The curious history of Nobel prizes: from lighthouses to gravitational waves

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello and welcome to the Physics World Weekly Podcast. I'm Hamish Jonsson. In this episode,

spk_0 I'm joined by my colleague, Matin Durani, and we're going to talk about some interesting aspects

spk_0 of the Nobel Prize for Physics, and we're also going to speculate who might win this year.

spk_0 But first, I'd like to acknowledge the generous support of American elements.

spk_0 American elements.

spk_0 The world's manufacturer of engineered and advanced materials.

spk_0 American elements now invent.

spk_0 Next week, the winners are possibly winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize for Physics will be announced.

spk_0 In the run-up to the announcement, we like to look back on previous awards and explore the

spk_0 quirky history of the world's most famous prize in Physics. We also make a prediction or two

spk_0 for this year's prize, predictions that rarely come true, and at the end of this podcast,

spk_0 we'll have a fun Nobel quiz. This year, Physics World's Margaret Harris has written about two

spk_0 rather puzzling awards that were given in the early days of the Nobel Prize, and Matin has chosen

spk_0 his favourite, or are you going to correct me on that Matin, not your favourite? Top five. His top five

spk_0 prizes of the 2000s. Hi, Matin. Welcome to the podcast. Hello, Hamish. How's it going?

spk_0 Not too bad, although I have to say I'm feeling very old, because as someone who came of age in the

spk_0 1980s, I'm really struggling with the fact that it's 2025. And what's more, a whopping 68 people

spk_0 have bagged a Physics Nobel Prize since 2000? That's a lot of people. It's a lot more than I thought

spk_0 when I first started counting. And indeed, that's more than the number of people who won

spk_0 Nobel's in the first 50 years of the Physics Prize, which began in 1901. And I think that reflects

spk_0 the fact that three luriate awards, they're pretty well-enormed these days, whereas single winners

spk_0 were much more common in the early days of the prize. And I think, since 2000, there's been a mix of

spk_0 two and three. And I think you've got those in your top five. So let's count down your top five

spk_0 prizes since the year 2000. So starting at number five, you've got the 2015 prize. And that had to

spk_0 do with the confirmation of neutrino oscillation, which led to the conclusion that neutrinos have mass.

spk_0 So why is this special? I mean, one reason it's special is, of course, art McDonald, Canadian,

spk_0 fellow Canadian, shared the prize, which for me makes it special. But why is it special for you?

spk_0 Well, before we go anywhere, hey, Michelle, I've got to stress that. For me, I don't care what you say,

spk_0 the 21st century includes the year 2000. I know you were saying to me, starts on the 1st January

spk_0 2001, but luckily, the 2000 prize isn't on this list. So this is the 2015 prize. I just love it

spk_0 because the neutrino, I mean, it's one of those particles that you learn about on the physics degree.

spk_0 It was got this great history going back to Wolfgang Pauli, who, do you remember, there was that

spk_0 famous quote, it was a desperate remedy. So when they looked at how a nucleus undergoes

spk_0 beat to decay, it seemed that their energy wasn't being conserved. And so he proposed this idea that

spk_0 there was this particle carrying away the missing energy. And he didn't like it. And then it wasn't

spk_0 until the 60s that it was discovered. And that led to a Nobel Prize for a Fred Rines and Clyde Cowan.

spk_0 It, in neutrinos, interacts so weekly with matter that these are really difficult particles to detect.

spk_0 And then it wasn't until the 90s that, as you say, Hamish Takaki Kajita, who works on the

spk_0 super cameo candy detector in Japan. And art that Donald, fellow Canadian, at the Sudbury

spk_0 neutrinos, ever tree in the early 2000s, what they did was they saw that neutrinos, which come in

spk_0 these three types, can switch or oscillate from one type to another. And that work is interesting

spk_0 because it proved that neutrinos, which we thought were massless, actually have a very small mass

spk_0 after all. And you might think so what, but that contradicts the standard model of particle physics.

