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Why Can't They Just Get Over It

In this episode of 'Why Can't They Just Get Over It', we explore how unresolved trauma from the past can impact present relationships. By understanding the emotional triggers and reacti...

Why Can't They Just Get Over It
Why Can't They Just Get Over It
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spk_0 It's a Friday night and Mia and James are sitting in the car after dinner. The silence between
spk_0 them feels heavier than the air outside. James finally blirts out, why can't you just let it go?
spk_0 I forgot to text. I didn't mean anything by it. Mia stares out the window, her arms crossed
spk_0 tight against her chest. What James can't see is that his small forgetfulness scraped against
spk_0 an old scar. As a kid, Mia often felt invisible. Her birthday forgotten, her needs overlooked,
spk_0 her feelings brushed aside. When James doesn't follow through, her body reacts as though she's
spk_0 right back in that childhood living room alone, unimportant, bracing herself, her heart races,
spk_0 her throat, heightens, and the anger comes up hot. Mia tried to explain herself. It just really
spk_0 hurts and it seems like you don't care. James is aware of Mia's history, but he's a pretty
spk_0 attentive partner. He feels like he's always trying to make up for the shortcomings of her
spk_0 parents, so he decides to let her know. I am not your parents. I love you and I forgot to text you,
spk_0 and that's all it was. James thinks he's dealing with tonight. Mia's body thinks it's dealing with
spk_0 years of not being seen. And this is what trauma does in our relationships. It makes the present
spk_0 feel like the past. It hijacks the nervous system and it pushes partners into protection mode,
spk_0 whether that looks like anger, withdrawal, or suspicion. And the most frustrating part,
spk_0 you can't just reason your way out of it. Trauma doesn't respond to logic or just get over it.
spk_0 It responds to safety, to being understood, to someone saying, it makes sense that it hurts.
spk_0 I want to stay with you. So when we ask, well, why can't my partner just get over it? The real
spk_0 question is, are we willing to be curious about the scar underneath the reaction?
spk_0 Wow. The trauma therapist and Mia is so proud of that interest.
spk_0 I'm nervous though. I was like, I'm making some bold claims here and so we're going to see
spk_0 how this lands with Lauren. I'm impressed. Yeah. I think you hit on so many of the themes that I
spk_0 want to talk about as we get into this topic today about how trauma or some of the past wounds
spk_0 that our nervous systems hold really can show up in our relationships. And it can be a really,
spk_0 really tricky thing between us in a relationship to understand, why do I see my partner reacting
spk_0 in this way that's seemingly unreasonable or disproportionate to what I see happened here,
spk_0 or irrational in some way. And we can get so stuck in this like, okay, I'm sorry. Like,
spk_0 it wasn't that big of a deal. Let's move on. But I think you did such a good job naming.
spk_0 There's so many activating things happening. Like I loved when you were describing like my throat
spk_0 tightens and I'm feeling sensation in my chest and my body and my mind is racing. And it's like
spk_0 my partner thinks we're talking about something that's just here and now. But I maybe all of a
spk_0 sudden feel like a five year old who just felt really let down or neglected. Yeah. I think I just
spk_0 want to commend the James in this scenario because he was really kind. And while he doesn't quite
spk_0 understand it because it's not happening to him, right? It's not happening in his body. He does have
spk_0 some awareness of what has happened to Mia. And so he's able to somewhat hold some understanding
spk_0 for her. Yeah. I like that you're naming that that like there's still a kindness there. But there's
spk_0 also a frustration and like I think it's important for people to recognize. Like you can be kind
spk_0 of doing both at the same time or feeling both at the same time. Like he's not saying just get over
spk_0 it. You know, obviously there's levels to dismissiveness. And so you might be the partner that you're
spk_0 like I'm kind, I'm attentive. Like I get it to some degree. And it's still landing a certain way
spk_0 for your partner. Yeah. And I will say as a couples therapist who often works with couples who
spk_0 have their own histories of trauma and honestly often on both sides of the relationship, it can go
spk_0 way faster than this. The cycle can come in so quick. And you know, it also sounds like Mia has
spk_0 some awareness of her own trauma history and doesn't maybe think it's just this time in the moment,
spk_0 right? She's like, well, yeah, this is reminding me of this that have happened before. But what I'll
spk_0 see in my office is just this complete unawareness of what this is connected back to. And so in these
spk_0 present moments where James forgets to text, it actually does feel that big and intense. And there's
spk_0 like a lack of understanding even about, you know, why this feels so big for me. I just know it does.
spk_0 Yeah, I would say I see the same thing, especially working with couples, but even if I just have one
spk_0 of the partners sitting in my office, you know, maybe venting or trying to regulate through like,
spk_0 oh, my partner didn't show up for me in this way or they hit this wound, you know, and generally
spk_0 the mind is just focused on like my partners a bad guy in this moment, you know, like my partner did
spk_0 something hurtful. If they really cared about me, they wouldn't do this. And it actually is really
spk_0 challenging, I think, for people to go a few layers deeper and look at like this isn't just about
spk_0 what my partner did. It's actually like touching this narrative or this belief that goes way,
spk_0 way back to a younger experience. Yeah, I think that's often something that we have to discover
spk_0 through therapy and just wanted to show our listeners that it can look very different for all
spk_0 kinds of relationships. And while we're talking today about an intimate relationship, I'm sure we'll
spk_0 touch to on even friends that have intense reactions on our parents, whom I react in big ways.
