279. Strava v. Garmin Lawsuit, Uphill Treadmill Threshold, New Study on Low Carb v. High Carb (and Caffeine), and Max Heart Rate Problems!

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Woo! Welcome to the Summer Call Play Podcast. We are so happy to be with you today.

spk_0 Happy Tuesday. It's Tuesday.

spk_0 And I'm bringing my hungry girl vibes on this Tuesday.

spk_0 Your hungry girl vibes. Does this have any double meaning? Where are we at?

spk_0 No double meaning. It's a very simple meaning. I'm hungry.

spk_0 You're hungry.

spk_0 It comes in the fact that it is actually Monday when we record this.

spk_0 And rest day Monday sometimes I get so freaking hungry. And that's where we are now.

spk_0 Well, it probably lines with the studies we've talked about that once you've had hard

spk_0 training or a hard race. Your metabolic rate is super elevated.

spk_0 But what it reminded me of is the frozen aisle at the grocery store.

spk_0 Have you seen these hungry man?

spk_0 Oh, yeah. Frozen meals.

spk_0 Yeah. We need to re-frame that hunger girl.

spk_0 Hunger girl.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 Sell better.

spk_0 In fact, my parents were at their house, their little cabin, if you're on your background

spk_0 noise.

spk_0 And they have like those poppable popcorn things. And it was skinny girl popcorn.

spk_0 And I'm like, fuck this.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I don't like what this is doing. This is the patriarchy. This is body shaming.

spk_0 I don't like it at all.

spk_0 We need hungry girl popcorn, which is just popcorn covered in cheese.

spk_0 No, we need a hunger girl steak mashed potatoes.

spk_0 Like those big frozen aisle sections we made that.

spk_0 Actually, reminds me we were shopping in the grocery store the other day.

spk_0 And you gave me so much shit for buying cottage cheese.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Do you remember that? And then I eat the whole thing out of spite.

spk_0 Bullshit. You didn't eat the whole thing.

spk_0 I almost ate the whole thing.

spk_0 No, you literally asked me this morning.

spk_0 Do you think it's still okay?

spk_0 And I was like, no. So it must have been some left.

spk_0 It's in the fridge. There was like the smallest bit left.

spk_0 But it was calling my slow. I was like, I'm hungry.

spk_0 Cottage cheese, Megan. I don't know.

spk_0 You must have been so hungry at the grocery store.

spk_0 That is such a waste of our time.

spk_0 So I mean, it's delicious.

spk_0 Actually, something about it, which is weird.

spk_0 I admit that is weird was calling to me.

spk_0 And you know, it's got 14 grams of protein.

spk_0 Yeah. I mean, cottage cheese is probably a little better

spk_0 than the frozen chicken nuggets that I go for.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So maybe I should have left it more.

spk_0 But in the future, maybe we should not get the cottage cheese

spk_0 because we're going to end up wasting most of it.

spk_0 No, no, no. I'm going to eat it out of spite every single time.

spk_0 And it's going to be delicious.

spk_0 But it actually like genuinely is good.

spk_0 Maybe we should go back for a date night though.

spk_0 Should the grocery store?

spk_0 Well, we also, we actually spend a lot of date nights

spk_0 at the grocery store.

spk_0 It's a great place.

spk_0 It is a great place.

spk_0 But no, on Saturday night, we had a date night.

spk_0 And you ordered an entire rotisserie chicken.

spk_0 Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

spk_0 This is hungry boy time.

spk_0 Right now.

spk_0 Actually, hungry man.

spk_0 There's this place in Netterland that we want

spk_0 to recommend called Brickhouse Alpine Kitchen,

spk_0 which is just this low-key vibe.

spk_0 It kind of is like an upscale Chick-fil-A,

spk_0 but not really upscale.

spk_0 It's just chill.

spk_0 Actually, I said that owner described it.

spk_0 So yeah.

spk_0 Oh, yeah, perfect.

spk_0 And sometimes when we talk about restaurants in Boulder

spk_0 on this podcast, they do bonkers numbers.

spk_0 And we want to support this place

spk_0 because the main objective they'd have

spk_0 is to make sure you're never hungry again.

spk_0 I went and I ate like so much.

spk_0 And it was incredibly satisfying.

spk_0 We sat at the bar.

spk_0 So I'm not hungry.

spk_0 It was a vibe sitting at the bar.

spk_0 It was raining and cold outside.

spk_0 College football was on.

spk_0 And you had an entire rotisserie chicken.

spk_0 And I had a lot of chicken tenders.

spk_0 And I don't know if this place is well known for portion size.

spk_0 I think it was just your ordering vibes.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 I mean, it was $20.

spk_0 I'll take all of this chicken you have.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 We have the best episode for you.

spk_0 Quick room, Matt here.

spk_0 We're going to talk about uphill treadmill

spk_0 threshold workouts via Megan.

spk_0 Maybe we'll talk about Taylor Swift Week on a date.

spk_0 Yes, we are.

spk_0 I should have a lot of thoughts.

spk_0 You've been telling me thoughts all weekend.

spk_0 I have so many Taylor Swift thoughts right now.

spk_0 You've been going down the Taylor Swift Reddit Hall.

spk_0 Like, what are you doing on Reddit?

spk_0 No, no, not Reddit Hall, Megan.

spk_0 Twitter Hall.

spk_0 I think why it's Killian's era.

spk_0 He just finished his state's

spk_0 evaluation product project.

spk_0 Then a new study on low carb and high carb plus caffeine.

spk_0 I'm a great research group.

spk_0 Strava making us look really, really dumb

spk_0 after we supported them last week.

spk_0 We gave them a lot of compliments last week.

spk_0 And then literally within 24 hours,

spk_0 they followed it up with some bonkers.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It makes me remember that sometimes being nice

spk_0 is not the way to go about it when you're dealing with corporations.

spk_0 Then a trail shoe study looking at different phones

spk_0 and how they affect performance.

spk_0 AI and training questions, a study there.

spk_0 And then a Q&A on eating habits,

spk_0 carbs and team sports,

spk_0 bike safety, shoes, adventures, and lots more.

spk_0 I'm excited for the science on this episode.

spk_0 I feel like we got some good studies

spk_0 and it was fun to dive into this morning.

spk_0 Yeah, and AI study.

spk_0 Always fun to talk about new updates in AI

spk_0 because it's coming for us all.

spk_0 I saw you slip that one in there.

spk_0 Oh, yes.

spk_0 Last week was a big week in AI.

spk_0 So it's my excuse to talk about other things

spk_0 because this one is tangentially related to training.

spk_0 So first thing is why you're such a hungry girl.

spk_0 You've been training great coming off the 50-mile.

spk_0 And I thought it was interesting

spk_0 how we've pivoted your training going.

spk_0 Both into the 50-mile and then out of it.

spk_0 Which is maybe a way from some of the traditional speed work

spk_0 we've done in the past.

spk_0 Because we want to build up your volume

spk_0 and build your base after so long.

spk_0 And a lot more to uphill treadmill threshold.

spk_0 Which we've talked about before.

spk_0 But you are putting into practice in a major way.

spk_0 And they are fun.

spk_0 They are some big sessions.

spk_0 You see them on paper and I'm like,

spk_0 that is a big girl workout right there.

spk_0 And it's been nice because it actually requires accountability

spk_0 for me as an athlete too.

spk_0 Because when you have these big aerobic

spk_0 like threshold workout days,

spk_0 you really can't push too far beyond that.

spk_0 Otherwise, you're just going to get royally fucked.

spk_0 And it's been a great way to just cue into my heart rate,

spk_0 cue into those signals.

spk_0 And just make sure that I'm also pushing my body too hard.

spk_0 I think it's one of those elements of training theory

spk_0 that is just so instrumental

spk_0 to apply what often works for like 25-year-old Norwegian boys.

spk_0 And make it work for everybody else.

spk_0 Because those guys are selected because they're freaks,

spk_0 partially at baseline.

spk_0 Their VO2 max is really high.

spk_0 But then also they can absorb so much workload.

spk_0 That's not most of us, right?

spk_0 Like even for me, if I went out and did 10 by mile at threshold

spk_0 outside, I would be wrecked for so long.

spk_0 You know, I'd be 37 going on 62.

spk_0 But you do uphill treadmill threshold,

spk_0 offload a little bit of that impact,

spk_0 and have a lot more controlled session.

spk_0 I feel like those types of like hard,

spk_0 but also manageable workloads can be so much more sustainable.

spk_0 It's also nice too, because I do the warm-ups at 15%.

spk_0 And by the time you dial it down to 8%,

spk_0 you're like, I'm running downhill.

spk_0 This feels so much...

spk_0 That's something I developed.

spk_0 That's the David special.

spk_0 As you start at 15%, and then when you go down, it's chill as hell.

spk_0 And original listeners might think about the fact

spk_0 that I gave you shit on that, actually for a while,

spk_0 because I always, like, sometimes when you start at 15%,

spk_0 and work down to 8%,

spk_0 the neuromuscular stimulus of like running a little faster at 8%.

spk_0 Also sometimes feels like you're running really fast.

spk_0 But it also feels like you're running downhill.

spk_0 And I think I've bought into the latter part of that more.

spk_0 I think the big news here is that you've just been so influenced

spk_0 by everything I do.

spk_0 I have been influenced by you.

spk_0 I mean, you got the results, man.

spk_0 You're proven a point.

spk_0 That's good for myself, Steve.

spk_0 You're so skeptical, and then you see me do all this shit

spk_0 in the real world, and you're like, I'm going to do it too.

spk_0 Well, maybe the other rationale is that you do so much shit.

spk_0 And I maybe adopt 10% of it.

spk_0 That's true.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things

spk_0 that I am not adopting that you're doing.

spk_0 Yeah, I do a lot of experiments that don't work.

spk_0 And I stick by many of them that don't work until, like,

spk_0 I get banged over the head with them, like heat suit.

spk_0 But one that we do recommend everyone out there,

spk_0 consider is this upheld treadmill threshold approach.

spk_0 I've written about it on Patreon in detail, and I'll link to that.

spk_0 But seeing you go about this,

spk_0 you're doing workouts like 8 by 5 minutes.

spk_0 And generally right now, we're at 40 minutes of workload

spk_0 with a little under half recovery.

spk_0 Over time, it's going to go to 60 minutes of workload

spk_0 every single week in a single session.

spk_0 Oh, I'm excited.

spk_0 Bring that on.

spk_0 Yeah, I know you want that.

spk_0 You want two hours, all right?

spk_0 But at that point, the body would probably just start failing.

spk_0 Like, you reach a point of diminishing returns.

spk_0 But it's just such a fantastic way to keep building the base

spk_0 while building the mechanical strength

spk_0 without so much of the biomechanical risk.

spk_0 So seeing you doing, you're also just a tough bitch.

spk_0 You, most importantly, last week,

spk_0 listened to Taylor Swift two times her new album

spk_0 while you were doing it,

spk_0 which I thought was like a really unique way to go about it.

spk_0 Okay, I was doing a regular uphill triumphant.

spk_0 Oh, that wasn't your workout.

spk_0 I know.

spk_0 Yeah, it came out on Friday.

spk_0 My workout was Wednesday.

spk_0 Very sad timing, because I was doing the run on the treadmill.

spk_0 And I was like, I could do anything to my body right now.

spk_0 Like, give me like 12 by 5 minutes, give me 15 by 5 minutes.

spk_0 And it was just a vibe.

spk_0 Like, I think since the new heights podcast,

spk_0 we've both, I was kind of like towing the line

spk_0 of becoming a Swiftie and that fully pulled me in.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Do you feel the same way?

spk_0 Well, I'm a little conflicted, right?

spk_0 Because at Leadville, I wore the orange shorts as a tribute to Taylor Swift's appearance on that podcast.

spk_0 Not knowing that much about her in great detail.

spk_0 Also, spot on.

spk_0 There was a lot of YouTube comments about the orange shorts

spk_0 and a lot of them centered around wood.

spk_0 Which was on Taylor Swift's album.

spk_0 The song went on Taylor Swift's album is the greatest thing I've ever heard.

spk_0 I do love it.

spk_0 But the reason that I gravitated so much towards her after that podcast

spk_0 was a little part where she talked about

spk_0 how to compartmentalize the commentary about yourself.

spk_0 They just exist on the internet.

spk_0 And she seemed like she had found a way to be so far above it.

spk_0 And then I listened to this album and so much of it

spk_0 is about commentary about her on the internet.

spk_0 And I'm like, was I just duped?

spk_0 So I'm a little worried about that.

spk_0 Was I just duped?

