Springboks are Back-to-Back Champions! TRC Wrap Up & Looking Ahead

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spk_0 Congratulations Victor, although it's making me feel sick.

spk_0 Everything in South Africa is just perfect, we're loving rugby, it's going great.

spk_0 The coaches are the best coaches in the world.

spk_0 The difference between South Africa winning the championship and

spk_0 that's winning the championship was 20 minutes in the sick and half in Wellington.

spk_0 I think Ireland is starting to fall away a little bit.

spk_0 I think England will probably be a tougher test match, but France, I think it's going to be

spk_0 very difficult for South Africa to go and beat them in France.

spk_0 I want South Africa to win every single game and I want New Zealand to win every single game.

spk_0 Welcome to rugby rivals for another week where Victor is going to tell us about why he's a champion.

spk_0 A double champion, double World Cup and double rugby champion champion.

spk_0 Yeah, I must say I'm very happy for the box.

spk_0 I don't think it was our base performance, actually probably one of our worst performances

spk_0 in the rugby championship, but it's always difficult.

spk_0 I think especially after a week like the previous one in Durban where you really put a team

spk_0 away just to get the intensity back up there, to get the commitment there.

spk_0 And also I think you start off thinking everything is going to be easy and then you make a lot of

spk_0 mistakes and you know hard to get it back, but again, that only needed to win the game.

spk_0 And that's what they did. Why is that hard? Like surely you go into a game with a lot of

spk_0 confidence, a lot of self-pleasy, you just pummeled that team. Why is it always, you're always

spk_0 saying it's hard to South Africa to double up like that? Yeah, I think because you need to start

spk_0 from zero again. And if you look at that first half, I mean we had two, three great line breaks

spk_0 and then just forcing the boss a little bit away, if that expectation is not on you, you can just

spk_0 go out, play your game, put the pressure on when this score comes, it comes. When you've just put

spk_0 a team away, it's almost like in the back of your mind that you have to beat them by the same

spk_0 or better again. And I think sometimes you just overplay your and you just force things,

spk_0 you don't have the patience. So yeah, it's just difficult. Yeah, I think it's a combination

spk_0 Ricardo. So if you think about the spring box and congratulations, Victor, although it's

spk_0 making me feel sick, telling you congratulations because it makes me feel sick. Because we wanted

spk_0 to win the championship, we wanted to stop you getting another record. But that didn't happen

spk_0 in luck mate to be fair, you thoroughly deserved it. I think there was 40 minutes in the All Blacks

spk_0 that they'll probably regret for a long time. And when you talk about the difference between

spk_0 two weeks winning an Eden Park, winning pretty well, I thought spring box played well, we played

spk_0 well and then getting pumped in that second half. So I think Ricardo answered your question.

spk_0 There's a whole lot of different things. There's the physical sides weigh more as well.

spk_0 Like sometimes coaches tend to overdo it when they're worried about the team getting up. So they

spk_0 over train the team. And so there's a whole lot of different things. Like you're a competitor

spk_0 Ricardo. In fact, you're a annoying competitor, right? You've always been like that.

spk_0 If people don't know, Ricardo was my captain. So I have to look at his fat ass as a number eight

spk_0 when I was playing first 15 rugby as a halfback. But you imagine what you're like when you lose.

spk_0 And like this Argentinian side is a really good side. They're a really proud side. Like Victor's

spk_0 mentioned this before. Some of their attack is absolutely amazing. Like even in their loss at

spk_0 Trickenham, they did some amazing things on attack. So they're a proud nation. So you imagine

spk_0 when New Zealand or South Africa lose the following week, we're going to be up and we're going to be

spk_0 really annoyed. And so we're going to perform. And I thought the Argentinians had performed right

spk_0 across this championship and they're not a team to take lightly. So they would have come off the,

spk_0 they would have been disappointed with their loss. You know, in South Africa and they go to London and

spk_0 they wanted to prove a point. Again, South Africa were probably 2.3% off. You know, I've talked to a

spk_0 lot of people about the about the about the all black performance and everyone's talking about

spk_0 it's this and it's that. But it also could be physical. When you come off Eden Park, there's a

spk_0 massive mental drain. You might over train. There's a whole lot of different scenarios that go on.

