which is tied with encrypted Finder backups

spk_0 And the worst choice for transferring from very old phones my experiences that these devices are not performance or stable enough to go through a multi-hour device to device transfer

spk_0 Without failing over and over

spk_0 With regard to apples onboarding impthas right

spk_0 I loved the conversation about how many questions and hoops one had to go through to set up new iPhones

spk_0 Even the AirPods pros have this problem back in 2017 when first got AirPods

spk_0 It was magical just open the case next year phone. I was good to go

spk_0 Even when I set up the AirPods Pro 2 a few years ago was relatively easy

spk_0 But now it was do you want a conversational awareness? Do you want personalized audio? Do you want to test your fit?

spk_0 Do you want to take a hearing test?

spk_0 Etc. Etc. Etc. Yeah, I mean it is getting worse on all products

spk_0 But I think in the case of AirPods part of it that is that the original AirPods didn't have a lot of features

spk_0 And now they do and that's the time when you would expect someone to

spk_0 Show you those features. They didn't have noise cancelling. They wanted to be on offer whatever they didn't have a like and

spk_0 And having a sort of a wizard type thing where it walks you through these steps instead of just letting me use the AirPods

spk_0 There probably should be a button for that

spk_0 The phone should probably know if you've had this kind of AirPods before if you use these feature before like is it last week

spk_0 Don't show me about noise cancelling if this is my fourth pair of noise cancelling AirPods. I don't need to see that

spk_0 but

spk_0 I do think that

spk_0 You're never going to go back to you just open it up and and immediately start going

spk_0 Because there's just so many more features on AirPods than they used to be and the number of features and AirPods is going up and not down

spk_0 Now it does get ridiculous when it's like

spk_0 You know, okay, well you got to pick which things you want to show in there

spk_0 What are the most important features to show the new user of AirPods assuming they've never owned AirPods before because eventually

spk_0 It's like do you want to test your heart rate monitor? Do you want to test the live translation?

spk_0 It's like okay, all right. It does a lot of things. Let's just maybe pick three

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spk_0 Thought text in alter ego. This is this was a overtime

spk_0 overtime yeah this was the thing where you can strap some device to your cheek and it will

spk_0 Read the muscle movements in your mouth in order to figure out what you're trying to say doesn't go in your cheek

spk_0 What I thought it was on your cheek no

spk_0 Shockingly your memory is not out here. Well, all right side of your head somewhere. It doesn't really matter

spk_0 Yeah, I remember like the guy had it was sitting in the lounge chair

spk_0 I get a thing like on his like like his temples kind of by the ears

spk_0 No, okay

spk_0 Well, all of also in my defense being thrown off by this older image

spk_0 Which I know was an older image of a much larger thing. That's from April 2018 says right there in the notes

spk_0 You know, I'm doing the best I can't hear John not all of us are perfect like you

spk_0 All right, tell me what Firefox the movie from the year of my birth is

spk_0 That's I threw that out there during the overtime segment knowing full well none of you would get it

spk_0 I meant to clarify what it was just people

spk_0 I don't think I was having a stroke or something but I say think Russian

spk_0 When we were discussing thought controlling things with thought the 1982 movie Firefox starring Clint Eastwood is it?

spk_0 A movie that was on TV a lot

spk_0 That I watched when I was a kid about a Russian spy plane that actually looked pretty cool like that big

spk_0 You know, it's kind of like a cross between the like the the

spk_0 The valkyrie if you know what that is from US military and kind of like an SR 71 anyway

spk_0 Like a black spy plane made by the Russians and Clint Eastwood

spk_0 Goes to steal it

spk_0 But when he steals it the plane is controlled by thought but to steal the plane. He's got to think in Russian

spk_0 Oh my god, oh my and I was thinking that like we're really catching up to these 1980s

spk_0 I find movies because you know if you had like a thought to

spk_0 Text type interface for doing something or whatever and it was in Russian you'd have to think you'd have to think words in Russian

spk_0 Anyway, that's what the reference was think Russian. I

spk_0 Feel better knowing that piece of information

spk_0 I

spk_0 You know if we keep doing member specials eventually I make you watch terrible 80s movies with me at some point but hard

spk_0 My recollections that it was not a good movie, but when you're a little kid and they have a Clint Eastwood flying a spy plane control by thought it was cool

spk_0 I mean

spk_0 Conceptually that makes sense, but that does not sound fun to me

spk_0 This is a point of contention with a dear local friend of mine who is in love with like all 80s movies

spk_0 What was there was some military one you brought up like two or three months ago? Yes

spk_0 Or an editor gets a fly enough 16 again. These are really appealing movies when you're seven or eight years old right

spk_0 Well, and I brought this up with my my local friend Brad and he was like, oh, yeah, I love that movie

spk_0 And and I told him yeah, actually listen to shows and now he's potentially embarrassed or in delighted who knows

spk_0 Anyways, but I talked to him about this and you say oh, yeah, it's great

spk_0 I was like man, not great not look good to me great for kids

spk_0 Well in his defense. I think that was roughly what he said, but never

spk_0 That was back when I was young and wanted to be a fighter pilot before I realized I was never gonna be a fighter pilot because my eyes are terrible

spk_0 And also I get terribly motion before I knew all these things many disqualifying factors

spk_0 I'm pretty sure the the the eyes are a problem, but I'm not sure they're the problem John

spk_0 uh, yeah, yeah, all right

spk_0 Then we have some information from Hans who writes alter ego seems to have been an MIT project first

spk_0 And very suspiciously the man in the alter ego video doesn't show the left side of his head

spk_0 It might look more like this and this was the image that I was talking about

spk_0 That was distracting me about the cheek thing and we will put a link to the show notes to

spk_0 A post on the MIT I guess like media lab media center something along those lines

spk_0 Where they talk about this and again to John's point from April of 2018

spk_0 Yeah, and you couldn't see the side of the person's face

spk_0 But you could see enough of their face to know that I think that their sensors were only like sort of over your years again

spk_0 Kind of like a bone induction headphone

spk_0 This thing had a sensor that was touching your chin like underneath your lower lip

spk_0 I think that would have been visible if that was in the video

spk_0 But I think they've just

spk_0 Using they're not using sensors in that location if the alter ego demo video anyway. That is true

spk_0 CJ writes I'm a doctor slash neurologist with and neuroscience researcher

spk_0 I was listening to your overtime discussion of the alter ego device and agree that it would be very unlikely to be able to reliably

spk_0 Reen braid brain signals or EEG my group is trying to analyze walking in Parkinson's disease patients with

spk_0 Electrodes deep in the brain or with 64 carefully placed contacts on the scalp

spk_0 And that is hard enough in lab conditions. There's always way too much noise

spk_0 And so a consumer device with a very limited contact area to the scalp is unlikely to get enough usable EEG signal to work even with AI noise suppression

spk_0 So it makes sense when I looked into it that it appears to be that the device is only measuring

spk_0 muscle

spk_0 signals EMG in the here we go in the

spk_0 Temporo mandibular joint. Oh, I think I got it. All right. Look at me go

spk_0 Old versions of the device had more contacts targeting the mouth and tongues

spk_0 They appear to have refined it since then see the video which we will link in the show notes

spk_0 Electro myography or EMG is a technique for evaluating and recording the electrical activity produced by skeletal muscles

spk_0 We'll put a link to the Wikipedia page in the show notes and additionally

spk_0 In electro in cephalography EEG is a method to record an electrogram of the spontaneous electrical activity in the brain

spk_0 Holy Jamolese. I can't believe I'm mostly keeping this together

spk_0 So many syllables. Yeah, that's that's the section I was trying to make but I didn't know these terms when we talked about a EMG versus EEG

spk_0 Continuing from CJ reading EMG signals as much easier as the muscles are only millimeters away and have much less noise

spk_0 Maybe there are some accelerometers as well

spk_0 Therefore, there's no potential for reading thoughts as noted in the video

spk_0 It's unclear to me whether or not the tiny movements associated with silent speech

spk_0 They are reading are unintentional or need to be developed as a technique to use the device

spk_0 Given the sensors and location of the demonstrated device

spk_0 I see no reason the sensors could not be placed in glasses arms or indeed in the AirPods Pro

spk_0 See he does another technical time for the glasses arms now we do now who's a neuroscientist? Yeah sticks

spk_0 They're called temples

spk_0 The basic signal processing is much less complicated than the audio processing the AirPods already do and then the AI could presumably run on the iPhone

spk_0 If it is working on EMG signals

spk_0 I would not expect that the interpretation would be much more complicated than audio to speech

spk_0 In regards to John's question of being able to measure intention to act or speak which these devices are not doing

spk_0 This is a well-established research methodology and neuroscience particularly in functional MRI

spk_0 We're able to see the main motor areas light up

spk_0 In a functional MRI scan when a patient imagines walking and we see how it is different with different diseases such as Parkinson's

spk_0 But yes, it has was has more recently been shown that further networks are engaged when a movement actually occurs compared to an only imagined

spk_0 Yeah, so I'm still interested in these things the EMG

spk_0 Muscle thing especially since well there's a couple angles this this this person is saying that he thinks that uh the thing that the alter ego is doing could be done in an air pod

spk_0 or glasses

spk_0 Well for us the the metterayban glasses have the wrist strap that is also an EMG measuring thing

spk_0 It's measuring the you know

spk_0 Electrical signals to to the muscles in your fingers to tell what fingers you're moving that product is out now

spk_0 And then we'll probably have a story next week about the late breaking thing that happened today

spk_0 About apples plans to compete with uh

spk_0 Metas glasses and whether or not they'll have some kind of a EMG reading

spk_0 Aspect to it or whether it will just be air pods on long sticks with cameras in the hands five years from now

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spk_0 Let's continue with our first impressions and I have nothing to say about this because I have only barely interacted with them

spk_0 But I presume Tina has gotten a tech woven case

spk_0 Yeah, that was her first she's always willing to try that whatever the new cases from Apple

spk_0 She actually got the fine woven case and used it for the entire two years that she had the phone

spk_0 It's pretty rough looking but you know she

spk_0 Thought it was fine. I came out of college that she liked she didn't mind how it felt she didn't mind that the edges got nicked up or whatever

spk_0 So when the tech woven case is that it's all right. Well, we'll try that one too

spk_0 she

spk_0 Is a wallet person like a max-safe wallet person so where she puts it on the back of her phone

spk_0 She keeps her cards and driver less than stuff in there

spk_0 And so she got the whatever it's I guess it's still the fine woven wallet right it's the

spk_0 tech woven case but the fine woven wallet. It's a very confusing line, but she got both of those

spk_0 And the tech woven case I've checked it out. She put her phone in it and I'm it's very

spk_0 It's very sort of scratchy and like the bump line at a very regular

spk_0 I don't know if you've if you've seen it a person you felt how it's what it's like

spk_0 It's kind of plasticky

spk_0 It's you know, it's not fine woven the what weaving is very coarse. It's not fine

spk_0 But whatever it is it's like lumpy plastic. So it's like lots of lots of little lumps

spk_0 and the problem with that

spk_0 Is that it provides the mag-safe wallet with less surface area where it is contacting the case

spk_0 And that results in less friction

spk_0 And so she rejected and returned the tech woven case based entirely on the fact that the wallet

spk_0 Slid off sideways too easily because it didn't have the friction

spk_0 It wasn't like the surface area like it's touching a tech woven case

spk_0 But it's only touching the tips of all the tiny little mountains and the tech woven case

spk_0 And that doesn't provide that we did an experiment with you know of all the different surface interior

spk_0 So that got rejected she got an apple silicone case because she wanted to try the the body strap

spk_0 Blanured whatever the thing cross body strap

spk_0 And Apple's cases have the little attachment points for that

spk_0 That was interesting because I was wondering about this from seeing the pictures. Do you have the cross body strap?