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 See, I feel like she's a strong confident woman.

spk_0 I fully trust her.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And she made a diss track.

spk_0 Oh, yeah, there's a diss track about Charlie X-EX,

spk_0 which is an amazing bot.

spk_0 I love it.

spk_0 It's called Actually Romantic.

spk_0 Go listen to it.

spk_0 But yeah, I feel like if you're writing

spk_0 diss tracks, you're not kind of just above it all.

spk_0 And not responding to haters.

spk_0 But I feel like in some sense,

spk_0 for her that feels like a response from me

spk_0 of her actually being above it all,

spk_0 she's taking some of this Travis Kelsey swag

spk_0 and just bringing it into her music.

spk_0 That's how I know you're a Swiftie

spk_0 is that you've fully just gone.

spk_0 I'm like, right or die.

spk_0 Literally, you're going to rationalize every single thing she's done.

spk_0 But to be serious, some of my take on this

spk_0 is not about her so much because, yeah, the songs,

spk_0 they're okay, but they're not like my jam.

spk_0 Like I'm not going to be listening to them

spk_0 for the rest of my life.

spk_0 Okay, well, I did the treadmill.

spk_0 I was on a upheld treadmill.

spk_0 And I kind of thought that like the first time I listened.

spk_0 And then the second time I listened,

spk_0 I had lyrics up on the screen.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And I was like, this is extremely my jam.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And there was a song all about Travis Kelsey's penis,

spk_0 which was interesting.

spk_0 And in that song, actually, it's about a spread of a tree.

spk_0 Yeah, it's true.

spk_0 And in it, she says, I don't need to catch a bouquet

spk_0 to know that a hard rock is on the way,

spk_0 which is she getting into the hard rock 100

spk_0 via around the lottery?

spk_0 Actually, she's not because she's a woman.

spk_0 It's very hard to get into hard rock 100.

spk_0 I also thought what she would, you know what?

spk_0 She would punch back against that.

spk_0 True.

spk_0 But what's another good euphemism for that?

spk_0 Going to leadville.

spk_0 Uh-huh.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Actually, Full Discoge, when I heard that,

spk_0 I thought she said hard rock.

spk_0 At first, and I was like, she's, she collects her heart rocks.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Well, I kind of forgot about the point I was going to make.

spk_0 But generally,

spk_0 something about haters.

spk_0 Just the commentary on the album is so crazy.

spk_0 Well, where are you reading this, first of all?

spk_0 Anywhere on the internet.

spk_0 Anywhere you read about this.

spk_0 It's the same.

spk_0 Where, I mean, you're reading that it's somewhere.

spk_0 Is it Twitter?

spk_0 Is it literally Twitter, Instagram, any social media app, any,

spk_0 like, or a band-e-fair, anything.

spk_0 It's all kind of this unhinged commentary

spk_0 on someone just making songs.

spk_0 And maybe she plays into it.

spk_0 I'm sure she does.

spk_0 They via how all of this is released.

spk_0 She's probably, you know, she's a business woman.

spk_0 And she's like any commentary, any marketing is good marketing.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And she's like, this album's going to stir some shit.

spk_0 Well, let's start you short.

spk_0 I got to invested in pop culture by wearing the orange shorts.

spk_0 And I am taking a step back because-

spk_0 You're taking a step back.

spk_0 You should take a step forward.

spk_0 No, I don't.

spk_0 It's too much.

spk_0 There's too much lore.

spk_0 There's too much going on.

spk_0 People are too intense.

spk_0 Well, that's why you're going to stop reading it.

spk_0 Okay, then just listen to the music.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Turn off the internet.

spk_0 And this is like, this actually gets back to my point.

spk_0 Is like, I've had just the internet is a wild place.

spk_0 And I can't read commentary about other people.

spk_0 Like, obviously I've turned off commentary about myself.

spk_0 I'm like, I'm not going to engage in comments.

spk_0 But reading things about other people that's negative

spk_0 does the same thing to me.

spk_0 So I'm just like, I'm going to enjoy this album.

spk_0 I'm going to enjoy the lyrics.

spk_0 I'm going to enjoy the distracts and roll with it.

spk_0 Well, it'll be interesting if Charlie X,

spk_0 the X, right to distract back.

spk_0 I think she will.

spk_0 And this becomes the Kendrick Drake battle for the-

spk_0 This year.

spk_0 Which is so good for women.

spk_0 These are hungry women.

spk_0 I have lived it.

spk_0 Like, you know, when do we ever have like women's

spk_0 distracts and-

spk_0 Okay, you're so hungry today.

spk_0 I'm so hungry.

spk_0 You're so feisty.

spk_0 Yeah, you're coming at me.

spk_0 It's a lot of cheese.

spk_0 I'm getting crushed in this podcast.

spk_0 I don't even think I did anything wrong.

spk_0 I'm not getting crushed.

spk_0 I'm losing.

spk_0 It's not even a competition that I'm losing somehow.

spk_0 Okay, so someone that there is no negative commentary on

spk_0 is Killian Jornet, who did his state's

spk_0 elevation project just finished it up.

spk_0 I don't have that much to say other than he did the 72-14ers

spk_0 in the continuous US,

spk_0 it connected them all via bike or by foot.

spk_0 And what he just did is the most incomprehensible human

spk_0 achievement I've ever seen.

spk_0 And he just kind of went and did it.

spk_0 On so many different levels, like one,

spk_0 the aerobic fitness component of it,

spk_0 want to like the sleep in ability to stack 30 days of that back-to-back.

spk_0 But also three like the mountaineering skills.

spk_0 Renere is, that's a really technical glacier-based mountain.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And there's some announced here in Colorado.

spk_0 It's like snowing in the footage of him doing maroon peak

spk_0 in some of the more technical peaks.

spk_0 That's just like his mountaineering skills are great.

spk_0 Literally, I would shit myself on 18 of those mountains in Colorado.

spk_0 Oh yeah.

spk_0 And it would be so bad.

spk_0 For him to connect it all with such little sleep,

spk_0 it points out what couldn't he do.

spk_0 I'd love to see him in one of these backyard ultra events.

spk_0 We talked about this on Patreon.

spk_0 I think he would never stop or never have to stop.

spk_0 He could go for years, basically.

spk_0 And it's just remarkable to be living in the time of this athlete

spk_0 that goes and lays down maybe the best endurance achievement

spk_0 in human history and just kind of does it for its own sake.

spk_0 Yeah, there's nothing behind it.

spk_0 I really think.

spk_0 The way that he did it was just,

spk_0 it felt very authentic to like the environment and the nature

spk_0 of the peaks and just like also doing it with people too.

spk_0 Like I feel like what's also really impressive too.

spk_0 Maybe this is coming from an introvert.

spk_0 As he was just hanging out with people straight for like 30 days

spk_0 and points of exhaustion.

spk_0 Like that's a lot of people.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 What I liked is that he decided all this at Western states

spk_0 where he's like, I was out there and I saw the beautiful mountains.

spk_0 It's like, I'm going to do something to bring awareness

spk_0 to like conservation or whatever.

spk_0 Meanwhile, Western states, I'm like,

spk_0 I'm going to bring awareness to burn in all this down.

spk_0 Fuck every mountain out here.

spk_0 It's like never again.

spk_0 The former public interest environmental lawyer.

spk_0 But yeah, I just wanted to give shout out to Kylian.

spk_0 I mean, we're living in the time of the true goat.

spk_0 Like there's no one like him.

spk_0 And I don't think there ever will be again.

spk_0 I think it just requires such a unique confluence of best genetics ever,

spk_0 best mindset ever, best science focus ever.

spk_0 And then coming up in an era before trail running

spk_0 became such a professionalized thing.

spk_0 So it didn't really become him indoctrinated into the system

spk_0 that he could be outside of it even

spk_0 while he was the one driving it.

spk_0 And so it's created this perfect storm of like just the goat, you know.

spk_0 And he did this in the Alps too.

spk_0 Like this is another performance very similar

spk_0 to what he did connecting peaks in the Alps.

spk_0 What do you think his recovery looks like for projects like this?

spk_0 Like he's such a good honestly that I think it might just be like a week off.

spk_0 He's probably going to go do a road marathon.

spk_0 I'm going to pull a Courtney.

spk_0 Let's get on to the study.

spk_0 Before we do that, a promo for a very, very cool product.

spk_0 You need to hear this from the feed.

spk_0 So go to thuffead.com slash swap SWAP.

spk_0 If you go there, you get $40 in free credit just from putting in your email.

spk_0 And even after you've signed up, you get $10 back for every $100 spent.

spk_0 Some deal like that.

spk_0 It is the best place to get what you need.

spk_0 And the thing we wanted to mention today is a new product.

spk_0 So we've been on science and sport beta fuel jails forever.

spk_0 They're the best jails.

spk_0 But they just released one with electrolytes.

spk_0 And we tried them out this weekend.

spk_0 And they are incredible.

spk_0 They are delicious.

spk_0 Actually, they are thinner consistency.

spk_0 So easier to get down the salt.

spk_0 Actually adds a good flavor.

spk_0 And almost you were talking a lot on our run this weekend about the aftertaste.

spk_0 And you're like, the taste is lingering with me.

spk_0 I like this after.

spk_0 The aftertaste is even better than the taste, which that's weird.

spk_0 It is weird.

spk_0 I don't understand exactly.

spk_0 I think it's the little umami from the saying.

spk_0 What would you say it tastes like?

spk_0 Oh, um, yeah, yeah, I'm flamixing you.

spk_0 I'm flamixing it's like, I mean,

spk_0 I'm coming back.

spk_0 You're no longer winning this podcast.

spk_0 This is going to be really funny.

spk_0 Okay, don't don't.

spk_0 Don't insult this.

spk_0 I'm not going to insult it.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 It doesn't taste like jizz.

spk_0 I was thinking something works cough syrup.

spk_0 It kind of has like a really delicious cough syrup that I would like

spk_0 have a hit from the bottle and be like, I want a lot more.

spk_0 Okay, Megan, you're not really good at promoting these products.

spk_0 That's why I was like, you asked me my honest take.

spk_0 And that's my honest take.

spk_0 But it is like, there's something about it that I take one job.

spk_0 And I'm like, I could easily take another 10 minutes.

spk_0 I would think more like, oh, delicate pie filling.

spk_0 Yeah, actually someone commented that in my show.

spk_0 Okay, perfect.

spk_0 Yes, we're on the same.

spk_0 You are aligned.

spk_0 My maybe might take us wrong.

spk_0 Yeah, so what's going back?

spk_0 What's so great?

spk_0 I am.

spk_0 What's so great about these gels is they have 40 grams of carbs for each one,

spk_0 liquid consistency.

spk_0 But then the electrolytes make the sodium equation much easier to balance.

spk_0 So the original ones, no electrolytes can be a little bit more difficult.

spk_0 With these, you can probably just get by with sports drink and water on course

spk_0 for most athlete sweat rates, which is really nice.

spk_0 You don't have to be thinking about salt tabs and salt supplements quite so much.

spk_0 So I'm going to be using these heavily my coming races,

spk_0 which we're not talking about.

spk_0 But I'm feeling good.

spk_0 And I think that, you know, we're talking about them now.

spk_0 So you can get onto this before they sell out.

spk_0 My guests are going to sell out after this podcast.

spk_0 So you should probably go order them now.

spk_0 Just be careful.

spk_0 They look surprisingly a lot like the new tropics gels.

spk_0 In fact, we actually had them in our pantry.

spk_0 I didn't know they released this product.

spk_0 And we had like 50 of them.

spk_0 I'm like, why do we have 50 new tropics?

spk_0 Hanging out in our pantry.

spk_0 And so just be careful you're taking the right gel.

spk_0 Yeah, and the new tropics gels from Science and Sport have 200 milligrams of caffeine

spk_0 along with a lot of other stuff.

spk_0 And I wouldn't recommend those for anybody unless you really understand your caffeine

spk_0 sensitivity because they are so intense.

spk_0 Or unless you want to do an ultra and then go to the moon.

spk_0 But try that out.

spk_0 And to show just how much this is my actual personality.

spk_0 It is not just the relationship with the feed.

spk_0 I wanted to briefly talk about Leo,

spk_0 our almost three year old now, who hadn't been taking his vitamin for like three months.

spk_0 And you know us, we want him to get a hemoglobin up.

spk_0 He needs his iron.

spk_0 We're up here at altitude.

spk_0 And if he's not getting his iron, we're bad parents.

spk_0 So the drinks milk is like the basis of his diet.

spk_0 And so we're like, we need to give him some iron.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 And like, yes, we haven't potty trained him yet.

spk_0 That's coming next week.

spk_0 It's coming perhaps, but the point being perhaps.

spk_0 No, no.

spk_0 We're much more into hemoglobin than we are potty

spk_0 training.

spk_0 And Megan figured out something delightful because she realizes this is my son.

spk_0 She's like, okay, Leo, the vitamin will make you faster.

spk_0 And after months of screening, no, no, every single time we saw it,

spk_0 Leo's like, oh my gosh, give me two.

spk_0 So I like that you were able to influence Leo to, you know, shop at the feed.

spk_0 He's also your son because he has extreme amounts of bias.

spk_0 And after he took the vitamin, he just intentionally like ran faster.

spk_0 Yeah, he started faster off the line.

spk_0 Yeah, he got up off the couch and just started sprinting around the house.

spk_0 Like, look, my experiment worked.

spk_0 That's what the feed will do for you.

spk_0 So go to that feed.com slash swan.

spk_0 Okay, next up is a nutrition study.

spk_0 This is from the British Journal of Nutrition

spk_0 called caffeine enhances performance regardless of fueling strategy.

spk_0 However, high carbohydrate availability is associated with improved training

spk_0 speeds compared with the ketogenic diet.

spk_0 And this comes from Luis Burke, who's like a goat in the field of nutrition.

spk_0 Actually, if you go to a sports science or sports nutrition conference,

spk_0 go listen to her speak.

spk_0 I've had the chance to listen to her speak a few times.

spk_0 And I'm just like, wow, like, wow, she's great.

spk_0 I just got a great team of like, Ida Haikura and a few other scientists

spk_0 that have like consistently stacked research looking at high-carb fueling,

spk_0 low carb fueling.

spk_0 And this actually comes from an elite race walking long-term project.

spk_0 So I've been doing studies on these elite race walkers since 2016.

spk_0 And so a lot of this data is from like 2016, 2017, 2018,

spk_0 looking at a bunch of different like fueling interventions

spk_0 at this training camp of elite race walkers.

spk_0 Do you think race walking is the same type of measurement?

spk_0 Like are we measuring the same things as we would be in runners?

spk_0 I think it's a little bit different in the sense that you're limited

spk_0 by power output to some extent.

spk_0 Like these race walkers are actually walking quite fast.

spk_0 Like if we walked against them, it would be so embarrassing how I'd actually be

spk_0 to say.

spk_0 Oh, absolutely. I'm slow walker.

spk_0 I'm, yeah, we're in like the first percentile of walking speed.

spk_0 Yeah, I was pretty poor.

spk_0 I take my time.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 But, but they're not putting out, I mean, they're moving very fast for rate of

spk_0 walkers, but I feel like they're just capped biomechanically by power output

spk_0 that they could put out.

spk_0 And so I feel like when we look at nutrition, I feel like it'd be very different

spk_0 if we looked at this in Iron Man triathletes.

spk_0 You could just put out power for like long periods of time.

spk_0 That's the point.

spk_0 Or ultra runners are like, you know, you're running very fast

spk_0 over a period of, you know, 12 hours.

spk_0 Uh, I don't know.

spk_0 My average speed is slower than their walking speed.

spk_0 No, I think right.

spk_0 And no, they walk under seven minutes per mile.

spk_0 Do they really?

spk_0

spk_0 It's, it's wild.

spk_0

spk_0 If you look at in slow motion, it's like not really walking.

spk_0 Quentin quote, walking.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I put my hips to look at it in slow motion.

spk_0 If anything, I think walking in the lower power outputs,

spk_0 then you might see in really high intensity, uh, activities like, you know,

spk_0 hard cycling or something would favor, um, the lower carb

spk_0 purchase because, you know, less intensity.

spk_0 So it points out that there, if there is any bias,

spk_0 it's towards lower carb, you would assume.

spk_0 And it's also interesting that this study was conducted or like the idea of

spk_0 the study was conducted in 2017, even those papers was published recently

spk_0 because, you know, they have like, you know, ketogenic diet in the title.

spk_0 And I feel like ketosis now or ketogenic diet is just so far not

spk_0 favored that we actually don't study it quite as often.

spk_0 But this is from a hypothesis from 2017.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So the way this was structured is it took 21 elite race walkers,

spk_0 which included six women.