spk_0 And I think at this level, the difference is like 2 to 3%. Like the difference between South

spk_0 Africa winning the championship and us winning the championship was 20 minutes in the second half in

spk_0 Wellington. Right? And a couple of moments. And those moments change the game at this level. So for

spk_0 me, retrospective, it's just been a great championship. It's been a great competition. I think

spk_0 Argentina have been outstanding. I think Australia are way better side. So Africa and New Zealand

spk_0 have been put to the pump like, you know, and it's that's how you want the championship to be.

spk_0 And long may it live. Long may it live. And long may we bring on the Northern tour because now what

spk_0 we've got to do is go over and prove to the Northern hemisphere that we are still the best competition

spk_0 in the world. Yeah, yeah, Ricardo. And the thing that people don't remember is there's two teams

spk_0 on the field. I mean, we're definitely not 30 points better than New Zealand. So to go out next

spk_0 week and play against them, the chance of beating them by 30 won't happen. I think it's just in the

spk_0 game where there's one or two moments to take those opportunity and in a game, someone can just

spk_0 fall away all day there. Same thing against Argentina. I don't think we're a team that will beat them

spk_0 every week by 30, 40 points. It's just on the day we were good. They weren't as good. They made

spk_0 mistakes. Then they're going to a next game. Probably don't believe they can win. So they actually

spk_0 just want to keep the score low. And then it's much harder to put that big corner team. So there's

spk_0 always two teams on the field. And like JK is saying, I think these four teams are really close

spk_0 to each other. And it was a fantastic rugby championship. And I mean, actually before last week,

spk_0 we were talking about the expectation of New Zealand fans. I mean, everything in South Africa

spk_0 is just perfect. We're loving rugby. It's going great. The coaches are the best coaches in the

spk_0 world. The players we've got. I mean, if you look at New Zealand, they also got 19 points. Same

spk_0 as us in the rugby championship. And they worried. Is it the right coach? Do they have the right

spk_0 players? So yeah, I just think expectations in New Zealand is so much higher than anywhere else in

spk_0 the world. I think with this team, we're getting there with the spring boxes. Well, and yeah,

spk_0 I think it was a fantastic rugby championship. It's great that Argentina is performing. It's

spk_0 great that Australia is back. And yeah, it's actually a pretty there won't be a rugby championship

spk_0 next year. Do you think JK did the all-blacks meet your expectations against Australia?

spk_0 Yeah, we beat them twice. And we kept the bledest low cut when we kept the even pack alive. So yeah,

spk_0 of course, those are reserved for the performance. But I wanted to beat South Africa.

spk_0 Just he doesn't want to talk about I think that this is one of the best performances of the

spk_0 all-blacks especially that's taken off. I thought Australia probably had them in bed under

spk_0 under wraps in the first half and I thought Australia could have laid going into half-time. But I

spk_0 really enjoyed what I saw of the all-blacks in that second half. They played a clever game. They

spk_0 kept Australia out of the game. I laughed those little kicks in behind on the front foot running

spk_0 onto the ball. So I thought the second half of all-blacks was really good for me.

spk_0 If I can just get back to the conversation, I think I'll start with yours, Victor, and then I'll

spk_0 go back to your question Ricardo because New Zealand is naturally questioned everything when we lose.

spk_0 So the reason why we're a little bit concerned is we're a little bit concerned about, and this is

spk_0 a whole bunch of x rugby guys getting to get Victor right. So this is, and then people stopping me

spk_0 in the airport. So when our schoolboy side gets bashed up by Aussie, when our under-twinnies lose

spk_0 the World Cup in to South Africa, we start saying what is what is our yeah thank you for throwing

spk_0 that in a car. Thank you very, very good you just throw those little bombs in. But I ask questions

spk_0 okay because we want to win everything and I'm okay with that. So when we lose that schoolboy

spk_0 game, we've lost the under-twinnies over the summer and our team is probably not performing how