spk_0 No, I touched one extremely briefly at the Apple store and it seemed nice

spk_0 But I didn't like put it on or anything like that so that you you now know everything I know about them

spk_0 Yeah, so she was willing to try that as well

spk_0 It's like maybe that'll be fun and of course apples cases have the little corner things on it

spk_0 If you've seen it in the store or the pictures of it you know that the things attached to the corner of apples cases

spk_0 By these very very thin I figure what they're made of someone sent us the name what they think it is

spk_0 but very thin strong like thread type material

spk_0 uh, and

spk_0 I was wondering like you know how how easy is it to take that on or off like you do have to like

spk_0 You know tie it onto the case and then it's there permanently or whatever the answer is that

spk_0 The the attachment things on the cross body strap have a little like metal bar

spk_0 And then the cross body strap wraps around that bar and snaps on the other side of it to itself

spk_0 So it holds the bar and the bar has the string coming out of it

spk_0 So you can pretty easily unstrap uh, unsnap the cross body strap on both ends

spk_0 And then remove your phone, but now your phone has two little metal

spk_0 Cross bars dangling from it by about a an inch of very thin string

spk_0 So I don't think anyone would want to use their phones like that

spk_0 So you basically have to take the case off and unthread the threads the other thing is to get those threads

spk_0 It's a loop of threads. It's just you know, it's like a metal bar with a loop of thread

spk_0 And that loop does not come out of the metal bar it is in the metal bar. There's no way to remove it

spk_0 So to get it through the little thing you have to

spk_0 If you have big cameras

spk_0 Marco knows about this maybe also Casey the way the the camera straps attached to most cameras with the little loop that you loop through and then you put the strap through the loop

spk_0 You know

spk_0 I don't know how to describe it, but anyway

spk_0 You don't have to it's a continuous loop and you just loop it over on itself

spk_0 But she had to use a needle threader

spk_0 To get through the case because she couldn't get like you're trying to like it's just like a loop of thread

spk_0 And you're trying to shove it through she can get through the first hole

spk_0 But then get it to make a U-turn and go through the second hole to come back out

spk_0 She couldn't do it had to use a needle threader

spk_0 So that was a little bit unusual friendly and it really you really are committing to the cross body strap because like I said

spk_0 The only way to get it off is to take your phone out of the case

spk_0 And then carefully unthread those things and you know pass the bar through the little thing and it's just

spk_0 It's not a simple

spk_0 I think there's room for improvement on the cross body strap in terms of ease of connecting and disconnecting

spk_0 From the case. I'm not sure what the solution is

spk_0 But the first try it seems yeah

spk_0 The strap itself is fine. It's magnetic to itself. Anyway, so she replaced her tech woven case with the apple silicone case

spk_0 Which she's used many times before she's destroyed many of those came in a fun color

spk_0 The wallet the fine the new fine wall of wall it sticks to it way way better

spk_0 And also I suggested to her you know if you don't like the tech woven and you're just so so about the silicone

spk_0 What about a leather case? She got the bull strap leather case and also she was uh one over by the

spk_0 marketing of the

spk_0 bull strap

spk_0 leather wallet which is a fine to my device so it's thicker than a regular wallet

spk_0 But it has an actual kind of like air tag type thing in the wallet itself as opposed to just the apple thing where when it comes off

spk_0 The phone knows where it fell off and we'll tell you about it

spk_0 This actually has an air tag in the wallet. So leather

spk_0 Bull strap case with leather wallet on it very good friction between the two of them harder to slide off sideways

spk_0 I think the best friction is probably her old sort of broken in leather she had a leather wallet back when an apple leather wallet

spk_0 She has one of those it's very well broken in that on the back of leather case or that on the back of the silicone case

spk_0 It's probably the strongest attachment, but uh that's that's her review slash my conveying of her thoughts on all of the cases

spk_0 I thought the bull strap case was nice. She got it in a weird like pinkish leather color

spk_0 Which is not to my taste, but she likes it, but I thought it was kind of bulky

spk_0 We should put a link in the show. It says Stephen Robles um

spk_0 leather iPhone case review

spk_0 He also mentioned that some cases are thicker or thinner than others

spk_0 Even though they're all just leather cases. They're not like it's like you know

spk_0 Whatever that plastic shell or something leather wrapped around it. They vary in thickness significantly

spk_0 But she likes the leather one that's what the one she's using

spk_0 But she also has this silicone one for the cross body strap

spk_0 Which I'm not sure how often she'll use that because currently the silicone case is sitting on the desk behind me

spk_0 And it just not have those little dangly strap things on it

spk_0 And if she wants to put the munch, she needs to use a needle thread or so

spk_0 I don't see that happening that often

spk_0 But for this year, I would say tech woven is more successful than fine woven with the caveat that if you're gonna put a wallet on it

spk_0 You're gonna get less friction

spk_0 All right, I will say also um I my

spk_0 iPhone 17 pro case situation is not resolved yet

spk_0 I have I really enjoyed last year. I really enjoyed the nomad

spk_0 Magnetic leather back that was just the back made of leather that would go over the whole back of the phone

spk_0 And you could feel the leather on the sides just like you know kind of because it's

spk_0 It goes to the edge of the phone

spk_0 But it wasn't wrapped around the side so it gave a lot of grip and made it you know more stable on a surface

spk_0 And it would you know, it wouldn't slide off of slanted things and you know

spk_0 It really improved the ergonomics of the phone

spk_0 But you were still using like the naked sides of the phone

spk_0 Which was really nice for like having the nice buttons and being able to see the the side finish and everything

spk_0 I ordered one of these for the 17 pro and unfortunately

spk_0 Because of the shape of the mesa that which now goes or the plateau

spk_0 Which now goes all the way across

spk_0 The nomad it has a magnet in the middle on the mags if area and it has those like micro suction tape patches on the corners

spk_0 Well, it used to have one on the upper corner like adjacent to the camera plateau

spk_0 But now that there's no room for that because the you know the mesa or the plateau goes all the way across

spk_0 It only has those sticky pad corners

spk_0 Like on the flat part of the phone area which and I posted a little video to master on the problem is then there's nothing

spk_0 Holding the case back against the phone along the top edge above the mesa

spk_0 So it kind of just like flaps in the breeze like it creates a gap. It doesn't sit flush

spk_0 You know stuff will get stuck in there

spk_0 So it's basically in my opinion the nomad magnet back is unusable on the 17 pro

spk_0 So I actually returned it like I'm like this. I cannot

spk_0 I can't believe they shipped it honestly and they shouldn't have unfortunately because and it's a shame because I loved it on the 16 pro

spk_0 And what I'm doing right now I believe I mentioned last episode that

spk_0 Until my 17 cases come in I just cut the top off of my

spk_0 Net my 16 pro leather back from nomad and just so it rests under the camera bump and I've just been using that

spk_0 It's not this is not a good solution. It doesn't line up correctly in the bottom edge

spk_0 It looks ridiculous

spk_0 But it does provide a lot of grip. So this is what I'm still doing

spk_0 Um, I've ordered a couple other things to try they're not here yet

spk_0 So more to come in the future, but the iPhone 17 pro case story remains

spk_0 um unsolved for me. I will say I did handle a tech woven case in the Apple store and I thought it was very nice and in fact

spk_0 They they seem to be selling very well because the Apple stores that I keep the like walking by like I'll

spk_0 Breeze in and see like I was in Grand Central earlier today. I looked at theirs and

spk_0 They're sold out of most of the good tech woven colors for most phone models

spk_0 The tech woven cases seem to be doing very well with iPhone buyers

spk_0 So there's something there. I do think I will probably end up preferring something else

spk_0 But uh, again time will tell

spk_0 All right, who has an iPhone 17 in the family that apparently has some thoughts

spk_0 Yeah, well, I mean they're sitting on the desk right next to me

spk_0 They're still in their boxes like I haven't had much experience with them

spk_0 So I guess I don't have much to say about that. I wondered what the timing was with the when my kids would be getting these but apparently they're gonna wait until

spk_0 They're fall break in October

spk_0 So these I I did

spk_0 Take the phones out of the box and put their cases on them just because that's I like to get the phone into the case before

spk_0 The phone is covered with fingerprints whereas no one else in my family cares about that at all

spk_0 So they will take the phone out and handle it for 15 minutes and then take the food and crushed

spk_0 Finger bit front covered thing and sticking inside a clear case

spk_0 So I got them directly out of the box immediately into the clear place barely even touching it

spk_0 My son's got a silicone case so they're all ready to go waiting for their

spk_0 Their phones to come to do a data transfer

spk_0 But no, they're nice. They look nice. They're normal. They have you know

spk_0 I have nothing exciting to say about them. They are extremely unsurprising, but they haven't yet been set up

spk_0 All right airpods pro three Marco remind me you did get a pair. I assume I did okay

spk_0 Would you like to start a shall I really don't carry the way um?

spk_0 Okay, oh

spk_0 I return them oh

spk_0 Interesting. Why is that all right? So this I did not expect this I'll tell you that

spk_0 um

spk_0 By all accounts they they are much better on paper

spk_0 They do have significantly better noise cancellation which is impressive because it was already like for any of your buds

spk_0 It would even the twos were already pretty good

spk_0 But the threes were even better

spk_0 The sound quality is indeed better. I wouldn't say it's like you know world changing better

spk_0 It's still not to the level of full-time headphones, but it does come a lot closer

spk_0 And they are certainly good enough that like by noise cancellation and sound quality metrics alone

spk_0 Barring other factors. I would not recommend anybody ever get like the airpods max for instance like I think the airpods pro

spk_0 Three if they fit you and if they're comfortable and if they fit your you know for other like if they work physically for you

spk_0 I think they're the better product in every possible way. They sound great

spk_0 They have the best everything like feature-wise their way ahead um my problem is

spk_0 The airpods pro three fit very differently than the twos

spk_0 This is not like a little tweak like you know one from airpods pro one to two as far as I can tell there was no fit

spk_0 difference

spk_0 From two to three this might as well be a different product like this is a very different fit. Did you lose the air lottery?