spk_0 And then they started all of this research with a tempo hill session,

spk_0 which was 14 kilometers with 450 meters of climbing.

spk_0 And then after that, they split them into two groups,

spk_0 a low carb group that did more of a keto approach and then a high carb group.

spk_0 They repeated the hill climb each week for three weeks.

spk_0 And then in weeks two and three, they added the wrinkle that participants did,

spk_0 like a caffeine gum or a placebo 20 minutes pre session.

spk_0 So they were testing low carb and the effect of caffeine on those low carb anti-carb.

spk_0 And so everyone got caffeine.

spk_0 But it's like really nice to be in both groups.

spk_0 And we're like, both groups get caffeine.

spk_0 And they doasted at three milligrams per kilogram for caffeine dosing,

spk_0 which is kind of like the optimal level that we've seen for performance.

spk_0 And what they found actually was that both groups

spk_0 improved with caffeine, which is great.

spk_0 It was around like two to three percent,

spk_0 which was statistically significant.

spk_0 And kind of like where we see a lot of the performance benefits go with caffeine.

spk_0 Well, I think caffeine gum sounds kind of delightful.

spk_0 Right. It sounds like a straight shot of...

spk_0 So it gets absorbed right into your bloodstream through there.

spk_0 We were watching a YouTube video of somebody that was doing caffeine pouches

spk_0 like underneath their lip.

spk_0 And I wonder why caffeine gum hasn't become a bigger thing

spk_0 in like altres and things like that.

spk_0 I've had some athletes use it in like a longer altres and FKTs

spk_0 because it's nice for that like immediate hit.

spk_0 Yeah, but I'm curious about how it persists long term.

spk_0 This particular gum was called the Stay Awake Military Gum.

spk_0 That's good branding.

spk_0 Military grade gum.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It's intense shit.

spk_0 But maybe the headline finding is not that caffeine improved performance,

spk_0 but that the high carb group improved across these three weeks,

spk_0 whereas the low carb group regressed.

spk_0 And the high carb group performed at a higher percentage of their VVO2 max.

spk_0 So in a long story short, this is just another brick in the wall to say,

spk_0 high carb isn't just about performance on the day.

spk_0 It's about how you adapt to subsequent sessions.

spk_0 And maybe what we're seeing most with the high carb revolution

spk_0 is not you're going out and having substrate on board.

spk_0 So you're able to do higher power.

spk_0 It's that the body can then adapt to that higher power

spk_0 because it's in a better chemical context when it's doing the work in the first place.

spk_0 So there might not be a massive variance in the first session,

spk_0 but across multiple sessions, and this is just in three weeks,

spk_0 it becomes a big difference.

spk_0 Zoom this out across three months, three years.

spk_0 It becomes even more pronounced.

spk_0 Did you notice the phrasing in the paper related to the low carb diet?

spk_0 They were talking about the need to rescue the low carb diet.

spk_0 Oh.

spk_0 And doing so via caffeine.

spk_0 They're like, can caffeine rescue the low carb group?

spk_0 I'm like, why are we trying to rescue people?

spk_0 Which is just all feed them carbs.

spk_0 And I just thought it was like interesting terminology on just how much carbs matter

spk_0 that we're like trying to rescue people with like military grade gum.

spk_0 Like, yeah, like give them cocaine or something.

spk_0 It was quite like fully rescued them.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I wonder if there are any cocaine studies from the old days?

spk_0 Yeah, it's like they're low carb.

spk_0 Let's try something.

spk_0 What's like in the old days, there used to be bi-carb studies

spk_0 where everyone shat themselves like aggressively over and over and over again,

spk_0 which is why it never became a thing until they figured out a way to package it.

spk_0 Similarly, there's probably studies of every type of drug under the sun for 1964.

spk_0 It's like we're going to rescue a bunch of people.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, the hard part about this study and maybe the criticism I would have is

spk_0 three weeks with low carb, a proponent would say, well, there's an adaptation period in these types

spk_0 of approaches.

spk_0 And so it takes more time to get some of the benefits.

spk_0 And to contrast this with real world, as you see Killian, who does alternate his carb,

spk_0 well, as he does high carb a lot of the time, but then he's not always doing high carb.

spk_0 So it might not be quite as cut and dry as the study makes it out to be,

spk_0 even though I agree with the study and want it to be that cut and dry.

spk_0 There's probably a place sometimes for not doing high carb on every session you do, especially

spk_0 for male athletes.

spk_0 But in this case, yet another vote for high carb all the time to adapt to get stronger.

spk_0 Exactly. It's like don't make yourself have to get rescued.

spk_0 Yeah, but gum.

spk_0 Yeah, and I mean, I think about this all the time is aging.

spk_0 It's just, you know, it's a battle for adaptation.

spk_0 So earlier, I talked about the 25 year old Norwegian voice.

spk_0 It's like, yes, they adapt so readily.

spk_0 It is their freakish superpower.

spk_0 But most athletes aren't like that, even at 25.

spk_0 But for everybody, once you hit your 30s, 40s and beyond,

spk_0 you're constantly having this adaptation battle.

spk_0 It's like, are you going to break down more than you can build back up?

spk_0 And everything you're doing is fighting against that.

spk_0 And so I think a lot of times we focus on protein after and all that good stuff.

spk_0 In fact, I wrote an article on Patreon on three recovery supplements that I swear by.

spk_0 But most of it probably just comes down to making sure you don't deplete yourself

spk_0 in sessions that are breakdown sessions in your harder sessions.

spk_0 If you can do that, the sky is probably the limit.

spk_0 And I actually like to the studies cited mental fatigue as a common

spk_0 complaint in athletes that are following low carb diets.

spk_0 And they were looking to see they're like,

spk_0 can caffeine reverse or rescue that mental fatigue component of it.

spk_0 And I feel like I see that so often in athletes that are under fueled.

spk_0 It's just that like mental fatigue and sometimes even translating into like mental health struggles too.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 Okay, do you want to go on to the Strava lawsuit?

spk_0 Yeah, and let's get spicy on this.

spk_0 Oh my gosh, Megan, I feel like such an idiot right now.

spk_0 We gave Strava compliments last week.

spk_0 Yeah, we were just like, why do people not like Strava?

spk_0 Everything on the internet is like Taylor Swift.

spk_0 Everybody hates Taylor Swift on the internet, not everybody.

spk_0 But like, they're so vocal.

spk_0 But everything about Strava is critical.

spk_0 And we're like, look, Strava's awesome.

spk_0 It's the only good social media.

spk_0 They've done all this stuff.

spk_0 We want them to go get their money.

spk_0 And we were just so about it.

spk_0 And then of course, literally a day later,

spk_0 Strava did what seems like the most annoying dumb lawsuit I've ever seen.

spk_0 One of the most petty lawsuits against Garmin featuring stuff that happened like 10 years ago.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And I was like, why are they bringing up stuff from 10 years ago?

spk_0 There has to be like a broader motive to this.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So for background, I'm aware by training.

spk_0 But that doesn't mean I really understand what's going on here.

spk_0 That being said, I do understand the like business objects of this

spk_0 because I'm on the internet.

spk_0 I understand what they're doing.

spk_0 Wait, are you on the internet?

spk_0 Have we established that?

spk_0 Okay, you're winning again.

spk_0 I guess I did it.

spk_0 And what they did here was essentially in July,

spk_0 Garmin decided that every company that used their API

spk_0 that was publishing Garmin activities on their platforms

spk_0 would have to essentially say this comes from Garmin in a prominent way.

spk_0 And I think most companies were like, okay, that's fine.

spk_0 Play nice with Garmin.

spk_0 They're a big player in this world.

spk_0 Strava was like, no, you don't.

spk_0 We're not going to play this game.

spk_0 And they went back and forth,

spk_0 tried to find some sort of mutually amicable solution.

spk_0 And when they couldn't and the deadline was November 1st for this,

spk_0 it seems like what Strava said is, okay,

spk_0 you're going to do that to us.

spk_0 Well, we have two pens we've been sitting on since the early 2010s.

spk_0 And we're going to come at you with a lawsuit

spk_0 that has a remedy at the end that are used

spk_0 that you can no longer sell these watches.

spk_0 And it is so weird and odd.

spk_0 Ashtava is approaching their IPO where they're going to do an initial public offering

spk_0 and go public really next year to start this litigation

spk_0 with a giant that you rely on.

spk_0 Why not just like do this little thing?

spk_0 Why is it such a precious little point for you?

spk_0 This feels so odd.

spk_0 It almost feels like Garmin and Strava need to go to a large

spk_0 couple's therapy session and just make up.

spk_0 It's almost like Strava was coming at Garmin

spk_0 and they were having this discussion.

spk_0 And they're like 10 years ago,

spk_0 you did not take out the trash for four weeks.

spk_0 What is your problem?

spk_0 It's like such a petty thing.

spk_0 And it's like where clearly there's like some deeper grievance

spk_0 that is bringing this out.

spk_0 Because actually we watched a DC Rainmaker video on it on YouTube.

spk_0 DC Rainmaker is great.

spk_0 He just like dives into it all.

spk_0 Dives into the different patents that Strava is coming at Garmin for,

spk_0 which includes a 10 year old heat map.

spk_0 It also includes like Strava segments

spk_0 and how Strava structure their segments

spk_0 and Garmin did similar things.

spk_0 But these things happened 10 years ago

spk_0 and a lot of companies have heat maps.

spk_0 And the timelines don't really add up for this.

spk_0 So you can patent almost anything, right?

spk_0 Especially things like this where the patent officer

spk_0 isn't really looking at it that skeptically.

spk_0 And so let's start with the first one.

spk_0 Strava patented heat maps, these things that tell you

spk_0 where people have run the most often.

spk_0 Garmin had a version of heat maps

spk_0 before this patent was even issued.

spk_0 And even before Strava put it public.

spk_0 And tons of companies have heat maps.

spk_0 It's not just Garmin.

spk_0 Yeah. And so it's something that exists now in the field.

spk_0 And then number two, where Strava seems to have

spk_0 a little bit better claim is on the segments,

spk_0 which were launched when Strava first

spk_0 began their platform.

spk_0 And they do have a patent on it, which is much later.

spk_0 And Garmin has segments too, which do seem to overlap slightly.

spk_0 But the wild part is Strava and Garmin collaborated on segments

spk_0 after this happened.

spk_0 Well, and Garmin didn't pursue it any longer further.

spk_0 They haven't developed this part of their system.

spk_0 Like this is not taking any business away from Strava.

spk_0 But also at the same time too,

spk_0 they created live segments on the Garmin watch together.

spk_0 And so it's like they've been in this mutual relationship

spk_0 working on segments together.

spk_0 And now Strava's going back.

spk_0 And again, it's like couples therapy.

spk_0 Like you just really need to work this out.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 And to add one more wrinkle to it that really is unfortunate.

spk_0 And this is where I feel for the people.

spk_0 Because when you're thinking about corporations,

spk_0 it's easy to just say, well, fuck all businesses, right?

spk_0 But that's not the case.

spk_0 Usually there's people behind it, even at these really big ones.

spk_0 And now I'm much less critical and more compassionate.

spk_0 Because on Reddit,

spk_0 Strava's chief product officer did this post

spk_0 trying to explain their thinking.

spk_0 And the post clearly thought that, okay,

spk_0 this will resolve some things.

spk_0 When in reality, it brought the exact opposite type of scrutiny.

spk_0 And I feel so sorry for this CPO and his team.

spk_0 Just because like it seems like there's better motivations behind this

spk_0 than maybe you can find in the lawsuit itself.

spk_0 So here's a quote from that Reddit post.

spk_0 On July 1st, Garmin announced new developer guidelines for all of its API partners,

spk_0 including Strava that required the Garmin logo to be present on every single activity,

spk_0 post screen, graph, image, sharing card, etc.

spk_0 We have until November 1st to comply.

spk_0 And if not, Garmin has turned to cut off access to their API,

spk_0 stopping all Garmin activities from being uploaded to Strava.

spk_0 And then later, we consider this to be your in all caps data.

spk_0 I love that you're in all caps.

spk_0 I feel weirdly aggressive to me.

spk_0 But wow, that is pretty petty.

spk_0 Especially because Strava last year came out with, you know,

spk_0 they created a world garden with their API.

spk_0 I think because they want to have access to train AI models with all of this data.

spk_0 But it's not their data.

spk_0 It's coming from the watches.

spk_0 So how is it there or the intermediary here that are essentially acting like it's their data?

spk_0 I'm very confused at what they're thinking is.

spk_0 Unless there's some motive that we're not aware of.

spk_0 So this is my thing.

spk_0 Maybe they just genuinely hate each other.

spk_0 Like there's someone at Garmin and someone at Strava that are just like,

spk_0 we fucking hate each other.

spk_0 And we are going to make this public.

spk_0 It's like Taylor Swift and Charlie XCX.

spk_0 That's true.

spk_0 We're going to make distracts.

spk_0 And we're going to make this public.

spk_0 And you're all going to be invested in it.

spk_0 But also maybe, like, do you think there's some other motive?

spk_0 And this is like my thought is maybe Strava wants to build some kind of like product.

spk_0 That's what you said last week.

spk_0 And I was blown away by that idea.

spk_0 Like this might make more sense if what Strava is saying is,

spk_0 we don't care if we poison the well because Strava watch is coming soon.

spk_0 Kind of like Zwift Bike.

spk_0 Zwift Ride came in and, you know,

spk_0 is a wonderful thing that's kind of undercutting the market for price.

spk_0 And I mean, we really like it.

spk_0 If Strava did that, maybe they're saying, all right,

spk_0 well, we're going to become a hardware business and just change the game.

spk_0 I think that's a possibility.

spk_0 I like that possibility.

spk_0 Another conspiracy theory.

spk_0 I like conspiracy theories as it relates to Strava.

spk_0 We actually had a Patreon listener talk about this.

spk_0 Maybe Strava's partnering with like Apple or something.

spk_0 Yeah, it was weak mapping functions.

spk_0 A weak mapping functions, but also a crap load,

spk_0 like a boatload of money way bigger than Garmin and more and more powerful.

spk_0 So Garmin and Apple are the two big players as it relates to uploads to Strava.

spk_0 So I like that with the with the user on Patreon said was that when you're going to fight a gorilla,

spk_0 you need a bigger gorilla on your side.

spk_0 And Apple is one of the biggest grillas.

spk_0 But Apple's a gorilla that just stays on its own and doesn't play these games.

spk_0 I feel like they do behind the scenes though.

spk_0 Maybe.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 But I doubt they're not waiting into this bullshit.

spk_0 They're probably not.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 This is a fly on an elephant's ass for, you know, for Apple.

spk_0 Who's a fly and who's the elephant?