spk_0 the country want. I think it's right that we question what is our high performance doing? You know,

spk_0 I firmly believe that when you as traitor South African people that you are and you left us

spk_0 from super rugby for money, you money, hungry South African people, it had a real effect on super

spk_0 rugby. I don't think super rugby now prepares us for the rugby at the highest level. I firmly

spk_0 believe that. So we question a lot mate, we question a lot and I think that's a good thing. Are people

spk_0 listening? Who knows? Getting back to your question Ricardo, as an all black you always want to get

spk_0 better right? So did the all black get better over the championship? And my my challenge to us as

spk_0 all black is we're probably still struggling with a little bit of inconsistency. I believe with

spk_0 Victor, I believe what Victor said I think that was our best performance. I think we were put under pressure

spk_0 against Australia and we held strong. Our kicking game was really good. I think I'm a big believer

spk_0 in combinations and I don't know what you're like Victor, but you know being a back, I think when

spk_0 you see when you see Jordy freed up a wee bit and he starts putting little kicks in, it means

spk_0 that the combination that he had with with Quintu Pire was a good combination. Is our loose forward

spk_0 combination the right one yet? You know, we saw we saw Ardy probably a little bit quiet, is that

spk_0 the game plan or is he just having a flat moment? I mean this is our world's best carrier of the ball.

spk_0 So I think rightly New Zealand got better over the championship but inconsistency cost us that

spk_0 inconsistency in the second half against South Africa and the inconsistency of not getting up

spk_0 like South Africa. What was the difference? We played Argentina one week and we smashed them,

spk_0 we played really well in wherever it was Kodoba and then we lost the next week in Buenos Aires,

spk_0 whereas this South African team adjusts a little bit of a head of us with consistency and that won

spk_0 them the competition. So I think it's okay to question Victor, we've lost two world cups, man.

spk_0 I know you're going to keep reminding me that, we've just lost two champions in the world and if

spk_0 you're a Kiwi that's not good enough and I think we should look in the mirror and say it's not

spk_0 good enough. I just think the time of New Zealand being the number one team in the world dominating,

spk_0 having 85 plus percent, it's going to be hard to stay at that level. I think because everyone

spk_0 is just closer. I think if you look at the four top teams South Africa, New Zealand, I'll say

spk_0 Ireland and France, I think when they play each other 10 times it will be very close to 50-50

spk_0 beating each other. It won't be like in the old days when New Zealand were 90 percent and the

spk_0 other guys fight to win one or two. And I've got no problem with that, mate. And I think that's

spk_0 good thing for rugby. We need the world cup of rugby to get better and better, like the world cup

spk_0 of soccer. I mean, it's Italy who I'm passionate about. Can't even qualify for the world cup,

spk_0 the last soccer world cups, right? So I agree with you. I understand what you're saying,

spk_0 but I still think that as Kiwi's weak question. So for me, the all blacks at this moment,

spk_0 traveling well, I really enjoyed that we've got some young players coming in. We changed the

spk_0 football team on the weekend, Victor, which is we haven't done, right? So we put Quinnon,

spk_0 you know, we changed a few of the players, some of them through injuries. And so I think that's

spk_0 a really good thing. I think for us, I'm not Christian in the all blacks, I'm questioning,

spk_0 is our high performance and our competitions preparing our team to have a winning

spk_0 percentage as high as it should be? So what seems to come through is that South Africans are

spk_0 eternally optimistic and New Zealanders are eternally pessimistic. So that's good. So we've

spk_0 established that. We're a miserable race. We're not happy with everything. And South Africa just

spk_0 celebrates everything. Rick, just wait, I mean, after the one loss against Australia at Alice Park,

spk_0 it was chaos in South Africa as well. If we lost another one in Cape Town, it was like,

spk_0 will they fire us here? I mean, after he was one, two world cups. So I think both nations,

spk_0 the expectation is very high, but I think the expectation with New Zealand is just a little bit higher

spk_0 than what we we've got in South Africa. We're both listening. Whenever you go to South Africa,

spk_0 they always ask you the question, what do you think of our beautiful country? Like, you know,