spk_0 I did so and now so here's so

spk_0 I guess I can count myself lucky that I have had a pretty good ear situation with the airpods pro two

spk_0 But not with the original airpods right so you're not on on on off with the air lottery. Yeah

spk_0 So the threes fit very differently and mainly the threes have the

spk_0 The ear tip seems to go further into your ear and it seems to

spk_0 You know push harder against the ear area. So it does come with different size tips

spk_0 I tried I it starts out with medium and then it has like small and extra small and

spk_0 I I kept going down in size whenever I would like I would try like try for a couple hours on one size

spk_0 It's a little uncomfortable. I'm like, you know, maybe the next day I'd you know reset my ears next day

spk_0 Put new tips on try it again

spk_0 And there was no ear tip combination that I found that made these not just hurt after a couple hours of wearing

spk_0 and that is a problem for me and every time I you know, I put him in and be like

spk_0 Kind of kind of hurts kind of uncomfortable

spk_0 But let's see what let me give it a shot. I would try adjusting. I try wiggling them different angles, you know every adjustment I could make

spk_0 There is no combination that didn't result in pain after you know generally about an hour or two

spk_0 Uh, and the twos I've the twos don't hurt at all ever they have never in never in a thousand years

spk_0 I've the twos hurt the threes just hurt my ears and I think they aren't as secure in my ears either

spk_0 And again, I've tried tried different ear tips tried different angles

spk_0 They I couldn't get them to fall out

spk_0 But they seemed like felt less secure submit it can it could just be psychological

spk_0 um

spk_0 But they do not work for me

spk_0 Uh, and then every time like when I would when I would go back to my AirPods pros twos

spk_0 You know, after my ears would hurt I'd give them a break and go back to the twos so I could continue operating in my life

spk_0 Uh, and the twos it's like going home to like a well-worn couch, you know

spk_0 It's like the twos. Wow fits so comfortably for me

spk_0 It's a night and day difference

spk_0 And so I don't really know what to do like I think the threes

spk_0 Uh, if there were no other products like this if I didn't have the twos if the twos never existed

spk_0 I might buy the threes and just use them for short times because like the feature set is that compelling

spk_0 But as long as my twos continue to work

spk_0 I'm gonna continue to use them. It's kind of like we like our discussion about the uh the natural scrolling direction on Apple's mask my soundtrack bad like

spk_0 I can still use the old ones so I'm gonna keep using them because I like them way better

spk_0 They work way better for me. They don't sell the twos anymore do they?

spk_0 Uh, they don't but Amazon does and they're on sale so I got myself a second

spk_0 I got myself a backup pair

spk_0 You didn't think about getting a third party ear tips for the three because the maybe you just don't like the ones with the foam embedded in them

spk_0 I did so the way that they are achieving the better isolation and the better base response is with better

spk_0 Physical blockage of the ear canal from the outside world. That's how like

spk_0 You know the noise cancellation. They're doing small electronic things with with feedback and everything like that's part of noise cancellation

spk_0 But a huge part of why it got better is

spk_0 They are much more aggressively sealing out the outside world with the fit

spk_0 I think it's going deeper in the ear. It certainly is like sealing against the walls of the ear

spk_0 Harder it's like pushing harder against the walls of the ear whatever it is

spk_0 They have they have significantly changed the way these fit to to be further into my ears and

spk_0 It's just it's doesn't work for me. It doesn't work and so again, I don't

spk_0 I hope the two to continue to work for a while

spk_0 And to answer your question John like I don't think I don't think third party ear tips would actually fix my problem

spk_0 Because it isn't that the ear tips aren't soft enough

spk_0 It's that

spk_0 They're they're they move them like they sit differently in my ear in a place that is far more intrusive and invasive

spk_0 And far less comfortable and causes pain after a while

spk_0 If you got third party ear tips that were half the depth. I don't know if they would fit

spk_0 Or if they would keep them in my ears if they if they like you know put them further out

spk_0 I don't know

spk_0 I were you afraid of staying within the return when you're because I'm kind of shocked that you return these without the opportunity to buy more

spk_0 stuff which is I buy I bought the 17 third party ear tips to see which one see if I'm even fix the problem

spk_0 Honestly, I wouldn't at this point

spk_0 I wouldn't trust third party ear tips for the AirPods pros three is to really exist yet that were any that were at all like reasonably considered

spk_0 So like maybe and maybe I'll try in a few months to look around but again like right now like well my twos work great

spk_0 So I kind of I think I'm just going to sit this generation out and see what happens

spk_0 I and I'm really

spk_0 Honestly, I'm really disappointed to have to do that because again the rest of it

spk_0 I do like the increased noise cancellation although that's obviously if that comes at the cost of

spk_0 Blowing up my ears. Maybe I don't like that. I do like the better sound quality. That's nice

spk_0 I like the fact that the new ones are water resistant like there's a lot that I wish I could enjoy about the new ones

spk_0 But they just don't fit me

spk_0 So I am ecstatic to report that I have yet to lose the ear lottery

spk_0 As I knock on wood because my time will come

spk_0 um

spk_0 In terms of fitment uh, I think these fit me just fine

spk_0 There's definitely a tighter seal against my ear canal um, I wouldn't say it's uncomfortable but for me

spk_0 Uh, I wouldn't say it's uncomfortable, but it is noticeably tighter and the tips give less

spk_0 That sounds like an indictment and I actually don't mean it as such. It's fine for me

spk_0 But it is noticeably different that being said the ANC

spk_0 Well, let me back up. I have step the reviews that I initially read or watched was that oh my god

spk_0 These things are perfect. I cannot believe how great they are. I will I would buy a million of them if I could

spk_0 You know from I forget who like mqbhd had a really good review

spk_0 I feel like there were a couple others. I forget who um that all said these are absolute win top to bottom

spk_0 I

spk_0 My opinion is more tempered than that. These are an improvement for sure

spk_0 And there are a couple of ways that I think they're a vast improvement, but

spk_0 I would temper one's expectations if you have not yet bought these and are looking to buy them

spk_0 They are better and for me I'm getting into a usbc case which is chef's kiss

spk_0 Even though I almost never charge the case with a cable it is still so nice to have one less lightning thing in my life

spk_0 And if you're the kind of person like me that uses airpods on and off all day long pretty much every day

spk_0 It's I guess to some degree it is an absolute win unless you lose the ear lottery

spk_0 But the ANC I would say it's better

spk_0 I wouldn't say it's dramatically better now. It is possible that maybe I need to use different tips

spk_0 I did do an ear what is an ear fit test whatever they call it and it said they were fine

spk_0 But I haven't actually tried any of the other tips yet

spk_0 So perhaps going up a size or something like that would increase the

spk_0 The isolation and maybe that would make it worlds better, but I just used I've only used the stock tips

spk_0 The standard ones that were attached to them when they came out of the case and the ANC is good

spk_0 When I was on the plane back from Memphis

spk_0 I went back and forth with my two's and my threes and

spk_0 The threes were better

spk_0 But you know, I heard some people talk about how like the plane just

spk_0 Disappeared and I feel like maybe I heard Jason talk about that. I might have that one. Yeah, just like that

spk_0 I wouldn't say that was my experience

spk_0 Which I'm not trying to say he's wrong. I'm just talking about what I have experienced here that Jason case is saying you're wrong

spk_0 You have currently or have you had a pair of over-ear noise canceling headphones to compare with on plane flights?

spk_0 Not in probably 15 years when the technology was kind of like the the extra bit of foam blocking sound and wedging itself in your ear

spk_0 Another thing that can block a lot of sound is the gigantic piece of plastic

spk_0 For your ear and I haven't tried

spk_0 I don't like things in my ear hole so I don't use the little ear buds

spk_0 But I always do wonder about

spk_0 The trade-offs on a plane in particular. It uses the air for a long time

spk_0 There's there's like an obvious drone noise that you want to cancel out

spk_0 I use the over-ear ones, but over-ear ones can make your head sweaty and even they can press on your face and like be uncomfortable after hours

spk_0 But I also don't like things in my ear holes and I know lots of people who swear by the pros on the

spk_0 plane as great noise canceling over there. I'm like, but how could something that tiny cancel it?

spk_0 But I guess if they just wedged themselves in your ear holes

spk_0 Well enough they can get the job done

spk_0 That's why I was wondering if you were comparing the twos in the threes if you had a pair of over-ear

spk_0 Canceling headphones to compare to both of those how they compared but I mean over ears can can usually do significantly better on planes for the actual noise cancellation

spk_0 but

spk_0 When like the reason why I don't carry over ears on planes anymore is that they're huge

spk_0 Like they they take up your entire carry on back and like the airpods

spk_0 Sonies come in a really small case. They fold up real small. It's nice. Yeah, but it's it's nothing

spk_0 I have the sonies. I know what you're talking about. I mean, yes, obviously the airpods are smaller

spk_0 But although I will you know, we did note that the airpods three case actually got a little bigger

spk_0 So if we just graph only just in the year 2162 the airpods case would bigger than the sony headphones

spk_0 It's nothing it is nothing like what you think like

spk_0 It is so hot like that it is so comically small like the the airpods pro case versus the the headphones

spk_0 My wife has airpods for all I know how big it is making joke making it's like an infinite timeline joke

spk_0 extrapolate look at the graph. Oh my gosh

spk_0 All right, well, it's worth noting and I think I've said this before but my airpods when I'm when it's jeans season

spk_0 Which we are quickly angling into jeans season here in Richmond

spk_0 My airpods live in my little change pocket on my right side

spk_0 You know what I'm talking about like the little baby pocket on your right hand side that at least for boys anyway

spk_0 The iPod nano pocket. Yeah, the iPod nano pocket exactly. That's where my airpods live and

spk_0 And they're always on me. They're basically always on me and I would not have the and I know you're kidding

spk_0 But I would not have those sonies always on me and honestly

spk_0 I'd rather not even have them in my carry on if I could avoid it

spk_0 Because I have the time I have my stupid vision pro

spk_0 That's all that's something that picks a lot of room in your case. Exactly

spk_0 If it's anyway, the sony headphones and the vision pro case you're not wrong

spk_0 The ANC it was better. It was not to me night and day better

spk_0 um

spk_0 And in general like I mode the I mode the yard today and you know

spk_0 Definitely dramatically reduced or I guess attenuated

spk_0 I think is a technical word I'm looking for the volume of the

spk_0 lawnmower but I would not say it disappeared by any stretch of the imagination

spk_0 Which again makes me wonder if I should try some of the larger sizes and see if they fit and if they work better etc

spk_0 But it's not a regression. I don't think but the fact that I'm saying I don't think is probably not a good sign

spk_0 Also in the case which by the way is indeed bigger but is so

spk_0 Barely bigger that I mean I it's hard I I can only notice when I'm holding both of them at the same time

spk_0 Like otherwise I can't really tell the difference

spk_0 But what's interesting about them is in the AirPods Pro 2

spk_0 The tips are angled fairly steeply. I would say at a glance it's at like a I don't know

spk_0 I was gonna say like a 45 degree angle

spk_0 I think that's a bit dramatic but they're angled if as they're sitting in the case they're angled down and pointing toward the center of the case

spk_0 Whereas these point almost laterally like they're almost at a 90 degree angle

spk_0 It's hard to do this yeah, I'm trying to paint a word picture and I'm probably not doing the greatest job

spk_0 But they sit very differently in the case which also means they wiggle quite a bit more in the case

spk_0 It's not a big deal and I am 100% nitpicking but I see I noticed it enough that I find it lightly off-putting

spk_0 that being said

spk_0 There are two things that oh I'm sorry. There's one other complaint. I have them two absolute compliments

spk_0 Connected I believe it was mentioned this but the light for the like charging and already charged and pairing and all that

spk_0 It used to have like a cut out in the front of the case where the light would shine through

spk_0 Now it just shines through the case which makes for a better look generally speaking

spk_0 But mother of God this light is so bright

spk_0 Yes, a lot brighter

spk_0 Viculously bright which 99.9% of the time does not matter

spk_0 But I opened the case once when Aaron was asleep and I happened to have the

