Technology
#259: Sarah Gibson Tuttle, Founder and CEO of Olive & June – Work on yourself
In this episode, Sarah Gibson Tuttle, founder and CEO of Olive & June, shares her journey from finance to the nail care industry, exploring the personal and professional transformations that led h...
#259: Sarah Gibson Tuttle, Founder and CEO of Olive & June – Work on yourself
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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So at some point I turned around and I said,
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as much as I love my clients, do I really love this life?
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Is this really what I was destined to do?
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I wasn't thinking about disruption.
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I was thinking, what am I going to do with the rest of my life?
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I love this.
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It's like a therapy session.
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So here you are.
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You're running this wildly successful brand, Olive and June,
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that's pulling in close to $100 million in revenue a year.
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But as I understand it, you weren't allowed to even paint your nails as a kid.
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What do your parents think of all this now?
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I'm sure it's wild because my dad did not let me paint my nails as a kid.
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You're right.
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And I used to have a box of nail polish under my beds, you know,
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secretly hidden.
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And I would paint my nails when he was away on business trips.
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And so and red was especially his least favorite color.
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So that was my go to and continues to be my go to.
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So, you know, I think it's been a wild journey.
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They now talk about nails as if, you know, this was this was something they've
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always loved about me, but we all know the truth.
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And I keep telling the truth.
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As much as people will listen.
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I guess that's when they say success has many fathers or many mothers or
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however you want to think about it.
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You know, exactly, exactly.
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As we're doing this podcast of, you know, Halloween's coming up,
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what's the most popular nail polish colored for the, for the October season?
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You know, it's so funny is that the seasons change probably about a month or two
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before the clothes change like the nail seasons change.
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And so we start seeing darker colors pop up in August.
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And no one's ready to wear those clothes because it's too hot out still.
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But people are ready for those nails.
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So you'll see we have a ton of Halloween to huge nail season.
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So we have a ton of designs that are out across our retailers.
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Everything from bats to literally cats hanging upside down to blood drip.
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I mean, Halloween is very, very big in nails.
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I love it.
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You know, I want to get into how you're how you're leading all of them.
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And we'll do that in a few moments.
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But you know, I want to stay stay on your childhood a little bit longer here.
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Can you tell me another story from your your upbringing to shape the kind of leader you are today?
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I love this.
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It's like a therapy session early, early on this Tuesday.
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Oh, yeah.
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I'm known for being a great shrink.
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Fantastic.
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You know, my childhood was pretty idyllic from what I knew of it.
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You know, I look back and my dad's pretty tough and, um,
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and he can be a very explosive person personality wise.
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So I look back and I have I'm raising my daughter in a bit of a different style,
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but I was really I had the best older brother and I was a really pretty happy kid.
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I always felt a little bit, you know, I don't know if it was insecure,
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but for sure kind of scared of things.
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And I don't know where that really that comes from because my parents taught me every single day
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or every week of my childhood that I could do anything I put my mind to.
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But I always felt a little bit kind of not put together.
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And nails has always been my go to when my nails were done when they were painted.
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I felt like I could take on the world.
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And so it was everything from seeking manning is, you know, my parent,
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when my dad was away and completely avoiding his rules to when I got to my first job
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and finance, my weekly manicure was the only thing that made me feel like I know what
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I'm doing in this job because I was a philosophy major, a feeder minor.
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And I had no idea what I was doing at JP Morgan when I when I started there.
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So nails has always been this through line for me of when I felt insecure,
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when I felt like I wasn't sure, you know, what to wear or how to act.
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If my nails were done, I felt really like a full person and I could do anything.
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Well, that's amazing.
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So your passion for nails goes, goes way, way back and is just kind of rooted in your DNA.
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I don't even think I knew that it was, if that makes sense.
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Like it was something that was a kind of a coping mechanism for me that I,
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and I just also thought like it's just nails.
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Like that's what I think I thought when I was growing up.
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I wasn't a big makeup person or hair.
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I mean, it was always nails for me.
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But when I look back, it's so obvious what I've, what a threat it was for me
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in order to feel like my best self.
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And it's what I love about this business because I get to give that to everyone
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everywhere at an affordable price.
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And I feel so proud of that.
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And you know, you, you, you really didn't get into the nail business right away.
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As you mentioned, you started out in finance and you, you, as I understand it,
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you spent, you spent 10 years as an equity trader starting at JP Morgan Chase
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and, and then later at Morgan Stanley, tell us that story.
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How do you, how do you, how do you get into that aspect of the world,
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the other of the, of the business world?
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It's kind of boring.
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My dad was in finance.
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So finance felt like a, you know, the next logical step.
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All of his friends are in finance and my mom was in medicine.
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So her whole world was medicine.
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And so it was one of the other.
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I think in my mind and medicine was, and I mean, even though I brought up
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blood dripping nails, blood and medicine are not for me.
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So on nails, yes, but not as my job.
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It was kind of boring.
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It was like, well, he, he was doing this.
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I did a summer internship on the floor of the soccer exchange and I loved it.
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I think my personality was really well suited for something that's fast
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pace, that's demanding that you have to make people happy.
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All those things I thrive in.
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And so I started interviewing in college, my senior year for jobs in finance.
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And I got a job as an equity sales trader at JP Morgan.
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And really what that job is is service and clients.
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It's really making people happy.
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You are, it's very similar to what I do today, but it's just in a different
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realm where you're making sure their trades are correct.
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You're making sure they have all the research.
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You're just, it's just client service in a different way.
