Science
Training for the stars: Rosemary Coogan on becoming an astronaut
In this episode of the Physics World Stories Podcast, Andrew Glester interviews Rosemary Coogan, one of the European Space Agency's newest astronauts, about her journey from astrophysicist to ast...
Training for the stars: Rosemary Coogan on becoming an astronaut
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Interactive Transcript
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Hello and welcome to the Physics World Stories Podcast.
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I'm Andrew Glester and back in 2022, the European Space Agency announced its first new
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recruit to the astronaut program in 13 years.
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Among those new astronauts was Rosemary Kuggen, an astrophysicist born in Northern Ireland.
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Now deep into her training, Rosemary and her colleagues are slated to go to space to
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the International Space Station between 2026 and 2030.
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With that mission on the horizon and a potential mission to the moon with the Artemis missions
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in the future, I managed to grab half an hour with Rosemary among her busy schedule of
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learning Russian, going into the pool in Houston, Texas that the astronauts used to train
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for spacewalks when they are at the International Space Station and everything else that is
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involved in her training.
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And I began by asking her whether this had always been something that she'd hoped to do.
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I think I started thinking, oh, maybe I'll become an astronaut already when I was absolutely
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teeny tiny.
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I can't even remember really when the idea was kind of when it first came to be as long
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as I can remember.
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I've always wanted to be an astronaut.
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I mean, I was interested in lots of other things.
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There's a lot of cool jobs out there, a lot of things that I think are really important,
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but yeah, always growing up, I thought, yes, of course, being an astronaut would be one
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of the best things I could do.
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And it was always kind of something in the back of my mind in a way, because I didn't really
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see the opportunity exactly how that path would go.
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So I really kind of occupied myself with following other things that I love studying science,
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studying space.
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And then I think I must have been 30 when the call for applications came out.
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And it was just really lucky that it was kind of the right time in my career, the right time
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in my life.
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And then that opportunity came up from Esa and I went for it.
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So you know, you're so in the back of your mind, when you were thinking, I'm going to do
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astrophysics.
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Was it sort of thinking maybe one day, then might be a call for Esa astronauts or we're
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just thinking, do you know what space I'll do that?
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If I'm being honest, I just wanted to study space.
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Of course, it would be great to be an astronaut, but particularly when I was making those decisions,
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the profile of an astronaut was a bit narrower, we can say, this selection of Esa astronauts,
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we've really seen it kind of broaden to scientists, rather than people who are kind of necessarily
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pilots or so.
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So really, I just thought, you know, I would love to learn more about space.
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I'm going to go for that.
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And of course, you know, you always stay open to anything and everything that can come your way
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on your on your path.
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Yeah.
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You are a physicist.
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Can you tell us what you studied when you were studying physics?
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Yeah, so I did my, I did a master's degree at Durham University in physics and astrophysics.
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So it did have a little bit of a slant on astrophysics, but it was essentially a physics degree
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and in the final year or so I thought that's the kind of direction I want to specialize in.
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And then I went on to do a second master's in a PhD in more research.
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So that was specializing just in astrophysics and mainly looking at distant galaxy evolution.
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So looking first at how you see galaxies at very short wavelength in gamma rays,
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very energetic parts of galaxies.
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And then later on, my PhD looking at kind of how galaxies interact with each other in different environments
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using all different telescopes and different wavelengths.
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Yeah.
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What did you find?
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Well, it's really interesting because a galaxy by itself, we can say with no other galaxies nearby,
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creates stars often in a very kind of steady, predictable way.
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But when you get lots of galaxies in a galaxy group or a galaxy cluster,
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they start to interact with each other and that can really, they can interact with each other's gas
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and that's what makes stars and you can get these kind of star bursts, it's called.
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So I found that fascinating.
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Yeah, no, it's amazing, isn't it?
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Did you, like if this hadn't come along, did you have something else that you were going to look into after it's or?
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It was something I was thinking about quite heavy at the time.
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This idea of how to perhaps combine what I was already doing, being a scientist with this other side of space.
