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276: Missing Church. Finding Church. Leaving Church. – RTC On The Road
In this episode of RTC On The Road, hosts Mark and Fowler dive into the complexities of church attendance, addressing listener questions about when to leave or stay at a church, navigating differing b...
276: Missing Church. Finding Church. Leaving Church. – RTC On The Road
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Interactive Transcript
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What's up, Chris?
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The podcast where we drink coffee and have real conversations on faith, culture and society.
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This is one of your host, Mark Hyde.
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And today, again, we're going back RTC on the road.
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Back in the summer, we had the opportunity to go to Revive Fest where we were able to
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MC the event.
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We were able to teach a workshop, which you guys heard here just a couple of weeks ago,
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and also got to meet so many of you folks in person.
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And that was the biggest highlight for us at least of that weekend.
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But we wanted to make sure we took advantage of the time.
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And so on the way home, folder and I decided to record some more episodes in the car.
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And so for this episode and the following episode, you're going to hear our thoughts
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as we were driving back home each night from Revive Fest.
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And this specific episode has a theme all around it based off of questions that you guys
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have asked us, primarily revolving around the church.
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So things, for example, of when should you leave a church?
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When should you stay at the church?
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What should you do if your spouse doesn't want to go to church with you?
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Or maybe if your spouse wants to go to a different church, and then even the bigger dilemma
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of when life gets in the way of Sunday morning, how should you respond to that?
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So in this conversation, we answer all these types of questions and more in this conversation.
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And what's really funny is, I don't think it's this episode where we get pulled over.
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I think it's this one where we almost hit a deer on the way home.
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So it's always a party with us here in RTC land.
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But just like always, if you are new to the show, make sure you check out our online Facebook
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community where there are almost 2,500 other Christians who are in some way shape or form
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going through their spiritual journey.
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And I can guarantee that if you feel alone and you're wondering, hey, is there someone
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else out there like me who's dealing with this?
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The answer is yes.
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And it can be found in the Facebook group.
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If you've been here for a long time or if you are a rewinder or now the new term inside
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of the group is the rewinders as you're going through your third time, which I think is
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just absolutely incredible.
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We love you guys.
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We are so thankful for you as well.
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Make sure you leave a rating review anywhere podcast can be found.
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But get your coffee.
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I got mine here right now.
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Of course, it's in my beautiful, wonderful Notre Dame fight and Irish mug because, yeah,
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I mean, we're two and two right now and we're college playoff.
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That's what we going to do right now.
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So I got my coffee here.
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I hope you grab your coffee and I'll turn it over to us in the car.
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Hey, hey, what is up RTC guys going on?
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We are pooped.
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We are.
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We're living our best right now.
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It's about 10.50 at night.
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We're slotted to be home right around midnight and we got to be back tomorrow by like now
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that we don't have to open the tent.
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I don't think we really have to be there.
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Yes, guys, we hooked up this year.
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I think I'm losing my voice a little bit.
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But we did not have to use our own tent.
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No, we had a tent provided for us, which is a huge, huge, gosh, you guys don't even know.
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It definitely lessened the setup time.
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And even just take down because like, so the way it always works right guys, we get to
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the campgrounds, well, let's let's back up.
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We always get the campground.
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We drop off our stuff.
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We set up our tent.
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That right things like, you know, about an hour ago or stuff set up.
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Yeah, an hour and a half.
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And today we literally walked in set up our stuff in like 10 minutes and we're done.
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It was like 30, but yeah, I got blanks.
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I always do this by our table up and our giveaways and all that.
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And then we've bounced to Curly's which guys, if you've been following us after we've
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bought this, we always talk about Curly's.
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Yeah.
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And Colin Michigan, Colin Michigan, which by the way, magic capital of the US for some
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reason, which makes no sense.
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Like it's a town of like what maybe I don't know, a couple thousand people, a thousand
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people in the middle of nowhere Michigan.
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It's like, hey, we're the magic capital of the US.
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And they have like, like, literally,
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every single storefront has postard after postard of all these.
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Or like rabbit show.
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Or rabbit or just it's weird.
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It's weird.
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It's just weird.
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But there's a spot Curly's been going to and it's always good.
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Yeah, always good.
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But we thought it was a little weird.
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Do we walked in?
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All the chairs were the same.
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They were all new.
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It was all clean brand new menus brand new menu.
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They took off some of our favorite things with a little said.
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Yeah, there's a little said not to get that but look again.
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Right.
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That's what I think.
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We're gonna bang it.
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But you know, we still got some burgers.
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Yep.
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We got actually we were cashiers.
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We were cute.
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We got the same.
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We got the same smash.
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Except for you got the on your rings and I got the fries.
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But you didn't get curly fries though.
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No, I feel like that was a slap of the face of curries.
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I didn't have the option for curly fries.
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We asked.
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No, but it just said fries.
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They only have one type of fries on the menu.
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And best just so you know, I had water.
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I did I have pop.
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I did good.
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I was a good little boy.
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I had him out and do.
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Which I probably should have pre-gained with water
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because it was so hot.
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Oh gosh, but then we found out while we were at Revive Fest
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that there's it's under demand.
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Right.
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So that's why it felt different, looked a little different
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but still good.
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It was still delicious.
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Like that is a tradition we have had for the last four years.
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Right.
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Of every time we set up we go to curries.
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Yeah, so we had our time figure now how many years we've been
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actually at Revive Fest and then we had to count it out
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and we're like, okay, this is our fourth Revive Fest we're doing.
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Which is kind of cool.
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I mean, really cool.
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It's kind of cool that we've been doing it for this long.
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And it is a pleasure.
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So Matt, if you're listening to bro, we want to say thank you
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for the privilege and the opportunity for actually being able
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to MC the event and it was good.
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Like it's a lot of fun to go up and interact with the crowd.
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We're tossing out Jeannie tossing out the toast.
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We got people coming up to us and like, you guys are so funny.
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We're like, really?
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My wife thinks I'm funny looking.
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But oh, my wife says I smell funny.
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That's true.