spk_0 And isn't it great when conventional wisdom is sort of upended? And what's more, if that wasn't

spk_0 enough, the idea of neutrino oscillation explained why back in the 60s, Ray Davis and John

spk_0 Bacal had only seen a third of the number of so-luny neutrinos predicted by theory from the sun

spk_0 in their famous experiments. And the reason they didn't see enough is that their detector

spk_0 was only sensitive to electron neutrinos and not the other types. And so they concluded that

spk_0 they'd been oscillating from one type to another as they come from the sun. So it solved,

spk_0 finding the trino oscillation solved, you know, this long-standing mystery. So that's number five

spk_0 in my list. Do you feel it's worthy on the list number five, Hamish? Oh, definitely, I mean, I think

spk_0 anything that that forces physicists to revise the standard model of particle physics is extraordinarily

spk_0 important. I mean, that is the whole goal of particle physics, isn't it? To overthrow the

spk_0 standard model and find some new physics. So yeah, definitely. At number four, you've got the 2001

spk_0 award and that had to do with the creation of the Bose Einstein condensate. So what's a Bose

spk_0 Einstein condensate? And why did three people win a Nobel or share a Nobel Prize for creating it?

spk_0 I should have stepped back a bit, Hamish, and said the reasons for picking these prizes is my

spk_0 my little list of reasons why I've chosen them. And I kind of think a Nobel Prize is significant

spk_0 if it's simple to understand and it's an experimental tour de force has long-term implications for

spk_0 science. And it's something on people's bucket lists that people have hoped to happen for a long time.

spk_0 And also that it was won by people that we'd actually heard of, not every year we heard of the

spk_0 Nobel or it's Hamish. And I kind of think is of interest to people who might not be physicists if

spk_0 you were explaining what would happen if they've only got a passing interest. You'd think these

spk_0 are the prizes you'd pick. And I like Bose Einstein condensation again because it's got that long

spk_0 historical link first predicted in the mid 1920s. And it's essentially a new state of matter. And what I

spk_0 also love is that the three people who won the prize Eric Cornell, Carl Veeeman and Wolfgang Ketterli,

spk_0 the first two on those lists they saw this state of matter at a really specific time. So I've

spk_0 actually written it down here 10 54 AM on Monday the 5th of June 1995 at the Gillilaboratory in

spk_0 Boulder, Colorado. And they cooled down 2000, rubidium 87 atoms to 170 nano-calvin. And then they

spk_0 saw them in the same quantum state. This is the Bose Einstein condensate. And then a few months later,

spk_0 Ketterli, MIT made a Bose Einstein condensate from 500,000 sodium 23 atoms at two micro-calvin.

spk_0 So it's great that you know something happened at a really specific time. It's very rare in physics

spk_0 that you can pinpoint a discovery to a certain time in a certain place. And you know since then,

spk_0 as you've written lots of stories over the years, Hamish, people have created hundreds of groups

spk_0 have created Bose Einstein condensates. And they've been used for everything from slowing light,

spk_0 to making atom lasers and even modeling black holes.

spk_0 Yeah, well, I can't argue with that one. And you know, I think that the creation of the Bose

spk_0 Einstein condensate is it was a very important milestone on the road to the quantum renaissance that

spk_0 we're enjoying at the moment. You know, the sort of the idea that because of technology and technology

spk_0 that was developed by the three people who won that particular Nobel Prize, because of that,

spk_0 another amazing technology, we can now sort of control quantum systems very exquisitely. In fact,

spk_0 we can create new quantum systems with the BEC. And that's, you know, I think that's been very

spk_0 important in terms of quantum computing, quantum sensing, quantum cryptography. You know, it was one

spk_0 of those really important milestones in the new quantum physics. So yeah, no arguments there. I might

spk_0 hire up on your list, but yeah, definitely no argument. And no argument on the next one either,

spk_0 which is the 2013 prize, which had to do with the discovery, experimental discovery.

spk_0 Oh no, it's the theoretical prediction of the Higgs boson, which was then confirmed experimentally

spk_0 at CERN. So who won that prize and why, why were they worthy? Well, the 2013 prize famously went to

spk_0 Francois Englert, the Belgian physicist and the late Peter Higgs, for discovering the mechanism

spk_0 by which subatomic particles get mass. And their work, which they'd originally done in the 60s,

spk_0 was then obviously confirmed by the discovery of what Peter Higgs called the so-called Higgs boson.

spk_0 He never liked it to use that name himself. And that obviously was at the Atlas and the CMS

spk_0 detectors at CERN, large Hadron Collider. So it was a prize that went to the theoretical work

spk_0 that paved the way for understanding mass. And obviously they didn't themselves and

spk_0 discovered the Higgs boson. And I think Peter Higgs was at pains to distance himself from any

spk_0 contribution that he might have made. And the famously the citation did, however, acknowledge

spk_0 the research that CERN discovered it. So it went to those two for work they'd done back in the early 60s.