spk_0 The case pointed in her general direction. I was like oh Jesus Christ

spk_0 You know like I didn't want to wake her up and I'm being a little bit hyperbolic

spk_0 But truly the light is ridiculously bright and I'm pretty sure they talked about that I'm connected

spk_0 Um couple of really good things though

spk_0 number one

spk_0 The base response to my ears is

spk_0 Nightingay better. I never thought the base was bad in the arpaad pro air pods pro two air pod pros to whatever you know what I'm saying

spk_0 um

spk_0 I think it is worlds better in this one where the the twos

spk_0 It sounded good

spk_0 But it almost sound I don't know how to verbalize it, but it almost sounded like

spk_0 And interpretation of where the base was and what the base should sound like

spk_0 Where's the threes? This is what base actually sounds like and for some like perhaps Marco

spk_0 And I don't mean that to be snarky. I'm being genuine perhaps for you

spk_0 You would find that off putting because I know or at least my recollection is that you generally don't care for base heavy

spk_0 mixes

spk_0 Okay fair enough. Um, I don't like

spk_0 You know beat style mixes words just

spk_0 but

spk_0 I don't I don't dislike a more base heavy mix and

spk_0 The base in these seems much more airy and a good way seems like the soundstage seems much wider is particularly with regard to base

spk_0 I think the base sounds incredible. That is a vast improvement over over the old ones

spk_0 And I again did not I would not have said oh yes the base needs to get considerably better in the twos

spk_0 I never would have thought that but now having had the threes

spk_0 It got significantly better one thing. I'll say on that. So you know base response in

spk_0 Headphones especially like in tiny headphones like this base response really needs a good seal

spk_0 And so you will see we'll have different people have very different reactions to it

spk_0 That that might explain why like you know you were saying like to you

spk_0 It's a big difference and on some people have reported a small difference or they don't know those the difference

spk_0 Base reads like good base you need a good seal and and again this this is kind of what they did with the with

spk_0 Their design choices here with three is like they went for a much stronger seal

spk_0 To get better base response and to get better noise cancellation at the possible expensive comfort for a lot of people and fit challenges

spk_0 So you know whether that was their idea for them. It depends on whether if you were not

spk_0 But but that is the trade off there

spk_0 Also on the treble response like so well

spk_0 I've heard I've seen and heard a lot of people complaining that the pro threes sound

spk_0 To harsh or to sharp or you know

spk_0 I've heard like too digital or like too Chris. Oh, I wouldn't say that all those are all different ways of saying the same thing

spk_0 Those are all different ways of saying they have too much treble for you

spk_0 And I did notice that the treble response is very noticeably stronger than the twos and

spk_0 treble response is a very

spk_0 Personal thing and like what you want out of your headphones

spk_0 And if you look at high-end headphone reviews all they're all over the place because each reviewer

spk_0 Wants a different amount of treble response and you know what you hear is you you'll hear people who who think that the listening to too much treble

spk_0 They'll describe it as like fatiguing or again sharp or harsh

spk_0 And people who you know are listening to something with bad treble response or low treble response

spk_0 They'll describe it as like warm. This sounds warm. What that means is it's kind of muffled

spk_0 There's not a lot of treble like it but it's very relaxing and it's you know a low treble kind of warmer tone

spk_0 Is less fatiguing to your ears over a long time so it's it's nice

spk_0 You get you but you hear a little bit less detail and high energy and high high Christmas in the energy

spk_0 So anyway

spk_0 What they've done with with threes is they've pushed a treble I would say and I I like a lot of treble

spk_0 I think they've pushed it as high as they can and still be within the realm of what I like

spk_0 It's almost too much for me and I love treble

spk_0 So I I think what they should probably do

spk_0 Is give some kind of control over this like possible marker. We don't have the technology

spk_0 I know could you change the amount of different frequencies coming out of a speaker

spk_0 They'll have to invent something I guess right and like and that's the thing like when when air pods were not able to produce a lot of treble response

spk_0 Because they just weren't good enough yet

spk_0 This wasn't a problem. They were able to have no sound adjustment whatsoever because

spk_0 No sound that their air pods could produce was potentially offensive or objectionable to anybody

spk_0 It was not good enough to be offensive

spk_0 But now as they as they are getting higher fidelity higher response

spk_0 Stronger bass response stronger treble response less drop off at those extremes and they're frequency response

spk_0 All of their competitors in the like nice headphone the nice bluetooth headphone to the nice noise canceling headphones space

spk_0 They all offer audio tone controls through their apps every single one of them you can customize the amount of treble mid-range bass

spk_0 You know some of them are pretty simplistic some of them you can you know have like a whole parametric EQ

spk_0 But like they all offer customization

spk_0 Why?

spk_0 Because people want different things out of their sound profile

spk_0 I think that I think that the apple has outgrown now now that now that their headphones have gotten really good at

spk_0 General you know sound response across the whole spectrum

spk_0 They've outgrown the idea that they can just have like one tone that they just let everyone have and I think

spk_0 They've outgrown the idea of having one shape that these products can be to fit in one type of ear

spk_0 But hey, well, you know

spk_0 I'll keep arguing that over the next three years until they may be considered that but I mean they they did add more tips

spk_0 They used to have three tips now they add five so they are trying to be like I'm not sure what the alternative is like

spk_0 Kind of like the the visor things or whatever you can get air pods three with the a shape or the b shape or the c shape

spk_0 I don't know. I mean I honestly

spk_0 When I when I try the different tip sizes

spk_0 It didn't seem to make any difference in comfort at all to me

spk_0 Like no, I figure like oh if I maybe if I go smaller

spk_0 Maybe they'll be more of a risk of falling out of my ear or I'll lose the seal

spk_0 But they'll be more comfortable they weren't like they I did eventually lose the seal

spk_0 They did eventually you know risk falling out of my ear if I if I went too small

spk_0 But going smaller and smaller didn't actually improve the comfort for me at all

spk_0 I think it's a different it's a different issue than just the the very minute diameter differences of those pads

spk_0 But anyway all that is to say

spk_0 I think it's time apple adds a little bit more control over this now there are like there's different system level

spk_0 Like ways you can kind of tweak an EQ or have a hearing profile like so that like there's ways

spk_0 You can kind of hack some customization here although be careful with the hearing profile because if you if if you're old

spk_0 You probably can't hear high frequencies that well and what the hearing profile is gonna do is gonna crank them up

spk_0 And so if it's already too shrill for you in the high end don't apply your hearing profile to it if you're old

spk_0 But yeah, and and also like whatever whatever you apply within within apply to I think any headphones that you would wear

spk_0 Yeah, it's all audio. Yeah, which is not that's also not super desirable. Um, so

spk_0 I think it's time I hope Apple revisits the

spk_0 You know the comfort and fit here and and tries to get something more more universal they've measured a million years Marco

spk_0 That's what they'll say next year or two years, but not mine

spk_0 It's a shit the twos were great

spk_0 But anyway, Amazon is still selling the twos if anybody else has the same problem

spk_0 You can you can also buy a spare pair and I would suggest doing it soon because once these are like you know really out of all the channels

spk_0 Uh, you're gonna have a hard time finding you know new ones with new batteries. So good luck

spk_0 This is a million years and they measured them all that's reference john uh one final note on this one final

spk_0 I've got one done sound quality here

spk_0 So the uh on the subject of sound quality of these headphones

spk_0 There has been much a consternation among the reviewers about the sound quality some people like it some people don't

spk_0 My relationship with sound quality reviews

spk_0 Uh is mostly through a youtube channels that I watch I love it when youtube channels try to play the speakers

spk_0 In their video to try to let you know how they sound

spk_0 What is that about there's about a thousand things wrong

spk_0 Sorry, but anyway, uh because like just the chain of stuff from that speaker making noise to it going into my ear holes when I watch it on my phone

spk_0 Is like okay, we're just anyway um one of the channels that I like one of the channels that has found clever attempts to

spk_0 To be a youtube channel that reviews speakers in some constructive ways um always has

spk_0 An objective measurement section and a subjective part an objective measurements are great because you can put that

spk_0 on graphs and stuff and he always does this is it called errands audio corner he always does

spk_0 His subjective review and then he tries to figure out based on the objective results

spk_0 Why his subjective review was like that do it does it make sense?

spk_0 His subjective reviews way off or is like ah this thing that I heard on my subjective listening

spk_0 I can see it here on the graph and that is a good way to at least give people an idea of how a sound thing

spk_0 I speaker whatever might perform and then you can decide how much trebles you like

spk_0 What kind of response do you like and eventually you learn your tastes and you'll know if you would like this speaker or not

spk_0 Uh, I've never heard of this channel with someone's name. It's called the headphone show

spk_0 I've never seen it before but they also had essentially a subjective part and an objective part

spk_0 I think they have like a little ear-shaped machine where they shove the air pod in and then they do like frequency response measurements

spk_0 With it shoved into the ear canal so they get like I mean who knows what shaped the little fake rubber ear is but anyway

spk_0 They're trying to get good good frequency response and you can see their graphs where they show that air pods to versus the air pods three

spk_0 And sure enough just like Mark said and much like Casey said the air pods three are have more base

spk_0 Than the two and they have more treble than the two not by much

spk_0 But doesn't take much changes in these graphs if you watch a lot of these videos you learn that like

spk_0 The lines being just separated by a little bit. It's it's audible because usually a logarithmic scale and stuff like that

spk_0 But I will say that both the air pods to and the air pod three do not have linear frequency response

spk_0 They are boosted in the base and they're boosted in the treble the mid range is nice and linear on you know

spk_0 It doesn't wiggle around too much and then the base

spk_0 I've heard a lot of people complain that's kind of flabby and not tight

spk_0 But like you can't really disagree

spk_0 Can't really see that in the frequency response graph

spk_0 But a lot of people thought like there is more base

spk_0 But they don't like the quality of it but that's in that again that's subjective listening and then the treble is

spk_0 Again, it's boosted on both of these. It's just boosted more slightly more on the threes and it's not flat

spk_0 And the thing with one of the things you learn from looking at all these graph and speakers is that you can tell

spk_0 Based on there's another measure they didn't do but Aaron's audio connoisse does

spk_0 Which is basically if this line doesn't have any wiggles in it this speaker will take well to equalization

spk_0 Which is deciding changing the frequency response, you know like a you know like I said 12 band 10 band equalizer or whatever

spk_0 If you see a response curve that you don't like you can say oh this has too much treble

spk_0 So I'll just turn the equalizer down on those high frequency bands and I can adjust it to sound how I like

spk_0 Not all speakers

spk_0 Take to equalization that well based on this thing that whatever this parameter is that

spk_0 I freaking I wish I remember what it was

spk_0 But anyway from watching the channel you just learned oh that line is nice and flat

spk_0 That means this this a speaker will EQ well and sure enough you can put it through an equalizer and say no

spk_0 Look I put it the way I wanted and I can make the curve how I wanted and if it's too much show for me

spk_0 I can turn it down but other speakers if you try to turn down the the treble with the equalizer

spk_0 It will screw up all the parts of the line and it won't be as linear anyway

spk_0 All this is to say that

spk_0 AirPods 2 and 3 are not linear speakers. They are

spk_0 Very much like tunes to be appealing to mass audiences which make sense for what they are