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And so I did that.
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And I think in some ways I was on autopilot because this is what my dad had done.
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It felt really comfortable.
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I was doing really well at it.
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I was getting promoted.
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And so at some point I turned around and I said, as much as I love my clients,
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do I really love this life?
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Is this really what I was destined to do?
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I don't know.
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I got to see minus and intro to econ twice.
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It feels like I probably wasn't.
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I really thought to myself, what do I want to be doing with my life?
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And that's where I started to really think about and soul search.
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What was going to be next?
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So like you're in this high pressure environment, though.
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I mean, the finance world equity trading, that's a lot of pressure that you're
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feeling every day.
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You know, what do you think that that really taught you that you carried into
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this next world that you moved into?
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High standards for sure, which of course my family had already taught me that.
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So that was a lesson I already knew, but then I knew it acutely.
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But everyone I was working for or with had incredibly high standards.
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I was performing at an incredibly high level.
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And so and also time, right?
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Where if you're trading a stock, if one of my hedge fund clients was sending me
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an order to buy or sell shares of a stock, it's milliseconds.
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It's seconds that you have to get that done potentially.
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Or you have to watch it super carefully over a period of time.
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And so you're really thoughtful of what time means and what, you know,
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now fast to market makes a total sense to me.
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But I understand acting under pressure and under a time constraint.
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And so I think overarchingly, all of it was customer service,
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but it was also customer service at such a high level that and with such high stakes
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that you learn, you learn what pressure looks like and you learn to either love it or hate it.
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I, I particularly like pressure.
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I think I, I perform very well under pressure, better than when there's lack of pressure, frankly,
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which I see in my daughter and I'm like, oh, goodness gracious.
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So, like, you know, you're in this high pressure job.
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Was there ever a moment or was there ever a time where, you know, you thought, oh my God,
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I've screwed up so bad.
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Can you tell us that story and how you got to, how you survived it?
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I mean, so many, there was one time with one of my hedge fund clients where I talked,
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not talked back to them, but I pushed back.
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I thought they were being really aggressive about what they thought their execution should be.
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And we got into it.
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And I remember I had to talk to my boss later because they went to my boss and said,
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I didn't, I didn't like how that went down.
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You know, it's an interesting thing because you're balancing you the external client,
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but you're also balancing your internal team, right?
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And how much importance does your client get versus your team?
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And I think about that a lot today.
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I mean, I defended myself, obviously.
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And I think there was better ways.
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I was a bit reactive, which I get from my dad, speaking of our therapy session.
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But you know, I think when I think a lot about, I was highly protective of my team
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and of their execution and of what they had done with the trade.
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And so I really had to learn the balance of internal versus external.
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And today we still think about that, right?
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Where it's our manufacturer versus our head of ops or, you know,
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there's always people on both sides of a conversation or a disagreement or,
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you know, hopefully not a blow up, but, you know, anything below that is normal.
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And so really being thoughtful of, of both parties and how do you bridge the gap
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when you have, when you're kind of far apart on both sides of that, you know, disagreement?
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So you go from like getting C minuses and econ to, to get into this world
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and actually being quite successful at it.
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But so, so when was this, when was this moment that you had where you said,
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Hey, you know, it's time for me to walk away and step into something new.
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I think the entire journey every year or two, I thought to myself,
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what am I going to do with rest of my life?
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I never really thought of it as a long-term career.
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I think, but it was, it was a decade long and, you know, I can, again, I did pretty well at it.
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I was not the best person on that trading desk by far, but I, you know, again,
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you get promoted enough and you do well enough that you're doing okay in a cut for a world.
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But probably right around like the seventh or eighth year in, I thought,
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I love making people happy, but this doesn't feel like I don't, I'm not excited to read the
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Wall Street Journal. I'm not excited to come to work. I'm waking up thinking, can I sleep in today?
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Can I say I'm sick? And it just, when I'm the, when I'm a bad version of myself,
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when I'm someone who doesn't want to do what, what's in front of me, I know I'm in the wrong place.
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And that could be in a friendship, it could be in a relationship, it could be at work.
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I'm very aware that when I start to disengage, something is a mess.
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And it doesn't mean you just give up, right? I mean, that was seven or eight years in and I was
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there for a decade, but I knew I had to start figuring out what my next step was going to be.
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I just had no idea. I was completely lost. By the way, I was, I just was getting married for the,
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for the first time. I was kind of going through that journey and then I was not happy in my job.
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And then I was not happy in my marriage. And then it was like, oh goodness, like there's
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a tidal wave coming at me. But I did take two or three years to say to myself, okay, I need to
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change the course of my life and do something that really fulfills me and makes me feel just
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excited to be at work every day. Because I've given it again close to a decade and I wasn't really
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happy. So I think it was a slow, to answer your question. I think it was a slow evolution,
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but also a number of external factors that were pushing me to realize that maybe New York
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and finance and frankly, my relationship, all of it was kind of not working for me.
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And so, you know, you had this early on passion for the, for the nail business and, you know,
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so tell me how you thought about, you know, going into that industry and, and, you know,
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everybody talks about the importance of disrupting categories. You know, how did you think about
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disrupting that category? It's so funny because disrupting wasn't even part of the like,
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like the lexicon at that point, you know, I wasn't thinking, I wasn't thinking about
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democratization. I wasn't thinking about disruption. I was thinking, what am I going to do with
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the rest of my life? And I was interviewing for jobs in LA and I was sitting in a dry bar,
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which is a hair blow up bar for those who don't know it. And it was in its heyday. So it was when
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everybody loved dry bar and I sat in that chair and I thought, this is the best experience I've
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ever had in a space. Like I just love, there's cookies and there's this and there's that. And so,
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and then I went to get my nails done for the same interview because I was in LA interviewing.