spk_0 So I kind of think we have to have the Higgs boson on this list. I mean, it would be weird not to

spk_0 include it, but it's not top because there's this strange thing that is really for their theoretical

spk_0 work that they did many years ago. Yeah, it is that that was a funny one. And you know, I think that

spk_0 brought to light, I suppose a controversy about the Nobel Prize in the sense that only three people

spk_0 can be honored by the Nobel Prize. And really there were thousands of people involved in the

spk_0 discovery of the Higgs boson at CERN. It was made by two different collaborations at ListenCMS.

spk_0 And it just seemed a bit weird really that the prize could only go to two people rather than

spk_0 all those other people who worked very hard. But I suppose it would just be a nightmare to

spk_0 decide who out of those thousands of people would win the award. So I mean, I know at the time

spk_0 there was talk about, oh, you know, should they change the rules at the Nobel Prize and give it to

spk_0 collaborations. But I think it was, I hope I get this name right, Lars Brink, I think Lars Brink

spk_0 I spoke to who is a member of the Nobel committee told me that the physics Nobel

spk_0 committee in Sweden basically told me that they, you know, they didn't want thousands of people

spk_0 going round calling themselves Nobel laureates. They wanted to keep it exclusive. So I suppose that's

spk_0 why it's why it's still three people. I mean, even among the theorists themselves,

spk_0 there were several other people involved. There was Tom Kibble, Philip Anderson, who potentially

spk_0 could have been included in that list of theorists. And so there was quite a debate at the time

spk_0 about who else might have won it. So it was those two that got it. So yeah, that's number three on

spk_0 my list. Yeah, well, it's a good choice. And I suppose it illustrates the power of the standard

spk_0 model, doesn't it? That, you know, somebody made a prediction, it was 64 back way back,

spk_0 anyway, a long time ago. And, you know, that prediction held for years and years and years,

spk_0 and then suddenly, and then all of a sudden, in the 21st century, the Higgs was discovered

spk_0 finally. So yeah, it just goes to show the power of the standard model in terms of prediction.

spk_0 And I suppose the ability of experimentalists to interpret that prediction and finally make the

spk_0 discovery. So moving on to number two, this is the 2011 Nobel Prize for Physics. And this was a

spk_0 real shocker, you know, the discovery behind this prize. This is the discovery of what I mean,

spk_0 I suppose what we call dark energy. It's not really the discovery of dark energy because we don't

spk_0 know what dark energy is, but it's a Nobel Prize associated with dark energy. So what's,

spk_0 what happened there? Yes, Amy, so that's the 2011 prize. So that went to again, three people,

spk_0 Brian Schmidt, who had led something called the high Z or Z, high Z, Z, supernovae search team

spk_0 and his colleague Adam Reese and saw Palma to who led another rival team called the supernovae

spk_0 cosmology project. And what those teams were doing were studying these exploding stars, supernovae.

spk_0 And yeah, they always blow up in the same way when they reach the same mass so they're

spk_0 standard candles. And so you can measure distances in the universe. And they're very rare. And they've

spk_0 been carrying out these painstaking surveys of these supernovae. And they thought they would find

spk_0 out that the universe is decelerating, getting the expanding more slowly. But as the data piled up,

spk_0 they realized the data only made sense if the universe has a force that's pushing matter apart.

spk_0 So those three won it for the accelerating expansion of the universe, aka, it's this mysterious

spk_0 dark energy that we still don't really know what it is. So like you say, hey, Michelle, it was

spk_0 quite a shocking finding. It's quite simple to understand. It has implications for where the

spk_0 cosmos is going to go. I mean, who doesn't love those kind of big questions. So that to me is

spk_0 number two on the list. It's quite closely related to the work done by John Mayther and George

spk_0 Smith. They remember they studied the cosmic microwave background. George Smith actually died.

spk_0 That's right. Totally. He died recently. So he'd studied small variations in the CMD,

spk_0 which is the kind of echo of the big bang, the remnants of the large scale structures that we

spk_0 have in today's universe. And the raw Swedish Academy of Sciences said the discovery was as

spk_0 significant as that prize. But to me, this implication of the future of the universe makes it

spk_0 more important, I would say. So that CMD work was the 2006 prize. But I think this edges it.