spk_0 They're trying to be a single product sold to millions of people

spk_0 They're not going to be like an audio file linear speaker

spk_0 The apple brand is different than the beats brand beats brand their curve is even heavier on the bass and lower on the treble

spk_0 And this is true of all speaker brands like what is the one that starts with it being not banging alson

spk_0 What's the you know or that's being um

spk_0 Bear dynamic the headphones. No, there's some speak some spin it might be banging alson

spk_0 But I'm I'm pretty anyway. There's there's certain speaker brands being w another one

spk_0 Yeah, I know that's not that one either um there's certain speaker brands and it's not Bose

spk_0 That have a rep they cost Brazilian dollars and have a reputation of having really

spk_0 Tons of treble like tons of high-end and exactly like marco said some people like oh, I hate that brand

spk_0 I find it teaking and shrill and it kills me

spk_0 And other people like oh that brand sounds the best I can hear every nuance of those violin strings or whatever

spk_0 That's personal taste. So it's good to see I haven't seen this for most of uh you right mark also that like

spk_0 I feel like the AirPods pro are good enough that they deserve this kind of treatment now whereas before it's like oh

spk_0 They they're nice. They go in my ears like regular AirPods now where they got now the graphs now

spk_0 The audio people looking at them and saying this is what AirPods are they are this u-shaped graph where it's lots of bass and lots of treble

spk_0 And the threes put more bass and more treble in and for the people on this show for the people on the headphone show

spk_0 It was over their limit. They said this is too much treble and they both hated the bass

spk_0 But for other people your miles may vary but just be aware that that's the product you're buying

spk_0 And it is interesting that they made that adjustment or either didn't make that adjustment

spk_0 But just you know the seal is providing that extra thing and also didn't provide those that was sarcasm before when I said this

spk_0 No technology this is called an equalizer like let people let people have some kind of adjusted

spk_0 We've had equalizers

spk_0 We've had analog equalizers for it like this is not a new technology

spk_0 If there's too much treble it should be possible to turn it down

spk_0 But it should be possible to adjust that frequency response curve

spk_0 So there's less bass or more bass less treble or more but you can even adjust the midband

spk_0 So all these bands go across the entire thing

spk_0 Equalization if the speaker takes well to equalization

spk_0 You can adjust it to sound better. So Marco. It's not going to help you with fitting in your ear

spk_0 But the fact that apple continues to provide so little adjustability for airbots pro really limits them because I feel like they

spk_0 They are capable of more than this and especially if you like everything about them

spk_0 But you just don't like the sound for listening to music which was true of lots of reviewers

spk_0 I saw a lot of youtube videos where they're like these are amazing love the transparency love the noise cancellation

spk_0 But they sound worse than the airpods pro too

spk_0 And I don't like how they sound and that's a shame that's that I feel like is perhaps fixable for

spk_0 Some some side of these people if they just provided basic equalization

spk_0 But I guess that's just too fiddly for apple

spk_0 And again like and you know I usually

spk_0 Professional headphone or speaker reviewers usually like a little bit less treble than I do like there's there's this thing called the harmon curve

spk_0 And for forever go like the harmon audio corporation

spk_0 Um

spk_0 Developed or came up with this this like kind of target frequency response curve like what people what is most pleasing to the most people

spk_0 Because it is not a flat response. It is not even response across the entire spectrum

spk_0 Most people have a certain balance like you know a little bit of extra bass you know a little bit of boost here and there a little bit of shape

spk_0 It's a shape of a line

spk_0 I know what shape it is because I put the I put the harmon curve into sound source the roguamiva thing

spk_0 As my preferred EQ for my external speakers. I like it harmon curve is appealing. Yes, most people do the pro so the problem is as

spk_0 As everybody has gotten better at designing speakers and headphones over the last you know 20 years like we've made huge advances in

spk_0 In the engineering behind developing these products

spk_0 What has happened is in order to optimize for the most market

spk_0 Almost everyone is now making their headphones and speakers try to match the harmon curve as close as possible

spk_0 So you have a whole bunch of things that all sound the same the AirPods Pro don't don't match it

spk_0 Yeah, AirPods Pro don't match it though by the way, but they don't definitely don't curve

spk_0 Yeah, because I like the way the AirPods sound and that's because what I know is what again

spk_0 What I know about myself and when I when I look at other reviews and when I look at frequency response grass

spk_0 I know I like a bit more in certain parts of the mid range like between like one and three K like a little boost there

spk_0 To get like a little bit more vocals and guitar presence like and then I like a decent treble response

spk_0 Not a like rolled off response where it plummets, you know after a certain amount

spk_0 But I also know that other reviewers don't like that

spk_0 So I I tend to go for choices that have a little bit more

spk_0 treble than most reviewers think is ideal

spk_0 So for me the AirPods Pro 3's sound great where they already are

spk_0 But if Apple wants to only have one tone that everyone gets

spk_0 What they're gonna have to do is issue a software update that changes their default tuning

spk_0 To be worse for me

spk_0 And that just that illustrates why this should be some kind of control and why again

spk_0 All of their other competitors in the headphone space they all have apps to offer basic tone controls at least

spk_0 Because people like different things and again now that they are capable

spk_0 Like now that these these drivers and these headphones have gotten so good

spk_0 So advanced that they're able to be so they're able to be

spk_0 Good enough to cause these kind of opinion differences to be a problem

spk_0 This is when you offer control

spk_0 So maybe they will we'll see

spk_0 By the way the speaker brand I'm pretty sure was Bowers and Wilkins

spk_0 Thank you to hairline one in the chat room for a drink

spk_0 BNW and you said no

spk_0 Yeah going

spk_0 You said BNW I didn't know it's the Trabowers and Wilkins

spk_0 All right one final thought on the airpods pro 3 I can talk

spk_0 This may all be in my head this may be a placebo. I don't know

spk_0 But I will use Transferencing mode and I will use noise cancellation

spk_0 Mostly have abandoned adaptive although I think I need to try again to be honest with you

spk_0 But anyways I typically flip flop between transparency and noise cancellation and with the airpods pro 2

spk_0 Transparency sounded really good

spk_0 But you could tell you were listening to a reproduction of what was happening around you

spk_0 In the same way that when you're wearing the vision pro

spk_0 It's really good, but you can tell you're looking through some you know humongous goggles at screens that are reproducing

spk_0 What you're seeing around you

spk_0 With the airpods pro 3

spk_0 Transparency is freaking transparent. It is unreal

spk_0 How real it sounds I should have thought that sentence out a little more, but

spk_0 It is just difficult to believe how

spk_0 Absolutely real transparency mode sounds for my ears anyway

spk_0 It's as though I don't have anything in my ears which is absolutely bananas to me

spk_0 But you know

spk_0 It's what it is and I love it for that all in all I do these do get my recommendation

spk_0 I do think that they are worth it

spk_0 But if you're coming from your pods pro 2 that you're happy with unless you're desperately seeking more base

spk_0 My personal experience is or or a usbc case if you don't know you have one

spk_0 My personal experiences that these are good. I wouldn't call them

spk_0 Requisite, you know, these are not must-buys

spk_0 But they are definitely good again, you know caveats about ear shapes and so on and so forth, but

spk_0 The the initial reviews and certainly the way they were presented that everything is better in every measurable way

spk_0 Yes, but I wouldn't say that everything is dramatically better the base to my ears dramatically better

spk_0 The soundstage better transparency mode quite a bit better

spk_0 Everything else it's a notch better, but I wouldn't say it's night and day

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spk_0 So let's do some ask ATP and let's start with Joshua Wald who writes

spk_0 On past episodes you've talked about the UK demand for encryption backdoors which by the way breaking news is back baby

spk_0 This brings up something I never fully understood. How do we know if anything is encrypted?

spk_0 Couldn't everything have backdoors? What if signal has a backdoor? I don't know john. What's what's up with that?

spk_0 So in some respects as just a consumer who doesn't know about the technical details you are essentially trusting

spk_0 the

spk_0 products that you buy they claim to have encryption

spk_0 uh the companies that make them that they

spk_0 are telling you the truth about the fact that it's encrypted and that they haven't made any mistakes when they implemented that encryption

spk_0 uh most of the time they are telling you the truth

spk_0 It's impossible not to make mistakes and so that's why there are security flaws and that's why they have patches and yada yada

spk_0 there's that

spk_0 but practically speaking okay but what if you are technical is there a way

spk_0 That people can tell whether apple is telling the truth about encrypting things

spk_0 Unlike the world of like linux or whatever where there's you know that you have the source code and even then you what you would say is okay

spk_0 We have the source code to linux

spk_0 But how do I know that this is the source code that you're using when you build your linux that's in your product right?

spk_0 So there's always that problem so

spk_0 Apple has tackled that in a couple different ways

spk_0 Their private cloud compute thing is one of the ways they try to tackle this where they're like

spk_0 We use the signed operating system images that we give to security researchers to say

spk_0 Here is the here is the binary that we're running and it's signed in a certain way and you can we can prove that it's signed because only a

spk_0 Signed thing would be able to answer this challenge or this but you know

spk_0 It's this whole sort of like math-based cryptogory thing to say we're gonna give you the binary that we're using

spk_0 And we're gonna try to give you a way to prove to yourself

spk_0 That that really is the binary that we're using but in the end as I forget the details of this but

spk_0 Very secure researchers had looked at it when the private cloud compute came out and said in the end

spk_0 There is still at the very bottom of this trust chain a place where you have to say

spk_0 I believe Apple is telling the truth about something or other

spk_0 It's very difficult to do sort of a zero trust thing and now please block Jane people please don't

spk_0 uh

spk_0 A zero trust thing that uh

spk_0 Doesn't waste all of our time

spk_0 Burning down the entire planet

spk_0 Apple has also provided for iOS. I believe they provide like to security researchers like

spk_0 Versions of their hardware and software for security ratios was to try to crack because

spk_0 compiled software and even encrypted compiled software running like there are you can do things to look into

spk_0 The hardware and software to see

spk_0 If it really is encrypting things

spk_0 Because if it's not it'll be trivial for you to get all the data right

spk_0 The iPhone is a very popular

spk_0 Just to give one example very popular target for security researchers because people want to crack the iPhone

spk_0 So if there was a back door somebody probably would have found it by now because that would be a very desirable thing to have

spk_0 They're finding amazing exploits that are just mind-boggling like this chains of 15 different exploits each of which is just

spk_0 You know you can't even believe each one of them and you need all of them to get through and now Apple just added that memory integrity protection that we talked about

spk_0 It's gonna make it even harder for everybody

spk_0 But yeah, so practically speaking even though you as a consumer can't really know this stuff

spk_0 You can have some faith that the entire world is trying to break into Apple software

spk_0 And they're gonna find all the flaws and if there was a back door

spk_0 They definitely would have found that I feel like by now because

spk_0 It's very hard to hide that given the access that people have to Apple's hardware and software to hide like back door like that

spk_0 Oh, you know everyone's you know you can get it to anyone's phone by typing this special password

spk_0 You know, it's a typical sort of silly back door but any kind of sort of

spk_0 Thing like that even though sophisticated back doors like there was um I forget the details connected to this

spk_0 But there was some speculation by the various people who are tend to be paranoid

spk_0 That some government

spk_0 Encryption algorithm maybe it was the yes, I forget but some sort of like government standardized encryption algorithm had some kind of flaw

spk_0 And the idea was that the NSA knew about the flaw when they made it a standard

spk_0 But since only the NSA knew about the flaw they enjoyed you know

spk_0 Some number of years where the entire world thought this was unbreakable but the NSA knew the mathematical weakness

spk_0 That's also kind of a back door

spk_0 It's not like oh if you use this one password you can get into everything the back door was like the NSA

spk_0 You know according to this conspiracy theory knew the weakness knew the mathematical weakness in this algorithm

spk_0 And so they could crack it in much less time than everyone else

spk_0 That would also qualify as a back door because it's like secret information that they know that you don't

spk_0 But if other people did know that then they could break it so

spk_0 In the end, it's very difficult to know for certain that

spk_0 um

spk_0 You know that your trust is founded

spk_0 But on Apple's platforms and on the iPhone in particular, I think you can have some faith just because

spk_0 So many smart people are trying all the time to break into it

spk_0 Tom Cole writes

spk_0 What do the neural engine cores and apples chips actually do?