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This is where the driver was. This is where they started. And then nails on appointment experience
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was so starkly different than what the, what the driver experience had been. And I thought,
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why don't they have this for nails? And that I think sat in my head for a period of time,
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because I was so focused on getting into entertainment and changing my life and I love TV. And so,
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this was going to be the new, the new, the new my new life was going to be entertainment.
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And then at some point I was on vacation and my mind got to take a breath. And I remember sitting on a,
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you know, on a, you know, a pool chair by the pool and thinking, wait a second, I'm going to do this.
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Like this is, I've always loved nails, you know, it all started to click. And so I think that,
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you know, I don't, these ideas for me don't happen immediately. They take, they take time to
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marinate a bit. And that's something about my personality that I'm, that I'm now acutely aware of,
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that I take a minute, I got to reshape things a few times. I have to really be thoughtful of what's
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going on and not rush to a decision. And so it's a little indecisively burned me, but it also
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leads to the best decisions. And so I had that like bold moment, but after I had been marinating on
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it for a bit, for anyone who hasn't heard of all of it, June, tell us about the product you offer
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and what makes it so special. Absolutely. And so for anyone who's never heard of it, all of
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it, June started as a nail salon chain. And so that's where the dry bar of it all came in.
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It started as a nail salon in 2013. And then we, we subsequently launched a product line.
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But all of it, June is your best friend for all things nails. The idea is that nails is this
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category and beauty, but also in personal care that feels a bit like a mystery to the consumer.
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And we want to debunk everything for you. We, I love being people's best friends. So it works out
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quite well for my personality. But I love nails. And I know that, you know, their stat is something like
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96 or 98% of women feel better when their nails are done. So I wanted to give that to everyone.
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And so it started as a nail salon chain that we then launched products off of. And the reason we
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launched products was not so we could have like the best blue in our polish line. It was really
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so that you could be able to get a salon quality manicure or pedicure at home. So you were able to
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add an affordable price point, really get what people were getting in salons, but paying 80, 90,
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$100 for. And it's been incredible to see the growth because what we launched as like our original
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mani system kit, which is everything you need to get a salon manicure at home has now expanded to
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products across the subcategories, whether that be press ons, obviously classic polish and
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multiple lines, gel, etc. And so what we've been able to do is really to bring back the word from
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before it democratize that in salon experience for everyone everywhere. And it's been incredibly
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rewarding to be everyone's best friend for all things nails because not only have we had a ton of
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innovation in the space and change the category because before all of in June DIY was basically not
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part of nails. It was it was a forgotten piece for the consumer. And now we've led the at home
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mani revolution nail revolution. But in addition, we've been able to and innovate obviously every
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product every product is better. It works it last longer, etc. But we've also been able to take
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education and content and really put it on top of the products so that you're not lost in the
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category anymore. Not only do you have the best products that last longer than the competition,
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but you also have this education and we do it in in a ton of different ways, whether it's sometimes
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it's long forms, sometimes it's a really snackable content. But in a way where if your best friend
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was talking to you about how to do this, that's the voice that you're receiving it in. And you
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you actually call it a university, right? We do. Olive University. You know, Olive is my great
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grandmother and June is my grandmother. So it was named after these incredible women in my family
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who've inspired me. And we say all of you a lot because obviously it's it's the slang for
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love you. Oh, that's good. And so then Olive University is is a key part of of our lives at
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Olive and June. I love the background on the name, but that name is strange. I mean, you know,
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it's not something you would naturally come up with. It's you know, it's going, we're in a hell
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of that name come from, you know, but now I know I get it. It's so funny because people people
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have always said, well, you didn't put anything nail in it and you didn't put anything salon in it.
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And it's not it's not obvious, right? Like some of the other brands out there. And I said to
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everyone and I got pushed back constantly. And I said, if and they're like, they're not going to
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know what it is. I said, if they don't know what it is, then I haven't done my job right because
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Apple is computers and et cetera, et cetera. So if you can't figure it out, then I have not done
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my job correctly. Yeah. Well, I love it. I love the story about it. You know, you know, it's
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it's important for for leaders to have truth tellers around them. You know, people tell it to
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them the way how they at least think it is. And as I understand it, your husband didn't think
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Olive and Jen was a very good idea. How'd you resolve that one? He's one of my best friends. He's
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also my ex husband now. So no, but that's not why. Don't worry, everyone. David did not just
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stumble upon the reason why. But he is he is one of my best friends. And he to this day tells
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everyone, which I love. He's like, I didn't think it was a great idea. It makes me laugh. And it's
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why we're such good friends still and why most of my friends, I would say if not all are no people.
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I don't want to be surrounded by yes people to your point. I don't want to be with people that
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just yes me or just tell me what I want to hear. Because I think life's perspective and and
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creating something really special for people is about collective thought. And and again, to that
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point of marinating ideas and letting them, letting people ruminate over them and going back and
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forth. And I like people that make me a better version of myself. So my ex husband included. And so
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I I like that. I seek that in my relationships in my life. So when you get feedback like that that
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from a no person or somebody tells you, this is not the way they go. And you know, how do you
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process it? Do either stay on course or or make a necessary pivot? What's what's your decision
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making process? My decision making process. I filter everything obviously through my own
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you know, the information I have and my gut and it might instinct, but I would say that
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I will really weigh what people say if they are valued people in my life, right? Obviously,
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people say things to you all the time and not everyone is a valued point of view. And you have to
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you have to be able to discern between a valued point of view and just a point of view. But for those
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that are valued point of views in my life, I really sit with what they've said. And I try to
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adjust if I think that they're if there's there's merit to it. Often there is. Again, I surround
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myself with some pretty impressive, smart, curious people that and I ask them their opinions on purpose.