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She loves you.
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That's my guy.
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But I do have to commend you bro, because every year you always
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whip something like to back back at Revive Fest.
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So this year was the spinning wheel.
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This year was the spinning wheel.
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And it's been ahead.
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Like we've had lines coming up to spin the wheel.
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Just spin it.
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And I mean, now I just say we had like toned down our giveaways
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because we gave away like most of our chosen stuff
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in our swag bags the first time before like the gate's even
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we're gonna be out of everything tomorrow.
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Like those things we have like 800 more glow sticks.
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I think we'll be able to do it.
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Well, the small ones.
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The large ones we got like 60 left.
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But yeah, we're gonna blow through all the
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walker we're gonna give away so much stuff tomorrow.
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It's gonna be awesome.
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But yeah, it was a little soggy setting up.
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Oh dude.
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We had to stop and go to our vehicle because of a lightning.
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Which that was new.
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That was a first shot.
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We never had to do that.
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No.
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But during that time somebody got baptized in the river
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during that whole lightning scare,
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which was interesting.
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So maybe it was just having open up.
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Holy spirit coming down.
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You're you're you're you're me Jesus you might meet Jesus.
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I'm gonna meet me whole Colgan to why you're out until
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Robertson and everybody else.
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It's yeah.
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I was born fast away and then someone else
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passed away to like yeah, I'll be that music artist.
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What's his name?
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No, I was gonna say the dude from the copy show.
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The old country.
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I think it's the way to it's been a crazy month.
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It has been a crazy month.
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Anyway, that's what we're talking about.
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But so so needless to say we asked you guys months ago.
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I had to go back.
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It was mid May.
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We were getting ready to go to the wedding for Ryan and Evan
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Smith and which was awesome.
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By the way, and we are going to a wedding next weekend.
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We are for drivers every Eli Smith Eli Smith.
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Pastor Smith's son, which that makes me feel we are going
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to a lot of Smith.
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What a lot of Smith way different.
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Oh, another deer.
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Well guys, yeah, so we did not hit that deer.
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Now, now we're gonna.
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Buffers, love reason.
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The audio was just like, yeah, we're done.
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Like we don't record anymore.
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Just in case we hit the deer.
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We don't want to record anymore.
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But so you say what I was gonna say after the deer
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passed for a little bit.
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Pray we don't see another deer.
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I'm sure we will.
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We probably won't need Michigan Broads or Wilde.
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Is we asked you guys months ago about some different
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podcast topics that we wanted that you guys wanted us
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to talk about.
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And so we kind of put them into some different themes
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around different topics that you guys had.
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And there was a couple of questions you guys had
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about church attendance.
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About if your spouse doesn't want to go to church,
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what should you do?
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There's another question around the whole idea of
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when is missing church ever okay?
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That was a huge conversation inside the podcast community.
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And then there was another one of,
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why is it the right time to leave the church
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that you rent?
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So for this one, Fowler, I figured, you know,
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we're in the car.
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We're driving, we actually might need to turn the AC on.
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So there's a little bit of background noise,
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just ignore it because we don't want to die
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from fog windows.
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Yeah.
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Because it is like 100% humidity right now.
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So I imagine temperature outside with the inside
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and it's still not helping.
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It is nuts.
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So it means to say, bro, okay,
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so we'll start with the first question
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and it's a little on the road with RTC.
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So let's start with church attendance, right?
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When is it ever okay to miss a church service?
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Hmm.
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Well, I would say that the purpose of church,
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it goes back to the assembly of the body together, right?
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And so I would say as long as you're meeting
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with brothers and sisters and having that one on
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multiple relationship in some way,
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I don't necessarily think the day is as important
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as the community.
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It is important to an extent,
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but it is not the main thing.
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You know, the relational aspect is more important than one day
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where you're going and that kind of stuff.
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So what do you say then?
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Like, you know, instead of going church,
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like you know what I don't go to Sunday morning
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but I go to a small group.
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Like is that still good enough for you?
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I would say that is okay to do.
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I want to do it all the time because there's a lot of good
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stuff on on like a Sunday morning
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having a church community more than just a small group.
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The thing I fear with small groups is,
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I belong to two house churches in my youth
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and they're basically the same size as a small group would be.
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And without direction, without oversight,
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without, in not oversight from a pastor,
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I'm not talking about that,
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but oversight from the body,
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they fell into some pretty bad doctrine.
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And so it's not that I think that you couldn't,
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I just think it's more dangerous to be out there
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with just a small group.
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I think there's safety in numbers
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and in a bigger community that can lean and glean from each other.
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So for someone though who would be like,
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you know, we a lot of people in the podcast community
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when it comes to whether it be,
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that's a horse and buggy like straight up.
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That's just yeah.
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Yeah, what's up, I'm a folk.
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One horse, however, right there, baby.
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And that right is that son.
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I don't know how you can see how this friend wins with bro.
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But, you know, but there's a lot of people in the podcast community
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who I know who have been hurt by the church
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or they just can't find one that they gel with or vibe with.
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And so, you know, in one regards, I'm like,
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I don't know, like obviously being a pastor,
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you know, wanting to always serve in the local congregation.
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I've never have understood when folks are like,
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I'm good with just not going to church.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, okay, like, you know, once in a while,
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it's like, okay, like, full disclosure,
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we just don't bother to stay, which is not normal for me.
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Like very much Father's Day, like we in church.
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Right, right.
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And, but we wanted to do something different
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and we wanted to enjoy it with the kids.
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And even the kids though, which I think this is kind of cool.
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All the kids were very confused,
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we're like, but dad, it's Sunday,
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why aren't we going to church?
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But mom, like, why, like,
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should I be going to church different Christians?
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Like, which I'm like, okay, so at least we got our heads
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out in straight in terms of the kids know as we go to church.
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But then the question is, well, then why do we go to church?
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Right.
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And if, you know, you can get sermons from podcasts,
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you can get sermons from lectures and whatever,
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you can study the Bible on your own.
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But there's something to be said about the gathering
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of the body and the gathering of the saints.