spk_0 Yeah. I know. I agree. First of all, they discovered that, in a sense, the opposite of what we

spk_0 expected is happening. And then the added bonus is that we have no explanation for why this is

spk_0 happening. We call it dark energy, but who knows what dark energy has. So in a sense, it's

spk_0 sort of opened up a huge field of speculation and work in cosmology and astronomy,

spk_0 astrophysics. So yeah, no arguments there. So drum roll, please. We're on to number one. And

spk_0 that is the 2017 prize, which went to physicists who were involved with the first observation

spk_0 of gravitational waves. So we're still on the cosmological scale here. So what's going on with

spk_0 these gravitational waves? How are they discovered and why is it important? So this was the 2017

spk_0 prize, which again went to three people, Ryan and I. So again, died very recently, Barry Barish and

spk_0 Kippethorn for discovering gravitational waves. And again, there's that link to Einstein. He

spk_0 predicted these what you might call ripples in space time. That's a sort of shorthand for it.

spk_0 And for years, these had been on people's bucket lists as a sort of thing that people wanted to

spk_0 detect. And they built the LIGO detectors, which there are two of them. These huge interferometers

spk_0 one in Louisiana and the other in Washington state. And these are amazing feats of engineering

spk_0 that when a gravitational wave strikes the detector, they can effectively detect changes. And I

spk_0 love this stat. Changes in distance, tinier than the radius of the proton. So really incredible

spk_0 feats of engineering involving thousands of people and some really sensitive measurements.

spk_0 And again, it was that I love it because it was on a certain date. It was Monday, the 14th of

spk_0 September, 2015, so 10 years ago. And the staff had been calibrating the LIGO detector in Living

spk_0 Stone had gone to bed as it happened. And when they left their instruments, it was about to start

spk_0 taking data and the gravitational waves were recorded. And that signal was known as GW-150914

spk_0 after the date. And it was the collision of two black holes, 1.3 billion light years away

spk_0 that hit that detector. And you know what an incredible thing, you know, a real first, it's

spk_0 something that we long sought after. And again, this was something that if you remember,

spk_0 Hey, Mish was everywhere on the news. It was a big big deal at the time. And since then we've

spk_0 detected about what are we? Physicists have detected about 200 gravitational wave events.

spk_0 And what's more, there's this whole field of gravitational wave astronomy. So the idea that you

spk_0 detector an cosmic event with gravitational waves. And then you can look at them with

spk_0 follow-up studies using cosmic rays, neutrinos, photons. And those different things come, give you

spk_0 different information about cosmic events. So I think it's number one on the list. An amazing

spk_0 discovery, something we'd long sought after. Quite simple to understand and opened up this big new

spk_0 field. Yeah, it is amazing. And you know, then there's the historical side of it where I think,

spk_0 am I right in thinking that Albert Einstein predicted gravitational waves in 1915? Is that right

spk_0 when he came up with his general theory of relativity? And it was pretty well 100 years later,

spk_0 wasn't it, that they were actually observed? That's amazing. And the other incredible thing about

spk_0 some the LIGO detectors that made this observation is, you know, that they're huge, but they're quantum

spk_0 instruments, right? You know, they rely on lots and lots of sort of quantum metrology technologies.

spk_0 And you know, they're sort of, well, they're just part of the quantum renaissance that I mentioned

spk_0 earlier. This exquisite control of light, for example, to make those incredible measurements. So

spk_0 yeah, I have to agree with you on that one. I think that's definitely number one for many reasons.

spk_0 Definitely. I'm glad you agree. Obviously, you know, it's totally, totally arbitrary. This list,

spk_0 and you know, everyone else might have had their own separate lists. It's just a bit of fun. There's

spk_0 no, I'm not saying there's any sort of authority to my choice, but that's, that's my pick.

spk_0 Okay. Well, so we're going to go from the last 25 years further, further back into history.

spk_0 And we're going to look at two prizes that were awarded, I think were they awarded roughly in

spk_0 the first decade or thereabouts. Anyway, very early Nobel prizes. And our colleague, Margaret Harris,

spk_0 has written two fascinating articles about, well, these two prizes that are puzzling to say the

spk_0 least, very odd prizes. And I'm afraid Margaret can't join us today, but some, some Matin and I are

spk_0 the French physicist and inventor, Gabriel Litman, for his method of reproducing colors,

spk_0 photographically based on the phenomenon of interference. So are you familiar with this prize,

spk_0 Matin? It's a really interesting one. So yeah, this was the 1908 prize. So at the time,

spk_0 two years before that, Thompson won the prize for discovering the electron.