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One of our advisors of Brian Sugar, who I talk about a lot, who's a founder of Pop Sugar.
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And he has a he has a fund now called I believe sugar. He I remember said to me, don't go into
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retail. You're going into retail too fast. And the price of your polish is too high at 12 or
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14 dollars. I ignored him on retail because I thought he was wrong. And I agreed with him on the
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price of the polish and we lowered it to eight dollars. And he was spot on correct. And so I tried
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to what I did as I went to the market and I looked at where things were selling and who was I
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trying to compete with and all of these things. And I what I realized is that all the major names,
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all the household names, they're all at retail, but they're all at lower price points. So I was able
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to take the feedback and then do my own research. And often I take the advice. I mean, I again, I try
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to really be it's all of in June is not the Sarah Gibson total company. It's all of in June for a
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reason. I'm creating it for the community. So to take feedback, whether it be from a great advisor
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or a community or anyone in between is so critical to our success. Hey everyone, it's cool. Stay
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tuned to the very end of the episode because David and I have a brand new format that we're
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introducing in this week's episode of How Leaders Lead at the very end of the episode. He and I
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are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with Sarah Gibson Tuttle. So stay
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tuned because we're just going to get right into it after his interview with Sarah Raps. Watch to
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the very end. You started this business like any solar printer, you know, you're doing everything
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by yourself. What's been the hardest thing for you to give up? Because you've had to scale
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this business now to where it's a hundred million dollar brand. What's been the hardest thing for
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you to give up? You talked about how you surrounded yourself with great people. You know,
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everything, everything, everything is hard to give up. No, um, some things are easy to give up.
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I love giving up operations. So that's totally fine. I'm happy to give up, you know,
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dialogues and projects like that, um, on, on, on inserts. But no, I, I think the hardest thing
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is that there's creative that goes out that I don't always agree with. Like I don't always like it,
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or I don't personally think it's the right creative. But the thing is is that you're building this
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for a community of people. You're not building it for yourself. And I always say to our team,
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we're here to serve the customer. This is not, community is not just a word at all of
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June. It's the heart and soul of our business. And so we have to create lots of different things
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for lots of different people. So everyone feels seen and loved by the brand. And so there's oftentimes
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where a creative direction is something that our team is really passionate about. I don't,
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I don't see it. It doesn't. But then I'm like, I'm just an end of one. But that's very hard for me.
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But it has resulted in some of the most
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interact, um, engaged with creative. And so I have to remember that and take a step back. And
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we hire amazing people to do their jobs, let them do it in the best way possible. And see what
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the results are. But it's a creative person. And I work in the marketing world myself. You know,
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when you see something that goes out that it doesn't meet what is your standards,
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doesn't that just eat etch? And you know, how do you put it in the parking lot?
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A lot of a lot of work. I mean, I work on myself. I try not to react as much. I mean, again,
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I kind of alluded to my dad's a pretty explosive person. So there's a lot of reaction and reactive
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tendencies that I have. But I work really hard not to have an immediate reaction and let things
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sit with me because often I come to the place where everybody else is. Sometimes it's a little late
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and it's maybe a day or two later or six months later, but I get there. And so I have forced myself to
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kind of retrain myself to allow for that in our in our in our working environment. And frankly,
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I love it. It's benefited the business so much. And so I think when you see the results,
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right, where when you take a step back and you say, okay, I don't love them. Let's say how it goes.
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But then the results are explosive. But even if they're not explosive, they could be explosive
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to the downside, but that's okay too, because you've learned something. Once you get the learnings,
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but especially when they're positive, you realize like, oh, I don't, first of all, I don't know
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everything, which you kind of already know, but it's a good humbling moment. But also, I am not,
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you know, I'm an end of one. I am our core customer, right? I am the core customer of all of
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and June, I do my own nails. I'm obsessed with nails. I stress and I think about my color for
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the next manicure and next pedicure, but I'm still an end of one. And so in this community to your point
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at, you know, close to $100 million in revenue last year, think of how many bottles of nail polish
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at $8, $9 dollars that is. So if that's the case, then I, there's so many people in our community
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that we are here to serve. Yeah. And you've had explosive growth and it really took off in 2020,
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where I think you grew your business 16 times, you know, and launching your at-home kit just
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just before it's launched shut down before before COVID, you know, how much of that success
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you credit to preparation versus just good fortune? I always think good fortune is important.
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I always think you have to time it right. Things have to go your way. You have to have luck
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in some capacity, but you have to be prepared for that luck. Obviously, we launched that
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manny system a year before COVID hit. And so luckily, we had the right product,
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but to grow 16 times a year from, you know, $2 million to $32 million in product sales was insane.
