Technology
136. Mini Retirements: Redefining How You Work, Rest, and Live with Jillian Johnsrud
In this episode, Jillian Johnsrud challenges the traditional concept of retirement by introducing the idea of mini retirements—short breaks throughout your career that allow for personal growth and ...
136. Mini Retirements: Redefining How You Work, Rest, and Live with Jillian Johnsrud
Technology •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
spk_0
Welcome to Point Me to First Class, the only show for employed professionals, entrepreneurs
spk_0
and business owners who are looking to optimize their higher-than-average expenses to travel
spk_0
the world.
spk_0
I'm your host, Devin Gimble, and I believe that your expenses are your greatest, untapped
spk_0
asset.
spk_0
If you know how to leverage them, ready to dive into the world of credit card points
spk_0
and miles so you can travel more, travel better and travel often, let's get started.
spk_0
Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast.
spk_0
Do you think you've to wait until your 60s before you can retire?
spk_0
Maybe not.
spk_0
At least not the way we've been taught.
spk_0
Joining me today is Jillian Jonsred, an author, podcast host and coach who challenges
spk_0
the idea of a traditional retirement in favor of taking many retirements throughout your
spk_0
life and career.
spk_0
Jillian never expected to be able to retire early, so she hatched a plan to retire often
spk_0
instead.
spk_0
Inspired by the idea of sabbatical years, she set out to sprinkle retirements through
spk_0
her life.
spk_0
Jillian has taught, coached and written about many retirements for almost a decade and
spk_0
is here today to discuss everything you need to know about this alternative view of the
spk_0
role retirement can play in your life.
spk_0
Share practical advice about how to plan your own many retirement and tackle the tough questions
spk_0
like how do you actually talk about taking a many retirement to your employer and how do
spk_0
you financially prepare to take time away from work?
spk_0
By age 40, she had taken over a dozen many retirements that allowed her to pursue dreams
spk_0
like living abroad, traveling to 27 countries, investing in real estate and touring the US
spk_0
in a camper.
spk_0
Jillian has coached thousands of people through creating their own many retirements and
spk_0
recently released her book Retire Often.
spk_0
Jillian, welcome to the show.
spk_0
I'm so excited to have you here today.
spk_0
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
spk_0
I cannot wait to dive into this topic because I think it's going to be one that not everybody
spk_0
has heard of and you have so much experience in this that I knew that you would be the
spk_0
perfect person to have this conversation.
spk_0
So can we just start at the very beginning and can you explain what is a many retirement
spk_0
and why is it important to practice retirement ahead of time?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
So I define a many retirement with three elements.
spk_0
The first, a month or longer, I find a month is kind of that minimum effective dose
spk_0
to really disengage from work and start to settle in recover from burnout, all that
spk_0
fun stuff.
spk_0
And a month is a really good amount of time to do something very cool and interesting.
spk_0
The second element is stepping away from your nine to five or your primary career and
spk_0
the third to focus on something that matters to you.
spk_0
And the reason people take many retirements is actually super varied.
spk_0
Right now I would say recovering from burnout is a huge motivation, but slow travel, extended
spk_0
travel, you know, things that are tough to do in nights and weekends.
spk_0
Like if you want to hike the Camino, you're probably not doing that on a four day weekend.
spk_0
If you want to do a road trip to 10 national parks, like that's not happening on a Wednesday
spk_0
evening.
spk_0
So people need longer stretches of time for these big goals or ideas and a many retirement
spk_0
really helps facilitate that.
spk_0
Yeah, you and I were chatting a little bit right before we hit record and I was telling
spk_0
you that, you know, especially in the field of medicine, which I'm no longer actively practicing,
spk_0
but was my primary career prior to doing what I'm doing now.
spk_0
A lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are physicians are working in, you know,
spk_0
kind of like similar types of professions.
spk_0
And I'm now, you know, in my almost mid 40s.
spk_0
And I think growing up to me, anything I ever heard about retirement was you get educated,
spk_0
you work full time, you save during that time until you're probably around 65 and then
spk_0
you stop working completely and then you're retired.
spk_0
And I think that a lot of people probably are familiar with this very, very traditional
spk_0
kind of idea about retirement.
spk_0
But why do you think it's important for us to begin to question that or why maybe does
spk_0
that not actually work for everybody?
spk_0
Yeah, I think that model used to work fairly well when people had 40 year careers at the same
spk_0
employer in the same career field.
spk_0
And there was a pension and work life balance was honestly different.
spk_0
I think so many professions now aren't geared to be sustainable.
spk_0
They're geared to burn through people because, you know, of capitalism, like it's more
spk_0
profitable to do it that way because you're not going to have them employed there for 40 years.
spk_0
So why does it need to be sustainable?
spk_0
If people are going to switch jobs every three to five or 10 years, you can burn someone out
spk_0
entirely because then that's not your problem.
spk_0
So like I don't know if we can fix capitalism, I can't at least.
spk_0
But we need to figure out ways for us to survive and thrive in this new economy and in this new
spk_0
system. And healthcare, I think I work with a lot of healthcare professionals is a really
spk_0
perfect and unique example of a system that is not sustainable for most people.
spk_0
Not sustainable for very long careers.
spk_0
Honestly, very tragically, not sustainable for very long life spans in a field that we're
spk_0
supposed to be taking care of people's house.
spk_0
It's very detrimental to people's health because it wasn't built sustainably and
spk_0
especially in healthcare, there's a really unique cultural narrative that it should kind of be
spk_0
awful and you should accept a lot of suffering.
spk_0
And I don't know if that's through undergrad or medical school or residency,
spk_0
but people come out very convinced that like I should accept the worst working conditions,
spk_0
I should accept the worst treatment.
spk_0
Like I'm just lucky to be here kind of vibe, which is really fascinating to me and entirely
spk_0
untrue. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way because I feel like healthcare workers have a
spk_0
lot more agency than they are led to believe they do. And they're not led to believe they do because
spk_0
people don't want them to know that they have a lot of agency in their career.
spk_0
Yeah, I think you have hit so many nails on the head just talking about that.