spk_0 They spent years boasting about how the neural engines made them leaders in AI or ml

spk_0 The NLLMs came out and it turned out they needed to boost ram and were massively behind were whatever the neural engines for

spk_0 Just a technological dead end

spk_0 And so what do we do about this john? How do they work? What are they about?

spk_0 We've talked about this a while before it's actually difficult to look up technical details on this

spk_0 What are the neural engines do they do math? That's what all CPUs do, but like they do math um and

spk_0 Why why is there a separate thing

spk_0 Called the neural engine does math the whole the whole CPU does math like why do you need the separate thing

spk_0 the

spk_0 Thing the math that is useful to do that is required to do for machine learning and AI type stuff

spk_0 involves

spk_0 Lots of numbers so for example the math in the CPU you have an instruction to add two numbers together and puts the results someplace right

spk_0 But what if I told you that you're gonna have to add

spk_0 10 million numbers

spk_0 Not just two you could take the first two and add them and then take the second two and add them take the third two and add them

spk_0 You're like, oh, geez how many of these numbers are there?

spk_0 What if you could add a

spk_0 Thousand of them at the same time give me the first thousand numbers and the second thousand numbers

spk_0 And I will add the first thousand to the second thousand in the same amount of time that it takes me to add one number to another number

spk_0 That's what these

spk_0 Simd engines do single instruction multiple data don't just give me two numbers to add give me

spk_0 100 200 500 of these huge numbers it give me all the memory give them all together and I'll just take this huge

spk_0 Runch of numbers in these and then I'll same thing with multiply, you know

spk_0 I'm gonna multiply these numbers together and I put the result here and add it there

spk_0 That's the job that you have to do to run most of these machine learning algorithms and these specialized pieces of hardware are

spk_0 Engines that instead of taking two numbers and doing something with them two numbers to multiply two numbers to divide the take hundreds

spk_0 And they it's just you know, it's like it's massively parallel right and they can do this because

spk_0 They only do a certain small number of operations that are commonly done for like matrix multiplication and stuff like that

spk_0 Which if you take a course in school to learn about all the big square brackets in the numbers and how you do these things

spk_0 It's a certain number of operations that you're gonna have to end up doing a lot of and if you have huge amounts of numbers

spk_0 You can do it faster now

spk_0 Well, I was trying to look up is okay. That's the neural engine

spk_0 How does that differ from the sort of the existing simd units because if you remember back in the pentium days

spk_0 They had mmx and the power per se had alt-evec those are the first sort of popular simd engines

spk_0 Again single instruction multiple data the single instruction is add multiple data is

spk_0 200 two sets of 100 numbers or whatever

spk_0 There was smaller back than there were groups of five or six or whatever anyway

spk_0 The Apple SOCs have things that I'm called AMX units advanced matrix extensions

spk_0 Those I believe are like mmx and alt-evec they're like CPU instructions that you feed to the a19 or whatever

spk_0 And instead of going to the adder or like the

spk_0 The multiply units or whatever it goes to the AMX units, but it's part of the CPU

spk_0 It's so hard to find details about it. I'm sure people know but this will look in no way

spk_0 But I didn't know where to search on the web

spk_0 So I did find a a scientific paper called evaluating the Apple Silicon M series

spk_0 SOCs for HPC performance inefficiency HPC is high performance computing

spk_0 And they talked about the AMX units and then this is here's what they had to say about the neural engine

spk_0 The neural engine supports in date an fp16 precision that's integer 8 bit integers and 16 bit floating point precision

spk_0 As a hardware accelerator the neural engine operates independently of the CPU and GPU not as a co-processors such as AMX

spk_0 The neural engine delivers higher throughput for major operations that AMX but at a lower precision in fp16

spk_0 While this makes it highly efficient for air-related tasks

spk_0 Low numerical precision is not beneficial for traditional high performance computing workloads

spk_0 HPC applications requiring fp32 fp64 precision may not be fully benefit from the neural engine

spk_0 So the neural engine is separate

spk_0 It's not part of the CPU. It's a separate unit

spk_0 So it can operate independently while the the CPU is doing other things

spk_0 It's tailored for the kinds of data

spk_0 That are used in machine learning which is like 16 bit floating point not for 32 bit or 64 bit floating point

spk_0 Which you'd have to use the AMX or the SOCs regular units for

spk_0 And that that's what it's there for like and it's not a dead end

spk_0 That's that is still very useful in fact

spk_0 It's so useful they recently have those whatever neural cores to the GPU

spk_0 Which I'm assuming is the types of matrix math that is done inside the neural engine now

spk_0 There's a separate thing inside each GPU core that also can do that

spk_0 So if you're doing some kind of GPU or graphics related operation

spk_0 Are for using the GPU as a compute engine now you have

spk_0 Some really wide matrix stuff going on in there that wasn't there before

spk_0 A lot of it's probably branding neural engine versus AMX versus whatever everyone else calls their thing

spk_0 But that's the answer

spk_0 They do math on a lot of numbers at the same time because the things you need to do in machine learning and AI

spk_0 Require you to do math on a lot of numbers at the same time

spk_0 Finally for tonight Sean Harding writes

spk_0 I always try to keep my SSDs from getting too close to max capacity because I know that filling it up kills performance

spk_0 But why don't we hear about this for phones?

spk_0 Is the storage in the phones different enough that it doesn't suffer from this problem?

spk_0 Either only you ever filled the phone

spk_0 I feel like I've gotten close and I feel like when you get

spk_0 When you get really properly toward the end of your available storage it does

spk_0 Get ugly fast

spk_0 But I feel might my vibe check here is that Sean's right that you can be

spk_0 You can be pretty close on a phone and it will be all right

spk_0 Whereas if you get pretty close on a computer things are not all right

spk_0 Also like do we know

spk_0 How much this is still a problem with modern SSD controllers

spk_0 You know with with when SSDs were new

spk_0 This was a pretty substantial effect

spk_0 But there's been a lot of advances in you know how smart their controllers are how how advanced their

spk_0 How they operate and everything

spk_0 How much is this still the case?

spk_0 It's still a case

spk_0 Obviously, these are better than they used to be but there is a measurement

spk_0 I forget what they call it at the end of part of the world like over provisioning or something

spk_0 Of essentially how much

spk_0 Extra hardware is there in the SSD beyond it's kind of like when you have like a car

spk_0 Electric car battery that they tell you the capacity but really that's like 90% of the capacity

spk_0 They never let you fill it to 100%

spk_0 And then even within the 90% that a car software will also not let you fill the full 90%

spk_0 So they call the 90% 100 like

spk_0 There's there's how much is advertised to hold and there's how much is actually in there and enterprise SSDs have

spk_0 They're over provisioned in the amount of memory they have because the cells wear out over time

spk_0 And before those cells have worn out over time. I can imagine that will alleviate some of the problem

spk_0 But yes in all these cases

spk_0 There is still kind of the problem of

spk_0 Even with spinning discs like when you start to fill the thing up

spk_0 The number of choices of places you have to store a new data

spk_0 Become more limited when it's empty you can store it wherever it's most convenient across these three chips and these strips or whatever

spk_0 But as things you know and the old days get fragmented or whatever or as like cells wear out and you can't use the ones in this chip anymore

spk_0 Whatever and as the thing fills up you get fewer choices or you want to put stuff and having only one or two or three choices of where to put data

spk_0 Even if it's the not most efficient place to put it will slow things down

spk_0 So and phone SSDs are no different than any other SSDs in that respect in that if you do fill them up

spk_0 You reduce the number of choices and I can sell things down, but that's not your problem

spk_0 The real problem is

spk_0 iOS macOS

spk_0 The underlying Darwin operating system gets very upset

spk_0 When it runs out of disk space

spk_0 Even if the even if the SSD was like a quarter full say you partitioned your SSD and three quarters over just totally empty

spk_0 But the quarter of it that you're using is about to fill macOS is going to flip out

spk_0 Because if there are so many things in the operating system

spk_0 That expect to be able to have disk space on the mac for example the swap files

spk_0 If it's time to make a new swap file and it can't make one because there's not enough disk space

spk_0 Because they're going to go bad real fast if certain things try to write to the disk and they get no space left on device back from the operating system

spk_0 And that part of the operating system expected that never to happen and doesn't handle that failure well bad things happen

spk_0 And so that's the real danger for

spk_0 You should worry about for filling your SSD your spinning disk or anything is that most operating systems and especially apples operating systems

spk_0 Do not behave well when they run out when they start to run out of disk space

spk_0 When anything that expects like surely I'll always be able to write this one little file here with this like

spk_0 Process idea in it or something and that and it can't do that

spk_0 How good is the error handling is this is cascade of like well? I couldn't do this. Therefore this thing happened

spk_0 Could this or it does it just fall on the floor and things start to fail

spk_0 bad things happen and the other the thing other thing about phones is and like max as we discussed in the past

spk_0 How much space is left on your phone's SSD?

spk_0 You're going to go into settings general iPhone storage and look at that graph and think you get information out of that

spk_0 That graph is a lot of hand wave right and there's and as we discussed with the APFS stuff in the max stuff

spk_0 There's not actually a good solid answer to that question of how much space is left

spk_0 Especially on iOS where the OS has such control about things that it can purge and stuff like that

spk_0 And there is the race of like well the operating system needs to write this thing

spk_0 But this this thing is purging like old iCloud stuff at the same time and who's going to win that race

spk_0 So yeah, I think

spk_0 I think the answer for why you don't hear about it in phones too much is because iOS is such a more sort of

spk_0 controlled environment and it is so much much more aggressive than Apple than the macOS and Apple's other operating system is about

spk_0 Doing stuff behind the scene to like purge things to make room

spk_0 But if you fill a phone all the way and then try to do your normal working it your phone is going to be worse and slower and

spk_0 Probably the OS is going to flip out at some point. So don't fill your phone