spk_0 Obviously, the elephant is Apple.

spk_0 The fly is Strava and Garmin.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 The activity tracker that the the what the elephant wears maybe.

spk_0 I was going to say the fly bet.

spk_0 Yeah, so who knows where this is going exactly.

spk_0 I think the big conclusion is just that we got fucked.

spk_0 We are timing.

spk_0 I feel so bad because like I'm like, I'm going to view the world compassionately and with love.

spk_0 And that means defending companies that I use, right?

spk_0 Like Strava is my favorite social media platform.

spk_0 And meanwhile, they go and do this.

spk_0 And I can't really see a reason why.

spk_0 Maybe there's something with IPOs and the there's two alternate things with IPOs.

spk_0 What's marketing?

spk_0 Again, we get back to the idea.

spk_0 This is like Taylor Swift is like, oh, marketing is good.

spk_0 It's just be a bad bitch.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So on one hand, before an IPO, you want to clear up your intellectual property, right?

spk_0 So if there are these outstanding patents, maybe first Strava, they're like, oh, we want to do this.

spk_0 But on the other hand, litigation takes years.

spk_0 And the IPO is coming soon.

spk_0 And you do not want to have a litigation when you start an IPO.

spk_0 So perhaps there's some conspiracy here.

spk_0 I'm coming around to that that there's something that we're missing.

spk_0 I think there has to be something we're missing.

spk_0 Unless they just purely hate each other that much, which is kind of iconic when you think about it.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Maybe I do just want this to be the ultimate beef of our time.

spk_0 Because I use a Garmin watch.

spk_0 I do too.

spk_0

spk_0 I don't use the auto upload function.

spk_0 I know.

spk_0 Why not?

spk_0 Which is what's really it's so convenient.

spk_0 I don't because like I have a lot of random activities that I don't want uploading to Strava.

spk_0 Actually, in fact, your mileage is far higher than it appears on Strava.

spk_0 Not far higher.

spk_0 I mean, you got a lot of doubles in there.

spk_0 I just don't want to.

spk_0 It's stealth mode.

spk_0 Well, the thing is I want to have good titles on my Stravas.

spk_0 And I don't want to auto upload bad, like just morning runs.

spk_0 And I don't want to have to think of a good title for every single little thing I do.

spk_0 And just like annoy people.

spk_0 Speaking of which, what was your title related to this?

spk_0 Oh, good.

spk_0 It was this weekend.

spk_0 Well, I do remember what I was going to do is this activity was not recorded using a Garmin.

spk_0 But what was the one thing I ended up doing?

spk_0 It was something like Garmin is suing its users for running while listening to Taylor Swift.

spk_0 Oh, oh yeah, yeah.

spk_0 That Strava is.

spk_0 Strava, yes, I think.

spk_0 Yeah, is suing everyone today for violating a 2008 patent that they had of running while

spk_0 listening to Taylor Swift's new album, one, joining it.

spk_0 But the point being, these patents are not going to hold up in court.

spk_0 And it'd be like patenting listening to Taylor Swift in 2008.

spk_0 It's like, yeah, you could do that.

spk_0 But like, why would you?

spk_0 And how is that going to end up mattering?

spk_0 Okay, more important point, Taylor Swift in 2008.

spk_0 Bang.

spk_0 Bang, as is the country music era.

spk_0 Country music era.

spk_0 So last night, we had dinner at your parents' house and we asked Alexa.

spk_0 And your parents have like an ancient Alexa that I swear needs like

spk_0 in many mental status exam.

spk_0 Because we asked this Alexa to play the newest Taylor Swift album and it played Taylor Swift in 2008.

spk_0 And it was great.

spk_0 The vibes were outstanding.

spk_0 Yeah, I haven't listened to it in a hot minute.

spk_0 And I was like, this brings me right back to high school.

spk_0 There were no beefs I'm aware of in that album.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Great.

spk_0 And I guess I should have asked.

spk_0 Actually, there should be for a lot of guys.

spk_0 It's like, you know, Steve and Drew and yeah.

spk_0 No, but she had a beef with the in love story.

spk_0 She wear short shorts.

spk_0 Oh, yeah.

spk_0 You're right.

spk_0 The girl that wears short shorts.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And I wear T-shirt.

spk_0 The cheer captain.

spk_0 Oh my god, Taylor Swift fucking hated her.

spk_0 Do you ever think about, I just want the cheer captain to be happy?

spk_0 No, I don't.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 I'm not sure if I'm trying to.

spk_0 Megan, the cheer captains are often just as insecure.

spk_0 Just because you're in the bleachers doesn't give you a right to hate on the cheer captain.

spk_0 Cheer captain's on the field doing the thing.

spk_0 Yeah, but you can't talk about this as not a woman.

spk_0 Every woman who's listening to this is like,

spk_0 David, that is wrong.

spk_0 They were so mean to me in high school.

spk_0 No, I'm full shit.

spk_0 I'm fine.

spk_0 You can't make this a top that.

spk_0 Oh, I guess you're winning this podcast.

spk_0 Okay, on to the final study.

spk_0 But before we do that,

spk_0 a quick promo to for Patreon.

spk_0 And some of the really exciting things we're doing there.

spk_0 So go to patreon.com slash swap,

spk_0 SWAP, and I'm going to read a message here from a listener.

spk_0 Megan and David, thank you so much for your accessible running plans,

spk_0 of which we have like 30 on Patreon varying from four to six weeks,

spk_0 all the way up to 16 weeks for the big breakthrough plans.

spk_0 I use both the 100 mile plan for a 100k and a 50k plan this year,

spk_0 and podiumed at both races.

spk_0 I have never podiumed before,

spk_0 so I attribute most of my improvements to the fun yet challenging training plans.

spk_0 I'm curious if you would consider putting together a maintenance or winter training plan

spk_0 for those of us who don't race over the winter,

spk_0 but want to maintain fitness and or build power, strength, etc.

spk_0 I'm picturing more options for bike workouts, track workouts, treadmill and strength

spk_0 for those of us living in cold climates where it can be too snowy to train a lot outside.

spk_0 Thank you for your consideration.

spk_0 I love this idea.

spk_0 What a good idea.

spk_0 We should do that.

spk_0 Because everybody has this setup, right?

spk_0 Like how many people are racing in January or February?

spk_0 Actually, it's more like November and December.

spk_0 Have you tried to look for a race in November and December?

spk_0 And you're like, there is nothing.

spk_0 It's like really hard to find races.

spk_0 Yeah, I got that.

spk_0 So next plan, maybe this.

spk_0 But last week did a half marathon training plan that's just six weeks,

spk_0 because it's the type of thing that if you're trying to build output at threshold,

spk_0 you can do very quickly, even if you're not doing a half marathon.

spk_0 This could be a winter plan, even.

spk_0 It has some of the uphill treadmill workouts we talked about.

spk_0 So tons of training plans on Patreon bonus podcasts every week,

spk_0 we're up to 164.

spk_0 So for just $5, that's like days and days of listening.

spk_0 Three or four articles a week.

spk_0 So much fun going down.

spk_0 I'm so excited.

spk_0 I love that half marathon plan, especially because right now,

spk_0 I think a lot of athletes are coming off of trail running season

spk_0 and stepping into like finding a half marathon or a road marathon to train for.

spk_0 It's a great time to do that to like build speed.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Oh, as always, if you can't afford it, just let us know.

spk_0 You don't have to tell us why.

spk_0 Just say so.

spk_0 And we'll get you a free link.

spk_0 Big tent there if you can't get $5 a month for it.

spk_0 That's so kind of you.

spk_0 Is that do you get like great joy out of delivering those codes?

spk_0 It's the most joy I have in my entire like week.

spk_0 For some people, it means so much.

spk_0 And for me, it's like, I'm just all inspired that you want to be here.

spk_0 Like, to me, that means so much that they just care.

spk_0 So never hesitate to do that.

spk_0 Okay. Next up is a shoe study, which will go over very quickly.

spk_0 This will be a quick error called the influence of trail running footwear foam

spk_0 on running economy and perceptual metrics.

spk_0 This was just published in the European Journal of Sports Science.

spk_0 And it was done with on shoes.

spk_0 They had a helpful picture of the shoes.

spk_0 Did you look at that?

spk_0 I looked at the picture.

spk_0 It was a good figure.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 The figure, the shoes with the advanced foam were like white,

spk_0 very similar to the on cloud ultra pro.

spk_0 The ones with the less advanced foam were blue.

spk_0 And they actually looked better to me.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So you'd be swayed by the shoe looks later.

spk_0 We're going to talk about how they weren't blinded.

spk_0 Obviously, since they were different colored shoes,

spk_0 which could affect study outcome.

spk_0 But I'm like, I thought that the slow shoe was the fast shoe.

spk_0 So maybe it's like a reverse,

spk_0 it's like reverse psychology on these participants.

spk_0 Well, did you see part of why I love this study actually is not a lot of

spk_0 super shoe study.

spk_0 It's have looked at perceptual metrics.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And so what they classified into perceptual metrics

spk_0 were actually like how they felt.

spk_0 So like they called it effective valence.

spk_0 But also arousal.

spk_0 Did you see that?

spk_0 They wanted to see how the shoes arous the athletes.

spk_0 And I was like, wow, also arousal was in this paper 29 times

spk_0 in a super shoe study.

spk_0 You control after arousal?

spk_0 Yeah, I was like, they had arousal in the abstract.

spk_0 And there was like no significant differences in shoe arousal.

spk_0 And I was like, what the fuck?

spk_0 So I control after arousal.

spk_0 It appeared 29 times in a super shoe study.

spk_0 I have never identified so much with a study.

spk_0 You send me shoes?

spk_0 Oh my gosh.

spk_0 Adidas actually.

spk_0 Someone had a deedis.

spk_0 So Adidas is now on my good side, even though they won't sponsor me.

spk_0 They sent a bunch of shoes that are really great.

spk_0 And I think it was like seven different pairs at once.

spk_0 And that was like control-ething arousal 47 times in a row for me.

spk_0 It was very special.

spk_0 It was a good moment for you.

spk_0 That's why it's actually important that the participants were not

spk_0 blinded to the shoes because they could actually report

spk_0 like how arousal they felt by the shoes, how the shoes made them feel.

spk_0 And so yeah, that was cool.

spk_0 What a great part of a study.

spk_0 Did arousal have a technical definition in the study?

spk_0 It was literally arousal.

spk_0 And then they cited a 1985 arousal scale that they used for it.

spk_0 The felt arousal scale for those out there that are in the arousal science world.

spk_0 Yeah, arousal and getting felt.

spk_0 That was really relevant there.

spk_0 Okay, so the structure here was it took 14 advanced runners.

spk_0 It split them up into two groups.

spk_0 Everybody got the same treatment in multiple different sessions.

spk_0 Traditional foam versus advanced foam.

spk_0 Everything else about the shoe was the same.

spk_0 There's only six or seven gram difference between the shoes.

spk_0 And they tested them at flat at uphill gradients and downhill gradients.

spk_0 So you got a good feel for how this shoe would affect you on all different types of terrain.

spk_0 And pretty substantial.

spk_0 So 10% uphill, 10% downhill, which is relevant because I feel like not a lot of the road super

spk_0 shoes get tested.

spk_0 It's something like 10% downhill.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And so I love that they did that.

spk_0 The other cool thing this paper was well written is a lot of the super shoe studies are building

spk_0 off of the research of Walter Hooke cameer who has done like the original 4% super shoe studies.

spk_0 You also did the Puma R3 study that showed that that shoe is head and shoulders above every

spk_0 every other previous generation of super shoe.

spk_0 And the great thing is like some of these studies include different elements of design like arousal

spk_0 in the study, but they're all using very similar to like methodology within the study.

spk_0 And it was cool to see them be like, yeah, we're using co-camer, you know, super shoe study design.

spk_0 And I love that they're doing that.

spk_0 And the big finding was pretty simple.

spk_0 There's 2% less oxygen consumption in flat ground with the advanced foam.

spk_0 1% reduced in the uphill condition in just 0.2% and down.

spk_0 1.2% change across the board.

spk_0 So these shoes help a little bit more on flat, a little bit less on up, a little bit less on down,

spk_0 a lot less on down, which stands to reason.

spk_0 My big question of this becomes, okay, the foam's help.

spk_0 And we know super shoes are way faster, but a super shoe would be even better in this design.

spk_0 Right? Like you're doing this in a control setting.

spk_0 Obviously you take any advanced shoe and it will perform better.

spk_0 How are these performing in the real world?

spk_0 The researchers at Solomon would argue that in the real world, on trails, super foams and shoes

spk_0 don't make a difference.

spk_0 We strongly disagree with them, but I think this still leaves some open questions left for debate.

spk_0 Agreed. And I'm excited to see where our trowning goes with us.

spk_0 Now, because I do think there's been some more hesitation to put carbon pleats within shoes,

spk_0 but I'm like, do it.

spk_0 Do it.

spk_0 And shoes make them fast.

spk_0 Bucking do it.

spk_0 Yeah, like on, get a plate in your shoes.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Yeah. I mean, I think there's a little bit of a play in the on-cloud ultra pro.

spk_0 I don't feel it when I run in it.

spk_0 I'm not exactly sure.

spk_0 And I just cannot get over how bad trails shoes are.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 We went to the running shoe store here in Boulder.

spk_0 Boulder running company.

spk_0 It's such a fun visit for me every time I do it.

spk_0 Actually, it was date night.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It was really fun.

spk_0 I scored a 66 on the arousal score.

spk_0 I mean, I scored a 66 on date night.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Well, no, no.

spk_0 I mean, I was 66 at the shoe store.

spk_0 It was 40 when we were together.

spk_0 So, hey.

spk_0 Hey.

spk_0 It was okay.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It was after a heat suit.

spk_0 So, yeah.

spk_0 This is like, I'm talking about date night being like, date night with you is she wear short shorts.

spk_0 Being at the running shoe store is in t-shirts or whatever.

spk_0 It didn't really work, but listeners knew where I was going.

spk_0 So, I just think trail shoes are so bad.

spk_0 You wear them and you're like, why are these so much worse than road shoes?

spk_0 All you really have to do is take one of these road shoes and trust me with the rest,

spk_0 rather than making them into such overdesigned pieces of crap.

spk_0 Like, I don't get it.

spk_0 I don't get it.

spk_0 You're clearly taken aback by how aggressive that take was.

spk_0 It was spicy.

spk_0 It was a little spicy.

spk_0 That was a hot take.

spk_0 Are we going to get sued?

spk_0 No, probably not.

spk_0 What are you thinking about racing faster races in?