spk_0
I was nodding so vigorously when you talked about that because I agree with you about all of those
spk_0
points. And a little bit later in the conversation, I think it'll be great for us to get to some of
spk_0
those specific fears or concerns or objections that people naturally have around the idea of
spk_0
how can we actually make many retirements possible for us. And I know that you have some
spk_0
fantastic advice about that. But before we get in there, I wanted to talk just a little bit more
spk_0
about this idea because I think it's going to be really, really new and really challenging in a
spk_0
great way for a lot of people going to the way they think about their time, their career, their work
spk_0
and what's actually possible for them. And so can you tell us a little bit about how is a mini
spk_0
big or excuse me, a mini retirement different from vacation? Are they different? Or what distinguishes
spk_0
one from the other? They can be very similar, but how we view it and how we approach it and
spk_0
usually the feel of it is very different. So a lot of people for a vacation, it's a week. But then
spk_0
is a little skewed. And so because you only have a week, people try to do so many things and they
spk_0
try to fit in all the things and they carry that same, you know, whether you're a physician or other
spk_0
job that's kind of high stress, high intensity, rushing, rushing, rushing, rushing, rushing, they
spk_0
carry that rushing energy into their vacation because they're in that rushing energy, but they
spk_0
also want to get the most out of it. And so they tend to be very expensive. A week long vacation,
spk_0
I talk about the book, there's kind of a time luxury continuum where you don't, if you don't have
spk_0
a lot of time, we tend to want more luxury. Like if we're only going to be in Paris for four days,
spk_0
like we want a good hotel, like we want good food. But if you're going to be in Paris for a month,
spk_0
then it's not, you know, you could just get like a crepe or a cappuccino, like you don't have to
spk_0
pack in so much and not everything has to be so extravagant because you get to enjoy this
spk_0
simplicity of it. And what are the other dynamics? Is it for a lot of people, if they're
spk_0
mentally and emotionally invested in their work, it takes some time to disconnect from their job.
spk_0
They're kind of mentally, even physically carrying that energy and that thought process and
spk_0
those emotions with them. Day one, day two, day three, day four is if you're on a, you know,
spk_0
week long vacation by day five, you're like, oh, I'm actually starting to relax. Like I'm starting
spk_0
to kind of get into being a vacation mode. So on a mini retirement, you might still be
spk_0
traveling and doing vacationy things. But I find that shift. There again, why a month is kind of
spk_0
that minimum effective dose around week two, week three, people really settle in. And their whole
spk_0
body, it's almost like their nervous system does a deep exhale. And they really start to relax
spk_0
and be more present and feel more grounded and recover from burnout in a much more profound way
spk_0
than you do in seven days of like rushing around. Yes. And I think especially for people who have
spk_0
been conditioned to like you said, operated a very high level for a very, very long time, even when
spk_0
we want to take breaks, even when we do take a vacation and we want to relax, it can be really,
spk_0
really challenging to really transition into that mode when your body and your nervous system
spk_0
is just so used to being so activated all of the time. Now, one of the things that we mentioned
spk_0
is that the idea of retirement, at least for people who were born, raised kind of educated in
spk_0
North America, is a very kind of linear path, right? You educate, you work, you stop, we're done.
spk_0
Because this is such a different idea about how to live your life and how to work,
spk_0
incorporating in mini retirements, I'm so curious to hear from you. How did you come up with this idea
spk_0
of taking mini retirements to begin with? It was originally the idea of like a sabbatical year,
spk_0
kind of like an old testament idea. You work seven years, you get a year off and I just thought,
spk_0
well, that's fascinating. I don't know what I'm telling myself at the time. I'm like, I think
spk_0
people used to do this and he was like, yeah, I don't, actually, I don't know if they did do that,
spk_0
but I'm pretty sure people don't do it now. And I was like, but what if we could? Because we weren't
spk_0
super high earners, I wasn't expecting that we would be able to retire really early.
spk_0
So I thought the only access we're going to have to all these amazing experiences and adventures
spk_0
and these other goals and dreams is to retire often to take these little shorter retirements.
spk_0
And to your point, I think there is this old pattern that worked fairly well, I've just like
spk_0
worked 40 years straight and then retire forever. But as the working career gets longer and
spk_0
his life spans get longer, there's a bunch of things you might want to do at 35 or 45 or 55 that
spk_0
either you might not be physically capable at 75 or your preferences just change. Like,
spk_0
there's things that I loved in my 20s. I did a coast to coast cross country road trip and like we
spk_0
slept on people's couches and on the frozen ground and intense and like almost got trampled by
spk_0
bison and it was amazing. I'm 42. I do not sleep on the frozen ground. The season of life, I loved
spk_0
so much when I was 24. It was so good. It is not for me anymore. You could not pay me to do a
spk_0
four day trip to Italy. I am so mindful of traveling time zones. If I'm going seven times
spk_0
zone so way, it is not going to be for three days and then a return flight seven times zones.
spk_0
It just doesn't sound appealing anymore. At 27, I'm like, all day long. I'll do that.
spk_0
So I think with longer careers, longer life spans, we're looking how do we make this sustainable
spk_0
and moving in and out of these seasons of work and these seasons of retirement? Honestly,
spk_0
they help us appreciate each of them more. You come back to your work appreciating all of the
spk_0
value and benefits that it brings because you reduce the downside of the burnout and the fatigue
spk_0
and the tediousness of it. And then you appreciate the retirement more. If it's a month or two
spk_0
months or three months versus, you know, if you're three years into retirement, how great is that
spk_0
June? You're like, oh, it's another month. I don't know. But when you rotate back and forth,
spk_0
both of them become better. Both of them become more meaningful and people can enjoy
spk_0
substantially longer careers, especially for people who have jobs that are very meaningful to them
spk_0
and a lot of their identity and a lot of purpose and they feel like there's a lot of contribution
spk_0
to what they do. Stepping away from those is a little tricky because they do fulfill a lot of
spk_0
mental and emotional needs. And those aren't super easy to replace. I don't know if people
spk_0
are like, I'm going to volunteer. And they realize, oh, it's actually tough to find something that
spk_0
ticks all of those boxes in the same way. It has that same impact. So if instead of retiring at
spk_0
55, what if 55 to 70, you drift in and out. And every year you take three months off. Then
spk_0
that full retirement doesn't feel as pressing. Like, I have to get there in order to survive and
spk_0
it to do fun things because you have lots of rest. You have lots of fun things. You have lots of
spk_0
adventure. And then you get to go back to work that's meaningful and that fulfills some psychological
spk_0
needs for us as well. Yeah. And I think you touched on something that doesn't get talked about
spk_0
very often, which is that with the traditional retirement model, especially for people
spk_0
whose entire kind of work life up until that point has been a very demanding, a very intensive
spk_0
career, something like you said, where it's not just something they do, but it is very much a part
spk_0
of the way that they conceived themselves and who they are and how they walk through the world
spk_0
and how they contribute that going from a 20 or 30 or 40 year career where that was your experience
spk_0
to then we have this hard stop date. And now we don't do any of that anymore. I think that abrupt
spk_0
transition, even if it is wanted and intended, I think can be so challenging for people to conceptualize
spk_0
how do I actually make this move from who I wasn't what I've done for my entire adult life,
spk_0
for many people to not having that anymore in terms of the structure of their day, where they're
spk_0
time, where their attention goes and all of those things. And so this idea of peppering in your
spk_0
working career with these longer than a traditional one week vacation time away, I think also
spk_0
kind of really helps people step into that experience of just who am I, what matters to me,
spk_0
and what do I want to do outside of work before they hit 65 or 70 year old time frame and have to
spk_0
answer that question for the very first time in their life. It's a really good test run. It's a
spk_0
good practice round to work out some of the kinks because there's a lot of things you have to figure
spk_0
out in that transition. Your social circle, if a lot of your social circles at work, you have to
spk_0
build and maintain friendships outside of it, developing hobbies that are interesting, if you're
spk_0
married, how you communicate and navigate being at home with your spouse 24 hours a day, 70s a week
spk_0
kind of vibe, or testing out these assumptions. If you're like, I think I would love to retire to
spk_0
Portugal, but you've only spent a week there. Well, maybe you go and spend a month there and you
spk_0
test out one or two cities and you kind of get a sense of where you might want to live, or you're
spk_0
like, I would love to RV, you know, we're going to buy this big RV and as soon as we hit 62, we're
spk_0
going to travel around the US, but you've never opened an RV like, or you've never gone out for more
spk_0
than five or six days, you can go and test that assumption and your assumption might be entirely
spk_0
correct, or you might learn some new information in which case you now have the time and opportunity
spk_0
to pivot before you hit retirement. You can practice some new things, you can add some new things to
spk_0
the list, you can problem solve some things. I think one of the common experiences is people think
spk_0
that they have a very rich social life outside of work until they stop working. And then a lot of
spk_0
their friends are still working, their family's still working, and not people don't have a lot of time,
spk_0
and they're like, oh, this isn't quite as vibrant of a social life as I thought it was,
spk_0
but now you know that and you can start to prioritize that in your schedule moving forward.