spk_0 And just having some clarity around maybe the why that this happens this way. Yeah. The last thing I
spk_0 just wanted to highlight from that intro story culture is I think you did lay it out in a really
spk_0 generous organized way where, you know, Mia is bringing some of this awareness and James is able
spk_0 to acknowledge like, I know that this is in your history and I'm not your parents. But there is
spk_0 this real thing that can happen even if we have done some of that work to have the awareness
spk_0 where there's the frustration that you name can still be there at the end. And I hear a lot of people
spk_0 ask this question in my office, like, how do I find that line between like it feels like I'm just
spk_0 enabling this like my partner just wants me to never trigger them, but I'm human too. And I can't
spk_0 always avoid hitting their triggers. I'm not intentionally trying to do it. Or maybe, you know,
spk_0 the trauma that's sitting with the partner is preventing them from being as close to me as I'm
spk_0 desiring. And so there's this frustration of like, I can understand it and I can care, but also
spk_0 it can't just stay this way. Like this is not working relationally. Yeah. And how human of that partner
spk_0 who wants this connection and can see that this, you know, trauma history, this intensity is a
spk_0 block for that. And it is frustrating, but that is frustrating because it's out of your control too,
spk_0 which is the other hard part, right? I mean, that's some of it is, you know, related to how much
spk_0 safety you can bring to the relationship. But also, I know we're going to talk about this, but
spk_0 really like a long process. Yeah. So I mean, we're already kind of discussing some of the examples
spk_0 of like how trauma can impact our relationships, but I want to even just start with like two categories
spk_0 that we really will see. And then I'll define trauma in a moment. So everybody knows explicitly
spk_0 what we're talking about. But when there is something that's like really unresolved from our past,
spk_0 that can still get activated in our body. So that increased sensitivity could result in more of a
spk_0 reactivity where we see somebody getting big and kind of going into like a fight mode, like pushing back
spk_0 to get away from that feeling. So maybe I'm defending or I'm shifting the blame to you.
spk_0 I'm thinking of that increased sensitivity is something that maybe feels kind of like disproportionate
spk_0 to you that it's as the other partner. It is like, okay, like this thing happened and it
spk_0 seemed like a really big deal to you. Like this feels like a three out of 10 to me, but you're
spk_0 reacting like an eight out of 10. That's kind of what that increased sensitivity looks like.
spk_0 Yeah. I also think that it feels like if I'm on the other side of it, it feels like you're fighting me.
spk_0 Like you're coming at me. And now I'm getting really defensive. Like why are you putting all this
spk_0 blame on? Like why are you coming at me with this like fight energy? When really for the other
spk_0 person, they're fighting against like, I don't want this feeling to get touched. Okay. So just to make
spk_0 this part clear, if the reaction feels like it's dialed up and it's really intense compared to
spk_0 what the action or inaction was, that could be an indicator that somebody is responding from like a
spk_0 fight response. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I call it like a when we think of like our fighter flight
spk_0 impulse, it's like a fight impulse. And what happens when that gets activated for us is we really
spk_0 shift out of the ability to stay socially engaged. You know, like to stay in connection that feels
spk_0 really like safe and curious and caring. We have to have enough sense of safety that it's like,
spk_0 oh, wait, that didn't make sense. Let's get curious about that. Let me take another pass at that.
spk_0 Let me ask you another question. And when a really intense feeling gets hit, it can put our brain
spk_0 into this like self preservation mode where it's like, I no longer care about the connection here.
spk_0 And again, this is where it's like, it looks like I'm fighting you because really I'm trying to
spk_0 defend against something internally that's coming up. Yeah, because you activated a trauma trigger.
spk_0 And so now my body is sort of, I was used as like metaphor of like these like sunglasses flip on
spk_0 the eyes. And now I'm like seeing you as the Trump initial trauma. And I don't see you as my partner
spk_0 anymore. I see you as this thing that really hurt me and scared me. Yeah. Okay. So increased sensitivity
spk_0 sounds like there's other ways that this can impact or show up in our relationships.
spk_0 Yeah. Well, I said there's kind of two general paths. And when we have that increased sensitivity,
spk_0 one path is that reactivity that we'll see. So it's like the fight mode. But the other thing that we
spk_0 can see is just in general, like a lower capacity to engage in vulnerability. So I'm thinking about
spk_0 we didn't episode not too long ago about the fear of intimacy. And I think this is also where
spk_0 trauma can come into play where you know, my partner might want just like more emotional depth
spk_0 and closeness. Like I want to know how you're feeling. I want to know how something impacted you.
spk_0 I want you to be able to hold space for my really deep feelings. And something that can happen
spk_0 with trauma is it's like these feelings are too intense. So I actually can't hold space for them.
spk_0 I can't tolerate my noriars. Okay. So a low capacity for vulnerability. And you're we're kind of
spk_0 talking around a little bit like I'm wondering if we could get to some sort of like example of like
spk_0 what does that look like for me to be sitting in front of my partner and you know and recognize that
spk_0 they're having a low capacity for vulnerability. Like how is that going to be shown? Can we use Mia and James
spk_0 as like the example for we do whatever we want. Okay, but cool. Like there was something that stood out to
spk_0 you from their. Well, I just wonder like if let's say Jane or Mia, since she's the one that was
spk_0 experiencing the history of trauma, if she was in a low capacity and James gave her feedback about
spk_0 maybe like what that was like to get this reaction from her for the text message,
spk_0 what would like a low capacity response look like for me? Because she seemed to be pretty
spk_0 regulated and like able to communicate. I mean, I think it can be on either side of the spectrum.
spk_0 I think it could be like a withdrawn shutdown answer just like, okay, like whatever.
spk_0 Yeah, the thing I think that my mind thinks about is lower capacity is like I just want to keep
spk_0 things surface level. You know, like I want to talk about the weather. I want to talk about sports.
spk_0 I want to talk about where we're going for dinner. But as soon as you start asking or poking at
spk_0 something that feels more emotionally charged, I don't want to go there. Okay, so let's maybe like
spk_0 because of the way the vignette was set up, Mia probably is on that like if anything if she was
spk_0 maybe not as regulated, she might have been in more of that fight mode of like, why don't you
spk_0 have her text me back? Yeah. What's wrong with you? Don't you know the rules of relationships or
spk_0 something like that? And if James maybe was in a lower capacity place, his response would look
spk_0 sort of more like flippant. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you want
spk_0 for me. Yeah, this is not a big deal. Why do you always have to make things such a big deal?