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spk_0 Now the show is over

spk_0 They didn't even me to begin

spk_0 Because it was accidental

spk_0 Oh, it was accidental

spk_0 John didn't do any research Margo and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

spk_0 It was accidental

spk_0 And you can find the show notes at ATP dot FM

spk_0 And if you're into mastodon you can follow them

spk_0 at c a s

spk_0 yl

spk_0 ss so that's Casey list ma rco

spk_0 arm

spk_0 anti-Marco armman

spk_0 s-i-r-a-c

spk_0 U.S. H.C. Rukusa

spk_0 It's accidental

spk_0 Accidental

spk_0 They didn't mean to accident

spk_0 Tech podcast so long

spk_0 So I have a usb odyssey that I went down

spk_0 Not just a story not a journey a full on odyssey it has been an odyssey

spk_0 And I have I'll tell you I have figured it out and I still can't figure it out

spk_0 Oh lovely okay, so

spk_0 Uh, about a maybe two weeks ago

spk_0 Oh, maybe a week ago

spk_0 My Microsoft sculpt ergonomic keyboard

spk_0 Started to flake out and slowly you know lose keystrokes or double keystrokes

spk_0 Now I've been using the sculpt ergonomic keyboard for a while

spk_0 This happens this is how they die the the there's two tragedies to the Microsoft sculpt ergonomic keyboard

spk_0 One is that they never updated it and in fact

spk_0 It's gone through this whole now afterlife of like Microsoft sold their whole keyboard business

spk_0 They sold part of it to in case in case is now remaking this particular keyboard among a bunch of others

spk_0 Other people have tried to make clones of this sculpt ergonomic because it has such a strong following including

spk_0 Matthias and Kinesis

spk_0 Both of which I have tried and neither of which I can recommend

spk_0 um

spk_0 And this keyboard the problem is a lot of people love this keyboard

spk_0 myself included

spk_0 and

spk_0 It dies after maybe

spk_0 It depends you know you're it's a role to dice it dies after usually between two and three years of use in my experience

spk_0 And so I have like you know five or six just new in box like ready to go waiting around

spk_0 In reserve

spk_0 So I've seen this problem before I've gone through I've probably I've probably killed

spk_0 Maybe four or five of them over time

spk_0 I mean it's a keyboard for a long time. So anyway

spk_0 This one starts flicking out you know the the keys start doubling and missing

spk_0 I guess this one's at the end just in case I'll change the batteries change the batteries no difference

spk_0 You know it's still doubling. I'm like okay. I guess this is about to die

spk_0 And then one morning I go to my computer and it's it had like the keyboard is totally dead like no no keys work

spk_0 I'm like well

spk_0 That's a new one. All right. I guess I guess this one's done

spk_0 Get the next one out of the box

spk_0 Go to the garage get take one off the top of the stack of boxes. I'm just

spk_0 anyway

spk_0 I go to plug the new one in and

spk_0 It just it also doesn't work. That's weird. Well

spk_0 I guess maybe something else is wrong. Maybe like I'll try a different port on the hub or something

spk_0 I don't know what's because it has to own custom USB receiver. That's important

spk_0 This is not Bluetooth. Yeah, your keyboard connected to a hub of course because I have

spk_0 one

spk_0 Thunderbolt cable going into my laptop so I can take my laptop

spk_0 And bring it to the laptops

spk_0 Yeah, your laptop has more than one port though. Come on. Of course, but it's the one cable dream, John

spk_0 Plus it's a USB-A

spk_0 receiver and I don't want to have this like stupid dongle hang on my laptop all day

spk_0 I know then you got to deal with hubs

spk_0 There's a reason my USB microphone connects directly to the back of my computer

spk_0 Well, anyway

spk_0 For a while for for years now

spk_0 I've had the same setup here at the beach. I have a pro display xdr

spk_0 And a couple of USB devices. I have a USB

spk_0 You know sound headphone amp thing. I have my USB pre audio device

spk_0 I have the keyboard dongle and you know a couple like an extra little drive here and there a few a few things

spk_0 And a Thunderbolt ethernet adapter hanging off of a hub

spk_0 So I have all those things in both places and they they've worked great for years many many years

spk_0 But when this dongle died

spk_0 For the when this when this sculpt keyboard died

spk_0 The new one didn't work in the same place first time ever and then so I'm like all right

spk_0 Well, I keep I keep one of the apple

spk_0 The narrower of the two apple keyboard styles without the big numpad on the side

spk_0 I keep one of those around for touch ID usually it's stuck to the bottom of the desk

spk_0 So my guy I'll just switch to that temporarily until I figure this out

spk_0 I switched to that and that works fine and I go through and I realize oh also

spk_0 Why can't I play music?

spk_0 My sound doesn't working

spk_0 My sound devices also plugged in neither neither my headphone amp

spk_0 Nor the USB pre microphone interface both of which are USB sound devices both of which plugs into the same hub

spk_0 They're not working either

spk_0 What I eventually conclude is that

spk_0 USB 2.0 devices

spk_0 Which sound devices that they all are I think but certainly both of mine are

spk_0 USB 2 devices are not working when plugged into the ports on my Thunderbolt hub

spk_0 But the USB 3

spk_0 external SSD is working

spk_0 That's been the I mean you you hope the SSD is working or maybe slowly corrupting all this data well right

spk_0 I guess yeah

spk_0 So I'm trying to figure out why do those work and then I'm like wait a minute

spk_0 I want to plug in like

spk_0 I was moved to a different ports

spk_0 If I would connect it

spk_0 through

spk_0 The ports on the pro display XDR

spk_0 It worked

spk_0 But if it's if a USB 2 device was connected through any other way through the Thunderbolt hub

spk_0 It wouldn't work it wouldn't be recognized by the computer at all. What is your Thunderbolt hub?

spk_0 Yeah, I was about to ask the same thing

spk_0 So I was using this OWC one I forget the name of it

spk_0 These hubs all have similar names and they change like every two years

spk_0 But it's one of the OWC ones the one that has a built-in power supply and it has like you know ethernet and everything

spk_0 So I was using that so I'm like all right

spk_0 Well I have like I have a couple of cow digits around from previous buys

spk_0 I'll just swap one of those in maybe maybe the ports on my hub went bad when somehow maybe this keyboard

spk_0 Dangle killed the USB ports on my hub. I don't know how but you know these keyboard dongles are crap like

spk_0 The sculpt keyboard works great feels great amazingly comfortable

spk_0 But electronically it's a piece of garbage. This is why they keep dying

spk_0 And so my god

spk_0 Maybe somehow the my sculpt keyboard killed the USB 2.0 bus because USB 2

spk_0 uses different pins we talked about this recently USB 2 uses entirely different pins on the connector

spk_0 Then USB 3 so theoretically it is possible for USB for a hub to basically for USB 2 not to work

spk_0 But USB 3 to work but I figured like

spk_0 But like they're you know they get power and everything and I'm like well it and it should be like you know

spk_0 Multiplexed over thunderbolt to the computer that shouldn't like that shouldn't matter anyway. So I'm like let me try a different hub

spk_0 Try a different a different thunderbolt hub the one of the cow digit the thunderbolt element for

spk_0 No difference same problem and I like that's really weird and I take out I'm like oh

spk_0 Maybe it's maybe my laptop somehow maybe it's a software thing who knows so I take out the other laptop and

spk_0 I connect the the the element hub to that and

spk_0 I got it to work once

spk_0 Like well, that's weird and so I you know I moved some stuff around like you know rewired and plug it into my other laptop in it

spk_0 But that doesn't work. I'm like what what is going on?

spk_0 so

spk_0 Here's what worked

spk_0 USB 2 devices would not work in any configuration

spk_0 Except when connected directly to the MacBook Pro

spk_0 Or when connected via a USB-C hub that was not thunderbolt

spk_0 Or

spk_0 Connected to the prototype XDRs built-in ports whether or not there was a thunderbolt hub between the XDR and the laptop

spk_0 Here's a bunch of things that didn't work

spk_0 Two identical cow digit thunderbolt element for hubs two different models of OWC thunderbolt hub

spk_0 If I connected the USB 2 devices via USB-C or USB-A through dongles and ports didn't make a difference

spk_0 Whether I connected the USB 2 devices through a USB-2 hub connected to one of the thunderbolt hubs upstream ports no difference

spk_0 Whether the thunderbolt cable was connected to different ports on the MacBook Pro no difference

spk_0 And a completely different MacBook Pro mostly no difference

spk_0 But if I connected thunderbolt devices to the thunderbolt hub like the thunderbolt Ethernet adapter I have

spk_0 That worked just fine and the USB 3 devices were fine. So it's only

spk_0 USB 2 devices even if I connected that as the USB 3 SSD if I use a USB 2 only cable to force it to work over USB 2 didn't work

spk_0 But you're not describing the the whole world of devices here, but I'm assuming you were going one device at a time

spk_0 Or were you trying all these configurations with all your devices?

spk_0 I was trying everything I could try like I was

spk_0 I mean, I'm sure I didn't do it perfectly scientifically, but like

spk_0 I was I spent like three hours trying to figure this out

spk_0 Because I would have gone down all the way just to the keyboard keyboard directly connected keyboard

spk_0 The keyboard being the only device on the thing because I

spk_0 You know you mentioned like you're a device killing the hub and I feel like hubs will die all on their own

spk_0 I always suspect the hub is being bad

spk_0 But you've eliminated that by trying like four different hubs, right?

spk_0 So it's probably not all four your hubs are bad

spk_0 So then my next suspicion is

spk_0 Some USB 2 connected devices like to spring garbage data because it's flipping out

spk_0 Oh, yeah, that's what I thought too and any device connected to USB 2 is now failing because the entire USB 2 environment is just inside the inside

spk_0 Any of the hubs is totally destroyed by that one device is just spewing garbage

spk_0 So then I would have said okay does just the keyboard work

spk_0 You know and all the configurations nothing but the keyboard just the keyboard right?

spk_0 I see you know, you know, they mean then I had a sense of I did that

spk_0 Yeah, so I did that because I had the same thought I'm like maybe one of these is like you know

spk_0 Broken and like and like polluting the whole USB 2.0 bus somehow

spk_0 But in like all all the same thing which like if I connected them directly to the MacBook Pros ports

spk_0 They would work, but they would not work through any Thunderbolt hub

spk_0 And only USB 2 devices and like that

spk_0 That but except if they were plugged into the XDRs hub

spk_0 For some reason the XDR and I would imagine what the XDR situation would be that the XDR is like you know

spk_0 Again, like tunneling it over the Thunderbolt the one Thunderbolt cable that connects it back to your Mac, right?

spk_0 But even so yes, you're right

spk_0 But so I have I have a

spk_0 USB 3 hub that has like a couple little ports on it. So I tried all right maybe

spk_0 What if I what if I connect USB 3 hub to a Thunderbolt hub and then connect a USB 2 device into the USB 3 hub so that it was like

spk_0 Maybe it's translating the USB 2 back and it maybe able it will upstream to the to the hub over 3 and

spk_0 I was trying all that no matter what if USB 2 devices were in we're in that Thunderbolt hub

spk_0 They would not be recognized by the computer at all

spk_0 And I was like am I going crazy like and I would try different things

spk_0 I'm like didn't it work that one time on the other laptop and then I couldn't get to work again

spk_0 When I try to again like

spk_0 What happened what is this these laptops running my main one is running the the non 26 one and these my travel one is running 26

spk_0 And so I'm like what what is this now

spk_0 That's all the information I had

spk_0 What are your guesses all because I I did eventually figure out something about it

spk_0 But what are your guesses at this point?