spk_0
Yeah, those are great, great words of advice. Now, I think so many of us when we imagine retirement,
spk_0
be it traditional or starting to play with this idea of mini-retirement, of course,
spk_0
think of traveling. It's, you know, a huge love for so many of us, but our mini-retirements just
spk_0
about traveling, or can they have other functions too? What do you tend to see?
spk_0
I think traveling is a high priority because it's just to do slow travel, extend to travel. It's
spk_0
so hard to do in nights and weekends and a one-week vacation. You know, I interviewed someone on
spk_0
my podcast that I thought this was such a fun idea. They bought a map, him and his spouse, and then
spk_0
they got little pushpins, and start putting pushpins in every place that they were interested in
spk_0
visiting. And then they quickly realized, oh, there's a lot of places. And they kind of worked
spk_0
out the math. If we do all of these in one week trips, it's going to be very expensive, and it's
spk_0
going to take years and years and years and years. Or we could just do one six-month trip, and it
spk_0
was ridiculously affordable, and they got it all done, you know, in that year of their life.
spk_0
So I think travel's a big one, but there are things at home that I was encouraged to put,
spk_0
sometimes there can be some guilt and shame of like, well, I should be able to do these things
spk_0
alongside my nine to five, even if they're nine to five or 60 hours a week. Like I should be
spk_0
able to improve my mental health and do therapy. therapy is so hard. It's an hour plus it takes me
spk_0
like five more hours of downtime to recover from the hour, or I should be able to improve my health,
spk_0
or lose weight, or figure out my nutrition, or invest in my relationships, or my hobbies. You
spk_0
know, I took a month off to learn tango, and tango's when you can learn at nights and weekends.
spk_0
She takes her real long time. Here's a steep learning curve, but I wanted to get a jumpstart on
spk_0
that learning curve. And so giving yourself that gift and that permission to have almost a
spk_0
capital investment in those things that matter to you, knowing that if I put a big investment into
spk_0
my friendships or into my health or into my garden or into my hobbies every year after that,
spk_0
I'm going to benefit from that investment I made. And it's going to keep kind of paying dividends
spk_0
to me. Yeah, I love the breadth of different ideas about how you could spend time. And I bet that
spk_0
there are going to be people who, if they start really toying with this idea of taking a mini
spk_0
retirement, that they might actually end up imagining hundreds of different options for how they
spk_0
could spend that time, right? Especially if they've never had one month or six weeks as an adult
spk_0
to just invest in something outside of their work. So how do you suggest that people decide
spk_0
what they want their mini retirement to look like and how they want to utilize that time?
spk_0
Yeah, there's a reason I titled the book Retire Often versus take one epic mini retirement
spk_0
because if we try to do 47 things, none of them go really well and it's a little discouraging.
spk_0
So it is important to focus in on a couple goals, a couple intentions for that time off whether
spk_0
that's recovering from burnout or travel or pursuing maybe a career pivot. Like you know,
spk_0
there's a lot of people, especially like mid-life-ish that they're like, okay, I've done this for quite
spk_0
a while. Am I going to do this for the rest of my life in this exact same way or is there something else
spk_0
that might be a slightly better fit, a better use of my skills? When you're working 60 hours a week,
spk_0
you don't really have the time or the creativity or the bandwidths you even consider, let alone look
spk_0
and research what that might be. So a mini retirement kind of provides that space, but I encourage people
spk_0
pick one thing ideally, but I know no one can pick one thing. So I say pick up to three things
spk_0
and create distinct kind of time periods or seasons or phases of your mini retirement. So you're
spk_0
not trying to do everything at the same time because sometimes things don't, it's kind of like
spk_0
flavor. Sometimes certain flavors don't blend together like vanilla and garlic. Like keep those,
spk_0
they're both delicious, but let's keep them separate in different dishes. For people who have the
spk_0
opposite problem where they have no idea how they would spend a certain amount of time off,
spk_0
do you have any tips or tools to help them begin to design what a mini retirement could look like?
spk_0
It is a spectrum of like, I have 300 ideas or I have zero ideas. So I go through a couple exercises
spk_0
in the book to start that imagination. One of those is an exercise I actually borrowed from David
spk_0
Bach. He initially named it Be Have Do. I found those words confusing. So I think you might
spk_0
your identity, your activities and your possessions. And I just have people brainstormed, what is your
spk_0
identity? Are you a spouse? Are you a daughter? Are you a gardener? Are you a reader? Are you a cook?
spk_0
Like are you a traveler? What are those things that you would either already self-identify for or
spk_0
are kind of aspirational that you would like to be? And then looking through what is your ideal
spk_0
daily schedule? What is your ideal weekly schedule? And when you put those exercises together,
spk_0
sometimes you'll notice there are things that in my identity or my activities that I say are
spk_0
really important or they're on my calendar and I say they're really important, but they're not,
spk_0
or they're on my ideal calendar, but they're not actually on my actual calendar. I don't have the
spk_0
time in the space for them currently in my life. So a mini retirement can just give you that time
spk_0
in space to build out those aspects of those activities that you want to be or that identity that
spk_0
you want to have or this calendar that kind of resonates with you for whatever reason. And I have
spk_0
people do that frequently because it's a good snapshot of where you are right now. What feels
spk_0
important right now? What feels compelling right now? What are the things that are kind of reoccurring
spk_0
things that show up on multiple different lists? You're like, oh, apparently like reading.