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I almost think now that there's the research side of space and then the exploration side of space,
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which actually focuses on much different types of science people physically going there.
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And I was thinking about, particularly with Easter, looking into if I could do research there,
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if I could also expose me to the mission control side of things, the telescopes and cells,
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the missions behind those.
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Yeah.
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So I think there were lots of really, really interesting pathways within space and the space sector.
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Sorry, I have a question, which, because I'm a lecturer in my day job.
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And I was at a meeting with one of my students today and she's doing her research into the portrayal of scientists
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in science fiction with a view to how that, how society sees scientists, right?
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Three science fiction films.
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Yes.
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Very short time.
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Okay, so she wanted me to ask you as somebody who is, you know, inspiring young people into space and physics and science.
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Other people are characters from fiction from science fiction, perhaps that inspired you when you were younger on now.
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Oh, that is a really good question.
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I think I wouldn't say there was a particular character that inspired me.
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But I do love science fiction and I find it's kind of an interesting thing.
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I think particularly in my role and I think you've had some similar discussions if I've understood some of your work.
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As well about how realistic science fiction is, how that feeds into our opinions on science and exploration and all of these things.
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And I tend to be off the side where I don't mind too much how realistic something is.
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I actually find that just almost everything I read and sound as science fiction, it just makes you think about the possibility of what could be, you know, even if it's not in something that's not kind of possible now,
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or it only be possible as, you know, a few small things are different.
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I just find the whole getting lost in that other world of possibilities, not necessarily aligning with certain characters, but just, yeah, those visions are a great kind of.
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So more reading than watching science fiction or?
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Probably a bit of both.
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Yeah, I think some of the things that have really grabbed me have been particularly books.
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But I love a science fiction movie.
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Just as much as anything else.
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Yeah.
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Can you take books?
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I mean, maybe you take a Kindle with you or something to space when you go?
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I mean, can you take books?
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Is it, I mean, I think you can, yes, but they're heavy.
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Unfortunately, per, you know, per book, they're heavy.
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So I think a lot of the reading material is electronic.
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Yeah, it can be uploaded, actually.
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We have some fantastic teams on the ground.
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They're out of crew support teams who upload material regularly for astronauts.
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And that can be films or, you know, newspapers and books as well.
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So yeah, you can definitely read in space.
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But I think as much as I love the feel of a real book in terms of, yeah, you can maybe bring one or electronically.
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You can, yeah, meet your heart.
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Yeah.
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What would you read science fiction on?
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Like if you're on the International Space Station, do you think you'd like read science fiction or something else?
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I, I'm not the, I'm not the kind of person I think who gets kind of too spaced out.
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I think I could very happily be in space and read about space at the same time.
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But I also love kind of classic novels, things that, you know, just stories of people's lives.
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And I think that could be a nice, a nice change of scene.
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And I wonder if perhaps on the ISS as well, because one of the things is, is being quite isolated from other people.
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Whether really just kind of reading some of those classic novels is maybe a way to also feel that you're, you're connecting with another side of things that you maybe don't have on the ISS.
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Yeah, I was wondering about that because it's very, well, I think I've heard you say it's inside, right?
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Space is mostly inside.
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When you're on the ISS, yeah, it is very much mostly inside and it's set to show, you know, lucky enough to have the opportunity to do an EVA.
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Yeah, it is, it's a completely closed environment.
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Isolated kind of physically in that sense.
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Of course, what the technology has we have now is, is possible to call, even video call down to family and friends.
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But you are very much living and working in this small environment with a subset of people.
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Don't worry, I'll move on to something else in a second, but there must be some films that you don't want to watch on the International Space Station, right?
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Probably. I'd love to get some of my colleagues' opinions on that.
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I'm sure this is a discussion that many of you have had about what is appropriate for moving high and what maybe is best left and so after the mission.
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I'm thinking you don't want to watch Gravity.
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I think that's probably a no-no.
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I think probably snakes on a plane you don't want to watch as well.
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That's probably not something.
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But that's true of all times.