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And this is where different church traditions come in,
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like some church traditions are all about, you know,
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the community table, like Presbyterians and Lutherans
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were the entire service centers around the Lord suffered.
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And in fact, if you're not there,
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you don't get to participate in that grace.
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That's what we're giving to.
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Or for the Catholics, you know, taking part of the Eucharist.
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Or for, you know, for us as bad as it be,
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well, you know, sitting under the teaching of God's will.
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And we all kind of have different focuses
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of the worship service.
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And you miss that when you don't go.
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Absolutely.
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And so, you know, I do think there's a time and place
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to not miss it.
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Now, you know, going back a few episodes,
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there was a time where we did that episode, gosh,
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I don't know, like first 20 something episodes
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where we talk about youth and sports
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and how so many times parents take their kids
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out of church to go compete with sports.
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Sure.
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So, you know, at the same time,
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we don't want to teach our kids that more things
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are, you know, like, oh, we got a church,
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but only when one of our schedules for them.
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Yeah.
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And so, so how do we balance that then?
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Buzz, again, it's pre-prioritizing God.
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You know, if you're missing church
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and it's a one time off thing, that's one thing.
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Like, okay, I may not always go to church
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when I go on vacation, right?
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And then, you know, I work on Sunday
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so I may not go to church.
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I watch the sermon online later on,
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but I may not actually make it to the Sunday service.
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So there's one off and then there's habitual action.
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And I think where you're prioritizing your time,
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are you prioritizing your time to go outside and do
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the zoo or sports and use the Sundays
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just a recreational day?
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Or are you prioritizing God with some exceptions in there?
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I think that that's really where the repubedence arose.
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And so, so for folks who kind of,
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like I know some of our listeners,
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like, the one in particular, they've reached out
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and said, like, hey, I'm not able to go to church
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till I have a job.
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But I know that they're still in college.
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Sure.
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And so they go to like chapel on Wednesdays
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or there's other folks where it's like,
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they always worked on Sunday.
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So they're like, I don't even know how to get to church.
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Sure.
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So I guess my next question would be is,
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what encouragement would you have for folks
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who is like, I am a Christian with our younger old,
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I want to be part of a local body.
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I want to be part of a church.
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And I either a can't because of life circumstances
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or be for some whatever reason,
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they just can't find a church to get connected and plugged in.
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Yeah.
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Well, I would say with the church that can't find,
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don't give up hope.
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Sometimes you got to go through several bad churches
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to find a good church.
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That's what Janiel I did.
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We did not go from the church we were at previously
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to our to Southside.
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We went through a few other churches
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before we finally landed up at Southside over a few months.
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That's how long was that search?
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Probably about three months.
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And we were going to a different church
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every single week trying to find a family.
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And we finally landed on Southside.
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And it's been a blessing.
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The biggest blessing we could have ever hoped for,
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it's one of the best churches I've ever belonged to.
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And that's what I would say.
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I have our friend, you know, the podcast, my friend Paul.
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Yep.
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Good on Paul Landon.
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And his family were on a church search for two years.
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Day two years.
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Before they finally landed on a church
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and they are absolutely in love.
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And they're both getting connected and serving
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and their kids love it.
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And that's only been just over a year
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that they've been at that church now.
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That's awesome.
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So yeah, just because it takes a long time,
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don't be discouraged, keep on checking things out
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and find where God wants you.
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And for the people that may have
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like life circumstances say, work.
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You know, there's work is not a bad thing.
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But if work is keeping you away from God
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and I'm not saying the church service,
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I'm saying keeping you away from God.
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You might need to reprioritize your life.
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Find another job and I'm not saying quit today.
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Go find another job then maybe turn you know,
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so something like that.
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You know, see what God will have got open doors for you.
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And if he won't then stay where you are.
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But like I know there's people that have bad health,
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right?
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That can't shut in.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And for those people, I would say,
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just try to stay connected the best you can.
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Yeah, you know, telephone, texting, social media,
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whatever that may be.
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And that's all possible.
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They can help out.
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But those are folks who want to be at church.
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You know what I'm saying?
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So sometimes I feel like,
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I don't want to say the person that asks this question
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is even thinking this.
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I don't think it is.
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But you know, I do think that there's a motive
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behind the question based on who's asking.
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Absolutely.
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Because there's some people who want the excuse of,
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oh, well, you don't always have to be at church.
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Like they're looking for the out rather than a dude.
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I really want to be at church.
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And I just can't because I would say
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if you're looking for the out that you're already,
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you're party lost the prioritization of church.
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You don't understand the value in the body.
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And so you need to, I would say seek out for yourself
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what value there is in the body.
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No, I'm not saying you're a local body,
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but in the body in general.
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And then ask God if it's important for you to be there or not.
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And there's something to be,
spk_0
yeah, he's got his high beams on.
spk_0
How are you?
spk_0
How are you?
spk_0
Oh, it was a big ol' like F340.
spk_0
It's a 50-year-old.
spk_0
So we've had a lot of the masks on right there.
spk_0
That was very, very bright.
spk_0
Geez, okay.
spk_0
And, you know, so, but with that whole thought then,
spk_0
let's kind of segue a little bit.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
So when we're looking for church,
spk_0
because you look for church,
spk_0
when you guys were looking for Southside.
spk_0
And you guys were looking for church,
spk_0
when we were looking for New Light.
spk_0
How did you guys determine that?
spk_0
In terms of what you were looking for,
spk_0
and like for what lenses were you guys processing?
spk_0
So I can only speak to our journey, right?
spk_0
And so the...
spk_0
No, you gotta speak to everybody's journey, bro.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
Everybody's...
spk_0
So everybody's journey should blind up with mine,
spk_0
especially Mark's, no.
spk_0
No, but I would say...
spk_0
Oh, not a trip in our favorite rocket, just like that journey.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
Floating through the sky.
spk_0
It's almost midnight, guys.
spk_0
We're listening to it.
spk_0
Well, there's an marble.
spk_0
Mark's a little slap at that.