spk_0
Like I really, I really need to do more reading because it keeps popping up and it's clearly not
spk_0
on my calendar. Can you give us a couple examples because I know that you have taken multiple
spk_0
mini retirements over the last 20 or so years. Can you share with us just some of the ways that you chose
spk_0
to design different mini retirements at different points in your life? Yeah, there's a few filters
spk_0
that use, especially if you have like 300 ideas like how do we filter it down to think about the
spk_0
next mini retirement? And so one of those is kind of affordability thinking like a spreadsheet.
spk_0
If we sort them by cost, it usually makes sense to front load the more affordable ones just in our
spk_0
overall financial trajectory and health. So that's one, you know, if you want to do a road trip
spk_0
and you also want to do like an around the world cruise, maybe we do the road trip in our 20s and
spk_0
30s and 40s and we save the around the world cruise to our 70s. And in that same vein, what about
spk_0
our capability? If we assume that maybe our capability and preferences will change with each decade
spk_0
of life, which ones make sense to get sorted into which decade? And so you can take your 300 ideas
spk_0
and go, yeah, maybe I do these in my 30s. That would be good in my 50s. I could probably do that
spk_0
in my 70s, but also seasons of life. You know, do these involve other people? Is it because like
spk_0
right now your kids are in grade school and they're this really wonderful age where they can walk,
spk_0
but like they know to look both ways before they cross the street and they still love being with
spk_0
you 24 hours a day. Or maybe your parents are young enough and fit enough to like hikes
spk_0
are Ireland with you now. But if you put this into your 60s or your 70s, they might not have
spk_0
that physical capability to do that. So it helps you sort them a few different ways to see what
spk_0
makes sense for this next one. Financially, emotionally, what do I need? Seasons of life.
spk_0
You know, what things if I don't do it now, that opportunity might pass me by. Yeah, I imagine
spk_0
that's going to help people really kind of clarify what not only what matters to them, but what is an
spk_0
order of trying to tackle these things that actually makes sense. So once people kind of get to the
spk_0
idea where they really start entertaining, taking a mini retirement, how do you suggest? How do people
spk_0
decide how much time they want to take off for a mini retirement? And what are some of those
spk_0
in like initial first logistical steps that people can take in order to design a successful mini
spk_0
retirement? Yeah. As far as the time off, I would think about what makes sense for you first
spk_0
in your career and financially, because those are usually our biggest constraints. If those aren't
spk_0
constraints at all, then we have a whole different conversation about how much time you should take off.
spk_0
If those aren't constraints at all, people really enjoy six to 12 months.
spk_0
If there's no other no other constraints, but with your job currently, or if you're going to be
spk_0
switching careers or switching employers, how much time do you feel comfortable in between? And
spk_0
what's the financial flexibility you have with that? I encourage people, if you're like a mini
spk_0
retirement is absolutely not possible for me, like my employer doesn't offer it, they would think it's
spk_0
stupid. And like I don't have a ton of money. So I think I should start with a month because it's
spk_0
actually fairly reliable to get a month off from your employer if you put some effort into that
spk_0
conversation. And a month isn't terribly expensive, even if it's unpaid. And you might have, you know,
spk_0
a week of PTOs, you might only have three weeks unpaid. I encourage people to try to keep
spk_0
the budget for their adventures. You have to cover your take home pay for the month,
spk_0
the budget for the adventure to not be more than an additional 50% of your take home pay.
spk_0
So if you take home 5,000, then your budget's 2,500 for your adventure. You take home 10,000,
spk_0
and we have 5,000 for this adventure. In reality, the budget can be zero in a lot of situations. It
spk_0
can be less than zero, which sounds crazy. But you know, I interviewed some for the podcast,
spk_0
him and his fiance went and traveled, I think three months in Asia and three months in Europe.
spk_0
But they rented out their house while they were gone. And they rented out their house for more
spk_0
than their trip cost. So their budget was technically less than zero. Like they had an amazing
spk_0
adventure, but it wasn't any more expensive than just if they would have lived at home. So looking
spk_0
at kind of those factors, but you can do some really cool things in a month. And it gives you
spk_0
that confidence and that clarity of like, oh yeah, you come back and you're like, I'm definitely
spk_0
going to retire often. This is the new plan. And you can start to strategize longer money
spk_0
retirements. Yeah. Now I am so glad that you brought up kind of these two main constraints that
spk_0
I think a lot of people probably struggle with initially around this idea, one being career
spk_0
constraints, one being financial constraints. And so I want to dig a little bit deeper into both
spk_0
of them. And I wanted to start with the career one because I think for many people, even if they
spk_0
would love this idea of taking many retirements, they're on board with that. They have ideas about
spk_0
how they would love to spend this time. I think probably one of the first initial concerns that
spk_0
would pop up is, but this is not possible for me in my current career situation. I know when I was
spk_0
still practicing medicine, I was in a very small private practice. I was working typical, you know,
spk_0
60 hour a week full time for a physician. And there were only three physicians in our private
spk_0
practice who did the type of practice that I did. And even when one of us would take off, the
spk_0
other two would cover, you know, the full workload. And it was hard to do for a week that I can't
spk_0
imagine if at that time I had come to them and said, you know, I really want to take a month to
spk_0
go do something else. I would probably been terrified to even bring that up because my thought
spk_0
would have been that this is not possible for the practice to sustain. And I think there's probably
spk_0
a lot of people, again, especially in medicine where so many practices or work environments run
spk_0
very, very lean. You already feel this register your own capacity and what you're doing. And you
spk_0
may be irreplaceable for other reasons, right? Maybe you're the only person in your entire group
spk_0
or company who does one particular function. So how do you suggest that people kind of face some
spk_0
of these concerns about feeling like I'm either too important or too irreplaceable? So this is a
spk_0
great idea for other people, but I just don't see how it's going to work for me. I think about one
spk_0
of the questions I would ask is like, if you left and they had to replace you, how long will that take?
spk_0
How long of a process is that before the next person comes in and is like up to speed? And
spk_0
for a lot of positions that are hard to fill for a lot of important positions, it's a good bit.
spk_0
It might be three months, it might be six months. And so you taking a month off is actually the
spk_0
easier, quicker, cheaper solution than that position being empty for three months. And so you're
spk_0
presenting two different challenges. I'm gone for a month, but I come back and you get this awesome
spk_0
person who comes back or you're going to sit with this empty for months on end. And hopefully the
spk_0
next person that comes in is as good as me. But I've heard, especially it's interesting, especially
spk_0
in healthcare, there is an option of bringing in temporary workers for a month for three months.