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You can brag out and very suspiciously.
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Yeah, absolutely, right.
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So is there any way that your research that you've been doing is related to your job as an astronaut?
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There are some astrophysics experiments on the ISS, but really what I think is very special about the ISS is how much really broad science it covers that has a very direct impact on our lives on Earth.
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And I would say in that sense that my kind of previous role and the work I was doing, it feeds much more into the skill set that an astronaut needs to have,
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kind of problem solving and perhaps that approach to science rather than physically needing to know the details of astrophysics and galaxy evolution.
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We had a really interesting few months during basic training.
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The first and 13 months of our training was it's called basic training and it's something that all agencies have to make sure that everyone has the sort of an international syllabus.
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A lot of it was learning about all different types of science.
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It's perhaps for one week astrophysics, one week human biology, one week meteorology, one week climate and Earth science to give us this background to because we will come from completely different backgrounds to make sure everyone has the same level of understanding of what will actually be the background of what we do on the ISS.
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So I thought that was a really, really nice thing to do.
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Because that's not the sort of thing that gets reported on as much as that sort of that learning you're doing as part of your training.
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Yeah, I mean of course basic training also we had winter survival training and water training survival and firefighting, centrifuge and these are the sorts of things that kind of really get picked up and reported because there's pictures of us outside and doing things.
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But a lot of our basic training was spent in the classroom.
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Yeah, which isn't kind of talked about as much.
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No, no.
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We're talking about it.
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So it's fun.
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So why winter survival training? What's that about?
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It's actually because when you come down from space, from a mission, you have very much a designated kind of landing area.
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You know where you're aiming for in your capsule.
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But you can never guarantee that that's exactly where you're going to land.
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So kind of a very, very cold environment being quite a difficult climate, a difficult place to live.
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The idea is that if you do end up landing somewhere very hostile like that and it takes the rescue teams, the teams who come and meet you on grounds, kind of hours or maybe even days to come and get you and your crew from the capsule.
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You just need to be able to look after yourself, look after each other and survive them.
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So it's really just the practicalities of coming back and the same for water survival.
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It's all about the landings.
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Okay, but there's, I mean, there's the pool as well.
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I just think that looks amazing.
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Is it as amazing as it looks doing that kind of pool training with the model ISS under the water?
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Yeah, it was, it was really, really special.
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I finished that just at the beginning of June this year.
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I was in Houston at Donston's Bay Center for seven months doing that EVA training.
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And it really was, yeah, it is, it is pretty magical because you know, you are underwater and you have, you have a team of divers who, who essentially adjust your buoyancy.
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So you're in the EMU suit, the suit that you use to do an EVA outside the station.
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What people think of is very typically the space suits.
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And of course, that's very heavy.
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So you need to add a lot of float and buoyancy to it to get that floating.
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That means you're, you're moving like you would in microgravity.
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And so there's this whole team of people who are, who are doing that.
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And the end result really is that you are floating in what looks very much like space.
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You know, learning really how to move around the outside of the ISS, practicing installing things.
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And also, you know, keeping yourself and your teammates safe.
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A lot of protocol around that.
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It's really, yeah, it's a really, really immersive experience.
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How do the people in the water adjust your buoyancy?
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Yeah, so it's, I mean, it's very, it's very simple in theory.
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They literally just put floats onto you kind of, you know, you know,
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yeah, pieces of foam and and blocks of blocks that float and that
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increase your buoyancy and they have different weights and they can put them in your chest
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and in your ankles.
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So although in theory, it's kind of very easy to put a float on somebody and make them floats.
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It's a very delicate art underwater for the teams to constantly adjust your buoyancy so that when
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you move body position, you might go up and down in the pool because you're moving around the
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space station to keep that consistent is, is, yeah, quite a thing.
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But in theory, you know, it's just your suit plus the, plus the buoyancy plus the floats.
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The astronauts who've done that and obviously then been to the ISS, do they say that that's,
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you know, a good approximation of it?
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Yeah, there are, there are some interesting differences.
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So it's, I think it's a very good approximation of it.