spk_0
Little Einstein.
spk_0
All right.
spk_0
Anyways.
spk_0
So our journey, you know, it took place
spk_0
of a lot of prayer before we ever left the church.
spk_0
We were at months, months of prayer.
spk_0
But we're getting rain.
spk_0
Boom!
spk_0
Sorry.
spk_0
The farmers are watering their fields tonight, folks.
spk_0
I mean, we're not gonna make it home.
spk_0
We got multiple deer, every 50 high-beers,
spk_0
farmers watering, and we're not even like...
spk_0
We're not even halfway home.
spk_0
We're barely out of the colon of Michigan.
spk_0
I think we're getting near constant team, bro.
spk_0
Got to be close.
spk_0
So our journey was one of a lot of prayer before we ever left.
spk_0
And then when we decided to leave,
spk_0
I have to talk to pastoral staff,
spk_0
about some doctrinal issues with the settlement.
spk_0
And...
spk_0
So I want to pause there real quick.
spk_0
So you guys didn't just up and be like,
spk_0
peace, where I was.
spk_0
You guys actually talked to pastors and elders.
spk_0
Yeah, which we cared about the body that we were in.
spk_0
And it was very hard for us to leave.
spk_0
I mean, we didn't want to leave.
spk_0
It's just doctrinally we could not.
spk_0
They weren't staying within biblical grounds
spk_0
with some very key things.
spk_0
And I don't want to talk bad about a churchery.
spk_0
No, but they...
spk_0
It wasn't like secondary issues or even church areas.
spk_0
Yeah, it was a main thing.
spk_0
It was a main thing.
spk_0
Yeah, main doctrinal issues.
spk_0
And so what we decided to leave,
spk_0
what we did is we were looking online
spk_0
at statements of faith.
spk_0
You know, the doctrines that they had or taught on,
spk_0
we would try to find YouTube videos of that they might have
spk_0
and try to watch one of their sermons online
spk_0
and stuff like that to kind of preview the church
spk_0
before we ever went.
spk_0
And then, once we found a candidate
spk_0
that we thought would it maybe be a good, we would go.
spk_0
And we did that for a few churches.
spk_0
And either the church was cold or, you know,
spk_0
it wasn't very welcoming.
spk_0
Oh, cold, like as in like, exactly.
spk_0
Yeah, cold like you were a new person and nobody said that.
spk_0
Oh, interesting.
spk_0
Never even acknowledged you were there.
spk_0
That's awkward.
spk_0
And then, yeah.
spk_0
And then there were churches that did not line up
spk_0
with their statement of faith,
spk_0
which I thought was interesting.
spk_0
Well, like they said it online, but then they...
spk_0
Yeah, they were totally different.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah, it was like one church we went to
spk_0
and again, I won't name the church, but...
spk_0
But you may be, but offline.
spk_0
They were like teaching evolution to be true.
spk_0
And I'm like, whoa, this is like way out there
spk_0
from what your statement of faith was talking about,
spk_0
about believing the Bible was accurate
spk_0
and had no errors in it.
spk_0
It's like...
spk_0
Some more like a theistic evolution.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
spk_0
So, yeah, so anyways.
spk_0
And so, when we came across Riverside,
spk_0
Riverside, that's where we left.
spk_0
All right, well, we came off that side.
spk_0
We read the statement of faith,
spk_0
we liked what we saw, we did not get a chance to watch it.
spk_0
And I think maybe even Janiel went to a service by herself
spk_0
because I might have been working.
spk_0
Yep, yeah, I think she did.
spk_0
And so she went to the service and she's like,
spk_0
hey, it's good service.
spk_0
I went the next week I was off.
spk_0
And it was, it was just a very welcoming church, right?
spk_0
I think you were one of the first people to come up.
spk_0
I met you on my first day, man.
spk_0
Yeah, so you came up, you know, Pastor Scott came up.
spk_0
There were several people that came up.
spk_0
I knew I made a good choice.
spk_0
Yeah, and so it was just, yeah, I was very welcoming church.
spk_0
And then, you know, Pastor Scott started preaching
spk_0
and it was very, people could sound preaching
spk_0
and stuff that, you know, he was really adhering
spk_0
to the Bible more than just his opinion.
spk_0
And then even when he was speaking about opinions,
spk_0
it was well researched with commentators
spk_0
and very well known commentators.
spk_0
It wasn't just some plow off the wall thing.
spk_0
And so that kind of said to us, that, hey,
spk_0
we want to keep coming back and keep an eye
spk_0
and watch how things go.
spk_0
And so we went several more months
spk_0
before we actually joined the church.
spk_0
I think it was almost six months
spk_0
before we made the decision to actually join the church.
spk_0
So in that six months, was it more of like,
spk_0
and I will say to your credit too,
spk_0
like once you guys joined, do that pedaling down.
spk_0
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
spk_0
Like it wasn't one of those you joined
spk_0
and then you guys were just there for two years.
spk_0
And then, oh, well, did we never,
spk_0
never got connected, never did this
spk_0
because yeah, because you didn't do nothing.
spk_0
Like you guys actually got,
spk_0
but like you guys joined our small group pretty quick.
spk_0
Yeah, we were looking for community.
spk_0
That's what we, I mean, what we came from was a,
spk_0
was a tight knit community where we were family.
spk_0
And when we ended up leaving,
spk_0
there was a lot of hurt with that.
spk_0
There was a lot of church hurt with that, you know,
spk_0
because when we left, it was like,
spk_0
we had never existed to that church body.
spk_0
Didn't talk to anybody for years.
spk_0
But Lord has restored some of those relationships
spk_0
as some of those people also later on
spk_0
saw the errors going on in the church and left the church.
spk_0
Oh, interesting.
spk_0
Yeah, so.
spk_0
But yeah, sometimes it just takes time and, you know,
spk_0
takes time to really seek things out, try things out.
spk_0
And like that south side, you know,
spk_0
we didn't join right away.
spk_0
We, we were kind of there.
spk_0
We were observing.