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And so, and then to continue to grow after that, you do need the wind at your back. And so I'm
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grateful for that. But I think the reality is if we hadn't had the right products, if they hadn't
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been true innovation, if they, we hadn't gone live every day for, yeah, I think it was something like,
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I don't even know, 40, 50 days, like in a row, because people were just sitting there with
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their boxes and they didn't know what they were doing. And then continuings have long and short
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form content and really supporting people, it would have been a flash in the pan. And that's why
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we've been able to scale to close to 100 last year, be the only, you know, beauty company that
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got fully acquired last year, which was really a proud moment for us because we not only were
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prepared, but then we had incredible execution and support for our community. And we've always put
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the community first. We've never made it about us. It's always about their experience, their journey.
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You know, and during COVID, and I think you alluded to this, you went live on Instagram,
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57 days in a row to teach people at home. I mean, that's impressive. And what did that season
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teach you about staying connected to your customers? I have always because of my background been a
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customer service person. So it was just, it reiterated to me what people need in life, which is a pep talk.
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They need to feel like they can do anything. And we are here as a brand with incredible products,
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but also we are here with that pep talk. We are here to say you can do this. It's not that hard.
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You just need to know a few things and you need the right products. And then you're going to get
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this $40, $80, whatever it is, manicure at home. And you're going to have done it yourself for
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a dollar, right? So it's just that people need the support and the pep talk in order to get
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the confidence to try something. And so it really reiterated that for me. It solidified it for me.
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It didn't teach me anything new, but it was a nice reinforcement for what my vision was for
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the business and how to grow it. And now you have this massive following on social media.
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But you know, sales obviously drive your business. How do you think about converting all the followers
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in this, this, you know, the community you have on social media into customers?
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I actually don't think about social as an ROI as ROI. I don't think about it as how do we convert?
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I think about it as how do you inspire? How do you educate? How do you make people happy? Because
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I believe I'm like a field of dreams person for those who have seen that movie. If you build it,
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they will come. It's like my favorite thing to think about. But I believe that the more we inspire,
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delight, educate, you know, make you happy, you will try our products. So to me, social is not a
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conversion. And metric or funnel, it is about just being a joy and a light in people's lives,
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so that when they're next at Target, Walmart, Walgreens, etc. that they say, oh, that brand is
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so cute. Or I saw that nail art or, oh, they may be laugh or, ooh, I saw someone talking about
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how great those pressons are. And so they grab it and they try it. I love it. You know, how do you
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how's the how's AI impacting your business, Sarah? What's funny is that we kind of love AI
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at all of in June. We use it really to help structure our thinking, whereas some of
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you want to do a plan for a strategy. And you can just put what your thought is an AI. And just,
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they can actually just give you the template for what you have to fill out, which is so helpful,
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because sometimes you're just stuck on how to even structure something. So it's not affecting,
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I would say, like our core business. Like I don't see, I mean, they're not making nail polish instead
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of us. But I do find it to be a helpful tool in some of the operations or structural pieces of
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our business. Sometimes you're stuck on a creative idea and you just ask like, what brand should we
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collaborate with? Doesn't mean we're going to reach out to those brands, but it gives you something
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fresh to think about because my team is incredibly talented, but we get tired. And so it's a nice
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to have not a half to have for us, but I truly understand what it's doing to the creative field.
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And I'm deeply sympathetic to that. So I think it's a balance for everyone and how they bring it
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into their business. I've heard you say that perfection is boring. You know, how do you create
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a culture where people feel safe to experiment and to fail? It's a bit of trial and error, right,
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where I have to then own my mistakes pretty publicly or I have to own my missteps, but also
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create a bit of a casual environment so that, I mean, I'm not a call today. I can't remember what I
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said, but I said something and I said, sorry if I came off wrong and my head of creative started
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laughing and said, yeah, it came off so wrong. I'm so mad at you. And the whole team laughed. And
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the idea is that you're just yourself, you're earnest, you own what you do, but also that we're
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in an environment where people are really loving and kind to one another. And so you just model it
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really, but it is a bit of trial and error because I think perfection is boring and I think
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there's a lot of beauty in the imperfection, but also I have a team of rock stars so they all
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want to be perfect. They all want to everything to go right the first time. So you have to just
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continue to have those conversations. And also when things don't work, you learn so much. And I think
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that people forget that it's not just when things work that you learn. It's also when things don't
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work. And so then I will constantly reinforce this is great. We learned our consumer doesn't like
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that color. Okay, we're never making a color like that again or we're not making it impress ons or
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whatever, you know, and so, but again, you don't know until you have the data one way or the other
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that things are working or not working. And so I think it's a constant reinforcement.
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You know, one of the things I've noticed just in this conversation, so you seem to have a very
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high self-awareness. And you know, so and do you have a process that that you use to really,
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you know, assess where you are at now in your career and in your business and then what you need
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to do to sharpen your sharpen your own acts? I think I was raised with a healthy amount of feedback.
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So, and I have an older brother who loves to tell me he's not talk about a no person. So I get a
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lot of feedback. And then again, like, like we said, I surround myself with people that are not
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yes people. And but I enjoy growing. So I would say that I read a ton, I research a ton, but I also
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go to regular therapy. I really try to be aware of what I've done. And also I welcome, I tell my
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friends, like you can tell me anything. Like if I've done something that has hit you wrong, tell me,
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I think that the only way that you become the best version of yourself is if you, it's not just
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one thing or one process. It's if everyone in your life plus is giving you the feedback plus,
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you're open to it and you're showing they're open to it. I, I also think that one thing that
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sometimes people don't realize is when someone's giving you feedback or they're frustrated with you,
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personal, professional, anything, if you show that you will accept it, they feel more comfortable
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in the future to give you more. And ultimately, that's sometimes the biggest hurdle or roadblock for you,
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if you, if you're defensive or you don't, don't hear them, because then they don't want to do it
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again. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to work in an organization where people feel like they
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can't tell me when, when I've done something right or something wrong. And I don't want to be in
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relationships, friendships, romantic, otherwise, even with my daughter where she can't tell me how she
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feels. So I try to be as open as I can and then I find sometimes a little too much, right? Like,
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it's like, okay, I get the feedback. All right, I'm just kidding. But it's, but I think it's really
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healthy. And so it's not necessarily a process, more so a lifestyle that I try to embody.