spk_0 Yeah, I think that's actually as you're saying that Kayla and like the way that the story was
spk_0 brought across made me feel like Mia probably actually is going to go more of the reactive route
spk_0 because she protested that she didn't like how this felt. Right? You didn't text me and I felt
spk_0 something and I want to not feel that. So I'm bringing that to you. And then maybe James on the
spk_0 other side, if he had his own like low capacity for deep emotion, would maybe just blame that?
spk_0 Like, well, why are you always so reactive? Like, this is not a big deal. If he would just not
spk_0 make a big deal out of it. If you would just not have feelings that get activated, then I wouldn't
spk_0 have to connect with hard feelings. So it's like, let's just not. Yeah.
spk_0 The vibe. Yeah, that just makes me think of so many couples that I work with and how it can
spk_0 just be such a big miss because we don't have enough context to understand the why behind the
spk_0 big reaction or the why behind the more just like passive response that's connected to something
spk_0 deeper. Yeah. I'd like for us to take a detour to what is trauma because sometimes I think people
spk_0 can start to listen to these conversations. And the word trauma just feels like such a broad brush
spk_0 stroke. Just like everything is trauma or like my partner doesn't have trauma. Like,
spk_0 their parents were fine. Like, you know, they're just boomers. So, you know, they didn't know as much
spk_0 as we do now. And so let's get a little bit of a working definition here. Okay. So trauma
spk_0 is defined as anything that overwhelms our capacity to cope. And the way I even kind of break that
spk_0 down is like, if I have an intense feeling that starts coming up. So let's say it's a feeling of
spk_0 fear or a feeling of disappointment, like intense loss. Like, I really wanted something and I didn't
spk_0 have access to that or maybe helplessness. Like, I want to be able to protect myself here. I want
spk_0 to be able to have a boundary here. But I don't have any options to do that. And so I'm feeling really
spk_0 helpless and maybe really scared. Like, there's a big feeling that comes up and our feelings are meant
spk_0 to point us to a need, right? So maybe the need is safety or the need is some agency in control or
spk_0 the need is comfort and support. And so when we have an experience that overwhelms our capacity to
spk_0 cope, we have this really intense emotion that comes up and we're not able to get the need met
spk_0 that goes with it. And so the way that our brain then has to cope with that is by being like, well,
spk_0 let's just like put that really intense feeling. Like, let's just hit freeze and put that in a box
spk_0 and put that box in a closet and lock the closet higher guards to stand outside of it. And as long
spk_0 as nothing, pokes at that feeling, and I don't have to like remember it outside of the moment where
spk_0 it happened, then I can just kind of keep functioning with my other day-to-day tasks. Like, I can still,
spk_0 you know, once the moment has passed where maybe somebody was, you know, when we think about trauma,
spk_0 it's like it could be something really overt where people think like, oh, somebody was physically
spk_0 hitting me or violating my physical body in some way. Or I watched something really tragic,
spk_0 like the death of one of my witness to something. Yeah, maybe I'm even witnessing our overhearing
spk_0 violence in my home. There's some of these things that are like more obvious, I think, that people
spk_0 are able to recognize like that was clear trauma. But there's also things that we don't necessarily
spk_0 recognize. It's like there was a need almost like instead of a bad thing that happened, it's like
spk_0 there was a good thing that didn't happen. Or like there was like a resource or support that didn't
spk_0 happen in this moment. And it's like once the moment has passed, then our body's like, okay, great,
spk_0 like we're out of that moment. And even though the need didn't get met, I can just kind of like
spk_0 brush my teeth and go to bed and go to school tomorrow. But then the brain has to work really hard
spk_0 to make sure nothing like reminds us of what that feeling is because anytime we get reminded of it,
spk_0 it comes back up with the same intensity and reminds us that we can't cope with it. And that's
spk_0 really overwhelming. I imagine there might be people listening here that are having a hard time
spk_0 differentiating like cycles that couples get into and then cycles that are activated by trauma.
spk_0 And like, you know, is it, and like maybe even this like internal debate, like culture was
spk_0 highlighting of like, is it really trauma? Like, you know, and just kind of like, come on,
spk_0 like, is it really that bad? Yeah, my partners weren't able to meet my needs, but they didn't
spk_0 know any better. And so like, you know, like, oh, well, like, right? So how, I guess I'm wondering
spk_0 like how we can help those people navigate those thoughts that might be coming up or like that
spk_0 confusion about what makes it trauma and is it really that bad? Yeah, it feels like a complex
spk_0 question. And I think it's one that I hear come up time and time again. I mean, in my trauma groups,
spk_0 in my individual office, you know, where people are like, is this trauma? Is this my personality?
spk_0 Is this neurodivergence? Is this, you know, there's so many different factors that contribute to it.
spk_0 But I think that the thing I generally want to help people look at is, am I getting pushed
spk_0 outside of my window of tolerance or, you know, a more layman's way to say that is like, am I losing
spk_0 control of how I'm acting? You know, like, because really when something overwhelms my capacity to
spk_0 cope or I like, go outside of my ability to tolerate emotion, the front part of our brain that
spk_0 is in charge of thinking and strategizing and choosing something that's maybe aligned with our
spk_0 values, it literally goes offline. And so we go into full blown like, you know, instinct, survival,
spk_0 only mode, where now I'm just reacting. And the ways that I'm reacting often are not cute
spk_0 in relationships. And they can be harmful. They can be incredibly frustrating if we're like,
spk_0 just disengaging or shutting down. And so it's like, if you're losing control and you're having
spk_0 a really hard time like getting back into connection with like, what is happening? There's a good
spk_0 chance that it could be trauma or something, trauma adjacent that you need help figuring out how,
spk_0 how do I look at this and stay in my window while I'm looking at it?