spk_0 you just can't answer that with anything other than, oh, it's beautiful. And I think that's

spk_0 the beautiful thing about South Africans. Who was your, we'll start with you, Victor. Who were the

spk_0 two players in the rugby championship that impressed you the most? I think firstly, I'm not going

spk_0 to call us South African. So firstly, from Australia, I think Wilson, their captain is just an

spk_0 outstanding rugby player. The way he led that team, every time they were under pressure,

spk_0 he kind of stood up, just his lines, he run, he almost makes me think of Owen Finnegan

spk_0 of old. We just he runs the right time at the right moment, give him a momentum to his team,

spk_0 and when there's a big play, he's normally the one that steps up. So he was pretty outstanding for

spk_0 me. And then in the South African team, I think the performance of Sasha in that urban game and

spk_0 even this weekend, in that first off, he's a special player and I think he's going to do special

spk_0 things for South Africa. Okay. Well, skeleton, I thought was unbelievable, I was, I wasn't happy

spk_0 that he left the field because I'd never liked seeing a player leave the field. But he started the

spk_0 game on the weekend by like pushing Arie in the face and annoying people. And I just thought

spk_0 physical presence, especially against South Africa early, was just a thing to behold. Like any

spk_0 carried the team with him with a bit of belief. So I thought he was outstanding. And unfortunately,

spk_0 he wasn't around the whole time. And this is this is this is an argument around Southern hemisphere,

spk_0 this is Northern hemisphere and where all the money is, right. I think Sasha was unbelievable.

spk_0 He is like, I think of Dan Carter and Grant Fox and Johnny Wilkinson had a baby to be him.

spk_0 He seems to have everything because athleticism is amazing, acceleration is amazing.

spk_0 It takes a lot of courage for the modern player just to read what's in front of them. And I don't

spk_0 know what the structure is, but I know Brownie pretty well, you know, from a from a attack coaching

spk_0 point of view. And this kid's just playing with incredible confidence. And that's hard to do when

spk_0 you're a young man and when you live in South Africa or New Zealand, right. So for me, so for me,

spk_0 that's been that's been really good. I think we haven't had we haven't had anyone in the all Blacks

spk_0 that knew that sort of stood up and played played like you think, wow, like, you know, Wallace

spk_0 Satiti last year was was amazing. I think to poor Vi, I've really enjoyed his ability to play

spk_0 from from six and seven. I'm sad that he's probably going to be out for the season. So I've really

spk_0 enjoyed him coming into a leadership role. So for me, um, you guys will just need to work on

spk_0 these celebrations. It feels like he's playing in in the UK for Saracens with all these celebrations.

spk_0 Yeah, and I agree with that. I think that's yeah, I do agree with that. I think we're both a

spk_0 little bit old school around that. I don't like those little celebrations. I don't mind when you

spk_0 score a try. And then I thought Cam Royguard coming back into the side, you know, you may be

spk_0 better at the back. You Victor, but we've always had two types of halfback. We've always had the,

spk_0 you know, the, the halfback sort of that's like a third loose forward, you know, really like a

spk_0 Justin Marshall or, you know, when I played it was, um, you know, Andrew Donald old shuffles, we used

spk_0 to call him. And then you've got guys like, you know, the clerical, you've got, um, far, you've got

spk_0 far fawful, you got, you know, Aaron Smith where they're just great passes and great rounder

spk_0 and annoying little people. Whereas I think Cam Royguard's got a combination. He's that big guy.

spk_0 you know, you wouldn't want to defend around the Ruck when you're tired because he, you know,

spk_0 he's just going to have a go. So having him back has been like a revelation. And I think,

spk_0 I think what you need to realise to win World Cup and to have to win championships, and I know

spk_0 Victorium12 and Aero is 19 combination as fundamental. So your 19 combination is really

spk_0 important for me. I just want to go back on that comment. If you say Justin Marshall was

spk_0 force loose force, like playing up, I love it. Never seen him in a break time. Maybe Brian

spk_0 Byron Keller, but Justin were more the guy putting everyone away I think.