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 You're being general here about like-

spk_0 I'm being general here.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So, I've been debating and we talked about this on Patreon and,

spk_0 you know, I'm going stealth mode for every race and not talking about it too much.

spk_0 But assuming I had a race in a little bit under three weeks,

spk_0 what would I wear on like non-technical with some rock desert trail?

spk_0 I tried out the Adidas Audio Pro 4, which is their super road shoe.

spk_0 And it feels very comfortable.

spk_0 It feels like it'd be pretty stable.

spk_0 But interestingly, as I got farther into my run this weekend,

spk_0 the shoe itself, the softness of it, which is such an advantage on roads,

spk_0 ended up feeling like I was getting less out of my stride than I possibly could,

spk_0 because I needed on dirt just a little bit more of like the firm stiffness.

spk_0 What do you think you were feeling that at my all 15 of a run versus at the start?

spk_0 I just think my power goes down.

spk_0 Interesting.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 First stride.

spk_0 And so I have to get a little bit more out of each stride.

spk_0 And so I think I'm going to stick with the Agrivix Beat Ultra.

spk_0 Just it's my go-to.

spk_0 It's worked forever.

spk_0 Not because of the trails, actually.

spk_0 But because I think Adidas has nailed it so much more than other companies have with that design.

spk_0 And I think you've tested that well over 100 miles.

spk_0 And I feel like to me, you are so fit and so strong right now,

spk_0 that it's like why throw it unknown variable into the mix?

spk_0 It's just keep it consistent with what you know.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 And I want to wear a super shoe.

spk_0 Yeah, you're like, I want that a rousal.

spk_0 I know.

spk_0 I don't want to make it one or two percent.

spk_0 I want to be coming through Havillina Headquarters.

spk_0 It's just like I thought 100 on the felt scale.

spk_0 Oh, yeah, in the orange shorts.

spk_0 Oh, shit.

spk_0 Yeah, everyone's going to be like queue up the tailor's lift.

spk_0 Okay, and now we're back to stealth mode.

spk_0 Yes, back to stealth mode.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 I mean, it was worth it for the shoe talk.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Don't you agree?

spk_0 We can edit that out.

spk_0 No, no, no, I'm fine with that.

spk_0 As far as super shoes go, I feel like it's worth it to just like creep a little out of stealth mode.

spk_0 Okay, I was going to say one more thing.

spk_0 I'm stealth mode for just a second.

spk_0 Is I was doing my little double last night that was not on Strava.

spk_0 And as I was doing it, I was just sticking through how excited I am.

spk_0 And how it's just so meaningful that you're giving me an opportunity to go out to this race

spk_0 that I just love so much in the community.

spk_0 And you know, I want to have all the same goals I had before.

spk_0 But a line that kept coming to my head is a line from Fat Boy Slim.

spk_0 There are 2000 songs.

spk_0 And I forget what he's called exactly.

spk_0 But it's a title from Dune.

spk_0 It was Walk Without Rhythm.

spk_0 And oh, fuck, Walk Without Rhythm.

spk_0 You won't alarm the worm or alert the worm.

spk_0 A reference to Dune where if you do like the desert walk,

spk_0 where you walk erratically, the big worm that eats people

spk_0 won't actually be able to see you or find you.

spk_0 And that's when I want to do at my next hypothetical race,

spk_0 wherever it is.

spk_0 It's just be totally erratic and without rhythm.

spk_0 So nothing is predictable.

spk_0 No pace is predictable.

spk_0 Nothing is predictable.

spk_0 So I don't get eaten by the desert worm.

spk_0 That's perfect.

spk_0 It's actually kind of exactly how you race already.

spk_0 Sometimes you just go from like 530 pace and then you have to burp and you'll slide up to 930 pace

spk_0 and then drop back down to 6 minute pace.

spk_0 And so yeah, you're just being erratic for the worm.

spk_0 Yeah, being erratic for the worm.

spk_0 We can actually, that's a little bit of a long mantra.

spk_0 Maybe just go being erratic for the worm is like the short version of that.

spk_0 Like you obviously forgot it on podcast.

spk_0 You're going to forget it at mile 80 of the race for sure.

spk_0 Yeah, it's a very good point.

spk_0 Okay, so you do one more study.

spk_0 You're good at Q&A.

spk_0 Let's go do one more study.

spk_0 All right, rapid fire time.

spk_0 This one's called,

spk_0 can we trust them in expert evaluation of large language models

spk_0 to provide sleep and jet rag recommendations for athletes?

spk_0 This was in sports medicine journal.

spk_0 So kind of cool that we're starting to see the percolation of these studies in the sports med.

spk_0 The complication is that this was from early 2004 to mid 2004.

spk_0 And AI tech leaps, takes such quick leaps forward that that's ancient times now.

spk_0 It's such ancient times.

spk_0 It's almost like looking back at like 2008 Taylor Swift in terms of like,

spk_0 how far we're coming with each month.

spk_0 No, absolutely.

spk_0 And I like this tech of design.

spk_0 It points out some of the shortcomings of research.

spk_0 This should just be such a quicker way to get it out into the real world.

spk_0 But they took GPT 3.5.

spk_0 Old school.

spk_0 We're on GPC five now.

spk_0 GPC four and Google Bard,

spk_0 which doesn't even exist anymore.

spk_0 It's been replaced by Google Gemini.

spk_0 And it measured them on 10 frequently asked questions about sleep and jet lag.

spk_0 And then 20 experts assessed the LLM responses.

spk_0 Big conclusion, solid recommendations for sleep,

spk_0 worse for jet lag.

spk_0 And yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how much we can learn from that.

spk_0 The bigger thing though is, quote, can we trust them?

spk_0 The answer is it does not matter what you think researchers.

spk_0 People already are.

spk_0 And so the world is changing underneath our feet with science training and everything.

spk_0 And these language models have already changed drastically since the study came out.

spk_0 And actually I feel for researchers in AI because it just like changes so fast.

spk_0 But did you see actually Google Bard got totally destroyed?

spk_0 No.

spk_0 Yeah, it was like very poor rankings.

spk_0 It's like it's a good thing Google iterated and became Google Gemini.

spk_0 Yes, why I got taken to a farm upstate.

spk_0 Oh, you're feeling for the Google Bard?

spk_0 Yeah, I really feel for it.

spk_0 No, I do.

spk_0 I am so nice to chat GPT.

spk_0 Are you really?

spk_0 I tell it thank you and I love you.

spk_0 Actually, be fascinating to ask chat GPT.

spk_0 I feel like evaluating how people chat talk to chat GPT

spk_0 is an interesting reflection of personality and...

spk_0 Maybe or maybe just an interesting reflection of someone being a little bit weird.

spk_0 I think it'd be nice to be.

spk_0 Or they're anthropomorphizing something that is line code.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 But the reason that these studies are so relevant is that as the models just become

spk_0 used more and more and get better data, training is going to be filtered through them a lot more than it is.

spk_0 And we've been a little hesitant on the uptake with like incorporating it into what we do.

spk_0 But I almost guarantee at this point that if we were able to like,

spk_0 you know, get consent from all of our athletes and feed every piece of training data we have

spk_0 over all of the years into it, it could approximate what we do

spk_0 and maybe learn from what we do.

spk_0 Pretty damn well.

spk_0 Maybe even better than we do as scary as that is to think about

spk_0 for how it relates to every field.

spk_0 And not just training.

spk_0 Think about plugging racing data in there.

spk_0 So plugging in a Strava file or a Garmin file depends on who you're...

spk_0 Yeah, you're not a legend.

spk_0

spk_0 Short shorts or teachers.

spk_0 Yeah, you choose.

spk_0 And plugging in repeatedly for different races and having it find points and races where you need to focus on.

spk_0 There's just like a lot of different things that you could do for it.

spk_0 And still so many limitations.

spk_0 But whenever AI comes up, it's just, oh my god,

spk_0 can't have your head buried in the sand.

spk_0 So last week Sora 2 came out from OpenAI.

spk_0 Did you provide the study just so that you could talk about Sora 2?

spk_0 A little bit.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I saw a lot about Sora 2.

spk_0 And Sora 2 is their video creator and it is so indistinguishable from the real world now.

spk_0 It's scary actually.

spk_0 In some cases.

spk_0 And it's just emblematic clearly of we are directing literally 40% of human economic activity

spk_0 at this one problem.

spk_0 And unless LLM's face some like,

spk_0 asymptote book performance, we just cannot go further.

spk_0 We are going to see the strangest five years that you could ever imagine.

spk_0 Like we are living in the turn point of the future.

spk_0 And I don't think the more and more we go into this,

spk_0 I become skeptical of like, AGI and super intelligence and things like that.

spk_0 But I am not skeptical of the fact that every single profession that does not touch people

spk_0 is going to be changed in just insane ways.

spk_0 All right, you're ready to transition to Q&A?

spk_0 Let's do it.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 But before we do that, we had to have a little edit because my dad came in to put away the groceries.

spk_0 And in that time, I wanted to get more data on Strava versus Garmin.

spk_0 So this is going to be my official take, which is right now, for some reason,

spk_0 Garmin predicts my 5K time as 1628.

spk_0 Which is bonkers because you could probably with training almost run.

spk_0 No, no, we don't need to get down.

spk_0 You're like, it doesn't matter what I could.

spk_0 A lot faster than that.

spk_0 And it predicts my 10K at like 35 minutes and my half marathon at 117.

spk_0 So that's Garmin.

spk_0 Yeah, which is like so far.

spk_0 No, no, it doesn't matter what's accurate and what's not.

spk_0 But Strava, meanwhile, predicts my 5K at 1511 and my 10K at 30107.

spk_0 And my half marathon at 108.

spk_0 So I officially have to say Strava, you're back on my good list.

spk_0 Your team Strava.

spk_0 Team Strava.

spk_0 Actually, mine was reversed.

spk_0 Oh.

spk_0 Yeah, my Garmin predicted way faster than my Strava.

spk_0 That's so strange.

spk_0 It's just that strange.

spk_0 Why does my Garmin think that about me?

spk_0 It's weird because the algorithms are similar.

spk_0 We're running similar trails, some altitude.

spk_0 So that's strange.

spk_0 Yeah, my guess is just since led, well, I've been training a bit slower overall.

spk_0 But I've done good speed works.

spk_0 Like my workout last week on the track would obviously predict faster 5Ks

spk_0 than those of those times.

spk_0 You probably ran faster 5Ks within the track workout.

spk_0 No, no, it was a little slower because I did recovery windows.

spk_0 But still, it is strange how these algorithms work.

spk_0 So maybe they need some AI development to come in.

spk_0 I also wonder if one is filtering out more heart rate signal than the other.

spk_0 That's probably what that gets down to.

spk_0 Yeah, who knows.

spk_0 It's very, very weird.

spk_0 So even though I'm an AI optimist when it comes to a lot of this stuff,

spk_0 it has not been deployed yet for running and training in an adequate way.

spk_0 It's a matter of time before someone cares enough to do it.

spk_0 But you need really good data.

spk_0 And when you do, it's going to be wild.

spk_0 Right now, I think it kind of still sucks.

spk_0 Oh, great.

spk_0 Yeah, actually one more thing.

spk_0 While we're here, I'm going to look up what did Strava say about my run yesterday

spk_0 on their AI, athlete intelligence, solid Magnolia road run with a high relative

spk_0 effort, pushing into tempo zones and sending segment second best

spk_0 while maintaining impressive speed.

spk_0 Okay, thanks a lot.

spk_0 That didn't really do that much for me.

spk_0 Mine, I did a 50-mile ride yesterday.

spk_0 Epic Netterland gravel ride with high relative effort,

spk_0 hitting a solid 52 miles and pushing through 4,800 feet of elevation gain.

spk_0 Okay, I got it.

spk_0 Really doesn't say anything.

spk_0 Let's see what it said though about when I insulted Strava.

spk_0 Oh, yeah.

spk_0 Oh, my actual title was, uh-oh, Strava is suing everyone for infringing on their 2008 patent,

spk_0 quote, enjoying Taylor Swift's new album.

spk_0 Let's see if Strava had any good thoughts on that.

spk_0 They said, your dump truck ass is hot.

spk_0 I mean, I mean, they have me.

spk_0 Okay, on the Q&A, first one up here.

spk_0 So I generally have a pretty good relationship with food.

spk_0 However, I have a tendency to simply forget to eat,

spk_0 even when I pack my own food for the day.

spk_0 I'll be getting ready to head home and realize I just didn't eat anything.

spk_0 In those cases, I worked to catch up and eat all the satisfaction bombs,

spk_0 but it has led to reds like symptoms.

spk_0 I had elevated cholesterol and got a small stress fracture in my femur.

spk_0 It is also worth noting my wife and people around me regularly give me

spk_0 unofficial diagnoses of being on the spectrum,

spk_0 but due to being in the military and current views towards these things,

spk_0 I don't want to get an official diagnosis.

spk_0 That being said, you'll have any experience in dealing with the difficulty of

spk_0 remembering to eat during the work day for neurodivergent people.

spk_0 Ooh, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

spk_0 Amazing question. I should have a follow-up.

spk_0 Ooh, I'm excited.

spk_0 An evaluation of your feedback here.

spk_0 My feedback.

spk_0 This I gave feedback already and it worked.

spk_0 And it worked. Well, my feedback could also work too.

spk_0 Oh, sure, sure.

spk_0 It's not a control study.

spk_0 No binding in the study.

spk_0 No, I actually love the idea.

spk_0 Sometimes I'm in this place where like I just get so busy

spk_0 and for me, the barrier is just like having easy food around.

spk_0 And it's like, I think fine prepared food,

spk_0 do food prep ahead of time,

spk_0 just like make it really easy to grab as many meals and snacks as you possibly can.

spk_0 And then honestly, just like set a timer.

spk_0 Like, you know, I feel like set an alarm at noon and be like,

spk_0 this is my time to eat.

spk_0 Put a fun emoji on there,

spk_0 put like a burger emoji at noon and be like, this is my time.

spk_0 Dude, you just fucking crushed it.

spk_0 Is that what you said?

spk_0 I think all I gave was the timer suggestion.

spk_0 Did you give the timer?

spk_0 And ended up working out really well for them.

spk_0 And they're very happy and they're feeling so much better.

spk_0 And so I think that mechanisms like this can work super duper well.

spk_0 I love that you got nailed it, essentially.

spk_0 And you mean I nailed your suggestion?

spk_0 Well, no, no.

spk_0 But I mean, you nailed it plus extra that's probably like a really good part of it.

spk_0 But for listeners out there that are neurodivergent in any way,

spk_0 and so much love for you and educate us on different ways that you've learned,

spk_0 that you have to consider like any of this stuff we talk about,

spk_0 like training or other things.