spk_0
And it's expensive. And I've heard dentists and physical therapists, they're like, yeah, I can do
spk_0
that. Like that is a thing in our industry. People come for three months, since when I have
spk_0
maternity leave or whatever, but it's expensive, especially if you own your private practice,
spk_0
that feels like a huge cost to burden, especially if you're going to do this multiple times. And
spk_0
I had a dentist that was like, gosh, yeah, I can do it theoretically. Super expensive. But if you
spk_0
think about your long term financial planning, and if you think about, I could probably do this
spk_0
career till I'm 55, before I start running a lot of risk, this is going to shorten my lifespan.
spk_0
What if you did many retirements and they were expensive, but it increased your career from 55 to
spk_0
60 or to 63 over all your financial health is going to be so much more robust. Even if we just
spk_0
think about like the compound interest on seven years, typically your money will double seven to
spk_0
10 years. So if you can work an extra 10 years, you're going to return with twice as much money.
spk_0
So the long term investment can be financially worth it. So I would look at if it's your own private
spk_0
practice building that into this structure, like this is the cost of me having a long sustainable
spk_0
career. But in those small practices, like I had someone who's like a financial advisor,
spk_0
he works 60 hours a week, super involved, absolutely essential to what he did. And a family member
spk_0
unexpectedly died. And it just broke him. And he was like, yep, not coming in. I don't know how long
spk_0
but I'm not coming in. And they figure it out. You know, you can figure it out. But the great
spk_0
thing about many retirements is that you can do some planning and some preparation to ease that
spk_0
burden on everyone. But in a small group, it might be worth having the conversation of like,
spk_0
how do we make this work for all of us? How do we make this more sustainable for everyone to
spk_0
survive in our careers long term versus this short kind of short-sighted system? And for people who
spk_0
know they do want to take a mini retirement, let's say they're an employed position. So they have a
spk_0
boss or they have an employer and they need to run this by them, especially if there is no company
spk_0
policy around extended leaves or no formal mini retirement policy. Hopefully that becomes a thing
spk_0
in the future, but I think for many places it's not yet. How can people frame wanting to take
spk_0
this type of career break to their employer in a way that actually maximizes their chances of
spk_0
success at having their employer grant their request? And are there specific steps that people can
spk_0
take in preparation to have this type of conversation with an employer? Yeah, absolutely. And you want
spk_0
to do some preparation. This is not something you can just go and like dump on your boss like,
spk_0
peace out. I'm noticing all your faces like I'm gone for three months. So you want to do a little
spk_0
bit of preparation. I have people start by kind of crafting how they're going to describe this story
spk_0
and creating that narrative ahead of time. And I encourage people to try to include four elements.
spk_0
Make it positive. Like it doesn't have to be a negative thing. You know, find the positive spin on
spk_0
it during your time off. Do something interesting. If possible, you know, maybe that's hiking the
spk_0
Camino. Maybe that's doing a road trip with your kids. Maybe it's training for a triathlon for
spk_0
your 50 of birthday, you know, and then make it specific. Like all of those things I mentioned
spk_0
are very specific things versus I want to improve my health. Maybe you are training for a race.
spk_0
Maybe you're going to a yoga retreat in Thailand for three weeks. Like maybe you're doing a
spk_0
meditation retreat. Maybe you're doing intensive therapy, but you have a specific way that you're
spk_0
improving your health. Same with I want to spend more time with my kids. Come up with a specific
spk_0
way. They're going to be spending more time with your kids. And then the fourth one is try to frame
spk_0
it as a one time event. This isn't something I'm going to do every single year. This is kind of a
spk_0
one off. I was interviewing someone that said he actually did this requested time off before him
spk_0
and his wife decided to start having kids. He was like, Hey, look, we're kind of thinking we're
spk_0
getting to that point. That season of our life. We want to do a big trip through Asia before we
spk_0
have little kids. And so, you know, it was very positive. It was interesting. It was specific.
spk_0
It was clearly a one time event. And you can get a really positive reception. Those are all
spk_0
ways that kind of emotionally pull people in to that story. And then the second half is doing the
spk_0
preparation of what are the problems this is going to cause. And what are solutions that I can come up
spk_0
with and have both of those like in when I do group coaching, we write two columns. Like, let's
spk_0
think through all of these. What are all the challenges and what are all the potential solutions
spk_0
because you want to come and it sounds a little bit counterintuitive, but you want to articulate
spk_0
those challenges for your boss. Don't leave it on them to be like, but what about A, B and C?
spk_0
Say, no, I know you might be concerned about A and you might be thinking like B could be really
spk_0
challenging. And I know C is coming up, but here are some solutions that I think of how this could
spk_0
work for everyone. Now, on kind of the back end of our mini retirement, if someone is positioning
spk_0
in a mini retirement, sort of in between career moves where maybe they are separating from one
spk_0
employer or, you know, sort of one job that they've done, they take a mini retirement,
spk_0
they're going to come back into the workforce. How do you suggest that people approach explaining
spk_0
career gaps to employers? I will add to that in that sometimes, you know, when you mentioned like a
spk_0
small clinic, three doctors, doing repeated small mini retirements can be logistically challenging
spk_0
if you guys together as a team don't want to rally behind the idea. So I do see a lot of people
spk_0
in medical professions just planning those natural breaks like after my school, after residency,
spk_0
after my first job, I'll work here for like three or four years, I'm going to take three months off
spk_0
or I'm going to take six months off and giving themselves that time when it's less logistically
spk_0
challenging in a way. I actually had a client whose sister was a doctor. She was my client was a
spk_0
therapist and I think because you know, they have been chatting about all this kind of stuff and
spk_0
her sister was super burned out and just went in and was like, yeah, I'm quitting. I can't do this.
spk_0
Like I'm so burned out, I need to go do something else for a year and had no plan to like ask for
spk_0
time off and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, okay,
spk_0
how about you just go do your thing for a year, you rest, you recover, that's great, that's awesome.
spk_0
Just come back, will you please come back like in a year, would you just please promise to come
spk_0
back here? I would really want you to come back. And that can be a great alternative too is you
spk_0
might need to separate from your company technically with the understanding that as soon as you're
spk_0
ready to come back, whether that six months or 12 months, they'll still have open positions.
spk_0
Like they'll have, they'll still need people to do your job. And so you can seamlessly go back
spk_0
into that. But in explaining it, I would use that same four part framework of here was something
spk_0
really positive and interesting and specific and a one time thing that I went and did during this
spk_0
time off and kind of knowing the cultural context of that. Some companies, some organizations have a
spk_0
work and a work like dogs here, like it's super intense, you know, especially in tech, it has
spk_0
this very much like this has to be your whole life and whole personality if you're going to work
spk_0
at a startup kind of vibe. And so you can kind of add that to your narrative of I love to go all
spk_0
into my work. I like to be fully mentally and emotionally present there. And to some degree,
spk_0
I bankrupt my personal life in that process because I give so much at work. But this is how that
spk_0
works for me. I did a big capital investment in my relationships. I saw all my family, I saw all
spk_0
my friends took her in my health. I recovered from burnout because I'm going to burn myself out again.