spk_0 And I think it's also like being aware of maybe your tendency to judge other people's experience
spk_0 and how their mind and body reacted to a situation that they were in as a young person. And just
spk_0 because maybe that didn't impact you in the same way, that doesn't mean that it doesn't impact
spk_0 another person in a really strong, harmful way. And I think that's the piece that we really just have
spk_0 to take a look at is that it's so unique to each individual person. And if two people are in the
spk_0 same exact scenario, one person's body might interpret that scenario as traumatic and another person
spk_0 wouldn't. And that's not for us to decide if it should or shouldn't be classified as trauma.
spk_0 Totally. Yeah. And the last thing I'll say on this definition of trauma is that, you know, I can't
spk_0 tell you how many people, whether it's people who have like listened to a previous podcast episode
spk_0 or we've talked about trauma and then they reach out to me and they're like, oh my gosh, I
spk_0 listened to that. And I actually didn't realize how much trauma I do have in my life or in my trauma
spk_0 101 group when I'm giving the definition of trauma and people are like, I was actually confused
spk_0 why my therapist referred me to this group because I didn't have any like big overt traumas. But now
spk_0 hearing the definition of, you know, being a child who needed comfort or education about something
spk_0 or guidance and like didn't get that, I'm recognizing how that impacts me. So I want to move us into,
spk_0 you know, where are some of the places that trauma comes from? How can we start to explore that?
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spk_0 And we're back. So as we've been talking a little bit about what trauma is,
spk_0 you know, when we're starting to explore like where does this come from, some of the obvious
spk_0 places we're looking at in childhood are going to be our family of origin, like what was going
spk_0 on in our family dynamics. But even outside of family, you know, looking at our peers, some of
spk_0 the extracurricular communities we might be part of having, you know, coaches, sports, dance,
spk_0 gymnastics, church, culture, groups, you know, things like that, yeah, school, sports.
spk_0 Yep. So there's a lot of places that we want to be able to kind of look back to to think about
spk_0 like where did this intense feeling originate from. Yeah. And I think like the thing that's coming
spk_0 up for me is like maybe the person who's listening and is like, okay, yeah, Lauren, that happened,
spk_0 but it happened in the past. So like shouldn't matter anymore. Now I'm James and I'm safe. And like,
spk_0 I'm, I've proven to you that I'm a good partner. So like why is it still happening?
spk_0 Well, and I even think before we get into that, like let's talk about what are some of the other
spk_0 variations of that that we hear because I cannot tell you how many times I've heard that exact
spk_0 statement of like, well, I'm not, I mean, you even said it culture in the, yeah, like I'm not your
spk_0 parents. Right. Right. Like why are you reacting to me? Like I am when you know that I'm not.
spk_0 If you really trusted me, if you knew that I'm safe, then you should be able to not be triggered
spk_0 here. I like the one that says like, well, my love should be enough to fix it. Should he, my love
spk_0 should heal you. So condescending as you're saying, my love should be enough. So how you talk to
spk_0 your couples, do you hear yourself right now? No. It's valid to wish that. But that's a myth.
spk_0 Yeah. That sounds like a hallmark movie to me. Yeah. Yeah. No shade. But
spk_0 well, it's probably why people think that because they watch film movies and they're like, you know,
spk_0 totally. Yeah. And that Christmas Carol story. Yeah. Yeah. Just fell in love and they were fine.
spk_0 Canvas cameras love healed him. So DJ Tanner reference full house.
spk_0 And I was oh my gosh. Throw back. I think another one like if they really cared about me, you know,
spk_0 they would heal this. They would just talk to me more about it or they would just be more open
spk_0 and more vulnerable. They would run to therapy. I was going to say or they would go to therapy.
spk_0 Right. If they really cared about me, then they would go work on their own stuff. Yeah. Yep.
spk_0 I didn't feel that one in my own body. Right. Like that one feels that one feels true.
spk_0 Like if they really loved me and cared about me, they would go they would go work on this.
spk_0 They can see that it's impacting our relationships. So why, you know, right? I can just
spk_0 feel that with with maybe the listener who feels that way. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that
spk_0 I'm thinking is, you know, kind of reshaping the goal of like when that response happens, like our
spk_0 goal is kind of like to make it through this moment. Like we're here now. I don't think we can
spk_0 prevent the moment ever coming up again. You're saying like the moment of like being triggered or
spk_0 yeah, being triggered or like the conversation James and Mia have like it's that's going to happen
spk_0 again. You know, even if they have a really beautiful repair, they go see Kayla and Lauren for
spk_0 a couple's intensive, like it's going to happen again. And I'm not trying to say that, you know,
spk_0 all hope is lost or something, but reframing the goal of like this is going to happen again. And
spk_0 we have to be able to access tools to make it through. That's what doesn't blow up into something
spk_0 bigger. Yeah. I have a number of thoughts that I want to like dig into on that. I think before I
spk_0 lose it, the the the last thing that I was thinking of that sometimes I see partners do is like
spk_0 almost have this story about their partner who has trauma where it's like, well, this is just how
spk_0 they are. Like they're just always reactive to this. And because that's just how they are, it's like
spk_0 I don't even try to engage or understand. It's like, oh, they're acting up again. Like I just
spk_0 got to ride this out and wait for them to stop acting crazy. Yeah. I've definitely seen that one
spk_0 in my my office, my life, right? Like I think that's a relevant one is like, oh, they're just this like,
spk_0 you know, Yeller. And this is what they do. That's what I hear a lot in my offices. Like this is
spk_0 just what they do. And you're right. And there's just sort of like making this character judgment
spk_0 about the person versus seeing it maybe as this is how they're reacting to trauma.