spk_0 1907, we have the Michelson-Morley experiment that sort of showed there isn't an ether and

spk_0 the speed of lights and so on. So this one kind of came out the bluer bit. So this was, it's for a

spk_0 weird photography method that, well, first of all, it's never really took off. Apparently, for it

spk_0 to take pictures, you need to take a whole minute in sunlight for it to work. You can only see the

spk_0 pictures if you view them head on. And there's the other problem that the mirrored back of the photographic

spk_0 plate needed toxic mercury. So this is hardly a kind of breakthrough. And funnily enough, the reason

spk_0 for the prize being awarded was there was a big ding dong behind the scenes. And it was meant to

spk_0 be Max Planck for his work on quantum, but people were a bit sniffy about quantum physics back

spk_0 then. They weren't quite sure what it was all about. And it hadn't really been experimentally confirmed.

spk_0 So, and then there was this side issue of Max Planck had been nominated by the Swedish

spk_0 physicist and chemist, Svanthe Arenius, who famously predicted that CO2 can affect the climate.

spk_0 And he had a bit of a tiff with another rich mathematician called Gustav Mittag Leffler.

spk_0 And they didn't get on particularly. So Arenius had nominated Max Planck. And he wasn't the chair

spk_0 of the Nobel Committee, but he had a sort of influential voice. But behind the scenes, this other

spk_0 guy, Mittag Leffler, he persuaded the committee members not to vote to vote Dan Planck because he

spk_0 didn't like him. And in the end, he got so Lippon got 23 nominations from 12 people all of whom

spk_0 are French. Lippman is French. And once he got awarded the prize, this Mittag Leffler guy was

spk_0 boasting about his victory. So basically, it was a bit nefarious he got his mates on the panel

spk_0 to vote against Max Planck and four Lippman. And it was this sort of behind the scenes skull

spk_0 degree that led to Lippman winning the 1908 Nobel Prize. It's a really incredible story that

spk_0 I'm not sure how many people are aware of, but that is the person that, you know, he really stands

spk_0 out in those early years. You wonder, why did he win this prize? So that's the story that Margaret

spk_0 dug into. Yeah, it's a really great piece that she's written. And you know, I have to say after

spk_0 reading it and, you know, sort of doing a bit of research online reading about Lippman.

spk_0 You know, I really like it. I mean, sure, okay, maybe it's not physics. Lippman was a physicist,

spk_0 but it all sort of hinges on this concept of structural color, which is something that, you know,

spk_0 it's a really hot topic these days. You know, structural color is the thing that makes some,

spk_0 you know, certain berries look extraordinarily blue or, you know, the colors that appear on some

spk_0 butterflies or on some bird's feathers. And, you know, it's all sort of tied in with metamaterials

spk_0 these days. You know, to me, it feels really modern. But, you know, of course, on the other hand,

spk_0 it was very conky and, you know, the exposure had to be very long, as you say, toxic chemicals.

spk_0 Apparently, people do this today, hobbyists and artists. And so it's sort of a still a thing

spk_0 that people do. They don't use the toxic chemicals anymore. So yeah, I mean, on the face of it,

spk_0 it looks weird, but, you know, there is, you know, I think there is actually some interesting physics

spk_0 in there. And somehow it feels sort of modern. Actually, one thing about some Margaret's article,

spk_0 if you take a look at it, there are images, aren't there, that have been taken, that actually he took,

spk_0 that Lippmann took images of, I suppose they're sort of, they're photographs. So all the light

spk_0 angles were set up properly. And then a photo was taken. But, they do look very nice. I think

spk_0 there's one of the Matterhorn. Isn't the Matterhorn, maybe Momblok or anyways, taken in the Alps,

spk_0 sort of an Alpine scene. I mean, the other thing we always forget is that when Alfin Nobel

spk_0 created his will, it was for the, the prize was meant to go for the person who'd made the most

spk_0 important discovery or invention during the preceding year. And I kind of think that preceding

spk_0 year and invention, that's perhaps been lost a bit over the years. And definitely this was an

spk_0 invention and that had just happened. So I feel in the early years, there was a feeling that we had

spk_0 to knowledge work that had just been done. Whereas in recent years, I think pretty much not always

spk_0 mean the Higgs boson was an exception. That was definitely the previous year and gravitational waves

spk_0 was the horse of the year. But not always is it work that has just happened. Yeah. I mean, the

spk_0 invention bit, yeah, that is something that's forgotten. I mean, last year there was the prize

spk_0 to two computer scientists for their development of AI, artificial intelligence. And that, I

spk_0 suppose, is an invention prize, isn't it? And you can't argue that artificial intelligence is a

spk_0 really important technology. And that, you know, they were honored for inventing it. And speaking

spk_0 of inventions, the next, the next prize is, I suppose, even, even weirder than the photography

spk_0 prize. So fast forward to 1912. And that year's Nobel Prize for Physics went to the Swedish

spk_0 inventor Nils Gustaf Dallan, apologies to any Swedes out there for my pronunciation.