spk_0
We were making sure it was going to be a steady flow throughout
spk_0
before we made the commitment.
spk_0
But then once we made the commitment,
spk_0
we're like, no, we're committing to this body.
spk_0
We are joining this body.
spk_0
We are a part of this body.
spk_0
And we're going to act like we're part of this body.
spk_0
Yep.
spk_0
And also our journey out of south side
spk_0
was a lot more different than what you did.
spk_0
Because like for us, and this goes in the question of,
spk_0
when is it time to leave your church?
spk_0
spk_0
Which is kind of interesting that we asked on this side
spk_0
and we went to that just chit-chat.
spk_0
So for you, it was theological.
spk_0
Like it was effective.
spk_0
You are not teaching the things of scripture.
spk_0
Right, correct.
spk_0
Which was funny because I wasn't even super like,
spk_0
typically sound by self-turing that time.
spk_0
But I knew enough.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
Well, you knew the main things of the faith words.
spk_0
Like that's not right.
spk_0
Like that's not true.
spk_0
And like, you know, for us, the south side, like we didn't,
spk_0
obviously, obviously, we didn't, we did not leave
spk_0
because of theological issues.
spk_0
Right, it's less but of that way.
spk_0
But you know, it's very hard to be at a church
spk_0
where you were on staff and then you were no longer on staff.
spk_0
You weren't married, got divorced, brought,
spk_0
and then you know, started a new family.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
A new unit of the hides and then still being in the same,
spk_0
I don't wanna say in the same congregation,
spk_0
but almost it was just hard.
spk_0
It was like getting married and buying a house
spk_0
with your former spouse and then getting a divorce
spk_0
and then living in that same house with your...
spk_0
It's just not your house.
spk_0
Like that thing, it was...
spk_0
Yeah, it's not something you guys did together.
spk_0
Like Beth and I had that conversation
spk_0
where we got married, we weren't gonna live in our house.
spk_0
Well, it was A.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
I mean, too small.
spk_0
You think we were gonna fit in that?
spk_0
But we had the conversation of, is it worth building?
spk_0
But it's like, no, this was mine and my ex's house.
spk_0
Not mine and best house.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And so as we were building out the church family,
spk_0
I mean, let's also call it what it is.
spk_0
Beth came up, daring COVID.
spk_0
And so she came and still massacred on.
spk_0
And so it was just weird.
spk_0
And so we were there for a full year
spk_0
while I was grieving that lead.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
And Beth was too, to extend,
spk_0
because she knows how much you mean to me
spk_0
in Soche, Scott, and all these guys.
spk_0
I mean, this is where I cut my teeth
spk_0
and ministry for a while.
spk_0
And the podcast came out of that church
spk_0
and all those different things.
spk_0
And to this day, Pastor Scott is still one of my pastors.
spk_0
You know what I mean?
spk_0
What you're going to is sun's wedding.
spk_0
Yeah, I mean, that's a deep.
spk_0
And I'm still in touch with some of my former students.
spk_0
Obviously, still in touch with you.
spk_0
Still in touch with Soche.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
We got Soche and my guys.
spk_0
Right, absolutely.
spk_0
We need to go home,
spk_0
we're back on the pod is what we really need to do.
spk_0
But I'm still in great relationship with that church,
spk_0
but it was just one of those things for us
spk_0
where it's like, we need to find a church
spk_0
where we can go and beat the hot.
spk_0
Yeah, you can reestablish your service.
spk_0
spk_0
And the church never made, I'll say this,
spk_0
the church at large never made us feel like Beth was Mark's new wife.
spk_0
And those were the new kids.
spk_0
And it was this weird thing.
spk_0
It was just effective.
spk_0
No, these are the highs.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
So Laura welcomed Beth in with open arms.
spk_0
There's so many other folks in it too.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
But it was one of those things for another deer, another deer.
spk_0
Oh gosh.
spk_0
Man, they just stare at you.
spk_0
Yes, it's probably going to jump out in front of me.
spk_0
Okay, go that way.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Go find your mom, baby.
spk_0
I did it.
spk_0
Stop recording again.
spk_0
No, it's the record of the stuff.
spk_0
I didn't hit the stop button and freak out.
spk_0
But so it's a deal say we left on very good terms,
spk_0
but it was just time for us to go and reestablish ourselves in the high.
spk_0
And so we were up in Northwest South then, right?
spk_0
And so there were not a lot of churches up on the Northwest side.
spk_0
Like I knew of a couple and that's the other thing too is for me,
spk_0
I know every church in this area.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
Like that's just part of the game, whereas Beth didn't.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And so for her too, we wanted to figure out what was the right church for us.
spk_0
spk_0
So, you know, we checked out lots of websites and if you would look at different
spk_0
churches, I'd be like, and not that one because of this or, you know,
spk_0
because of that or whatever.
spk_0
And so a big couple of things though that we had on our list was we wanted it to be,
spk_0
I'll just say what it is.
spk_0
Beth came from a non-denom church.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
I don't want to be autistic beliefs just because I obviously believe that most
spk_0
artistic theology.
spk_0
Yeah, artistic theology.
spk_0
Now, there are differences and opinions within it, but as at its core.
spk_0
And man, what has their high beams on?
spk_0
And then the other one though was chosen ministry.
spk_0
We wanted a church that wasn't just had kids and there's a bunch of kids to go,
spk_0
right?
spk_0
But there was an actual children's ministry, which I know some people they would rather have
spk_0
their kids in the service.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
And again, nothing wrong with that.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
Just with our family and our family needs, we felt that was that was that was best.
spk_0
Absolutely.
spk_0
And then we wanted someone who, if we were going to sit under their teaching,
spk_0
that they actually were a good teacher.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Because let's be honest, there's some people who are feel after loose time.
spk_0
Mm-hmm.
spk_0
They have a decent loving, warm environment, decent kids ministry, but it's like,
spk_0
I don't want to listen to this every single week for a monotone.
spk_0
This is a bright, exactly.
spk_0
Hey, me.
spk_0
spk_0
And no one really fell into that category.