spk_0 Mm-hmm. Yeah. And usually, I mean, you had said this earlier, Kayla, where it's like oftentimes both
spk_0 partners have some trauma that's being hit in different ways. So usually the partner who's like,
spk_0 well, that's just how they are. I'm not going to like engage with it or get curious about it or,
spk_0 you know, look for it to change. Like usually that's a partner who's like avoiding some of the vulnerable
spk_0 more emotionally charged things. It's like, oh, I can actually avoid that by just being like, well,
spk_0 I'm just going to wait it out and wait till we're back to status quo. So, Kult, I think going back to
spk_0 where you were just saying, you know, if there's trauma play, like this is going to happen again,
spk_0 right? Like we could have a repair conversation. I'm so sorry that I didn't text you and that that
spk_0 triggered your trauma. I'm so sorry. Gosh, my brain's not thinking of like, what are all the ways
spk_0 that trauma can get triggered? You know, I think about when somebody has felt really not prioritized
spk_0 or not important as a kid where it's like, you didn't celebrate my birthday. You didn't get me
spk_0 flowers for Valentine's Day. You didn't tell me that I looked nice. I wanted to do something
spk_0 together and you prioritized work or plans with your friends instead of the thing that I wanted to do
spk_0 when there's been maybe like a history of betrayal in somebody's life. Like even if the partner
spk_0 has never betrayed them directly, there could be this like chronic suspicion or mistrust or
spk_0 vigilance around like, well, where are you and where are you going and what are you doing and
spk_0 are you sure that you're not hurting me or blindsiding me in some way? Yeah. Yeah.
spk_0 I'm also thinking about like the partner who's so desperate for affection or vulnerability
spk_0 from their partner and they just keep like keep asking for like, I need you to talk to me in this
spk_0 way. I need you to say these types of things to me to make me feel special. I need you to flirt with me
spk_0 and the other partner really wants to do those things even but like, can't, right? It keeps finding
spk_0 themselves unable to meet these needs and it's this like this. Maybe that's part of the more shut down
spk_0 lower capacity side. One of the things that I'm thinking of is just like how big of a whole
spk_0 we dig ourselves in when we make our partner quote unquote prove to us that it hurts or prove to us
spk_0 that there's trauma. I think I know what you mean by that but can you kind of give an example
spk_0 of what you're saying? Yeah. I'm just saying, you know, we're kind of discussing a little bit like how
spk_0 like quote unquote believe your partner that this is actually how it feels for them. And I don't know
spk_0 if I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here because it almost feels like I would be telling
spk_0 the partner like you just kind of believe him. You know, like I'm kind of doing the like just
spk_0 get over it. Like they can't get over so you just have to believe them and that's not necessarily
spk_0 what I'm trying to say because you're having your own experience as well and there's room for
spk_0 the emotional experience that you're having there. But like if you are with a partner who has been
spk_0 betrayed in the past and you have been nothing but the most loyal partner. If you make them fight
spk_0 for why they feel the way that they do, I just think you're just going to dig yourself into a really
spk_0 bad spot versus kind of accepting that I have become attached with this person who has this trauma
spk_0 and it is something I'm going to care for for the duration of that this relationship.
spk_0 You're reminding me of something that Hillary McBride describes which is shooting the second
spk_0 arrow. She says that usually when we're talking to ourselves about something hard that we're
spk_0 experiencing, but essentially what you're describing culture is like this person has a trauma
spk_0 response to something in the relationship that's hitting something from the past. And then that's
spk_0 the first arrow that already feels painful that already is a shot with an arrow. That's already a shot
spk_0 right in the heart or in the gut. And then my partner says to me like gosh like why can't you just
spk_0 get over it right? And so now I have the second arrow of shame or you know helplessness or just like
spk_0 fear right that maybe this person's now going to leave me because my trauma is here right? So
spk_0 I think in a way what you're saying is we've got to learn to stop shooting the second arrow.
spk_0 Yeah that's a good way to put it. Yeah and you know this is where some of the complexity
spk_0 about relationship comes in. I heard you you know being generous with this culture where it's like
spk_0 there has to be room that you're also going to have an emotional experience when your partner has
spk_0 a trauma trigger and they react like that's going to impact you likely as well like it doesn't feel
spk_0 good to feel mistrusted or it doesn't feel good to feel like your partner thinks you're a bad
spk_0 partner because their trigger got hit. Yeah they didn't text back. Yeah and so that you know there's
spk_0 work on that side too like can I regulate what comes up for me when my partner has this reaction
spk_0 that of course feels really bad for me and in the relationship. And so I think on the side of like
spk_0 if I'm the partner you know seeing my my person has just gotten really triggered can I regulate
spk_0 what happens for me can I stay safe can I stay curious can I be like hey I see that something's
spk_0 getting touched here and I want to understand more about this and there is still space I think
spk_0 this goes back to Kayla where you said like this one feels true like there is still space to be like
spk_0 and this impacts me and it impacts our connection and it's not about saying like okay we're just
spk_0 going to for the rest of our lives have to like walk on egg shells around this trigger like there
spk_0 is actually real healing that can take place around trauma and so that's where we want to
spk_0 understand that we can get there. Okay so Lauren I love that you mentioned you know that there is
spk_0 a path to healing and you know to validate my concern earlier which is like yeah it does actually
spk_0 feel really bad to be that partner who just feels like they have to be in limbo forever and today
spk_0 we're not going to really focus on what the plan is and how to heal trauma but more so something
spk_0 to anchor to as far as clarity for why it does feel this big why it does feel this distressing
spk_0 and so if you could just kind of help maybe land at that point of why can't they just get over it.