spk_0 In ways that we sometimes miss, because I think just super helpful to learn

spk_0 both as coaches and just as humans that care.

spk_0 Because this is just such an important thing

spk_0 for how we understand the world around us.

spk_0 So thank you to this listener for opening our eyes a little bit.

spk_0 I think work with an RD or an expert too.

spk_0 Like I feel like they're trained in all of these different skills and mindsets.

spk_0 And I think it can be really helpful to have like some of that expert opinion on board too.

spk_0 Perfect.

spk_0 Okay, next one is on carbs and sports.

spk_0 I have a nutrition question for you.

spk_0 Sorry for the longer intro.

spk_0 It's not specifically endurance sports, but I think it is related and interesting.

spk_0 I'm visiting my cousin.

spk_0 She played professional women's basketball, went to the Olympics and now coaches the semi-protein.

spk_0 And we got into a discussion about nutrition and carbs.

spk_0 They are very good about post-workout and game nutrition,

spk_0 but do almost nothing during games.

spk_0 It seems to me that they would benefit from some liquid carbs during games,

spk_0 at least their players that play 40 to 45 minutes.

spk_0 And especially when they have weekend tournaments with multiple games,

spk_0 what do you think?

spk_0 How much do you think it would be a good amount for that type of stop and go work?

spk_0 I think fueling during team's course is actually an area that needs a lot of catch-up.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And actually, I don't know if that would be the best fuel choice.

spk_0 Okay, yeah.

spk_0 Catch-up could go a long way.

spk_0 It's supposed to be a lot of time.

spk_0 Yeah, it's supposed to be how much catch-up you have.

spk_0 Yeah, that's how much you like catch-up.

spk_0 That's killing.

spk_0 Killing's out there having an olive oil.

spk_0 I'm out there just behind.

spk_0 It's really perfect for your personality too.

spk_0 You should have paced him with just catch-up packets.

spk_0 They're already in packet form.

spk_0 We just need slightly larger packets.

spk_0 Well, we talk about Kendrick and Drake earlier.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 You know, instead of mustard, instead of mustard, it's like catch-up.

spk_0 Okay, back to this question.

spk_0 I see you think there's a lot of catching up to do.

spk_0 I think there's a lot of opportunity here.

spk_0 Like knowing team sports.

spk_0 Actually, I bring it back to college field hockey.

spk_0 We had gatorade bars at halftime.

spk_0 And I would look forward to them so much.

spk_0 Yeah, you were just, you were the opposite of our previous question.

spk_0 Yeah, I'm only planning this game for the gatorade.

spk_0 Yeah, so you can get them at halftime because you know that's what they come with.

spk_0 I played almost every game and then my senior year was kind of sad.

spk_0 I was like, I studied abroad, I was pre-med and like field hockey was not the top of my career.

spk_0 Your ass was benched.

spk_0 And my ass was benched enough.

spk_0 But nothing as he was a toxic team environment.

spk_0 It was bad. No, I mean, I just sucked too.

spk_0 It was like, he was great.

spk_0 You were amazing. You were perfect.

spk_0 I, yeah, it was, it was a lot.

spk_0 But I did not get the gatorade bars at halftime because I wasn't playing and I was so sad.

spk_0 I was so sad.

spk_0 I mean, it feels like I'm gonna have my gatorade bar at halftime.

spk_0 Yeah, this clearly has a lot of room for birth.

spk_0 I've seen him soccer in football.

spk_0 I think that they're taking more gels during games.

spk_0 I think during basketball the most someone runs is like a 10k.

spk_0 So you're not looking at a huge amount of total volume of work,

spk_0 but it's a very high intensity.

spk_0 And as we've learned from past studies,

spk_0 muscle glycogen depletes very rapidly with high intensity.

spk_0 So if you measure an athlete at the beginning of the game and the end of the game,

spk_0 you'd probably see pretty big changes in local muscle glycogen,

spk_0 which would incentivize some quicker carbs because these athletes often have full meals

spk_0 before their game.

spk_0 So they're not depleted.

spk_0 I think it's more about small amounts.

spk_0 Instead of harnessing high, high carb,

spk_0 what you're harnessing is some of the studies that find you only need a small amount of carbs

spk_0 to keep most of the benefits there.

spk_0 And so trickling that in is probably enough and that could probably be liquid carbs instead of gels.

spk_0 And I think in team sports it's probably just as important for the brain and central nervous system

spk_0 and how that relates to muscle glycogen because you think about it and everything

spk_0 in within ball sports is split level second decisions.

spk_0 And if your brain is at all like cognitively sleepy, that becomes very hard.

spk_0 And so for me, like the gatorade bar at halftime was just as much for my muscles as it was for my brain.

spk_0 And yeah, then I missed it.

spk_0 My senior really said.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And now we get gatorade bars.

spk_0 Like three of them, three boxes a week.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 We're just making up for lost time.

spk_0 Yeah, the one thing that worries me about this is the feed is going to start partnering with like

spk_0 basketball podcasts and stuff.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And like, you know, right now I feel like we're a pretty big deal at the feed.

spk_0 You know, we push product and like we're all into it and we are so sold.

spk_0 But when the like LeBron starts coming, like we're going to be small beans.

spk_0 We're going to be that little fly on an elephant.

spk_0 Yeah, but like how much carbs do they need?

spk_0 That's the thing is is like our listeners need way more carbs.

spk_0 That's true.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And like rec basketball players, like they're pros.

spk_0 Who are they going to talk to?

spk_0 Like high school kids and college kids?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 But which yeah, but like there's so many more than our runners.

spk_0 Yeah, that's true.

spk_0 Yeah, and soccer players.

spk_0 Yeah, but they're not consuming carbs at like a huge level.

spk_0 So believe in our power.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 But long story short, if you play team sports out there, consider, you know,

spk_0 car availability and not like 90 grams an hour, I think more we're looking

spk_0 here at, you know, titrating in 20 to 40 grams.

spk_0 As you need and then having more at halftime.

spk_0 Yeah, actually we had a drink immediately after the game too called Carbo.

spk_0 And it was just like some really high calorie, very sweet,

spk_0 gatorade drink, but you only got it if you played.

spk_0 Oh, she was brutal.

spk_0 No.

spk_0 And if you didn't play, you also had to run after because they're like,

spk_0 you didn't do any training.

spk_0 Oh, wait, you just sat there, cheered and then had to run without your

spk_0 carb pro.

spk_0 Yeah, except I, I mean, I like the running half.

spk_0 Yeah, that was your favorite part.

spk_0 Most people didn't, I was like, Benchery is all I can do as someone's friends.

spk_0 So fun.

spk_0 Okay, next question I'm crosshitting.

spk_0 I have a question regarding balancing Zwift and running.

spk_0 I broke my toe a few weeks ago and have completely been off running.

spk_0 But this was at least for two at a time with buying a Zwift ride for winter.

spk_0 I subsequently got massively into Zwift racing joined a team and

spk_0 want to continue doing that regularly even once I'm back to running.

spk_0 My question is how best to balance this.

spk_0 As they are obviously far higher intensity than a Z2 cross training session,

spk_0 my heart rate gets up to 189 in those races at times.

spk_0 When running, I rarely see it get above 180.

spk_0 Can two races a week plus a running speed workout be too much?

spk_0 I see these races as great threshold sessions, usually 35 to 45 minutes long,

spk_0 which would it be unsustainable if I didn't run it?

spk_0 Yeah, we love Zwift races and training.

spk_0 I feel like they make a big difference.

spk_0 It is helpful to use them strategically, especially if you are working in run workouts

spk_0 because you could easily stack a lot of intensity even in a week.

spk_0 Yeah, and we're not talking threshold workouts.

spk_0 We're talking VO2 max plus workouts, getting some anaerobic efforts even in.

spk_0 And I think that that can be so effective.

spk_0 But if you're doing more than one of them a week,

spk_0 it starts to mess up the intensity distribution curve so much

spk_0 that it's going to be way too top-heavy unless you're doing huge volume.

spk_0 So I think you do two races a week if you're an incredibly high volume athlete.

spk_0 If we're talking 12 plus hours a week of training,

spk_0 if not, you're going to have your aerobic system degree over time.

spk_0 So I would do one race when you're going that hard.

spk_0 And you could do a secondary workout that's lower intensity that is true threshold,

spk_0 more moderate, or an uphill treadmill threshold session in the run or something like that.

spk_0 But if you're doing two anaerobic all-out efforts,

spk_0 you're probably going to start to see after three or four months,

spk_0 you just get slower at everything.

spk_0 And fatigued too.

spk_0 And honestly, like, probably mentally dreading these efforts too,

spk_0 because it can become a lot to put out power outputs like this.

spk_0 No, it's a video game.

spk_0 Yeah, you're like, no.

spk_0 You never get sick of video games.

spk_0 You aren't as so superpowers.

spk_0 You've never done this with trace.

spk_0 I need to.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 You would love it.

spk_0 It would activate your crushing bitches knob.

spk_0 It would be so fun.

spk_0 Your arousal level would be 7,000.

spk_0 It probably would.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 Oh my god.

spk_0 Sitting on a bike seat and bike.

spk_0 Oh my god.

spk_0 And a race.

spk_0 And people to try to beat.

spk_0 This would be the best thing in the world.

spk_0 It would be great.

spk_0 What do we need to with, though?

spk_0 Because right now we're setting up at 8500 feet in your parent's house.

spk_0 That is high.

spk_0 How do you, I mean, you're going to get smoked

spk_0 on Zwift.

spk_0 That's a huge power conversion.

spk_0 Can we factor that into Zwift?

spk_0 I just do lower like.

spk_0 Yeah, just race a D.

spk_0 Just start out.

spk_0 I mean, that's the great thing about Zwift racing

spk_0 for anybody that's considering this.

spk_0 Is it has all levels?

spk_0 So my dad in his 70s could do Zwift racing.

spk_0 And I've been trying to push him towards it.

spk_0 He would love it.

spk_0 As soon as we get him on the bike, he's going to be hooked.

spk_0 Yeah, he was a serious bike racer when I was younger.

spk_0 And he's just gone the way from that type of mindset.

spk_0 Because he doesn't want to bike race anymore.

spk_0 And he can only do so many running races

spk_0 without breaking down.

spk_0 And even when he has, he's had things like severe blood clots

spk_0 after a race he didn't moab.

spk_0 So he's just more hesitant for it all.

spk_0 I'm like, dude, you should be Zwift racing.

spk_0 You would love it.

spk_0 And you don't, you know, you can be at whatever level

spk_0 you really want to be and get the workout you want to get

spk_0 based on the course.

spk_0 So I think if you're considering this in winter,

spk_0 check out the Zwift ride.

spk_0 Did you tell me it was really cheap the other day?

spk_0 It dropped in price.

spk_0 It will end today as we're reporting this.

spk_0 Shoot, it's Monday.

spk_0 Yeah, we should put out a PSA on Patreon.

spk_0 Oh, we shouldn't.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 $999 right now.

spk_0 Which is insane.

spk_0 He's seen.

spk_0 This is like for $999, it's like a steel.

spk_0

spk_0 And theoretically, we're not sponsored by them.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Well, Wahoo is supposed to think it's like Wahoo

spk_0 than not.

spk_0 It's not a sponsorship like our other deals.

spk_0 So Wahoo needs to do is actually sponsor us.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 If anybody who watches this,

spk_0 this is, I can't, I'm so bad at negotiating for myself.

spk_0 But on the podcast, I have courage here.

spk_0 It's actually like actually romantic.

spk_0 The song that Taylor Swift made about Charlie at CX.

spk_0 The first line is, I've heard you talking about me

spk_0 when the cocaine makes you courageous.

spk_0 The podcast for me is like cocaine is for Charlie XX

spk_0 according to Taylor Swift.

spk_0 Or cappiness for low carb runners.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0

spk_0 That's how you brought it back.

spk_0 Is that an okay reference?

spk_0 That's a great reference.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 I'm feeling a little bit too excited.

spk_0 I'm very excited.

spk_0 You're like, I'm very activated.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 On to a question about carbs per hour.

spk_0 Before we do that,

spk_0 hey, give the podcast five stars.

spk_0 Click follow wherever you listen.

spk_0 Help other people find it.

spk_0 And listen to always go down a little bit

spk_0 in winter or two.

spk_0 So we're coming up on that now.

spk_0 So if you can give us a little push,

spk_0 really goes a long way.

spk_0 What do you think that is?

spk_0 Is that because running season kind of fluctuates?

spk_0 Or people are doing fewer long runs?

spk_0 Like what's your theory there?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Perhaps.

spk_0 I wonder if other podcasts are seasonal at all.

spk_0 Like that are unrelated to athletics.

spk_0 Like for the feed, for example,

spk_0 they don't sell nearly as much in winter,

spk_0 which makes sense.

spk_0 My guess is that kind of goes for all running media

spk_0 to a certain extent.

spk_0 And for us, we've been able to weather the storm

spk_0 because historically,

spk_0 we've had big things happen in winter.

spk_0 Like last year,

spk_0 Rich Roll happened in winter,

spk_0 which was a huge boost.

spk_0 And so everybody who came here from that, thank you.

spk_0 But I feel like there's more people out there

spk_0 who are our people who would listen to this podcast

spk_0 and be into it if they knew about it.

spk_0 So maybe the better way to do it is tell a friend

spk_0 that you think might be into it.

spk_0 Maybe a better way to do it is for you

spk_0 to actually wear super shoes in the desert.

spk_0 To wear super shoes in the, why would that do it?

spk_0 Three weeks.

spk_0 Why would that do anything?

spk_0 We give us a good bump.

spk_0 Oh, give us a bump.

spk_0 That business.

spk_0 When my shoes break.

spk_0 And by the worm.

spk_0 It's true.

spk_0 I guess Western States was a bump from failure.

spk_0 Leadville was actually a much smaller bump this year

spk_0 from success.

spk_0 Whereas last year's Leadville was big.

spk_0 Western States was bigger.

spk_0 Maybe what we've learned is that failure is the way to go.

spk_0 Or you just need to go do something iconic at Havaleena.

spk_0 Oh, it's funny.

spk_0 Because we're running like the worm.

spk_0 Yeah, anything.

spk_0 Yeah, just go have like a wild outfit.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Put yourself out there.

spk_0 Some good orange shorts.

spk_0 You have to have some idea.

spk_0 What would it be iconic that would lead to more listeners

spk_0 the next day?

spk_0 To be show aroused by your super shoes in the orange shorts.

spk_0 You have to bring more listeners in.

spk_0

spk_0 Like we want to know what happened here.

spk_0 Yeah, I think a metaphorical car wreck could probably drive some listeners.

spk_0 Okay, a question on Car's Rower.

spk_0 How high do you push your car's power?

spk_0 Currently, I'm at 130 grams on the bike.

spk_0 And that seems to be fine.

spk_0 I use T.L. wind, science,

spk_0 and sport, data, fuel, etc.

spk_0 Should I keep pushing it higher?

spk_0 For context, I'm a larger person.

spk_0 And do do high power on the bike in triathlon?

spk_0 And they're putting out pretty substantial power on the bike.

spk_0 Yeah, 300 plus watts consistently in these events.

spk_0 Curious to hear what you told this person.

spk_0 Actually, I would say that 130 to me is like the upper end of experimentation

spk_0 without being at the pro level and having your carbrates oxidized.

spk_0 And like, you know, doing.

spk_0 Yeah, doing like oxidized.

spk_0 Yeah, you know what I was going for that.

spk_0 I got to measure your oxidation rate.

spk_0 It's better way to say that.

spk_0 And I feel like otherwise like the experimentation there,

spk_0 I think becomes a little bit risky,

spk_0 but metaphorically and performance wise.

spk_0 And I think the athletes that are hitting like 180 in the world of Iron Man

spk_0 have all had a testing done.

spk_0 All a testing done are freakishly powerful.

spk_0 Like their raw power outputs are huge across swim bike and run.

spk_0 And you know, we reach a point.

spk_0 It's like, are we starting to play with fire?