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Yeah. And one of the things that you mentioned, you said you do therapy and, you know,
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takes a lot of courage, A, to do therapy. And then the, you know, do I think admit that you do
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therapy? Where does that come from? I think it's great to do therapy. I think, you know, it's funny,
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I had someone in my life once say that everyone you, everyone who goes to therapy, things are
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better than everyone else. And I was like, no, they don't. They, in fact, think they need more work
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than everyone else, which is why they're in therapy. As I did look as my childhood was in my own
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brain, when I look back, you know, I have a pretty complicated relationship with my father. I
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had some insecurities that I think I alluded to earlier. And I don't, I just, I think I inherently
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knew that I had things to work on and things I wanted to work through. I've also been married twice.
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And so, and divorced twice. And so there's been a lot of life lessons for me along the way.
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And I've wanted to make sure that I am always the best version of myself so that I can live the
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best life, right? I mean, I'm, I want, I only get one shot. I want to, I want to live it to the
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best of my ability. But also, and my daughter is 10. How do I model for her? What real growth and
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evolution looks like? You don't have to be stuck in time and be this one person. It's important for
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her to know that growing and evolving is frankly a gift that we get in life. We get that gift
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to grow and evolve. You're not born as one person and you can never change. And so use that gift.
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You look at it as a gift. Look at it as great fortune to use your words.
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I love that. You know, there's been so much there. And I want to have some fun with you with my
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lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? Here we go. Here we go. Here we go.
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The three words of best describe you. Loyal, loving, enthusiastic.
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If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be?
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I really, really want to come back as my great-grandmother, Olive, because I named Olive and June after
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them because I was obsessed. I know this is a lightning round, but I'm just going to say one more
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thing. I was obsessed with my grandmother, June, my whole life. And then I realized, well, I was told
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recently by my godmother that actually it's Olive who I embody. And so now I really want to come
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back and live life as her because she had one beer and one cigarette every day and she was
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life of the party. And so I just want to live that life for a day. I love it. Your biggest pet peeve.
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I really don't like when people say I tried my best. I just don't, I don't, of course you did.
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We don't need to say it. Who would play you in a movie? My friends would say either Scarlett
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Johansson or Emily Blunt, which I'm fine with both. They're both icons.
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I would be too. Well, maybe not me, but if I were you, I'd like that. And I agree.
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I've heard you're a huge Taylor Swift fan. What's your favorite Taylor era and why?
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Reputation. You know, I am a, I also took the Harry Potter quiz. I'm a Slytherin for,
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which I don't present as a Slytherin for those who know, if you know, you know, but I, but I am a
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Slytherin and Taylor's reputation era is so badass. But I think showgirl is going to be my new
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fave. So we'll see. We'll see when that comes out. What's the one thing you do just for you?
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Every night that I'm not out, you know, but if I'm home, I get into my bed after I put my
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daughter down, I get into my bed and I just tick tock and I just scroll tick tock. Sometimes I read,
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but mostly I tick tock and it's just I get to be in this comfy bed in my comfy pajamas, having
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just showered and I'm just relaxed. And that is the best thing that I do for myself.
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Besides your family, what's your most prized possession?
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My great great grandmother Olive had an engagement ring. Like I was her engagement ring and I
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received it from my godmother when my grandmother passed. And so I turned it into a necklace.
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I'm actually, I just took it off last night because I had physical therapy, but I wear it almost
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every day. And so it's her engagement ring on a necklace. And it's, I love it so much.
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If I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear?
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I already mentioned Taylor Swift, but if I to give another answer, M&M is my favorite. So
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kick-talking M&M. No wonder you're on trend. No wonder you're kicking butt, you know.
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What's something about you that few people would know?
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Did I ever chill? I think I give a very enthusiastic high energy.
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I think I think I act that way, but I do relax a lot. I am calmer than I appear.
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Great. Well, we're out of the light. You're a great job. And so you talk about your,
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your, your young daughter, you know, how do you lead at home, Sarah?
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I really tried to be, first of all, I'm a person who believes in
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structure, boundaries, and, you know, making sure that my daughter knows what success looks like. So
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I can be, I wouldn't say strict, but I can be pretty strict on certain things. And then on other
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things, I'm completely unstricted about. So, and I'm really fun. So, you know, you have to have
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the right manners. You have to speak to people and look them in the eye. You have to be a person
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who reads and is curious in the world and works really hard. And so all of those things matter.
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And then what I also try to do is make her life as fun as possible and as filled with as much
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joys possible for season pass holders at Disneyland. We go often, you know, we really, I, I try to make
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sure she has a huge social life. And I do a lot, you know, I volunteer at the school. Like I really
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try to make her life be to understand that structure is really important and it's healthy. And it's,
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it helps you be the best version of yourself while also having as much fun as possible.