spk_0 Yeah I love that you're framing the question that way because the reality is that we tend to
spk_0 think this is an issue between the two of us if you just believed that I'm safe if you just
spk_0 believe that I love you you should not be this triggered and what's really happening when there's
spk_0 trauma that's unhealed in the body is there's internally an emotion that feels too intense to tolerate
spk_0 you know and I mean I think think about like physical pain if somebody was like okay we're
spk_0 going to have this conversation and I'm going to stab you with a really sharp deep needle like
spk_0 that's going to be fine right it's like oh like can I tolerate that okay what if it's not a needle
spk_0 what if it's a knife you know like there's something really intense that the body is like I cannot
spk_0 handle or tolerate feeling this and so the reason they can't just get over it the reason that when
spk_0 this trigger comes up it still looks this raw and this big every time is because there's an
spk_0 internal feeling that we don't presently have the capacity to to regulate through.
spk_0 Okay so I suspect our listeners maybe could take that in and believe that emotional pain and
spk_0 trauma does impact the mind and body as intensely as physical pain does and that there is something
spk_0 real happening here and then I also suspect they're wondering okay so then what am I supposed to do
spk_0 like if this is happening in my relationship you know what am I supposed to do as the partner on the
spk_0 end of the traumatized relationship. Yeah and the short answer is you know if we can start to
spk_0 recognize that my partner has some trauma that's getting hit how can I be really really safe and
spk_0 gentle and curious around that instead of getting triggered I probably will get triggered by whatever
spk_0 their reaction is but instead of like going into my own reactivity can I try to regulate and
spk_0 remind myself like okay this is about their trauma like this it can I stay curious can I stay
spk_0 connected instead of going into my own self preservation. So I'm inquiring to this is about their
spk_0 trauma and I'm trying to stay out of personalizing this is about me. Yep this is something this is my
spk_0 fault this is something I didn't even judging them making a story about them. Yeah and I mean I just
spk_0 want to name this is really hard to do right just last night I was in one of my boundaries groups and
spk_0 we were role-playing and the role play was literally just like share about what it's like to be you
spk_0 to like bring up something that feels hard in conversation and the thing that everybody was
spk_0 reflecting on in the group is like oh we all came in thinking like there's a certain script that
spk_0 we're supposed to use to like do this communication well but there's actually no script that's going
spk_0 to prevent me from feeling triggered when you don't respond perfectly and so it's looking at like
spk_0 so much of this work is how do I know I'm going to be triggered when my partner shuts down or blows up
spk_0 and how do I regulate like oh don't personalize that pause don't react take a breath like stay
spk_0 curious stay with them instead of immediately going into my own self defense. Okay so why don't the
spk_0 two of you give us a couple role play examples so our listeners can maybe see what this looks like
spk_0 okay I think the first one let's do what it generally looks like without this awareness and without
spk_0 you know the conversation probably goes yeah how it usually goes exactly yeah okay so let's set up
spk_0 a context of culture and I are going to role play and in this scenario culture let's have you be
spk_0 the partner with some unresolved trauma and I'm gonna say something to you that I think is just
spk_0 part of like our normal day-to-day conversation connection it's gonna trigger you and then we'll
spk_0 see how that plays out so round one I'm not gonna be therapeutic or using skills I'm just gonna
spk_0 or save while you're crazy okay okay okay great okay so let's say that you just got home I've
spk_0 been home for the day you just came in the door hey how was your day oh it's good how about you um
spk_0 I mean it was okay it was just really really busy and I noticed that I was feeling a little
spk_0 bit extra stressed and frustrated because I had asked you to make sure that you cleaned up the kitchen
spk_0 before you left this morning and you didn't get to it and so it just like added some extra stress
spk_0 onto my day yeah I this morning was just crazy and I like I just had to get out the door okay well
spk_0 I'm just wondering if in the future like is there a better way that I could ask about this or how
spk_0 like when I need you to help me with something it kind of feels like you just don't if it's not
spk_0 convenient for you honestly I just like I don't really know what you want like I feel like
spk_0 you have like such a standard for what you want the kitchen to be like and it is it's just like
spk_0 so high that I just can't like ever get to that I mean it don't understand you saying you don't
spk_0 know what I want like I pretty explicitly say I will I feel like what you want is something that like
spk_0 I just like can't do like I don't think I don't know how anyone would ever do this so when I ask
spk_0 then you just are gonna avoid it altogether and never do it feels like I just like I know that
spk_0 like whatever even if I put the effort in like I'll go away about the counters and like
spk_0 put some dishes ways like I know the dishwasher right I didn't like clean the counters right
spk_0 because apparently there's like a right way to clean the counters well there's like a yeah there's
spk_0 like a normal way to clean counters I guess exactly and I'm not normal right okay so how it is
spk_0 you apparently yeah I can't ask my own partner to help clean up like an adult then I don't
spk_0 really understand how we're supposed to function yeah yeah it's gotta be so hard being married to
spk_0 such a juvenile idiot it is actually so I'm okay I'm not on the same page here okay how are you
spk_0 feeling I hate her yeah I actually expected you to be way more dysregulated with me like I think I
spk_0 was expecting in the beginning for you to come out you like oh he's like I could have dialed it up
spk_0 I mean you like presented it fairly softly you know you weren't just like you know
spk_0 the that's fair yeah and I think I did that because sometimes it's like it can be something soft I
spk_0 guess that comes across that can still hit a trigger where I'm like whoa like I have no idea that
spk_0 it was gonna hit that well I think that's a better way for us to present it to people because
spk_0 if you just said like like hey dumbass why didn't you clean up the kitchen like people are
spk_0 going to be like well yeah she's coming at him yeah she's coming at him like of course he's
spk_0 gonna respond that way or you know the recognition like yeah like I you know if I'm snappy with
spk_0 my partner I get why I get that reaction so it's a little bit more of the like I just kind of