spk_0 Actually, can I mention the players? Is that okay with you too?

spk_0 If you can ask yourself the same question. Have you also?

spk_0 The player that really impressed me just because of the way he just took the test rugby was

spk_0 Eroi Carter. I thought that he very quickly became one of our best players. His work rate was

spk_0 incredible. His confidence from the moment he stepped on the park was amazing, like he was born

spk_0 to play test rugby. And you know, he was always trying to take people on. I was just so impressed with

spk_0 him that so quickly he could become one of our best players. Super starman. He's a super star,

spk_0 that boy. You and I just agreed on something. Yeah. First on the 30 years. Yeah. So let's move on.

spk_0 I think Anna Tawinger, you're talking about that. Exactly. Exactly. But let's think about pathways,

spk_0 right? And I think the sevens should still be a pathway especially for backs. And I know in the

spk_0 last few, I don't know what it's like in South Africa, but in New Zealand in the last few,

spk_0 it's been a bit separate. So we've had our sevens contract players and we've had our 15s contract

spk_0 players. And there hasn't been a lot of crossover. But I think Eroi is one of those guys that like,

spk_0 you know, he's a qualified electrician. He's done the hard yards. He hasn't come through the

spk_0 traditional pathway. He was an amazing sevens player. But the thing I like about the way he plays

spk_0 is that his individual skills are from sevens. You know, when you get to wide channel and sevens,

spk_0 you've got to clean out properly, right? Or you get hammered. And I think those crossover skills

spk_0 that he's brought to the game are really, really good. So we need to look at sevens as a pathway as well

spk_0 for guys coming across. I just like how New Zealand is following the spring rocks at the moment.

spk_0 I mean, we started with a high pitch with a wing as that needs to be full backs under the

spk_0 high ball. Then we changed to bringing sevens players into with gold, gold, gold,

spk_0 be goodly orange. Now you guys are doing the same. It's nice that you guys are following success.

spk_0 It's always good. Victor, like we've never followed. So they're giving you boys,

spk_0 followed us. I'll just remind you, you have a new zylinder in your coaching staff in the backs.

spk_0 Just remind us. Just trying to teach him something that we can send him back for you guys.

spk_0 So, Victor, you're in camp with Japan at the moment. What's your program here?

spk_0 Yeah, it just arrives yesterday. We have been on a split camp with a forwards and a backs,

spk_0 a forwards at Jön Oita. It's my first time here, while the backs is in Miyazaki. Then we join

spk_0 up together on Thursday. We've got Australia A. We'll probably play like a B side against them.

spk_0 They knew Australia. Then it's into their inner fear tour, starting off with a spring box at

spk_0 Trickenham. So, pretty tough to afford the boys up north. I think Miyazashi, Miyamoto Musashi was

spk_0 from Oita, wasn't he? The famous samurai. I took a photo yesterday with a samurai, maybe it's him.

spk_0 Let's talk about that northern tour. From the South African, the all black perspective.

spk_0 It's a great opportunity to just get another gauge on where they are in terms of,

spk_0 so the all black start with that big game against Trimby's Irish team in Chicago.

spk_0 Then, basically, they have a grand slam, I think. South Africa has got a hell of a tour

spk_0 including playing France in France, obviously. What do you mean, Ricardo, when you say get a gauge?

spk_0 Well, you know, it was constantly tough. Well, the world champions South Africans have to,

spk_0 when everything, they're South African, right? They're the world champions twice in the

spk_0 double championship. So, they're under a lot of pressure to go north and prove themselves.

spk_0 Is that what you're saying? Right? Gage themselves? I haven't been proven enough. Do we need to do more?

spk_0 Listen, I think this northern hemisphere trip is going to be very exciting.

spk_0 I think I'm a full believer. The big threat for New Zealand and the spring walks is France at the moment.

spk_0 If you look at their team in the previous World Cup, they were outstanding, actually.

spk_0 Still a young squat. They've got some brilliant players in there.

spk_0 If you look at the top 14 with the lose and Bordeaux, just playing unbelievable rugby.