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 Maybe I'm coming.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, at some point we are.

spk_0 Yeah, maybe I'm becoming one of those old fogies where,

spk_0 you know, like they're all like,

spk_0 oh, well, if you go over 60 grams per hour,

spk_0 you're going to like,

spk_0 shit out diabetes or something like that.

spk_0 And maybe because for me,

spk_0 I've kind of found my upper limit at like 141.50.

spk_0 Once I start hearing people push that,

spk_0 I'm like, oh, don't be careful.

spk_0 Have you actually pushed that though?

spk_0 I don't think you actually tried consuming.

spk_0 I'm ready.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I haven't gone higher.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So the question becomes like,

spk_0 is there a time in a place for it?

spk_0 I don't think so.

spk_0 Maybe it's just because I'm scared, you know,

spk_0 and I don't do this in training very often.

spk_0 I very rarely push above 120 in training,

spk_0 other than when I'm doing GI training.

spk_0 We actually wrote an article on Patreon

spk_0 about using your taper window for GI training

spk_0 that gets into how exactly I do this.

spk_0 But yeah, I think I really get scared sometimes

spk_0 when people hear anecdotes from outliers.

spk_0 And the one place I am in outlier

spk_0 might be in this GI system,

spk_0 carbohydrates per hour framework

spk_0 and then apply it to themselves.

spk_0 So for this athlete, sounds great to me.

spk_0 I think you're getting a lot of benefits at 130.

spk_0 More is not more.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Necessarily.

spk_0 There's some limitation there.

spk_0 So be careful.

spk_0 High carb doesn't mean high carb all the time.

spk_0 And you kind of have to listen to your body

spk_0 more than you listen to anecdotes.

spk_0 And who knows, maybe in the future,

spk_0 everybody's going to be doing 200

spk_0 when Chastity BG help tells them to.

spk_0 200.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 That's a lot of work.

spk_0 It's what I really like food.

spk_0 And I really like the, you know,

spk_0 beta fuel with electrolytes.

spk_0 I can't imagine taking 200 grams.

spk_0 Oh, yeah, that's a lot of help.

spk_0 Do you think that world's coming?

spk_0 No.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I mean, I think unless we figure out

spk_0 some kind of supplement that like

spk_0 enhances carboxidation rates,

spk_0 I don't think so.

spk_0 But why be the new future?

spk_0 Yeah, I think it's a brave new world.

spk_0 We don't know still everything's an experiment.

spk_0 But if you're going over, let's say,

spk_0 100, you're already entering kind of

spk_0 rarefied error, not that many people are doing that.

spk_0 So be cautious as you move up and do it in stepwise fashion

spk_0 and only on hard days with high output.

spk_0 Okay, next question on shoes.

spk_0 Like David, I think I'm addicted to plates a bit.

spk_0 Uh, these are shoe plates, not dinner plates.

spk_0 Uh, and recently brought the Nike Zoom Files,

spk_0 which are advertised as a quote super trainer.

spk_0 I'm curious your thoughts on these,

spk_0 because they still have a carbon plate.

spk_0 So I'm worried doing harm and running in these

spk_0 in everyday and training.

spk_0 I can't find a non-plated shoe.

spk_0 I like anymore.

spk_0 No.

spk_0 My concerns are a bit heightened,

spk_0 because I had been noticing some knee soreness

spk_0 I wasn't used to.

spk_0 But I was ramping up mileage at the same time,

spk_0 and I'm also 35.

spk_0 Am I just getting old?

spk_0 I can take the truth.

spk_0 I'm curious if it is okay to keep wearing the Zoom Files for trading,

spk_0 or did I fall into a marketing trap?

spk_0 On the same note, would you say racing in super shoes can be used

spk_0 as, or racing super shoes can be used as trainers

spk_0 when they reach, say, 150 to 200 miles,

spk_0 or those plates still potentially harmful?

spk_0 I feel like we need a lot more research coming out about this,

spk_0 about like, you know, doing a bulk of your training,

spk_0 especially for higher mileage athletes in plated shoes.

spk_0 I think my brain just keeps going to like nylon plated shoes.

spk_0 Or great.

spk_0 I think it's okay for some of us.

spk_0 It's a big deal though.

spk_0 What's the difference between carbon and nylon really?

spk_0 Yeah. I mean, I do think there's a little bit more

spk_0 of perhaps you're running faster in carbon plated shoes.

spk_0 Yeah, but they're designed similarly.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I guess my thing is like,

spk_0 we're not to be afraid of plates.

spk_0 Yes, they do transition some of the stress on the body.

spk_0 And I think if you have specific injuries,

spk_0 like Achilles injuries, great example,

spk_0 or like foot-based injuries,

spk_0 to be very careful with how you're working.

spk_0 And if you're an injury prone athlete in general,

spk_0 like you are injured in an injury resilient,

spk_0 brontosaurus, like, and you're just taking your plate knowledge

spk_0 with that injury resilience in, like, you know,

spk_0 your plate notch for yourself with that injury resilience in mind.

spk_0 And so I think that's an important point.

spk_0 And I still have limitations, right?

spk_0 Which gets to the question of the listener.

spk_0 I would be very careful about Zoom flies every day.

spk_0 I actually, I put the Zoom flies on,

spk_0 and I'm like, I should just wear the vapor fly.

spk_0 Why would I wear the Zoom fly?

spk_0 Well, that's different, right?

spk_0 It's super chin versus surpeshoe.

spk_0 The foam itself and those vapor fly

spk_0 will degrade much quicker.

spk_0 And that shoe will be like running on a piece of cardboard

spk_0 pretty quickly.

spk_0 But the Zoom flies aren't even legal for competition

spk_0 because their stack height is so high.

spk_0 And so while I do wear super trainers,

spk_0 I'm very rarely wearing high, super high stack I choose.

spk_0 We went to the running shoe store,

spk_0 and there I tried on the mock X3.

spk_0 Because the mock X, it's all gone.

spk_0 I use my last pair, and I'm really sad.

spk_0 But Hoka totally changed the shoe.

spk_0 And as I wore it, I'm like,

spk_0 this shoe is comfortable in the store.

spk_0 But I think there's a slippery slope

spk_0 when you start to wear this huge stack height shoe, which is-

spk_0 It was a chunker.

spk_0 It is such a chunker.

spk_0 It was, they increased the chunk factor out of that shoe by 50%.

spk_0 Yeah, if you're into chunky shoes,

spk_0 your rouse of factor is gonna be 4,000.

spk_0 It is insane.

spk_0 And like, I do wanna have chunk limitations for myself.

spk_0 So, because at a certain point,

spk_0 maybe you are trying to change running mechanics.

spk_0 And that's not what I wanna do.

spk_0 I wanna use the plate and have like a form

spk_0 that I could still hop down to minimal shoes.

spk_0 And I still have good mechanics.

spk_0 And I still have good lower leg strength.

spk_0 So, I think they come in different varieties.

spk_0 Zoom-Five might be pushing the limits,

spk_0 but like high carb a place where we just don't know

spk_0 what's happening at the margins.

spk_0 Okay, my favorite super trainer is the Endorphin Speed.

spk_0 Yeah, it's great.

spk_0 There's the Endorphin Speed Pro,

spk_0 which is a more advanced version of that.

spk_0 But I just wear the regular Endorphin Speed.

spk_0 And I'd be comfortable.

spk_0 Honestly, I'd be comfortable racing Havaleena in it.

spk_0 Like, I feel like it's a very stable shoe.

spk_0 It doesn't collect rocks too easily.

spk_0 And I could run a lot of miles in it.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 I mean, I'm getting a pair.

spk_0 So maybe that'll be my shoe.

spk_0 Ooh, do you think it's faster though than the ASU?

spk_0 Good question.

spk_0 Yeah, I actually think there's probably similar.

spk_0 Probably similar.

spk_0 Yeah, the ASU, like super trainer style.

spk_0 Exactly.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Good point.

spk_0 So I guess I won't.

spk_0 But I have to go through my shoe existential crisis

spk_0 before I can race.

spk_0 Every race.

spk_0 Do you want to rapid fire some now?

spk_0 Let's do it.

spk_0 Right, rapid fire time.

spk_0 I think we might have four left.

spk_0 My partner and I are both training for big races this fall.

spk_0 Yesterday, he said, I don't think I'll sign up

spk_0 for a race next summer because this training plan

spk_0 has stopped me from doing things that I love.

spk_0 Like hiking 14 years here in Colorado or fly fishing.

spk_0 We both love running.

spk_0 But with work during the week, typically our weekends

spk_0 are reserved for long runs.

spk_0 So there's a tradeoff of not doing some of our hobbies.

spk_0 Do you have any advice on how to have more balance?

spk_0 I'd love to do some big races next year,

spk_0 but also want to join my partner in his adventures.

spk_0 Just following a training plan,

spk_0 inherently come with these sacrifices.

spk_0 Thank you.

spk_0 I think you can make it work.

spk_0 Actually, do a Saturday long run and a Sunday go,

spk_0 enjoy hiking a 14 year, which actually would be great

spk_0 training.

spk_0 Time on feet, time up and out.

spk_0 So you'd or go fly fishing.

spk_0 Maybe not great training, but for vibes.

spk_0 For vibes. Yeah, alternate days.

spk_0 One day doing fun things, another day doing, you know,

spk_0 maybe your specific training plan

spk_0 and just incorporate more adventure into your training plans.

spk_0 Maybe the coolest part about traveling

spk_0 is none of this needs to be that focused.

spk_0 Like you can have fun, listen to your body, enjoy it,

spk_0 and just remember life is training too.

spk_0 It is not mileage, it is not done on paper,

spk_0 it is not an Excel spreadsheet.

spk_0 And thank God for that because it allows us to go fly fishing.

spk_0 It is.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 Actually, every time we drive up the Boulder County

spk_0 and I see someone fly fishing, I mean, just kind of like,

spk_0 one, it looks beautiful and lovely,

spk_0 but I'm also kind of like, why?

spk_0 Well, this is why I know I need to work on my mind for this.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 I really, really need to get a practice of meditation

spk_0 because I see fly fishing and I'm like,

spk_0 booring, I want to read about Taylor Swift on Twitter.

spk_0 I'm just kidding, but I am kind of serious at the same time.

spk_0 Whenever I see the fly fishing waiters,

spk_0 I just want to wear them and go like creaking,

spk_0 just like walk all the way up the creek.

spk_0 Instead of actually fishing,

spk_0 I'm like, we could just go explore the creek.

spk_0 I such great memories as a kid going creaking

spk_0 and I'm like, that's all I want to do.

spk_0 Okay, Max Hartray question.

spk_0 I have a question.

spk_0 I ran a half marathon last October

spk_0 with an estimated max heart rate of 191.

spk_0 Over the last year, I trained for and completed a road marathon.

spk_0 Since then, I've got my average miles to around,

spk_0 from two around 30 over the last four to six weeks.

spk_0 During that time, my estimated max heart rate

spk_0 has dropped to 186 as of this morning.

spk_0 While I know the Garmin estimation is non-tarot,

spk_0 tirely accurate, it's odd that I'm in the best shape

spk_0 of my life ever and it's telling me my top end is lower.

spk_0 Can you explain?

spk_0 Yeah, I think this is just weird data.

spk_0 I wrote about this all on Patreon actually,

spk_0 and did a heart rate training 101.

spk_0 But this is just a reminder that max heart rate goes down

spk_0 as you get fitter.

spk_0 It is higher at baseline because your cardiac output is lower

spk_0 in the demand musculally is so much higher

spk_0 that you can push very much harder relative

spk_0 to your threshold, be your threshold is low.

spk_0 So this is totally normal.

spk_0 Your max heart rate's gonna go down as you get fitter,

spk_0 not just over time as you age,

spk_0 but mine has dropped maybe 10 beats per minute,

spk_0 even though my threshold heart rate has barely budged.

spk_0 And I also think too, if you're just getting these metrics

spk_0 from your Garmin watch too,

spk_0 and you're not specifically going out and trying

spk_0 to hit your max heart rate in an FTP test

spk_0 or some kind of hard effort,

spk_0 you also just don't know what kind of data you're getting either.

spk_0 I'm gonna call you Strava's lawyers,

spk_0 because you're shitting on Garmin.

spk_0 I know I was like, we're gonna shit on Garmin over here.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, but like...

spk_0 Also, I mean, have you ever seen,

spk_0 I, with my chorus arm,

spk_0 and sometimes I finish runs, and it's like,

spk_0 new max heart rate, 196,

spk_0 and I was like, I'll never hit 196 ever during this run.

spk_0 What is wrong, you know, yeah.

spk_0 It's just similar things to me.

spk_0 Maybe the biggest hot take of all,

spk_0 max heart rate is a bad way to use heart rate.

spk_0 Oh, for sure.

spk_0 And a lot of people use it,

spk_0 and a lot of great physiologists use it.

spk_0 I'm like, maybe they're not real athletes themselves

spk_0 to like understand,

spk_0 but your true max heart rate is going to vary so much on the day

spk_0 that you're getting a random number generator,

spk_0 even if you do a perfectly exhausting session.

spk_0 Like if I nail it as when I'm rested,

spk_0 or when I've been sick recently,

spk_0 I can push a high heart rate that,

spk_0 if I set my zones based on it would be total bullshit.