spk_0
But now that I'm rested and all cut up on life and on my personal life, now I get to go all in on
spk_0
my career again. And that kind of almost like interval training works for a lot of people. I think
spk_0
more than we like to admit that we do best in like sprints and rests. That steady state marathoner,
spk_0
like that's some people's personality. They will just work nine to five, 50 weeks a year for
spk_0
40 years straight. And they like that, that pacing. A lot of people we like to go hard. We'd like to
spk_0
be mentally and emotionally and physically all in. But then we just need time to recover. I was
spk_0
she loves like that almost impossible problem where it takes two or three weeks of just like
spk_0
intense focus and energy and time. She's like, but then I need 24 hours or 48 hours to just recover.
spk_0
And I'm like, as his employer is like to know that about your employees and be like, yes,
spk_0
that's a great deal for us. Like you should 100% do that. And in between jobs, your next employer
spk_0
didn't have to pay for that at all. It was not inconvenient to them. It cost them nothing. So like,
spk_0
it's a huge bonus that you went and took care of yourself because now you can be all in again.
spk_0
Amazing. And so that's kind of how people can think about strategizing,
spk_0
getting over some of the career related obstacles or concerns they may have about taking
spk_0
him any retirement. But let's hit the other major concern that you already brought up and that I
spk_0
think is going to be so common for people, which are the financial related concerns. And I think
spk_0
probably people are either thinking I make too much money to step away from what I'm doing to
spk_0
take any sort of break or I don't make enough yet or I'm not in the financial position yet to be
spk_0
able, you know, to accommodate a mini retirement. So can you talk a little bit about, is there
spk_0
even a baseline budget for a typical mini retirement? And what are some of the best ways for people
spk_0
to begin to financially prepare for a mini retirement? Yeah. So like I said, you know,
spk_0
max budget do 50% of your take home pay. So your worst case scenario is your 100% of your take home
spk_0
pay plus 50%. And it doesn't even necessarily have to be 100% of your take home pay if you don't
spk_0
spend all of that. If you're saving 30% of your income, then you only need 70%. You don't need to
spk_0
say for that month. And so it doesn't have to be tremendously expensive. In the book, I outlined
spk_0
kind of this, this outrageous idea. But what if we took a month off every other year?
spk_0
How much would we have, like how much would that cost? And that's assuming that whole month is
spk_0
entirely unpaid. You have you're not adding any PTO or vacation time or anything to that. You
spk_0
know, you haven't been laid off and get a severance, which is like a perfect mini retirement
spk_0
opportunity. And you're doing that max 50% budget every single time. It's 6.5%. That's how much it
spk_0
costs. 6.5% to cover 100% of your take home pay and an additional 50%. And that, you know, it scales
spk_0
whether you're bringing home 2000 or 20,000. It's 6.5%. So I encourage people to start to look at
spk_0
what are ways to grow that gap between their income and their expenses. And for each person,
spk_0
it's going to be there's different things that are going to be high leverage. Some people adding
spk_0
a little bit of extra work massively, financially beneficial. Some people have expenses that
spk_0
they don't really question and maybe don't add a ton of value to their life, but are pretty
spk_0
substantial. I had a client who's actually a physician and you know, thought that they were pretty
spk_0
frugal. Thought that they were like doing pretty good, but they weren't making a ton of financial
spk_0
progress. And so we just started tracking. And they realized that they were spending about $700
spk_0
a month on wine. And they're like, oh, we don't drink that much. They're like, but we go out to
spk_0
$80. Well, just that. Okay, we're at quite a few hundred dollars. And they're like, we might buy
spk_0
like one nice bottle at home a week. Like, though, like it wasn't substantial, but it was $700 a
spk_0
month. And they're like, oh, that, well, we enjoy that. It's not actually adding $700 worth of
spk_0
value for us in this season of our life because she really wanted to take a mini retirement. She was
spk_0
super burned out. So mini retirement way more beneficial than like a nice bottle of wine at dinner.
spk_0
So it was an easy swap. And so the great thing about this is that once you have your ideal budget
spk_0
for this, you know what it's going to cost. This isn't something 30 years in the future. This is
spk_0
something you're going to do next year or the year after. And so you're not swapping the wine
spk_0
now at dinner for no wine. You're swapping the wine for dinner now for the nice bottle. You're
spk_0
moving it to the future a little bit. So it doesn't have to be, you know, six and a half percent.
spk_0
If you strategize this long term, that might be one year's raise for someone. If one year you get a
spk_0
raise that's six and a half percent, and you set that aside for the rest of your life, that would
spk_0
fund an entire lifetime of many retirements. A really kind of closely related financial topic
spk_0
that I think will probably be top of many people's minds is what do we do about health insurance
spk_0
coverage? Not only is it incredibly expensive, but so many people, you know, have their health
spk_0
insurance through their employer. And so if they're thinking about taking a step away from their work
spk_0
for four weeks or like you said, maybe six months or even up to a year, I imagine that a lot of people
spk_0
are going to be very concerned about this one particular aspect. And how is it that you've advised
spk_0
people to approach retaining their health insurance coverage or what types of strategies are useful
spk_0
for people specifically around health insurance? Yeah. So if you're taking a month off, you should be
spk_0
able to stay on your current health insurance. And sometimes there's ways you can negotiate that.
spk_0
I talk a lot about negotiating in the book in the employment section. You know, there's a number of
spk_0
things that you could do even, let's say if you're in health care saying like I'll be on call
spk_0
like twice that month that I'm gone. If I can stay on the health care, if you'll cover my portion
spk_0
of the health care while I'm gone, or sometimes people negotiate to where they still get like 10%
spk_0
of their pay, they'll do these one or two things for that 10% because that 10% covers the regular
spk_0
contributions to health care and whatnot. So logistically, it's a little bit easier. So staying on it,
spk_0
if you're going to do a little bit longer of a money retirement, maybe and you have a working spouse,
spk_0
maybe you piggyback on their health insurance and switch that in the six to 12 month range.
spk_0
You know, you have a lot of options for if people have a lot of medical things going on or coming up
spk_0
planned, just staying on Cobra can be a really simple solution. It's probably not the cheapest
spk_0
solution, be to switch doctors, you know, just switch providers like you don't have to figure out a
spk_0
new system. So just asking HR like, what is that dollar amount? And I think for Americans,
spk_0
the hardest part of that is that we hate paying for health care. It's like the worst, most annoying
spk_0
expense. It's like me paying for snow tires. I hate buying snow tires so much. There's no joy there.