spk_0 For his invention of automatic regulators, for use in conjunction with gas accumulators

spk_0 for illuminating lighthouses and boys. So this guy, it seems, was a sort of gas engineer.

spk_0 Maybe not, you know, the same engineer that comes to fix your boiler in your house. But I don't

spk_0 think he had any connection to physics. He was interested in using gas to lighthouses. I mean,

spk_0 it's not surprising because much of Sweden's coastline is rugged and irregular. So lighthouses were

spk_0 a crucial infrastructure. And apparently at the time, gas was the best thing. I suppose electricity

spk_0 was not, maybe you just couldn't get the wattage through to really pump out a bright light at a

spk_0 lighthouse. So they relied on gas. So his work was important. But again, I think Mark's Plank might

spk_0 have missed out on this one, didn't he? Well, no, it was, so 1909, the prize went to Makone for

spk_0 wireless communication, big name in physics, 1910, Banda Viles for his molecular work, 1911,

spk_0 Wilhelm Vienn again for Blackbody. 1912, the prize people thought it ought to go to the Dutch

spk_0 physicist Kameling on us for superconductivity. But a nasty accident ended up with kind of

spk_0 winning this prize. So just as go back a bit. So yeah, Darlene from what we know was kind of a lazy

spk_0 student when he was younger, apparently he'd made a machine to make himself coffee in the morning.

spk_0 Sounded like an early sort of tease made that he was too lazy to get up and make coffee.

spk_0 But like you say, lighthouses were a sort of thing that were important at the time for shipping.

spk_0 They traditionally were lit by Assetalene, which is very bright, but it can be explosive.

spk_0 And you can't ship it around. So what he did, he created this canister and he filled it with a

spk_0 strange mixture of Asbestos and something called diatomaceous earth. And it was a material that

spk_0 you could pull the Assetalene in like a sponge and then transport it around. So the first thing he

spk_0 did was he created a way of shipping the Assetalene around. He then made it safe by creating a device

spk_0 to turn the Assetalene supply on and off for the lighthouse so it could flash. And then the third

spk_0 thing he did was he made a valve to turn the Assetalene burners on at night and off in the morning

spk_0 automatically without needing any human intervention. So he created a way of shipping Assetalene,

spk_0 making it safe and having it turn on and off. But that year very sadly he was injured in a factory

spk_0 accident and blinded. And so kind of it was a sympathy vote for him because he'd suffered this

spk_0 terrible injury. And it was his brother actually who went to the ceremony in Stockholm on his behalf.

spk_0 So it was a kind of sympathy vote for that injury. I should say that he carried on as a scientist

spk_0 and this is a crazy. He was 10 years later. He invented the Argo Cooker, a so beloved of people

spk_0 with big houses and lots of money. Who knew that the man who won the 1912 Nobel Prize invented

spk_0 the Argo Cooker and won a Nobel Prize? So this is the own Margaret Cause by some margin. It's the

spk_0 long story that he invented the Arga Cooker, which is yeah, as you say, much beloved in the

spk_0 in the British countries. Have you got one Hamish? No. I don't know if I've ever seen,

spk_0 I just don't mix in those circles. No, no, no, no. I am an avid listener to the archers and

spk_0 sometimes there is a mention of the Arga not working or fire up the Arga or that sort of thing.

spk_0 But yeah, that is a really good story. But both of them actually, Litman and Dolan

spk_0 from the early days of the Nobel Prize. And I suppose it is an illustration of how things have

spk_0 changed in terms of timeliness and also utility. You don't really get prizes these days

spk_0 for the invention of something in physics. So I'll be coming up to your predictions for the Nobel

spk_0 Prize this year, Hamish. Yeah, we are. Every year we make predictions and we're rarely right.

spk_0 Sometimes we do get it. Sometimes we're close. But I think it's a bit of a stopped clock

spk_0 effect because well, to be honest, we often put forth the same people every year, people at

spk_0 the top of their game in physics and eventually one or two of them do winner prize. But this year

spk_0 is quantum. Isn't it? Do you think quantum? I personally think it will. I mean, the Nobel

spk_0 committee aren't at full. They do like to sort of acknowledge what's going on in the wider world.