spk_0 kindly asked you to do something and now yeah and look where Lauren and I got to I think I you know
spk_0 I liked that it didn't start off that way it was like you know it was a quick ramp up to there but
spk_0 there were still a few steps yeah yeah right well and I think you know what I noticed right away from
spk_0 you culture in response to Lauren it it Lauren's request or curiosity was deflection right so I'm
spk_0 immediately saying well you know I don't know your standards might be too high there's something
spk_0 kind of along those lines of like well can anybody even really do that and Lauren's then kind of
spk_0 bring some passive aggression and as she does you know what are you just gonna avoid it then right
spk_0 and then it can start you know and this is what cycles typically will look like they'll start kind
spk_0 of like a little sneaky and then they can get ramp up ramp up ramp up until we're now named
spk_0 calling back and forth I'm just an idiot right I'm not normal no you're not right and it can get
spk_0 more intense yeah and to your point Lauren sometimes it can start off that way right it can just
spk_0 jump into intensity so it they actually definitely can build this way yeah yeah all right we got to
spk_0 give this another pass we got to say you know what's maybe a more effective way to have this
spk_0 conversation let's take a quick break so Lauren and I can both regulate ourselves and then we will
spk_0 come back and show everybody a more effective way to have this conversation
spk_0 okay so in this next pass with the same scenario cold air is still gonna get triggered
spk_0 and respond in a triggered way but I am going to try to stay more curious and see if I can bring
spk_0 us to a more productive place instead of getting triggered and reacting based on your reaction
spk_0 okay okay okay so you just got home he called her how's your day it was good how about you um
spk_0 it was okay it was it was like pretty stressful to be honest and I just had wanted to bring
spk_0 up with you I know that I had asked you before you left this morning to clean up the kitchen and
spk_0 you didn't get to that before you left and so it just kind of added to my plate today and I was
spk_0 curious why you didn't get to that yeah I just the morning like was crazy and so I just I just
spk_0 got out of the house I didn't get to it okay um I guess I'm just finding myself wondering because
spk_0 it's like I I feel like it's often that it happens that I don't I don't know if I can trust if
spk_0 you're gonna be able to follow through on something that I ask so I guess I just want to understand
spk_0 more like was it something particular about like how stressful this morning was I just I guess I
spk_0 don't even really know like what you want with this because it like it feels like you have such a
spk_0 high standard for what the kitchen is supposed to look like and like I clearly can't do it and so
spk_0 like even if I try it's like I've done it the wrong way but the dish way wrong like a clean up the
spk_0 there's like a something coming up for you that like if you do try to do it I'm gonna end up
spk_0 saying it wasn't good enough like that it was what you do is like that I first of all I'm like
spk_0 exhausted from the day and it's like I yeah come home and I have to like dive in and do stuff and
spk_0 it's like I still don't do it enough so it's like I know that you're just gonna be frustrated and
spk_0 you're just gonna redo it so it's like kind of a waste of my time so you end up just giving up
spk_0 because it doesn't want to feel like I'm gonna end up in this position where I can't do it well
spk_0 enough and yeah it just feels like easier to not yeah okay I hear that and I know that I do have
spk_0 you know some particularities about like the ways that I like things done so like I can understand
spk_0 why that's getting hit for you I guess I'm just I'm wondering because I know that we've we've
spk_0 talked about in the past that that's been like a theme that's come up for you before around feeling
spk_0 like if I can't do something good enough like if I think the expectations are too high I just like
spk_0 start to shut down and it's not like I just want to make sure that I'm understanding like that's
spk_0 what's happening yeah I I don't know if like that's the language I would have put too up but that
spk_0 does kind of feel feel like what it is like the expectation is too high and I'm just like not
spk_0 going to meet it so yeah yeah okay yeah I mean I guess like I do want us to be able to like
spk_0 workshop this a little bit so that you know I know how I can bring something to you and have
spk_0 that trust there but I also understand that like it makes sense that if this is getting hit for you
spk_0 that like well why would I even try if it's not going to be enough anyway like I can understand why
spk_0 that would feel frustrating and so maybe this is something we need to like come back to outside of
spk_0 this thing around the kitchen and just kind of process more like what happens in our dynamic here
spk_0 okay let's let's stop and just kind of name what maybe feels different about this round
spk_0 so I think the things that I saw is you know learn you approached it pretty much in the same way
spk_0 initially and cultures still gave you that same response initially and when what I like to call
spk_0 like dodging the bullets is what I saw you doing right so he's still coming at you with like some
spk_0 like blame shifting or deflection and like you know I just think your standards are too high and he's
spk_0 dodging that bullet and you introduce curiosity right then you're dodging another bullet and
spk_0 you're still trying to get some more clarity then you're dodging another bullet he's still throwing
spk_0 them yeah and then you're owning right how your standards might be different than his and validating
spk_0 the impact of how he's receiving these requests and the thing I wanted to bring some curiosity just
spk_0 for my listeners that I noticed at the end was what I would call it's like it's not the time
spk_0 to negotiate this it's not the time for us to come up with a plan here and for you to express your
spk_0 needs and I'm curious if we could highlight that and just can you state why why did you choose like
spk_0 that kind of approach of like right now is not the time to problem solve this well I don't know
spk_0 that we like made it super explicit in the role play that like there's a trauma trigger here you
spk_0 know and sometimes with our partners like we we might know and we might not know but the thing
spk_0 that I was hearing him say was like there's something coming up for me this message that like I'm
spk_0 not good enough I cannot get it right and so when I recognize like oh that's coming up and there's
spk_0 some kind of like big emotion tied to that where we're not able to get into problem solving I wanted
spk_0 to be able to create enough safety to just like I see that and I believe that and I believe that
spk_0 there's something I did that's hitting that and so if I try to go right into problem solving it
spk_0 it's like we're probably not going to be able to get there because this is too charged