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I am lucky because I work from home. So, I'm able to structure, we have a remote company. So,
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I'm able to structure my life a bit so that I can prioritize her and my parents were unable to do
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that. And so I really try to take advantage of that while also instilling the values that my
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brother and I grew up with that I really deeply appreciate. You know, you talked about, you know,
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life and the part of the joy of life is evolving and continuing to grow and making the most of that.
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And can you share with us what your dream come true story would be?
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In life or all of in June or...
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We both, you know, how you look at it. What's your dream come true? All of in June is part of it?
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Well, I will say and I think this is part of who I am. I have a ton of gratitude. And so
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I already feel like I'm living my dream life. I don't, I'm so grateful for all the success of all
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in June and I'm so thankful for it. And for my daughter and I think, you know, I'm obsessed with
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her. So I feel very happy and I do feel like I'm living a dream life. But for all of in June to be
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the number one nail brand in the world is my, is the reason why after selling a business and,
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you know, all of the success that that comes with that, I am still day and day out 24, 7 founder CEO
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and not leaving the business because I love my job. And because there's so much left, we have so much
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left. Like, I don't want to leave it on the field, right? I want to play the game. And so I get really
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excited to build all of in June into the number one nail brand in the world. So that is my, that's my,
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that's probably the one dream that I haven't gotten. Well, you're on your way and, you know,
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what they say about business, I always say the best thing about business is the unfinished business.
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And that's what seems to have you excited is that that pursuit of that number one goal.
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Last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
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You can escape hard work. Hard work and putting in the time and putting in the effort,
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putting in the research, nothing can be done without true hard work, no matter what it looks like
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or appears or someone tells you it is always about grinding to get to the best answer.
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That's that's great advice. And I want to thank you, Sarah, for taking the time to,
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to be on a show and to share your insights and congratulate you on the phenomenal success that
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you've had. And, and I love it that we haven't seen anything yet.
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We haven't. And I'm honored to be here. You're truly, I love your podcast. So I'm very honored to be a guest.
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David, I loved this episode with Sarah Gibson Tunnel. She is so amazing, so amazing.
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In fact, that I just sent her a DM on Instagram and told her how incredible I thought this interview was.
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And she actually just responded. So I'm curious, David, what's your reaction to your conversation,
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with Sarah? I mean, you never met her before. What'd you think? No, I think Sarah's incredible.
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Particularly loved her last answer, which is, you know, don't underestimate the power of just
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hard work. You know, I think so many people just want things so fast, so quickly. And, you know,
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they think they can get there for the, you know, 30 to 40 hour work week working virtually. But
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they don't realize just how you, if you really want to move up and, you know, achieve everything
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you can possibly achieve, you got to put the hard jargon, you got to put the work in. And I love
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that she's obviously done that. She had vision for something different and she's pursued it and she,
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she's not stopping. She's got goals and I love that. I do too. And if you'll notice,
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my nails are painted with Olive and June nail polish. So quite apropos for this debrief conversation
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that we're going to have. I love some of the themes that Sarah touched on and that you two kind
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of discussed in the episode. So I want to just dive into what some of those themes were so that we
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can give people listening to the episode, something really tangible that they can take away to apply
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to their own leadership, to their own life, and to their own career journey. You know, David,
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it was really obvious to me after listening to this interview that Sarah is the type of founder
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and leader who really knows herself. She knows how she tends to make decisions and therefore,
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she knows how to manage herself well so that she can show up for her team. And David, it's great
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when you work for a leader with high self awareness. But there are a lot of leaders listening to this
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podcast who don't work with leaders with high self awareness. And in fact, they work for people
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that lack self awareness. And I'm curious, your perspective on what to do in that scenario when the
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person that you're working with or for lacks self awareness. Well, I think first of all, you need to
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do your job really well. So you have credibility. You know, once you have credibility, then you may have
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the opportunity to actually opine on what your boss could be doing better. But I think once you
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really do start putting some points on the board and you become very valuable to the company valuable
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to that leader, you're inevitably going to have some opportunity to be able to coach the person
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that you work with. And you know, my belief has always been as a team member, your job is to make
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your boss better. Your job is to make your boss better, your company better. And so when you have
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those opportunities to do it, you should take them. And I think the best way to earn the credibility
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to to help your boss become better is to do your job extremely well and become so valuable that
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that person really needs you. And so when you have something to say, they're going to listen to him
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to unless they're tone death. And sometimes that's that's a situation that does exist where just
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people leaders are in jobs. Maybe they shouldn't be in. They're probably not going to get to a higher
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job because they they are tone death. They don't have high enough self awareness. But you know,
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I think if you're a really good member of the team, you know, you try to help everybody get better
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around you. I love that. I love that. And that that theme of just really knowing yourself comes up a
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lot in the episode. And I love when Sarah talks about that moment that she realized that she was in
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the wrong role. She worked in finance for 10 years. And until one day she kind of finally admitted
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to herself that she didn't like her life or and the way that it was shaping up. And she didn't like
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the work that she was doing. And she had the self awareness and and willingness to admit that
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and and make that pivot. And so obviously she pivoted and now she's running this $100 million
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nail brand. You know, but cool. I think one of the things that's interesting about that and I
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write about it in my book called Taking People With You. And we teach it at the, you know, in all of our
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leadership programs is is you need to know yourself to grow yourself. The the only way you can
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ever grow is to really know who you are and and know what your capabilities are. And no, frankly,
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in the case of what she's talked about, if you have me one of these leaders has low self awareness,
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you learn that you've got low self awareness and you need to move it up the ladder. But you know,
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I think she understood the importance of of doing what you love. And she she was very good at what
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she did. You know, she was doing well. But you know, she didn't have that that that positive buzz you
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got to have when you go to work. She wasn't like as Warren Buffett, you know, says tap dancing to work,
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you know, she's going through the motions. And she know she knew that life could be more than that.