spk_0 I've got a funny feeling. They'll be sucked in by quantum. I do. And you know, part of my belief is

spk_0 inspired by last year's prize, which was won by two computer scientists. And I sort of thought,

spk_0 well, you know, quantum quantum computers, what about the computer science side of it rather than

spk_0 the, you know, the physics side of it? And so I'm going to predict a prize for pioneers of quantum

spk_0 algorithms. But the problem is that I've got four people in mind and only three of them can win.

spk_0 So my contenders are Peter Shaw and Jill Bressard. They're both computer scientists.

spk_0 And then Charles Bennett and David Deutsch. Now, I know Deutsch is definitely a physicist. I

spk_0 think Bennett is also a physicist as well. And I'm going to say that three of those people

spk_0 are going to win for their contributions to the developments of algorithms for quantum computing

spk_0 and quantum cryptography. And, you know, my bias will come out again. I think I'm hoping that

spk_0 Jill Bressard will be in there because of course he's Canadian. And we do love a Canadian Nobel Prize

spk_0 winner. We've had lots of them recently. How many Canadians have won a Nobel Prize for physics?

spk_0 That's not part of my quiz, but it ought to be. Oh, gosh, I don't. I don't know. There's lots more

spk_0 than you would expect. More than you would expect. Yeah. So that's one prediction,

spk_0 sort of based on the fact that quantum is hot and thinking, oh, yes, computer scientists can win,

spk_0 why not these computer scientists? But we also, we sort of have a running infographic

spk_0 that we started to produce a few years ago. And essentially what we do is we divide all the Nobel

spk_0 prizes up into into fields, categories like contest matter physics, particle physics, applied physics.

spk_0 And we sort of chart year on year where the award is given. And the idea being, you know,

spk_0 we're looking for patterns is an award given in particle physics every five years, every six years,

spk_0 that sort of thing. So, you know, if you stare at this thing for long enough, you can see patterns in

spk_0 it. And what's really apparent is that there hasn't been an award for condensed matter physics

spk_0 in a while. And there hasn't been an award in particle physics for a while. Now, the particle

spk_0 physics has been a bit quiet on the particle physics front over the past decade or so. So that's

spk_0 a difficult one. I mean, if you consider the concept of cosmic inflation to be particle physics,

spk_0 maybe you could have an award for Alan Goth, Paul Steinhardt. I'm sure there's some other people

spk_0 that I've left out that could be included in such an award. And for condensed matter, I suppose

spk_0 there's two options. One would be metamaterials where our old friend John Pendry at Imperial College

spk_0 London and David Smith. That's right. Those two have been on a lot of lists for a lot of years.

spk_0 Yeah. And I would add Federico Capato to that. The amazing applied physicist who does a lot of work

spk_0 in, you know, sort of using metamaterials for practical applications. I mean, I think he really,

spk_0 really deserves a Nobel Prize. So it would be great if he won one. And then the other option is

spk_0 twisted, twisted trunx twisted graphene, which has some pretty amazing properties. But I think it might,

spk_0 I don't know, it might be a bit too early for that. And you know, we've already had a graphene

spk_0 Nobel Prize, which you, which wasn't in your top five. It wasn't though. So basically you made

spk_0 four predictions. Like one of one of them might be right. Are you, are you a lexer? But if you have

spk_0 one to choose or you'd go for the quantum stuff. Yeah. Well, I would because I think it's very

spk_0 relevant at the moment. You know, again, it's as quantum renaissance. It's something that,

spk_0 you know, it's gone out of academic physics. It's industry. You know, there's lots of quantum

spk_0 computing startups. Quantum cryptography is being used. So, you know, there's a very practical

spk_0 side of things as well. So I'll go for the quantum algorithms. And yeah, hopefully my fellow Canadian

spk_0 Gilbert Sard will be in there, along with a few other people. Okay. So it's no time for the

spk_0 quiz, Hey, Mitch. Now I had totally forgotten that in 2020, the depths of lockdown, I did a Nobel

spk_0 quiz. I'm glad to find some things I've forgotten I ever did. But you know, there's some questions

spk_0 on there. I'm sure you've definitely forgotten. So I'm not going to go through them all. I love asking

spk_0 you questions, Amish, because you're normally pretty good at these. So, so question one,

spk_0 like not many people have won a Nobel prize in two subjects. And Murray Curie is the famous

spk_0 person who won the chemistry prize and the physics prize. Now, can you remember in which order

spk_0 she won them? Was it physics first and then chemistry or the other way around?

spk_0 Um, well, I've got a 50-50 chance of going this right. Yeah, this is easy. So I'm going to say chemistry.