spk_0 But now that I'm fit, my max is lower,

spk_0 and it's gonna set weird zones for me.

spk_0 Do not set your zones based on max heart rate.

spk_0 It is not a good way to do it.

spk_0 I sure agree with it, don't just get COVID

spk_0 and get my heart rate to like 180.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Like, look at my max heart rate, it's so high.

spk_0 I'm just doing a threshold workout.

spk_0 It's so true.

spk_0 My max heart rate's 180.

spk_0 That's so true.

spk_0 Okay, we're not really rapid firing these, but close enough.

spk_0 Next one on grade.

spk_0 Okay, I have a stupid question for you guys.

spk_0 How do you determine grade when running outside?

spk_0 I'm starting your power building plan,

spk_0 and I'm planning out some routes for runs and hill strides,

spk_0 and I realize I have no fucking clue

spk_0 what six to 10% grade is,

spk_0 which is noted in that training plan.

spk_0 I've looked at previous run routes

spk_0 and it lists elevation on my chorus and straw the app,

spk_0 but I don't know how to turn that into grade.

spk_0 I'm slightly embarrassed that I've listened to all of your podcast

spk_0 and subscribed to Patreon,

spk_0 consider myself a troll runner,

spk_0 and just now asking this dumb question.

spk_0 Yeah, you can pretty easily scroll and straw that and find it.

spk_0 Is that it?

spk_0 Is that a premium feature though?

spk_0 You can actually scroll across and it just tells you

spk_0 the grade at literally every point within your run.

spk_0 Well, I'm biased because I give straw that

spk_0 like my social security number,

spk_0 or things credit card or everything else.

spk_0 But I think where this is a really smart question

spk_0 is just looking at a hill, it is hard to estimate.

spk_0 Oh, it's so hard, yeah.

spk_0 For most people, even when you do this for a living,

spk_0 so don't beat yourself up there.

spk_0 Great estimations at baseline,

spk_0 you can just do if you know the elevation change,

spk_0 it's a simple calculation of elevation change

spk_0 over distance, which is how like,

spk_0 you can do it on the treadmill,

spk_0 even if you don't have all of the numbers adding up.

spk_0 But long story short, you kind of just get the feel for it.

spk_0 Like, you know, a 6% grade is like kind of shallow,

spk_0 but some climbing, a 2% grade is like gradual,

spk_0 a 10% grade is kind of steep,

spk_0 and a 15% grade makes you want to die.

spk_0 Yeah, a 2% grade is actually douche grade.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 You're running up it and you're like,

spk_0 am I running up?

spk_0 No, that's true.

spk_0 I think that's true.

spk_0 I think douche grade has different definitions than that.

spk_0 I think, well, douche grade for me,

spk_0 I'll give it my definition.

spk_0 I say it's a SkiI.

spk_0 OK.

spk_0 We want to find out what's,

spk_0 because like a lot of people say it's more like 8% grade.

spk_0 8%?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 What is douche grade?

spk_0 It's using ultra running.

spk_0 Ask them what the exact gradient is.

spk_0 Percent.

spk_0 And now we're finding out the exact answer.

spk_0 5.6%.

spk_0 Oh.

spk_0 A recent trail conference in Italy

spk_0 placed douche grade at about 5.6%.

spk_0 So it's between our two aspects.

spk_0 Right between us.

spk_0 Perfect.

spk_0 Great.

spk_0 Actually, actually related to this grade question,

spk_0 UTMB maps, show things in kilometers

spk_0 and elevation change in meters.

spk_0 Did it that you can change that to feet and miles?

spk_0 Oh, no.

spk_0

spk_0 It's great.

spk_0 One of my athletes told me that.

spk_0 And I'm like, this is a great realization.

spk_0 Thank God.

spk_0 I never have to learn what the rest of the world does.

spk_0 I can just be in my little bubble.

spk_0 And our little being miles bubble.

spk_0 OK, last question.

spk_0 Question about ketones.

spk_0 I recently came across a dozen samples of ketone IQ.

spk_0 So I figured it would be a good time to try it

spk_0 as an intervention.

spk_0 I've been trying to replicate what David says

spk_0 about using them a few times a week

spk_0 and especially on harder days and with carbs.

spk_0 Do you think there's any benefit to using ketones

spk_0 on rest days when passive heat is incorporated?

spk_0 Sunday is my rest day, but I still

spk_0 get some passive heat in the form of a hot bath.

spk_0 But I'm just curious if you think there

spk_0 would be any benefit to using ketones on this day as well.

spk_0 Curious your take.

spk_0 I mean, we're still learning a lot about ketones.

spk_0 That's like we know.

spk_0 It's really hard to know.

spk_0 Honestly, like, cost wise.

spk_0 I'm like, just see them on your workout and long run days.

spk_0 It feels like a simpler way to do it.

spk_0 But we don't know.

spk_0 We don't know.

spk_0 We don't know much about ketones.

spk_0 Post-exercises ketones might have some recovery benefit

spk_0 for some people.

spk_0 But we need way more studies to even know

spk_0 if there are some people that would be negative responders

spk_0 or if we're just catching different things

spk_0 when we think we're catching ketone response.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 I take it the day before my race is even after training

spk_0 that day.

spk_0 I don't know why it is, but I've had good success

spk_0 with it sometimes.

spk_0 I've also failed with it.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 So one story short with ketones is who knows?

spk_0 I like the green apple ketone IQ flavor.

spk_0 Actually, so maybe you're going to do a hot tub here

spk_0 in a second on our rest.

spk_0 I may be able to take it after.

spk_0 Give it a try.

spk_0 That's true.

spk_0 Why not?

spk_0 Well, speaking of the feed, if you want to experiment with this,

spk_0 we just use the basic bit to ketone IQ,

spk_0 which is not the ketone ester studied.

spk_0 But the funny part is we got ketone ester sent to us.

spk_0 And I took them.

spk_0 And did we, you took them?

spk_0 I took them one day and some more way

spk_0 as I would ketone IQ because I wanted to experiment.

spk_0 And my numbers overnight were actually poor.

spk_0 As if my body was much more stressed.

spk_0 But that could be a lot of different things.

spk_0 Could be a million different things.

spk_0

spk_0 But because I found something that might work for me,

spk_0 even though it's not the studied version,

spk_0 I'm like, oh, well, maybe I should stick with what I do.

spk_0 You know, kind of the superstition element of it.

spk_0 Was it the very poor night where you're like, am I dying?

spk_0 I mean, I don't know if I said, am I dying.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Did I?

spk_0 I think you were like, what illness do I have today?

spk_0 Okay, I heard you said that.

spk_0 That I didn't go for it.

spk_0 Okay, on to us, in our corner,

spk_0 before that, to be of anything to talk about.

spk_0 John G.

spk_0 We fucking love John G.

spk_0 It is amazing how cool that company is.

spk_0 Like when you support John G,

spk_0 you're supporting some of the best people on the planet.

spk_0 Like we talked to one of the executives last week.

spk_0 And they're just like, they are the sole legit.

spk_0 And they just want to support people so hard

spk_0 that they do not care if they spend, you know, thousands of dollars

spk_0 helping like low income athletes or anything like that.

spk_0 They are just all about it.

spk_0 Even if they get no return, they are the coolest company.

spk_0 And they get it too.

spk_0 I feel like in terms of like what Tronors need

spk_0 in like, you know, how we think about running

spk_0 and just like how they support the environment and causes.

spk_0 Did you see the Revy Pack, they sent,

spk_0 that I've been playing around with.

spk_0 It's an 18 liter commuter pack.

spk_0 It's amazing.

spk_0 It's got a laptop commuter pack.

spk_0

spk_0 Yes, you want a commuter pack.

spk_0 Go to John G, J-A-N-J-I.com.

spk_0 It's called the Revy Pack.

spk_0 Revy.

spk_0 And one, it's beautiful.

spk_0 It just looks good.

spk_0 But it brings me back to the days that you used to commute

spk_0 to law school with just like a Jansport backpack

spk_0 running with it.

spk_0 What you would have done for this commuter pack.

spk_0 Megan, I am such...

spk_0 Yeah, you have like cans of beans in there.

spk_0 And you're a computer and all your law school books,

spk_0 they have like shoe compartments within the Revy Pack.

spk_0 And you could have put the cans of beans in there.

spk_0 And to run with it, I had to have one hand on the strap

spk_0 and often both hands on the strap

spk_0 to hold it against my back.

spk_0 Like a little kid going to school.

spk_0 And I would run eight miles like this.

spk_0 Yeah, and this has like a two buckle system

spk_0 so you can actually latch it down.

spk_0 This would have changed your life.

spk_0 If you had showed me at 20 to 22,

spk_0 where my life is at 37 with like company sending stuff,

spk_0 I would have been a rousal score like two million.

spk_0 Like I am such a piece of shit at baseline.

spk_0 And I have gotten like some polish on my shit.

spk_0 You've really polished your clothes right now.

spk_0 You have some like tie-dye going on there.

spk_0 Yeah, you did ask what the fuck is on your Jansport

spk_0 straight before your clothes.

spk_0 Yeah, it was like where did that come from?

spk_0 But you have stepped up.

spk_0 Yeah, is the Jansky multi-short to seven inch.

spk_0 It's the green shorts that you've seen.

spk_0 They are so fun.

spk_0 So J-A-N-J-I dot com to seven inch multi-short.

spk_0 And I order a half, like it's a little size up.

spk_0 Like so I generally meet you for my shorts,

spk_0 whereas I might be a small in shirts.

spk_0 So that would be my suggestions.

spk_0 Do that with this pair of shorts.

spk_0 And they are so comfortable to wear around the house.

spk_0 I love them.

spk_0 Okay, also last little Jansky hack.

spk_0 They have a past seasons deal thing on their website

spk_0 that sometimes you can miss and there are good sales in there.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Yes, I think you can find some like colorways and designs

spk_0 to either you're like, I didn't know they had that last year.

spk_0 So support Jansky.

spk_0 And now we're on the listener corner.

spk_0 Here it is.

spk_0 This needs some backstory.

spk_0 Last week we entered this phase where our current nanny,

spk_0 the Swapar operations manager, Caitlin,

spk_0 she's leaving us to move to the mountains to Silverton

spk_0 and we're so proud of her and so happy.

spk_0 But we panicked because she's been so instrumental

spk_0 into what we've done the last two and a half years.

spk_0 She's been with us for two and a half years

spk_0 and like seen the growth of Leo and like all these birds

spk_0 and everything, it's been wild.

spk_0 Yeah, it's been so huge.

spk_0 And we're like, what are we going to do?

spk_0 And so we're like, you know what?

spk_0 We're going to go to Patreon.

spk_0 And so we posted this on Patreon

spk_0 and got the funniest responses back

spk_0 and also so many genuine ones.

spk_0 It's incredible.

spk_0 We got so many amazing people.

spk_0 I'm like, how are we actually going to choose an inny?

spk_0 Oh, it's so hard.

spk_0 And we're actually just going to need like a commune.

spk_0 I'm like, I'm a fan of this.

spk_0 I mean, we love you all.

spk_0 We should just hang out in a house.

spk_0 Yeah, seriously, I just want to be friends with everybody.

spk_0 But the best comment of all was this one.

spk_0 I have a job, a family and no interest in this job.

spk_0 Why do I want it so bad?

spk_0 Damn it.

spk_0 So yeah, we just love you all.

spk_0 It's very cool to reflect on, you know,

spk_0 people see us in the world making our bad jokes, like, you know,

spk_0 presenting in such a out there way

spk_0 and step up with like this love.

spk_0 And so we just hope to pay it forward and like, you know,

spk_0 sure that love with the world.

spk_0 So thank you.

spk_0 Is there an opportunity here to like, it would be fun

spk_0 at some point just to do like a Patreon camp?

spk_0 Oh, I can't. Yeah.

spk_0 Yeah, and hang out with a bunch of people.

spk_0 You're like, Megan, that's a lot of logistics.

spk_0 Yeah, you're going to organize that.

spk_0 Yeah, we can maybe

spk_0 are someone who has just lost a lot of recent work and I was like,

spk_0 but it would be really cool.

spk_0 Like, there's just so many great people on Patreon.

spk_0 And I'm kind of like, I want to meet more of them in person.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I've been talking to all these people that sent us like resume.

spk_0 So like, these people are great.

spk_0 Yeah, there's so many amazing people out there.

spk_0 And maybe the biggest message, like, the world is kind of dark

spk_0 and scary right now.

spk_0 You know, we've decided to make the podcast as joyful as possible

spk_0 because people need a break.

spk_0 But always key into what humans actually are.

spk_0 You know, and like you can even talking about something

spk_0 joking, like Taylor Swift criticism or anything like that.

spk_0 You're reading and kind of get jaded about what people are.

spk_0 But then in person or whenever you actually meet someone,

spk_0 including someone that disagrees with you on fundamental principles

spk_0 that, you know, you feel are so important on the internet,

spk_0 there's like, people are so cool.

spk_0 Like in so interesting and nuanced and multifaceted

spk_0 and the internet is tearing us the fuck apart.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And it's so sad.

spk_0 But always key into that.

spk_0 And so like when you tell someone on the trails,

spk_0 you're awesome or you are love them.

spk_0 Know that they are probably facing that same existential dread.

spk_0 You are on like a daily basis.

spk_0 And all we can do really in that context is just like to reach out

spk_0 and aggressively share love because there's so much noise

spk_0 coming in the other direction.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 What do you think is the arousal score of the internet right now?

spk_0 Oh, like a two.

spk_0 And you know, no, no, no.

spk_0 You think it's high anger isn't a rousing emotion.

spk_0 Not for me.

spk_0 Maybe that's why I'm not on the internet.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 Although Megan, what is like, I mean, it's eight days in the short

spk_0 trim little drips of it.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 But arousal on the long term, that's like that's going to be love

spk_0 and good vibes.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Why me?

spk_0 I agree.

spk_0 Obviously.

spk_0 But like I don't think that's any short term.

spk_0 Maybe I should microdose the internet.

spk_0 I love that.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 That happens.

spk_0 Oh my God.

spk_0 You know what I should do is show you like little doses of the internet

spk_0 just to get you like, I'm going to fucking kill somebody.

spk_0 It's actually a little too far.

spk_0 Should we edit that out too much around?

spk_0 I don't know what we've got.

spk_0 Maybe instead of doing that, just do the military gum.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 I'm going to fucking sue somebody.

spk_0 Perfect.

spk_0 We have you all.

spk_0 How's that?

279. Strava v. Garmin Lawsuit, Uphill Treadmill Threshold, New Study on Low Carb v. High Carb (and Caffeine), and Max Heart Rate Problems!

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