spk_0 of a thing like my goal right now is to actually just create some safety for us to be able to
spk_0 name this thing without it getting overwhelming yeah and I think just to validate being on that
spk_0 side of this dynamic that would mean that I have to then let go of my agenda my need to have
spk_0 you know the kitchen clean and prioritize what's happening with my partner because
spk_0 there is some vulnerability that's coming across the table and that that's going to be really hard
spk_0 it is really hard and I mean transparently I felt myself over here like okay don't go into therapist
spk_0 mode like I'm so aware of that and I hear my clients say that too you know like Lauren I come to
spk_0 therapy and I learn all this therapist language and then I try to go and be safe for my partner but
spk_0 they end up feeling like I'm just trying to therapist them you know and so there is something
spk_0 rail about like how do I slow this down enough where I'm not like well where do you think that came
spk_0 from in your child and where do you know like I didn't ask that I'm just trying to understand like
spk_0 okay what did I do that hit this what's the story that's coming up okay how does that make sense
spk_0 like I believe you trying to just really slow it down and keep it there for a little bit
spk_0 I am wanting to defend the fake story in my head of like a listener hearing this and just
spk_0 thinking like this guy just sounds like a jerk and like now it's her job to take care of all of
spk_0 this like she made a pretty reasonable request and he's just like you know Kayla said like she's
spk_0 dodging bullets over here it's like why is it her job to dodge bullets you know and that's exactly
spk_0 what will come into my office is like well that puts me in this caretaking position and that
spk_0 doesn't feel fair right and I think the reality when we have a partner with trauma is that there's
spk_0 going to be some moments that don't feel fair yes because it's not the same experience
spk_0 Lauren's talking about the dishes and cultures having this experience of being a young guy who was
spk_0 shamed because he couldn't get anything right ever right whether that was in sports or at his
spk_0 home or what have you and so that's it's not the same in that moment yeah right it's two different
spk_0 experiences actually and so yeah it won't feel fair and that is a part where I guess like I know
spk_0 we won't have enough time probably to go into this today but maybe on a future episode like that
spk_0 is something that you're going to then have to start to discern within yourself of like can I be
spk_0 patient here can I put some of my needs for the dishes and the clubliness of the house aside
spk_0 given that my partner is having this kind of experience or and or what do we do how long do we
spk_0 wait like I'm sure those are some of the things that probably come up at the end of this yeah yeah
spk_0 well and you said like if you have a partner with trauma and I'm gonna almost go as far to say like
spk_0 you probably do like you know no one's making it out of childhood unscathed or out of this place
spk_0 without some wounds and some scars and so could that be disproportionate you know of course it
spk_0 probably is but like to I think we're going to have to take turns yeah doing this like we could do
spk_0 another example where I bring up something totally different you know maybe in you know maybe I
spk_0 I tell Lauren like hey like you know as you're trying to clean up the kitchen and that's no big deal
spk_0 for her again I write it didn't get to it but maybe there's just something else that I bring up
spk_0 that hits on her trigger and I'm like I don't understand why this is triggering you well the last
spk_0 thing I want to add to this is you know we can get stuck in this like well it's not fair that I
spk_0 have to do that but what if your partner has never seen that done like if they've never seen it done
spk_0 yeah somebody to dodge bullets and stay curious and not get reactive chances are they don't know
spk_0 how to do it for you and so if you could be the one to like I'm in a model this I'm gonna be safe for
spk_0 you I'm gonna show you how it's done that actually is gonna increase your chances that they'll be
spk_0 able to learn how to do this for you yeah in other moments it and I would say also decrease the
spk_0 chances of it coming to the same intensity the next time yeah okay so I as you both know could talk
spk_0 about trauma all day all week forever but I'm gonna wrap us up here hoping that the takeaways for
spk_0 our listeners from this episode really can be about understanding if I see a disproportionate reaction
spk_0 from my partner or something that it's like this just keeps coming up and it feels so unreasonable
spk_0 or maybe I'm the one that that's happening for can I bring some understanding to believing like
spk_0 there is a reason internally in the nervous system that this keeps happening if there is some
spk_0 unprocessed unresolved trauma maybe around a narrative that like I'm not safe I'm not in control
spk_0 I'm not lovable I'm not good enough like those things can get activated and really impact our
spk_0 relationships being able to bring more safety by not reacting to the reaction is a really really
spk_0 good first step in trying to slow this down and even just exploring like what kind of bandwidth
spk_0 do we have here to to work on this and change the cycle but a lot of that self regulation to stay
spk_0 curious and then also just knowing that therapy is a really helpful option you know trauma can be
spk_0 healed can be processed through that might be a request that we really want to bring to our partner
spk_0 like hey I see this happening for you I see it impacting me is this something that you'd be
spk_0 willing to get some additional support for yeah and on that note I would say you know if you're
spk_0 needing help having your partner see this a couple's intensive can be a really great place to
spk_0 get some support for outlining what's happening in the relationship and Lauren and I are both
spk_0 trained to help couples navigate relational trauma and so we'd love to have you come in and do
spk_0 some of that work in real time with us thanks for listening
spk_0 thanks so much for tuning into today's episode if you enjoyed it we love it if you could leave
spk_0 us review on iTunes or Spotify or even send it to a friend as always all the links will be in the
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spk_0 off to all of our listeners that you go to sparkmyrelationship.com slash unlock there are over 15
spk_0 psychologists and therapists who have collaborated to create this course include all of the real
spk_0 love tools and tricks that they are teaching to their clients on a weekly basis and as a therapist I
spk_0 will tell you that this is how about all of therapy begins learning new tools and techniques and so
spk_0 this course is a really great supplement or booster to couples there so that sparkmyrelationship.com
spk_0 slash unlock we'll see you at the next episode and have a great day