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And you know, I love how she she pursued her passion. For people listening who might be
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in a similar spot of thinking about transitioning in their career, how do you do that well so that
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you don't earn bridges or or create tension with the company or industry that you're leaving?
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It's very important to try to grow where you're at first. You know, look, look where you're at and
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say, Hey, you know, these are the things I want to do. Can I do it at this company? And then,
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you know, go to whoever you work with and try to pursue that opportunity if it's there.
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If it's not there, I always feel like, you know, you need to be doing your job well enough to
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where you can actually have a communication with your with your the person that you work for.
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And you kind of let them know what your frustrations are or where you what you want to do with your
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life. And they hear that and you make sure that they do hear that and they either try to help you
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do it at your company. Or when it's time for you to move on, you know, it's not a real big surprise.
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You know, because you've been honest with them about, you know, how you're feeling about the
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company and what you really want to do in your life. So, you know, I say, you never really
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surprise people. And then when you leave, make sure you're leaving and going to a place, it's
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going to help you pursue your passions and it's going to help you grow yourself, you know.
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So know yourself so that you know how to grow yourself and know where to go. So you move with
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purpose. Don't don't move, you know, just to move, you know, very few people change their lives
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by just crossing the street and doing a job somewhere else with with just maybe a little bit more money.
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You know, that's that's really shouldn't be the reason why you move. You should move when you know
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that you can make a quantum leap in your learning and in your growth. And I always feel like the
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biggest thing you can do is is when you're you're not growing, try to figure out how you can grow
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where you're at and if you can't go grow where you're at, go somewhere where you can.
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I love it. That's a great dovetail into this final kind of theme and concept that I want to
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debrief with you, David. Sarah shares in the interview that something like 96% of women feel
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better about themselves when their nails are done. And honestly, I agree. So before this episode,
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I literally painted my nails so that I talk with my hands so that when you see my hands, I'll look
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put together because my nails are done. And I feel a little bit more elevated and chic because I
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painted my nails. And I think that what she's really getting at is is the little things that you can do
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on a personal level that boosts your self-esteem and confidence and help you show up in a way that's
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more positive so that you can contribute in a more meaningful way to the people around you. So
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David, I want to know like, is that something that leaders need to be thinking about? Is it important?
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And what are some of the things you do to boost your self-esteem?
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Well, first of all, I love the fact that she understands that. She understands the power of nails.
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She understands that you feel better because you've got those white nails with that white sweater
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and your white earphones, you know? And that's why she has so many different colors. That's why
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she has seasonal nails. That's why Halloween is a big period for her because she knows people like
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to lift themselves up and lift other people up and create almost conversations around their nails.
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And I see that happening all the time with women that I happen to have the opportunity to hang
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around. You know, they like looking nice. They like being on trend. And I think that's really powerful.
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So, you know, what do I do to lift myself up? I mean, I don't know. I guess probably the most
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important thing I do is try to stay in shape. I think it's just that when I work out every day,
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I really enjoy that and it picks me up. And I like having my whoop watch because I like to see
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my progress. I like to understand what my performance is. And so, and because I'm regular and disciplined
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on this front, I'm constantly making progress. It's reflected in my whoop. And, and, you know, so that
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lifts, lifts me up. And I tell you the other thing that I have a great appreciation for is
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being dressed properly. You know, I like to, I like to wear things that our stylish look good
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and and do the best I can with what little I have.
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I love that. It feels almost silly for me to say, but there's it actually makes a real impact
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in the way that I show up and the attention that I have to to share with the people that I work with
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and with the actual work that I'm doing. When I look good by painting my nails or for you
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wearing something nice and entrant, you feel good and when you feel good, you're more fun to be
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around. Everyone has a better time. And ultimately, the product that you produce is just going to be
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better. You know, if you talk to anybody in the fashion industry, the clothing industry, you know,
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what do they tell you to buy? They tell you to buy stuff that you feel confident in.
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You know, and so I think that that's that's something that, you know, people should constantly be
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working on is their confidence level. You know, you should be working on something that makes you
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feel good, makes you project, makes you, you know, have this sense of confidence that can inspire
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assuming you have confidence. I always say, confidence goes along, you know, with, you know,
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with confidence. You can't have the confidence without the confidence, but if you have that,
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then I think you should be looking for ways to lift yourself up.
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Hey, Olive and June started out as an in-person nail salon and now Sarah Gibson's
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adult is growing it to over a hundred million dollars and that is a whole huck of a lot of
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eight dollar bottles of nail polish. So don't ever underestimate what feeling good about yourself can
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do for a business. And how about the Olive and June story? She names it out for her grandmother and
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great grandmother and you know, I found a sort of a clunky brand name, but it seems to be working
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hundred million dollars in bad. Absolutely. David, thanks so much for the deep brief. I really enjoyed.
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I always enjoy talking to you, especially when I'm so obsessed with the person that you interviewed.
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Well, we try to have people that on the show that everybody's obsessed with, but I'm really glad
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you loved Sarah. Well, that does it for today's episode of How Leaders Lead. Be sure to tune in
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next Thursday for David's conversation with Nick Green. He's the co-founder and CEO of Thrive
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Market and you are going to love this episode.