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One of the big differences is that although you're floating, you still have gravity.
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So if you turn upside down, the blood will rush to your head.
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So you don't have as much freedom about choosing exactly what position you put your body in and
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a lot of the the trainers say, do think to yourself, when I approach this work site, when I
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install this item, would you want to be like this or actually would you want to be kind of
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upside down in space? So do think about the the differences there.
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And some parts are harder in the pool, you know, moving against the water, kind of that drag
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is more difficult. But then of course, when you're in space, you have these, these tethers and
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things that just float about like crazy and at least in the water, they don't, they float,
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but they're not kind of absolute spaghetti kind of out of control. So there's, there's things that
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are easier and things that are harder. They're overall a very good approximation, really good training.
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Yeah, I'm jealous. I'm very, very jealous of that. I don't want to go to space, but I do want to
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get in that pool. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. It's not for me. I'm more of a stay at home
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guy to go. The other thing which looks really amazing is those parabolic flights.
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Yeah.
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Like some people just do that and float around like, but you do that and you're actually doing experiments
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as you would be in zero G or zero G. Yeah, the first, the first few parabolas because what you have
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on a parabolic flight is many, many parabolas. So you have 22 seconds of this floating
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of this reduced gravity, but between every 22 seconds that the plane does another maneuver and you
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come back down. So you get very short periods of time to practice over the course of a couple of
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hours of flights. So the first few were really focused on just kind of moving, understanding that
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you don't want to try and swim. That's not going to work. You have to kind of gently push yourself
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off of objects, but only gently because otherwise you'll be whizzing all over the place.
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And after that, yeah, it focused much more on, for example, kind of using, using kind of electric
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drills because you want to make sure that you secure yourself properly so that you're not spinning
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around around around around you want the drill to be spinning around around and you need to be in
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one fixed place, which is easy so it's done. We did a bit of kind of practicing CPR because again,
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you can't really push down because you'll just float up. You need to secure your body.
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And then we did a few experiments in what's called the glove box where you have your hands inside
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a glove box. It's a completely sealed environment for either very sensitive experiments or things
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that could be toxic if they're released. So yeah, we really practiced the practicalities of how
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different it is to do all of those things in that environment. So presumably part of your training
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and maybe you already know this sort of stuff, but it is to do with first aid and if people are
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real and you all have to look at like some, what happens if somebody gets ill on the international
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space? It depends on what kind of illness they have. I mean, we all have, we've all had the kind
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of a basic course in the changes that our body is going to undergo, things like putting stitches in,
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if you know, you knock your head on something, you know, we're trained in kind of minor things like
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that, I guess you'd call it just first aid. But one of the interesting things about the ISS is how
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much it has improved telemedicine. So of course, on ground, we have amazing doctors, really knowledgeable
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people and often we will do a kind of a medical exam with people on the grounds. We have the equipment
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to show them with cameras or with ultrasounds. It's something's not quite right. But if it is
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something really serious, of course, we don't have the means to treat that up in space and it would
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mean that we had to come down as a crew very, very quickly. And that's one of the reasons why the
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selection for an astronaut focuses quite a lot on the medical side of things because you need to be
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somebody who just has a very small likelihood of becoming seriously ill in space because it is
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more difficult to treat. Okay. Yes, I'd never thought of that CPR thing. That's quite a thing,
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isn't it? That's what do you do then? Do you sort of, I don't know, how do you do that? How do you
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put up your choice? So you have the person in need of care, we can call it on the floor. For the
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power of a system, it's not quite right, but on the floor, kind of on a bench. And you would turn
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yourself upside down and put your feet on the ceiling. So it depends on what height you are. If
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you're very, very short or very, very tall, perhaps the length isn't going to be quite right.
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And use your feet to push off against the ceiling and then put your hands kind of vertically down
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onto the chest. Right. Okay. Well, hopefully that's not going to happen when you go. So you'll
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need that. But at least you'll know what to do if it happens. That's the thing. So there's another
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thing that you have to learn. I assume which is languages. Are you any good at them?