spk_0
They're like hundreds and hundreds of dollars and it's just annoying to have them put on, but I live
spk_0
in Montana. So like it's part of life. But they're again looking at it like it's part of life. I have
spk_0
maybe a car payment and maybe you have student loan debt. You have a house payment. Like you have
spk_0
these big bills. But when we're talking about six months, let's say it's an extra thousand dollars
spk_0
a month, which is a bummer because health care is stupid to spend that much money. But it's an extra
spk_0
thousand dollars a month and you're going to be at a work for six months. Well, in reality, it's
spk_0
$6,000. Like how much are your plane tickets going to be? How much is your hotel's going to be? Like
spk_0
how much are these other elements of your budget going to be? And just budgeting it like it's any
spk_0
other, any other expense. And there's lots of different things you can do for longer many
spk_0
returns. I find in certain professions, it's a little bit logistically challenging to take off
spk_0
more than 12 months, you know, in medical, there's like licensing and like all this stuff. So keeping
spk_0
that at six months makes it easier on the health care side, makes it easier on the affordability,
spk_0
and you don't run into all of those other logistical challenges. So we've talked a little bit about
spk_0
some career related concerns and then also financial concerns that come up commonly for people
spk_0
around mini retirements. But I'm curious, are there other concerns or objections that you've seen
spk_0
that people have about mini retirements that because of your experience, having walked so many
spk_0
people through this process that you actually think shouldn't be reasons for them, you know, to stop
spk_0
moving forward with a mini retirement? You know, a lot of the concerns that people have are around
spk_0
employment, financial, health care. It's funny. Those usually aren't the things that go wrong. Like
spk_0
usually that goes so much better than people planned, you know, even these around the world trips,
spk_0
because I interview a lot of people in my podcast who've done them, they're bizarrely affordable,
spk_0
like just bizarrely affordable. You know, I, the last guy I interviewed, they did six months,
spk_0
and I think for each person it was like $9,400 for all six months. I'm like, that's not per month.
spk_0
It's like all six months. It's just so bizarrely affordable. And for medical professionals,
spk_0
there again, you know, there's a lot of ideas of like you don't have agency and you can't do things.
spk_0
And the reality is, man, they need medical professionals everywhere. Like it is an
spk_0
in-demand career. I mean, I don't know hundreds of doctors, but I haven't, I haven't met one
spk_0
that's like, man, I've been out of work for two years. I can't find anything. I've applied ever,
spk_0
no, there's places, there's jobs out there. So it's usually not that stuff that goes
spk_0
but there are a lot of things that go wrong. If you've done something intense for about 15 years,
spk_0
15 to 20 years, I find is that breaking point, whether that was school, whether that was your job,
spk_0
whatever it was, if you've gone basically non-stop at an intense level, maybe from 15 to 35 or 20 to 40,
spk_0
but in that 15 year mark, especially people had a wall. Like they've been outrunning an avalanche
spk_0
and it worked until it doesn't. And then you feel that you're losing ground. You can't run as fast
spk_0
as the snow is catching up to you. And so one of the ways a many retirement can kind of go off the
spk_0
rails is that people are a lot more burned out than they thought they were burned out. Honestly,
spk_0
it's an incredible, amazing survival skill. Like the human body is so fascinating to me because
spk_0
it allows us to get through very difficult situations. We can migrate away from famine, we can
spk_0
exit war zones, we can do really hard things for a really long period of time because of burnout,
spk_0
because it reduces our creativity, it increases our focus, it gives us like, I don't know,
spk_0
that adrenaline and that cortisol to keep moving when we're fatigued and tired, which is so cool,
spk_0
but the function of it is to get us out of a bad situation and we use it to try to survive in a bad
spk_0
situation. I'm like, oh, I have this superpowers. I'll just stay. It's like, if you realize,
spk_0
oh, I'm really good at running away from a bear, maybe I should just like be chased by bears all the
spk_0
time. Like, is I'm awesome at this? I'm doing so good. So it is almost like if you've ever done
spk_0
fasting, when you're fasting, you don't feel tremendously hungry all the time. Like that,
spk_0
that kind of goes away and that's a really cool function because it allows you to keep moving
spk_0
to find food eventually. But once you have access to food, you feel hungry and you feel really hungry
spk_0
and you will feel hungry until your body replaces everything that it lost during that fasting.
spk_0
For days, weeks, months, that increased hunger will persist and it's the same with burnout and
spk_0
rest. You might not feel super tired because burnouts like gotten you through and that's so incredible.
spk_0
But once your body senses, oh, we have access to rest, all of a sudden you will start to feel the
spk_0
full weight of that tiredness and you might feel tired for a real long time. And so people are like,
spk_0
my mini retirement, I'm going to clean out my garage and I'm going to train for a marathon,
spk_0
I'm going to lose weight. This is going to be awesome. And then they're like, and I'm napping.
spk_0
And I'm napping a lot and it can be a little, it can kind of mess with with their minds a little
spk_0
bit. And I think one of the things that is probably interesting in your experiencing so many people
spk_0
craft different types of mini retirements, different lengths of mini retirements, different
spk_0
objectives for their mini retirements is that I've never, again, at least not in my conceptualization
spk_0
of mini retirement. I took time off in between undergrad and medical school, but I didn't consider
spk_0
retirement because I'd never made any money. So yeah, I was stepping away from a paid job in any way.
spk_0
But I wonder if the process of planning a mini retirement is similar to the way that I experienced
spk_0
planning a trip, which is it's very idealized, right? It's like the whole thing is going to be
spk_0
incredible. And there's so much fun and anticipation in thinking about it and creating it and
spk_0
anticipating actually going on that trip and these elements that you've put into play.
spk_0
And I'm wondering how often you see somebody's experience of their mini retirement,
spk_0
not actually just being 100% pure joy and ease once they get there. And what is that process
spk_0
of the emotional highs and the lows that might come with a mini retirement? And how can people
spk_0
successfully navigate that? Yeah, the phrase that I encourage you will be used because a number
spk_0
of different things can go wrong is at least I'm on a mini retirement. You know, if you are struggling
spk_0
with this burnout and I kind of compare it to like recovering from the flu, you're tired,
spk_0
you're kind of groggy, you don't feel motivated to like unload the dishwasher, but what people
spk_0
will internalize and that self-talk will be, am I not motivated? Am I lazy? Am I not capable of
spk_0
structuring my time outside of work and they start to create all of these stories? And instead,
spk_0
just being like, huh, I feel kind of tired. I guess I should take a nap. Good thing I'm on a mini
spk_0
retirement and just accepting that. Or you're traveling and you want to do all these things and
spk_0
you realize, oh, this pace, I paced it like a vacation, but this is much longer.