spk_0
And for bad preachy, but I just heard some some teachers were online.
spk_0
Cool.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
And then music wasn't big one though for Beth, because Beth connects her spiritual connection.
spk_0
Music is a huge part of it.
spk_0
Mm-hmm.
spk_0
And so that was another big one.
spk_0
And so we visited a couple of different churches and kind of looked around and we visited
spk_0
new life.
spk_0
Pretty dang quick into our church.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
It was a sister church, a sister ministry.
spk_0
We were at ECA and some of Beth's friends went to new life.
spk_0
So we were like, all right, let's give it a shot.
spk_0
You know, like I've done Pastor Michael for years.
spk_0
Jake, and Pastor Mike.
spk_0
And so let's go give it a shot.
spk_0
And it's funny because one pastor Michael's taking a break.
spk_0
He ends up over at Towside.
spk_0
That's the new light planted south side back in the 50s.
spk_0
So it's cool.
spk_0
But we were at that church for a solid...
spk_0
Uh, we were at that church seven months before we joined.
spk_0
spk_0
And the reason was is because another big one for us is I want to go to church where we live.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And so I told Michael, I said, if we buy a house like way out in Goshen.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And we're on the other side, even though it's closer to our kids' school.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I'm not driving 30 minutes of church.
spk_0
When I know there are some great churches in Goshen.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
Oh, I love what that is.
spk_0
That's a raccoon.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
There's some great churches in Goshen.
spk_0
I want to be a church in my community so that when we invite people from our church over to our house.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And we're trying to invite small groups over and build up these relationships.
spk_0
It's not like, Ellie, you want to come to our house?
spk_0
Oh, yeah, it's 50 minutes down the road.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
Like when we were at Northwest Island south band, some people, it was 45 minutes to come to our house.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And that just wasn't working, man.
spk_0
So for us, like we wanted to be doctrically sound.
spk_0
We wanted to be a place where there actually is community.
spk_0
Um, but there's a lot of things even with new life doctrically, not primary issues.
spk_0
But I would say like secondary and tertiary issues that fast or sky, fast or
spk_0
Michael knows I don't agree with.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
But I must have like he's my fast or misadventures.
spk_0
He's absolutely.
spk_0
But we're talking dude, we're talking like in time stuff.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
But even Scott, like, you know, their pre-trib, dispensational words were more on the covenant side.
spk_0
Partial front arrest.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
You know, post post trip.
spk_0
But that stuff probably mattered when you talk to him.
spk_0
And he was like, no, Jesus coming back and he will ruin it.
spk_0
That's it.
spk_0
Okay, cool.
spk_0
Let's go.
spk_0
And there's some other things too, but I'm like, you know, those are preferences, not
spk_0
doctrine dog.
spk_0
Well, you know, it is doctrine, but it's not primary doctrine.
spk_0
Correct.
spk_0
But I mean more so of like personal political beliefs or personal of how different things
spk_0
work in the world or things like that, which where it's one of those things where it's
spk_0
like you have your personal beliefs or secondary issues that, you know, do they really matter
spk_0
or not?
spk_0
No, it's a great church with great people.
spk_0
Absolutely.
spk_0
I love having Michael in my pastor.
spk_0
And he is my pastor.
spk_0
And so he's absolutely great.
spk_0
And I will say it took us a little bit to start serving in the church because when we first
spk_0
came to church, Michael flat out came to me, dude, and this was a big win for them.
spk_0
He said, take all the time.
spk_0
He said, I know what your guys just came from.
spk_0
You guys have been in ministry.
spk_0
You guys are trying to build your family.
spk_0
He goes, he always had the word, dude, just sit in Marinate, bro.
spk_0
Just Marinate in the new life.
spk_0
Get to know the people.
spk_0
Get to know the folks.
spk_0
Start getting connected.
spk_0
Get plugged in when you're ready.
spk_0
And of course, he encourages where it's like, you know, getting involved in a small group
spk_0
if you guys are able to.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
So I eventually joined the men's prayer group and Beth has been in a connect group since
spk_0
we've been there.
spk_0
And that I've been doing Olympians, which is our version of one for the last two years.
spk_0
We've all we've done VBS for the last couple of years.
spk_0
And now I'm going, I'm actually going back up to you through by way that day.
spk_0
Yeah, you did.
spk_0
Yeah, they were coming back up to you through.
spk_0
So you boys getting upgrade back to your high boys.
spk_0
We get in there goodness, but, um, but yeah, so when we are choosing churches, like that's
spk_0
what went through our hands.
spk_0
And so when us, when we left Southside, very different for you, we left because it was
spk_0
time for us.
spk_0
We, I mean, we moved houses.
spk_0
We built a new family.
spk_0
It was time for us to find a church that was for Beth and I and the kids.
spk_0
Not one that was me.
spk_0
And then Beth kind of came in and let's find something to build our, build our family.
spk_0
Sure, sure.
spk_0
Whereas for you, it was not trineling.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And so I guess the question that we can bring back to the back is we just been, you know,
spk_0
conversation, chit-chot.
spk_0
I mean, that's what it is, right?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Car conversations with our conversations on the road, bro.
spk_0
So with, with people who are listening, they're like, they're trying to figure out
spk_0
do I leave the church or not?
spk_0
You know, because sometimes it's like, well, I don't like the music or I'm not a big fan
spk_0
of the ways that pass your preacher.
spk_0
Or maybe the children's, the children's, is it as good as what it means?
spk_0
Like, are there valid reasons outside of getting married or doctrine that would be a healthy
spk_0
church transfer?
spk_0
Not a church shopper, but a healthy church transfer.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And again, I think there is validity and moving churches kind of like what your story
spk_0
was, right?
spk_0
It wasn't a doctrinal issue.
spk_0
It was a little bit of married stuff, but not really.
spk_0
Because you guys had been at Southside for like close to a year.
spk_0
We're there for a year and to best Friday.
spk_0
So, she gave it a go, man.
spk_0
Yeah, absolutely.
spk_0
We gave it a go.
spk_0
It was just, it was a reestablishment of your family, your core unit.
spk_0
Yep.
spk_0
Together in finding your body together.
spk_0
And I will say I saw it out a lot of council.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
You and I had some good conversations about it.
spk_0
Devon and I had some good conversations about it.
spk_0
And so I felt like we left well.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Like we left.
spk_0
I even sat down with Scott and Fadera.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And I'm like, look, here's just where we're at.