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I'm trying my very best. I mean, I'm not a linguist by training, but I think it's an incredible
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opportunity to be able to learn different languages. You so quickly realise kind of the doors it
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opens to be able to speak with people in their native language to really show willing, as well as
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obviously the need for it. So yeah, learning Russian is still part of our syllabus. Of course,
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Roscosmos is a big partner in the ISS and there's an agreement that everybody on the space station
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will speak both English and Russian. And that's the face also for our Japanese and Canadian
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and Space Agency colleagues. So yes, it's certainly a challenge, but it's actually, I mean, it's one of
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the real pleasures of the training so far is just learning so many different things. Some of them I
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might have been a little bit familiar with beforehand and some of them are completely brand new.
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And I absolutely love that. This kind of constant challenge. Yeah, it's amazing. Now, one of the things
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that is changing you mentioned this earlier is the inclusivity within the space sector. And
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you're in taking particular, had a particular view to that. How important is that within the space
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travel? It's really important. I mean, the kind of the differences of, you know, diversity can
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mean so many different things, right? You know, it's, it's, and it really, we think they're the
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focus of the selection of ESHA in 2022 was gender diversity as one of the points, but also really
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background diversity in terms of where you come from, what your approach to thing is, approach to
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career rationalities that we've been training together very intensively. And it's interesting
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that we have a lot of things in common that potentially kind of make us suitable for the role,
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but you already see actually people coming from different jobs, be it kind of military or scientific
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or medicine or engineering, everyone just does things in a slightly different way and we can
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learn so much from each other. And, you know, diversity generally, it just brings so much to a team
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in terms of problem solving. And then of course, you know, in terms of inspiring the next generations,
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you know, making sure that everybody, you know, growing up now deciding what they want to do
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with their, with their careers knows that, you know, there aren't certain jobs for certain small
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groups of people. You've come up this kind of very narrow channel. There is not one way to come
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to something. I think that's a really important thing to talk about. But the people who are growing
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up now aren't going to be able to be astronauts on the International Space Station or like,
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because that's coming to the end of your life. Yeah, the International Space Station will be coming
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to end its life in 2030. But that doesn't mean that we're not going to be in lower fall, but anymore.
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You know, it's going to, it's going to be a very different scene, you know, until now it's been
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really focused on space stations that are built by governments and nations like the International
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Space Station. And it's going to become very much kind of commercialised. There's a lot of commercial
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companies now who want to put a station into lower thought because they, you know, they really see
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the value in it. And it's going to be a complete shift at that point about how these commercial
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companies run their space stations. How ESA, for example, it gets involved with that. I wrote,
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you know, very much will still be involved with lower thought, and there will be agreements made,
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but it's a completely different way of doing things. So, but you know, there, there's still very
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much will be astronauts in lower thought, but it's just going to be a different way of doing it.
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So when you came into the astronaut core in 2022, it was talked about that you might have a
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emission, or you and your fellow astronauts might have a mission to the International Space Station
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from 2026 to 2030. Now unless I'm very much mistaken, 2026 in a few months time.
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Yes, yes it is. And that is still very much the the window that we're looking at. So my one of
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my French colleagues, Sophie Ednault, will be going to the space station next year. So she is in that
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2026, very exciting kind of the first of us to be going up to space. So that's that's great to see
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her, you know, she's reporting back about all of her training as she goes into these very mission
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specific trainings. And yes, for the rest of us, it will be between 2027 and 2030 and we'll go
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probably one by one. And that was kind of always what was anticipated. Of course, there's a lot of
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moving pieces right now. Maybe we will end up maybe the how it looks will be slightly different,
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maybe we won't end up going one by one, maybe we'll end up going with other European astronauts,
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but that is all very much to be seen. Why did she go first? What's the the selection for that?
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It's based on nationality essentially. So of course, ESA is 22 member states and
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all of those member states contribute different things to different programs. It's very much
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tied in with how astronauts are selected. It's obviously based on competencies, but also
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nationalities. And then the mission assignments, the order of that is very much a discussion between
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the director general and the heads of each of those nations. So it's yeah, we're very much way
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above my level. I'm imagining you all now sitting in the room having a coffee going, who's next?