spk_0 Uh power supply

spk_0 Casey

spk_0 No, I don't think it's a power supply

spk_0 I don't know what it is, but I don't think it's a power supply

spk_0 Um I mean I feel like there's something about I mean obviously there's something about the fact that it's used to be too

spk_0 And I'm thinking about how on the TS5

spk_0 Which I know you're not using but on the thunder on the cal digi TS5

spk_0 Plus particularly, which is what I'm now using

spk_0 There's a different like usb controller for different pieces of the hub

spk_0 And I think it's running two different usb controllers and I feel I the vague notion that it's something in that direction

spk_0 But I got freaking nothing other than that. I mean that really I said power supply because it's something you haven't mentioned yet

spk_0 But really liked I if I was

spk_0 Naring a sandwich I have done with like my mouse and stuff

spk_0 Oh, I would always strip it down to zero devices then one device like

spk_0 I would want to know which one of the things is causing the problem rather than it sounded like you were very often

spk_0 Hooking up all your devices through various things and we like no get everything off of this

spk_0 It's just a computer. It's just a keyboard. It's just a single cable and then build up from there until it breaks

spk_0 And then then you'd figure out what the what the thing that's causing the problem is but right and I was doing that

spk_0 But what would happen is like as soon as I would play anything any usb2 device

spk_0 That would have to be routed through a thunderbolt hub. It would not work anymore unless that hub was the xdr's hub

spk_0 Even if it was just one device yes

spk_0 Even if I ran the xdr

spk_0 Through a different thunderbolt hub and then into the laptop so daisy chain that worked too like if the xdr was hosting the usb2 device on one of its ports

spk_0 This all worked just fine. Which single usb device did you use to determine this to use apples keyboard use the in case keyboard

spk_0 I was using usually I was using one of the sound devices

spk_0 Anyway, I always say power supply because the in these devices especially hubs

spk_0 But even like external hard drives and stuff the weakest part of it is the thing that converts

spk_0 Alternating current to direct current those things if they get wonky and start providing too low voltage briefly and do or just

spk_0 Get bad. It's not the fault of the hub technically

spk_0 But it's just not getting enough power and so things can be disconnecting or freaking out or whatever

spk_0 But as you've tried so many hubs that's probably not it well at one point

spk_0 I like unwired the whole setup and like read like put again pull everything from scratch right and I like move something around

spk_0 Oh, we're using the same wires when you were swapping in the hubs one of them was the same

spk_0 You don't even have cats

spk_0 The the thunderbolt cable that ran between the laptop and the hub

spk_0 Which is apple it's the one that comes with the xdr the it's like you know the the braided

spk_0 Two meter long because that's like it's kind of a long run it like runs along the whole side of the desk

spk_0 So and it's the only cable I had that was that later standing desk that moves well that part is fixed that part doesn't go up and down

spk_0 But anyway, so that's the only thunderbolt cable I had that's longer than like a foot and a half so it's the only one that can make the run

spk_0 so

spk_0 I was using that one cable for all these tests except the one time I plugged in the laptop and it worked for a second

spk_0 I couldn't I couldn't reproduce say your your experiment design is a little shot of here

spk_0 This cable again, it's like the apple pro xdr cable it works for everything else

spk_0 Except suddenly when the sculpt keyboard died

spk_0 It then stopped working for usb 2 devices being sent over thunderbolt that are not plugged into the xdr

spk_0 Now I

spk_0 I have no idea why and I even I have a cable tester

spk_0 I have what I was about to say because the down you work them to me the

spk_0 Yeah, the blq cable Q yeah, because as you're talking just now

spk_0 I wish I had come up with this while ago, but just now thinking to myself wait a second

spk_0 I'm pretty sure usb 2 rolls on different pins it's on a thunderbolt cable so that's it

spk_0 Maybe the only thing that's using those wires, but yeah, but see here

spk_0 But here's a thing like I mean maybe I'm missing something about how this works

spk_0 When you plug in something into a thunderbolt hub the thunderbolt hub is like a it's like a big PCI device right and like

spk_0 Isn't the thunderbolt it isn't the usb controller on that hub

spk_0 translating the usb pin so the devices into PCI I think it's more of a tunneling thing where it reserves lanes for playing old usb 2 somewhere in there

spk_0 I don't know I don't know the technical details like I don't I don't think that

spk_0 You're sending the usb 2 data pins over the thunderbolt cable once like coming from a hub

spk_0 Well anyway, I was saying that if if you have to determine that you have a bad cable

spk_0 No amount of tunneling is gonna save you probably unless it actually entirely avoids those conductors, but

spk_0 Hope so here's the thing

spk_0 So I tested with my cable Q this great little cable tester. I tested

spk_0 The cable that seemed to be the problem

spk_0 And sure enough it says like it does cable health 0% like whatever that means

spk_0 Charging power zero and it says like is that good?

spk_0 I don't think so then under the specs like it only lists

spk_0 US before and alternate mode

spk_0 It does not list any of the backwards compatible USB modes. I'm like okay, but it's a thunderbolt cable like and this is you know

spk_0 This is because of the age of the xdr. This is like a thunderbolt

spk_0 Three cable I believe

spk_0 This so this is before usb and thunderbolt were united so you could have like usb for they're all united

spk_0 USB4 cable should also do thunderbolt

spk_0 Four and three and you know over it, but thunderbolt three cable might not have the pins to also do usb

spk_0 so

spk_0 This tester was that was verifying okay, it has thunderbolt basically, but not old usb modes but like but again

spk_0 That's been fine for years it has worked for years

spk_0 It was only when that

spk_0 keyboard died that it stopped working

spk_0 So I'm like maybe it fried something so anyway then I test one of the cow digit cables like one of the true

spk_0 USB4 thunderbolt 4 cable and of course every light on the tester lights up

spk_0 It passes every possible test and I use that and it works. I'm like

spk_0 What changed but I'm like well? I go online and I'm like well

spk_0 Amazon can deliver me tomorrow morning a brand new one of these cables. I'm like

spk_0 Okay, I still need a long thunderbolt cable so I don't like run cables in a weird way across my desk

spk_0 I still need a long cable. I still need to buy a new one

spk_0 So all right, let me get the same apple cable again like now it's officially

spk_0 I think it's like labeled us before or whatever but like let me get the same cable again

spk_0 So I got the replacement cable the next morning

spk_0 Sure enough replacing the cable and the exact same run works perfectly

spk_0 So I'm like, oh cool. Let me get at my cable tester and see what's different. Is it an active cable?

spk_0 Uh, no, I don't think so it's hard to tell these days because the chips are really small

spk_0 But actually cable needed has tiny micro chips in the ends of the connectors to help with the transfer very long cables

spk_0 Usually, well, I think all thunderbolt cables have that all not sure all but anyway, but there

spk_0 Thunderbolt cable says I believe thunderbolt cables can also I think have like

spk_0 Like optics and like fiber optics for certain lengths. I don't know anyway

spk_0 Yeah, but even the electronic ones there they have tiny chips in there and the chips are very small

spk_0 So it's hard to tell whether they're in there and obviously those chips go wrong

spk_0 Your cables gonna have problems. Yeah, but so I got the replacement cable

spk_0 The tester tests it exactly the same

spk_0 It what so I cannot figure out what has changed about the bad cable

spk_0 It whatever it is this tester does not distinguish it from the new cable. Yeah, I would imagine that tester

spk_0 Absolutely can't handle active cables, but who knows I don't know but like it's well it handles all the other one anyway

spk_0 So all this is to say I

spk_0 I still have no idea what happened

spk_0 I still have no idea what about the cable went bad such that USB 2 devices

spk_0 Would only work if plugged in through a protisplay xdr's hub and no other hubs

spk_0 I this this was the hardest to figure out problem. I have ever had on my home computer and I

spk_0 I still don't know the answer. I've at least just worked around it by just replacing this cable

spk_0 But like this is the most bizarre thing ever and so anyway

spk_0 um that that's where that's where we are now. I still

spk_0 I I'm still using that Apple keyboard. I did not go back to the sculpt. I'm gonna

spk_0 I'm kind of testing to see you should go back to the the keyboard that you thought went bad and try that first. Oh, I heard it through the way

spk_0 Oh, it was fine. It could have been just the cable that was bad

spk_0 My theory is like like because it was like dying in like with the with like the key misses and stuff because it was dying in the way those always die

spk_0 I think it was just dying. I've like I've I've said I've killed like five of these over the years

spk_0 Like I've seen exactly this pattern happen

spk_0 So it's very likely the keyboard was dying and it was about time for this one

spk_0 Um, but I think I think when it died I think it is something really weird to the stuff it was going to do

spk_0 I think something got fried or something along the way

spk_0 God knows what happened

spk_0 But things got very messed up and it all came down to this one cable like the upstream cable between Thunderbolt and the laptop and I have no idea why

spk_0 Well, yeah, I'm not even knowing whether the cable is an active cable doesn't let you know whether you could potentially blame the tiny

spk_0 microchips that are in the ends of the connector if they exist or not

spk_0 Well, again, I think on Thunderbolt cables

spk_0 I believe there are always microchips in the end

spk_0 It's just a question of maybe like what kind but there's always chips

spk_0 But if those start to do weird things like that's a type of thing you're not going to be able to debug from the outside very easily

spk_0 Because how can you tell whether the chip is working right and you'd have probably have to know more about the protocols and stuff and to understand how the

spk_0 The chain of stuff is configuring itself in yada yada but in the end it doesn't really matter

spk_0 Why it's going wrong you want to get it down to the problem?

spk_0 I think you would narrow it down eventually to that cable because replacing it although buying the exact same cable again

spk_0 I would have maybe bought a different one but you know I worked for years with that cable so I suppose yeah

spk_0 And you know it's also you know it's it's still it worked for all these years and

spk_0 I think the Apple cable it was the only cable I could find that was anywhere near this length like it's I think it's like one point

spk_0 Eight meters or something like it's not it most of them are like

spk_0 either two meters or

spk_0 You know like point six or something like it's it's a weird length and it happens to fit like the one that I have

spk_0 For it if it's so perfectly so like I don't want to get anything else but

spk_0 Anyway, and it looks nice. You know this is like it's one of the only cables. It's visible behind my monitor

spk_0 If I want to look nice

spk_0 So it's anyway

spk_0 It's finally it's finally done

spk_0 Well next time yeah next time come up with a more regimented

spk_0 Experiment design that it will get you to this answer sooner and strip it down to nothing and then slowly add things back and change all variables

spk_0 Different you did a different laptop you did different keyboard. You didn't think to do different cable to them at the end

spk_0 I was expecting this to be some sort of interference related thing like you and I were fighting with my ex-alarm cable the other day

spk_0 But no turns out it's just I mean or could have been like the the cable gets caught in one of the

spk_0 Pinges of your standing desk can get shredded or our cat choose through it or there's all sorts of cable-related things that can go wrong

spk_0 Nope, all sorts of cats and that and so what when I wire a standing desk

spk_0 I put all the wires that are important and that are actually useful like I put all the wiring that I can

spk_0 Somehow attached in on or under the desk so so that the wires all move with the desk the only wires that go downward from the

spk_0 Desk to the floor our power network. That's it

spk_0 And everything like I had like there's a whole search strip like mounted in the desk or under the desk like whenever I do a desk

spk_0 That's what I do so that way the entire setup moves up and down and you only need a little bit of slack in the power cable in the network cable

spk_0 Yeah, that's the plan, but you know cable gets loose

spk_0 Flops down gets caught between two pieces when the thing is going up and down, you know it happens

659: Lose the Ear Lottery

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