spk_0
Like I need to pace this differently. Just be like, oh, yeah, I'm on a mini retirement. Like I
spk_0
I don't have to get all this done in the next four days. I can be flexible and I can adjust plans
spk_0
or sometimes, you know, that avalanche that we've been running from, especially in really
spk_0
eye-performing people is like low-grade trauma and we overcompensated and overperformed our whole
spk_0
life. And it was like awesome. It was like the perfect sprinkling of trauma that like made a super
spk_0
successful adults, but at some point that catches up in a mini retirement. Now you have time and
spk_0
you have space and you get to sit with your own thoughts and you get to feel your feelings and
spk_0
your body is like, oh, perfect. We have time to process all this now because you were so busy
spk_0
with that other stuff. And now you're processing these things and you're like, well, this is a bummer.
spk_0
Like I thought I was just supposed to be happy all the time. Why am I dealing with my childhood
spk_0
stuff? But instead, you could say, man, it's a really good thing I'm on a mini retirement. Like,
spk_0
now I have the time and space to take care of this stuff. Yeah, I imagine that
spk_0
mini retirements can take so many different shapes and forms that they can perform so many different
spk_0
functions and impacts on your life depending on, you know, what you created them for and just where
spk_0
you are. And I was curious if you'd be willing to share some of the stories about some of the most
spk_0
impactful mini retirements that you've taken and why they mattered to you so much at those specific
spk_0
times in your life, most of them. But like you said, many retirements are a little bit of a
spk_0
Swiss army knife. Like they put so many different functions, so many different uses. I did a month
spk_0
off in my 20s to do a month of like intensive outpatient therapy. And it was, I mean, awful
spk_0
and amazing. Like it was like a full house renovation. It's like, okay, we're going to take this
spk_0
down to the studs. We're going to redo the wiring. We're going to do the plumbing. Where if I would have
spk_0
done that one hour a week for years and years and years, it'd have been like little tweaks.
spk_0
This was like very intensive. There again, a capital investment, that paid dividends every
spk_0
single year ever since. Like such a good investment of my time and energy and money. You know,
spk_0
I mentioned I took a month off to learn tango. And part of that was sometimes I do this
spk_0
visualization when I'm making big choices of my 80 year old self. Like if I was talking to my 80
spk_0
year old self, what's her opinion on this? What's her perspective? When she looks back over the
spk_0
decades, how does she feel about this? And she was jazzed about the tango. She was like, yes,
spk_0
oh my gosh, thank you so much for doing that. So affordable, so easy. Like now I have all these
spk_0
friends and I'm so fit and like I'm healthy and it's mentally engaging and it's socially engaging.
spk_0
And like my life is significantly better because I've known tango for 40 years. You know, I did a
spk_0
10 week road trip with my kiddos to 10 National Parks and pop up campers when they were all
spk_0
itchy, pizzy and now they're all gigantic. And I look back on that trip so fondly because like I
spk_0
can never recreate that. We can never do that kind of thing again and just share the sheer beauty
spk_0
and fun and adventure of the National Parks Out West with my kiddos. Like they're getting in the
spk_0
moment just like any trip. It's strollers and like Ziploc bags full of Cheerios and car seats
spk_0
and like umbrellas because it's raining. Like it's a little bit of a mixed bag when you're in it.
spk_0
But man, when I look back, I don't think about the fact that like we showed up in Zion. There's
spk_0
like 42 degrees. We're like, oh my gosh, it's so cold. We did not bring winter coats. I don't look
spk_0
about that. I just think about when we did this hiking for some reason at this most beautiful
spk_0
like, this most beautiful vista, there was no one else there. And I'm like, we're all the people
spk_0
and we just played in the water and it was like, I have a couple pictures of that and every time I see
spk_0
those pictures, I've just transported back to this moment in my life that I'll never be able to
spk_0
recreate. But in the rear view mirror, the meaningfulness of those expands. Many retirements are a
spk_0
hassle straight up. They're a hassle. But the further away you get, you kind of like the
spk_0
the hassle gets smaller and smaller and smaller and sometimes you kind of forget about it. But that
spk_0
meaningfulness expands. Those are really beautiful stories. Thank you for sharing those with us.
spk_0
And I think that can be so easy to be in the routine of your life, you know, especially if you
spk_0
have a career, if you have a family, if you care, take, you know, anybody or anything, you know,
spk_0
you can very much kind of get into a day after day after day type of routine. So kind of hearing about
spk_0
how somebody else, you know, has incorporated in these really meaningful many breaks into their life.
spk_0
I think hopefully we'll create a lot of inspiration for people to start thinking about what would
spk_0
that look like in their own life. And I am just so curious to hear since you're such an expert
spk_0
at many retirements, do you already have another one planned? And since you've taken so many already,
spk_0
what do you want to do with your next mini retirement that you haven't done before that you think
spk_0
would be the next most meaningful thing for you? So I'm still obsessed with Tango. So there's probably
spk_0
going to be a strong Tango element. But in this point in my life, when I think about like that 80-year-old
spk_0
version of myself, she's really concerned about the breadth and the depth of my relationships
spk_0
and my physical health. Tango's part of that physical health, but I find spending time with people
spk_0
I love so meaningful and many retirements are a fantastic opportunity to strengthen those week
spk_0
connections. Your friends from college, your second cousins that you never see anymore,
spk_0
you know, those people, professional friends that you guys don't work together anymore,
spk_0
it gives me the time and ability to spend three days to go visit for four days. Like, it doesn't,
spk_0
you don't need huge chunks of time, but when you can invest in those, like, because then you can
spk_0
go back to work and you can maintain because you've like bolstered that foundation. And friendships
spk_0
are bizarrely impactful on our happiness, on our health, on our longevity, on our mental health,
spk_0
like, then you know they're fun and supportive. So for me, those are good capital investments.
spk_0
Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you for coming on today and sharing everything that you
spk_0
know about creating, crafting, enjoying, many retirements with us. This has been such a great
spk_0
and fun conversation. I appreciate your time so much for people who want to learn more about you,
spk_0
what you do, and explore how many retirements might fit into their own life and career.
spk_0
Where can people find you? Yeah, professionally, retireoften.com. You can get the book there.
spk_0
I've got a workbook, group coaching. I've got a newsletter that's super random and weird.
spk_0
If you like random and weird things, that will be right up your alley. But I do some business
spk_0
coaching and consulting. So like, if you're like, yeah, we have a business we want to do this,
spk_0
but that's we don't know how to do it. There is kind of a consistent process to getting that done.
spk_0
And then on social media, I'm at Gillian John's word. Thank you so much. We'll include all of
spk_0
that information on all of those links in the episode show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today.
spk_0
I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Point Me
spk_0
to First Class. If you want more tips on turning your expenses into travel, visit pointmeattofirstclass.com
spk_0
to learn more. See you next week.