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And he was like, obviously sad.
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Sure.
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But he goes, I get it.
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Yeah.
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I get it.
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And that's the big thing.
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If you do decide you're going to leave us, do your best to remain at peace with all
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men, right?
spk_0
That's one of our, the commands that we have.
spk_0
And, you know, if it's, it's doctrinal, you know, definitely have the conversation with
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pastoral staff, the leadership to see if maybe you're misunderstanding or maybe they
spk_0
are right.
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And at that point, you know, I would suggest prayerfully considering what's going on before
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you up in the, if it's something like when your story is, I would still have the conversation
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with pastoral staff to get the blessing.
spk_0
You know, you don't want to leave on bad terms or just up and leave and not show back
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up because it does hurt people.
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It does hurt relationships that you've had, maybe in that church.
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And so having those conversations, I know a lot of pastors, at least the ones that I
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know, really do care about the people that they are teaching.
spk_0
I sure hope so.
spk_0
Well, I mean, you know, there's something probably care more just about the Sunday service
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group.
spk_0
You don't really know you from Adam, you know, but there's something that really do care
spk_0
and want to get to know each and every person that comes to their church.
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And Scott, like Scott is definitely one of those people.
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I did remember his name.
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I can't.
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I can't.
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We were at the man seen those ones and he popped out his first name.
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He hasn't seen like a decade.
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I'm like, dude, bro, yeah, he's crazy.
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I can't remember your name.
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He was crazy with the name.
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So it's just he loves me.
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Yeah, absolutely cares about everybody.
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And so like somebody like him, if you got a pastor like him, but you're thinking about
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leaving for this that or the other, you know, it's a courtesy to them.
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It's a courtesy to say, listen, it's not leaving, but it's not because of you is because
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of this that or the other like in your situation, because I have to establish a church family
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and a bond with that church family as the hides as they are now, the hide family.
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So, you know, I just one of those things that I think is really helpful and it's really
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helpful to go out with a blessing and knowing that there's no bad relationship.
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And that's how you can still have relationships with people on south side.
spk_0
I think you had you just up and left.
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They probably would have heard a lot of people's feelings and probably would have the same
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response.
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But because you went and you talked to pastor Scott, you talked to others, I think that
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that's why people just say, yeah, Mark just needed to move on because he has a family
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and his family need to establish themselves in a church and everybody understood that.
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And I hope that we moved into the back yard of New York.
spk_0
Oh absolutely.
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But you guys had already moved to New Life when you were still on the northwest side.
spk_0
Yep, but we didn't join until we moved.
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And once we moved that next week, I'm like, all right, Michael, sign us up.
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Let's go.
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All right, so going into the last part of the conversation then with, I don't know if
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this person has an unsafe spouse or a safe spouse.
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They just don't want to go.
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But the conversation, the question was, is how do you handle going a church when your spouse
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does not want to go?
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Well, that's a, I never had to experience that.
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If your spouse is unsaved, we'll start there.
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That's the easier topic.
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Yep.
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You know, Paul encourages those who become saved and their spouse is unsaved to remain
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as they are and as they may be the light that brings them to Jesus.
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And I think it's important that you continue to go to church to be plugged into that body.
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Don't be discouraged that your spouse may not be looked for opportunities to present
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the gospel to them and continue to cover them in prayer.
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Prayer is a powerful weapon.
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And the Holy Spirit cuts to the heart of any man.
spk_0
And I think it's important to continue to build those relationships and still treat your
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spouse with dignity or respect.
spk_0
And then hopefully one day they will, they will be able to meet Christ and accept him as
spk_0
their Lord and save him.
spk_0
With the saved person, that comes up to be a little bit harder because they really should
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be involved with the body and you really should be involved with the body together as a
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spouse.
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And so that's a tough conversation.
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I think what you could do, I would encourage you to maybe talk to your spouse and explain
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how important it is to you that you go together, right, that you want to be a unified family
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and that you believe that church is important for your family core structure.
spk_0
And I would encourage them to come with you and to join you with that, to make new friends,
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to establish yourself as a family in that congregation and that body.
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And then I would go into that conversation, heavily prayed up and not rub their nose
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into or try to make guilt trip them into coming church.
spk_0
Some people, although they may be saved, may be, what's that old term, backslidden?
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That's an old term for you.
spk_0
Yeah, backslidden.
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Maybe they're not following God as they should at this time, but they still believe in God
spk_0
and no God.
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And sometimes it just takes a little time and prayer and God to touch and move their heart
spk_0
and for him to open their eyes and again, have conversations, but really it's just establishing
spk_0
the covenant of marriage of being one and leading upon that oneness as an encouragement
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to your spouse that how important it is to you and you would love for them to join you
spk_0
in this journey together.
spk_0
And that's it.
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For someone who's married to a believer, my first question is just, well, why don't they
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want to come?
spk_0
spk_0
And normally this is going to sound harsh.
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Normally there's some excuse.
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I don't like it.
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I just don't enjoy it.
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I've been hurting the past and a bunch of church are full of bunch of hypocrites and this
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that.
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Absolutely.
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Which is true.
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Yeah, I would absolutely agree.
spk_0
Which is why we need to be at church.
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That's why we need Jesus.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
And so for someone who is married to a believer and their believer doesn't want to come to church,
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I almost wonder, and I don't know, maybe I need to see people you guys let me know, I
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almost wonder if that's harder than being married to an unbeliever.
spk_0
Yeah, I'm sure he knows.
spk_0
spk_0
Now, I do, I had a lot of friends and people that served under me in this dude's ministry
spk_0
and another man should have the church where they were believers and their husbands and
spk_0
their wife, spouse, whatever.
spk_0
We're not saved and they felt lonely at church.