spk_0 Um, she won the physics prize in 1903 and the chemistry prize in 1911. So physics first,

spk_0 1903 and chemistry in 1911, right. So you got that wrong. Oh, no, not at one. I can next, next question,

spk_0 Amish. Um, right. In 2010, Roy Glauber, his Nobel prize, what happened to it? Was it A,

spk_0 sold for money, B, stolen by burglars, C, thrown in the bin, D, lost in the woods,

spk_0 one to his metal. Um, I think it was stolen. Correct. Stoned by burglars. Um,

spk_0 were they targeting him for his novel prize or it just happened to be on the, uh, on the

spk_0 mental piece when they came in? I can't remember who knows they stole anywhere. They made from gold,

spk_0 aren't they? I think they worth quite a bit. And um, I think it was recovered later. Yeah, I do remember,

spk_0 yeah, reading that it had been recovered, which is good. One at a two. Okay. Third question

spk_0 three, Amish. Um, it's very rare this happens, but which physicist almost decided to turn down the

spk_0 offer of a Nobel prize. Was it A, Paul Dirac, B, Einstein, C, Heisenberg, or D, Schrodinger?

spk_0 Well, I mean, I think Dirac was famous for being, uh, I don't know, sort of strange character,

spk_0 wasn't he? So, um, I think it's got to be Dirac. Correct. So, uh, yeah, it was Paul Dirac. And I

spk_0 think, I think, rather for told him, you'll, you'll get more publicity. If you turn it down,

spk_0 there'll be more noise about it than if you just go and accept it. So he, he, he picks it up.

spk_0 So you got two out of three. Okay. Two questions to go. Amish question four. What informal event

spk_0 do Nobel laureates get invited to in Stockholm after they pick up their medals? Okay, you've got four

spk_0 choices. Is it A, the dog ball, B, the frog ball, C, the hog ball, or D, the warthog ball.

spk_0 Ball as in like a, a do. Yeah. So it's something the students will do, I think, in Stockholm. Which one

spk_0 of those was it dog frog hog or warthog? Oh gosh, I don't know. Um, I mean, apparently Frank

spk_0 will shake love going to it when he went. He enjoyed taking part in this thing. Okay. Um,

spk_0 I mean, I suppose warthog sounds more sort of exciting. You're, you're shaking your

spk_0 head. You're wrong. It's the frog ball. They do the frog ball. So there you go. That is, uh,

spk_0 wrong. Amish, he got two out of four. So they're not doing very well. Final question. Um,

spk_0 this is, this is, this is quite easy. Well, I'm busy. Easy. Okay. So how old was William

spk_0 Lawrence Burr, brag? Do you remember he won the prize with his dad for X-ray,

spk_0 crystallography, and he was the youngest person to win a Nobel prize for physics. So how old

spk_0 was William Lawrence, brag? Was he a 22, b 25, c 28 or d 31? Um, well, before before you gave

spk_0 me those options, I thought, oh, it's got to be about 25. Is it 25? Uh, no, he was, um,

spk_0 oh no, he was, yes, correct. He was 25. Sorry. Yeah. Get my dates mixed up. So he was

spk_0 25. So yeah, Paul William Lawrence, brag, you want it with his dad was 25 years old. So I think

spk_0 you've got three, uh, five, uh, respectable mid, it's decent mid table result. Uh, there are

spk_0 a third of five questions on the physics or website. I won't talk to you with all of them,

spk_0 because I think you ought to know the rest of them. Uh, why is that because I, uh, those

spk_0 ones that I came up with, well, no, well, I kept the answers even if I came up with a quiz.

spk_0 But one of them is what day the week is the Nobel prize normally awarded on? Well, that's, yeah,

spk_0 what for physics? It's Tuesday. Yeah. It's Tuesday. Yeah. It's Tuesday. So yeah, I'll give you

spk_0 an extra point for you. Four or six then. Um, well, well done. Okay, Doug. Well, thanks for joining

spk_0 me, Matin. Um, and I should say that, um, all of the articles that we've talked about in this

spk_0 episode, I'll put links to them in the notes for this week's podcast. I'm afraid that's all the time

spk_0 we have. And I would like to thank American elements for their generous support of this episode.

spk_0 Thanks for joining me, Matin and a special thanks to our producer, Fred Isles. We'll be back again

spk_0 next week with an episode devoted to this year's Nobel Prize for Physics, which of course will

spk_0 be announced next Tuesday. See you then. American Elements. The world's manufacturer of engineered

spk_0 and advanced materials. American Elements. Now, invent.

The curious history of Nobel prizes: from lighthouses to gravitational waves

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