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Well, I mean, luckily, because, you know, because we all come from different countries and, you know,
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it's not something where we have to compare each other because the system is how it is.
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Yeah, but of course, you know, thinking about who is next is a very exciting past time.
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But you also, you don't want to live your life or live your career kind of saying, you know,
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who's going to be next? When will it be me? You really have to live in the moment. And that's
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something that I think we're understanding more and more, you know, the training is fantastic.
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What we're doing now is yeah, we're really, really enjoying it. And we cannot always kind of live
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for the next thing. It's what we're working towards. And when that moment happens for each of us
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individually, you know, that will be amazing. But yeah, you know, I'm I'm training now actually
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as somebody who will work in mission control to talk to Sophie when she's on the ISS.
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So that is something that I'm really looking forward to supporting her and her mission. And you know,
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it really is a team activity. And when I go up, you know, I'm looking forward to talking to my
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colleagues back then. That's amazing. I do say you're still training at the moment, but you still
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be training throughout this period. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Sophie going next year was actually a very
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condensed timeline. She is really, really having to go through these things quickly. The minimum training
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is about two and a half years. So since we started our training in 2023,
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um, yeah, she has had the one of the most condensed time that is possible. So there is absolutely plenty
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for us to be training in between now and 2020, 30 yet. I'm letting fly at the moment actually.
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As my kind of my current. Wow. Amazing. How's that going?
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Really interesting. Very different from my my previous role. Really, yeah, really, really interesting
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to see how much, you know, how you can know something one moment on the ground. And then you get
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into a plane and there's a million different things, you know, you're you're piloting, you're looking
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for traffic, you're doing checklists and trying to keep everything in your head. I can really see
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how valuable it is actually to train that operational side of things you might say. Yeah. Okay. I think
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you've got to go, but can I just ask you one two more quick, two more quick things. But the first one
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is if you could go anywhere on this spacecraft, literally anywhere, there's no, like where would you
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go? Would you go to one of those distant galaxies that you were studying or something else? I mean,
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if we're talking just kind of complete sheer fantasy, I think, yes, I have often wondered because
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I mean, one of the things about looking galaxies through telescopes is I'm very aware that a lot
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of what I look at in an image I could not see with my eyes because it's an it's a radio telescope
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or infrared telescope or a gamma ray telescope, you know, frequencies that I cannot see with my eyes.
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So, although I have this picture of a galaxy, I would I would love to know what it would be like
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to be in space and to actually look at it and, you know, I'm aware of kind of all of these hugely
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kind of violent eruptions happening within them. I think we how much of that could be perceived when
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you were there? I just I would find that absolutely fascinating. But of course, you know, going to the
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moon there was yeah, there was plenty of excitement there to keep me, to keep me busy,
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having to keep me looking forward to it. So we haven't had time to talk about going to the moon,
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but maybe maybe what will happen is when you are either selected or have been to the moon,
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your comeback and talks was then back. Yes, please, that would be great.
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Well, I'm sure like me, you're looking forward to that and we'll follow Rosemary's career as an
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astronaut in the years to come. What a wonderful, wonderful thing it is to hear from her and know what
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goes into this astronaut journey. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Physics World Stories
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Podcast. We'll be back next month with something else from this wonderful world of physics.
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And thank you very much for listening.
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I'd also like to thank the European Space Agency not only for helping to organize the
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interview with Rosemary Kuggen, but for providing the clips of the training on those parabolic
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flights for you in this podcast.
Topics Covered
Physics World Stories Podcast
Rosemary Kuggen astronaut
European Space Agency astronaut program
International Space Station mission
Astrophysicist training
Artemis missions
Astrophysics research
Galaxy evolution
NASA astronaut training
Space exploration
Science fiction inspiration
Survival training for astronauts
Spacewalk training
Science and technology in space
Astrophysics experiments on ISS