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And you know, well, it opens the door for Satan too, for both parties.
spk_0
I mean, if you're at church by yourself, it opens that up to feeling, feeling is a bitterness.
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And that's exactly where my brain went too.
spk_0
With that feeling of, well, everyone else has a spouse here.
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Which is a, I mean, my mom being, you know, a single woman going to church.
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She says like, sometimes being a single person at church is a very lonely experience.
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Do you look around and see all these spouses?
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And my mom, fun fact, I'm an oral trustee and Winston, I pray a group.
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Yeah.
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My mom wouldn't go or she would dip when it was time to pray because then there's,
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all right, partner up fights.
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I want to pray with everyone's spouses to turn to each other and she's like, well, I
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guess nobody's for me.
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I'm going to leave now.
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Yeah.
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And I'm like, that's not right.
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That's not fair.
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Yeah.
spk_0
But, you know, but for folks who has an unsafe partner, it's hard because they don't
spk_0
want things on the face.
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And so you kind of are the backbone of that and it can be discouraged, you know, and
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it just encourages you to, you know, find someone to, like, it sounds dumb, but find someone
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to do that life with.
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Absolutely.
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And to sit with or to start serving or plug it in because the best way to stop feeling
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bad about yourself is to start looking towards other people.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
You know, but if your spouse is someone who does, does not want to go to church, I think
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it's time to ask them hard conversations and figure out, like, really, why don't you
spk_0
want to go?
spk_0
Like what's, like, what's holding you back?
spk_0
And it could be as simple as they just, they're complacent or lazy.
spk_0
Like that, that could be it.
spk_0
It could be as simple as they were hurt.
spk_0
The past, it's full of hypocrites.
spk_0
And they just don't want to be there because they don't see the point of it anymore.
spk_0
Or it could be some deep, seated hurt that you just don't know about.
spk_0
Sure.
spk_0
But I feel like it's, it goes back to the conversation.
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If your spouse doesn't want to go to church with you, my first question is why.
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And then the question I would have is, could you find a church that maybe you both enjoy
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that may or maybe not enjoy, but like, like, okay, there's some big mega churches in
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our area that you and I naturally would not go to.
spk_0
But if that was the only church my spouse would go to, I'd be there.
spk_0
I'd be there and I'd be there and I would hope I would hope they would get some doctrine
spk_0
in them by re-scriptor not not want to go there eventually.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
I'd go with them.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
But just it's more of, you know, if, and if you can, for your heart out and say, this is
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why going to church is important with me, especially as a family, for our kids, for our
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marriage, for our relationship, all these different things, I think that's, that's a big,
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good conversation to have.
spk_0
It's a hard one.
spk_0
But it's a good one.
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So, oh, goodness.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
It's been a long day.
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It has been a long day.
spk_0
So, I think we can land the plane on this conversation.
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We talked a lot about different church stuff.
spk_0
But is there anything else that pop your mind when we're chatting that you're like, ah,
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I should have said this.
spk_0
You know, it's just just an encouragement of, um, be gentle in your dealings with people,
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um, especially when I consider church things, you know, whether you're, you're looking
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at relocating because of church hurt or bad doctrine or just, just, establish stuff,
spk_0
be considerate.
spk_0
Um, when you're talking to people, if you're the one talking to people that are leaving
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be considerate, be loving, send them out with love, hold peace as much as you can.
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If it's just spouse, you know, again, be as loving in this gentle as you can, um, talk
spk_0
about the, the values that you would like to see, establish in your, in your marriage
spk_0
and, um, and church being one of them.
spk_0
And, um, you know, I think that's one that, I think you obey the high authority at the
spk_0
end of the day and if they still refuse to go even after a conversation, you continue
spk_0
to go.
spk_0
Um, I would also start surrounding yourself with, uh, a good group of people to keep you
spk_0
from harvesting the bitterness in your heart.
spk_0
If you're hanging around, um, people that are just telling you how no good your spouse
spk_0
is because they won't come to church with you.
spk_0
Those are probably people you don't want to be.
spk_0
Those are not people you want to be.
spk_0
Because now they're making you divisive.
spk_0
Um, and I think there's no place in the church for divisive.
spk_0
But then there's also, you know, that, that old quote of, uh, a house, what, what was
spk_0
it?
spk_0
How divided will understand?
spk_0
Yeah.
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What's the, is that a script?
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A script for you?
spk_0
A script for you.
spk_0
spk_0
A house divided into self-canine stand, which is your house is your marriage, which is
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Jesus responding to the Pharisees when they said that he was doing the works of BL's
spk_0
above.
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Oh, yes.
spk_0
Yes, yes, yes.
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So that's where that was.
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The important part of the sin.
spk_0
Is that part of the important part?
spk_0
Well, that was, yeah, same, same passage where you're talking about that.
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Yeah.
spk_0
But the same thing goes through a marriage.
spk_0
Like if you guys are not on the same page, you just think it really hurts for that.
spk_0
Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
spk_0
And so I would just encourage you as you're doing these dealings with different people in
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different situations, be as loving and as gentle as you can, you may not agree with them.
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And that's okay.
spk_0
Just remember that you are a peacemaker, right?
spk_0
We're called to make peace and bring the gospel of peace to people.
spk_0
And you have to do the best you can to show them the, the love of Christ and the word
spk_0
of God.
spk_0
And if they refuse, that is between them and the Lord ultimately.
spk_0
And you have to be okay with letting the Lord do what he wants with that situation.
spk_0
Love it.
spk_0
Well, my dude, they feel like good conversations are back.
spk_0
Absolutely, absolutely.
spk_0
Time for us to pull into the house.
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Yeah, we're about 15 minutes out.
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15 minutes out.
spk_0
spk_0
Yeah, pray for that.
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We don't meet anymore deer between people now and then that would be awful.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Well, thanks for tuning in, guys.
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We love you all.
spk_0
And until next time.
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Take it easy.