spk_0 Dominating the Heinerk and Cup or the Investig Cup as it's called now.

spk_0 I think France is a big threat. I think, and it's a pretty

spk_0 dreamy is not yet, I think Ireland is starting to fall away a little bit. I think England will

spk_0 probably be a tougher test match at the end of the year, but France, I think it's going to be

spk_0 very difficult for South Africa to go and beat them in France. I think to get to World Cups

spk_0 nowadays and to be competitive, you need to know how to win and you need to win tough.

spk_0 For the New Zealanders to go on a grand slam, if you're a young, like we grew up dreaming of

spk_0 winning grand slams and it's going to be incredibly difficult. I agree with Victor on Ireland.

spk_0 I have no idea where they are at the moment. I don't think they've had a 9 and 10 with

spk_0 Jamison, but now what are they going to do at 10? I think they've got some challenges,

spk_0 they've got some players that are getting older. France, I believe, are the best side in the world.

spk_0 I think that the coach made some mistakes at the last World Cup with how long he played,

spk_0 especially DuPont. I think he left him out there 15 minutes too long in that game,

spk_0 that they lost and he was gasped at the end. But they are unbelievable. They sent

spk_0 their second side to New Zealand and not only were they incredibly well coached, they were full

spk_0 of talent and full of really good technical players, so the Ruck was aggressive. So I agree with

spk_0 Victor. I think that France are the biggest threat on the Northern Tour. I have no idea how

spk_0 Ireland's going to face up. England's always going to be tough at Twickenham, although there's a

spk_0 ortho just lately and there's man management skills, whether that's true or not, who knows,

spk_0 but we'll probably find out. Scotland's always the banana peel because they're always better.

spk_0 They're a bit like Argentina. They're always better than people give them credit for and you've

spk_0 got to look out. So the hardest thing for us though is it's the end of the year and

spk_0 fatigue is a real issue. In this interview, too, I was just one time with you two really joined

spk_0 together as the Southern Hemisphere taking on the North. Are you together in this?

spk_0 I think we're coming together. I see Trimby's got a very nice video of you Sir John Cohen this

spk_0 weekend, this whole week, all over social media. So I think as we go up North, we'll go back to

spk_0 South versus North. Totally. Socially, I want South Africa to win every single game and I want

spk_0 to continue to perform and get better. When's Joe Schmidt finishing? He's still doing the

spk_0 end of year two. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, he finishes next year. So, you know, for me, the Northern

spk_0 Hemisphere is a different rugby. It's a different type of game and I love it. I mean, I think the

spk_0 Six Nations won are the greatest competitions. I think South Africa have better set up to play

spk_0 in the Northern Hemisphere now just because they've got so many players playing over there and they

spk_0 understand the system, they understand how it works, they understand the game. I mean, the game's

spk_0 way more on the ground as an epic day. You know, like you even see it when you get an English referee

spk_0 on the weekend with Aussie. So many people on the ground. So it's a different type of game.

spk_0 But it's a fantastic opportunity for the South to so we're still strong.

spk_0 I'm just going to, I just people we go, there's just one thing I wanted to just acknowledge some

spk_0 devastating news this week. You know, when we hear about Lewis Moody and his diagnosis with him,

spk_0 he's done so much for so many other people and you can see when he was being interviewed. Really,

spk_0 it's just such a hard thing for him to comprehend. It's hard for any of us to comprehend. So

spk_0 so all I love to to Lewis and the family and you know, I mean, this is a time where the rugby

spk_0 community is really not about rivals but we're all in this together and we just wish him.

spk_0 Do we just wish him the best that he possibly can be? Yeah, I mean, I, I, I kind of imagine,

spk_0 I can't imagine what he's, what him and his family are going through and the courage that he's

spk_0 showed as a rugby player and the courage that he's shown post to, you know, just to give to so

spk_0 many other people. What he walk across the Sahara Desert, you know, he's been raising money for

spk_0 brain cancer. My thoughts just go out to him and and he'll, he'll fight man and I think the most

spk_0 important thing is be great to see him on the Northern tour. I hope to get to see him. This game,

spk_0 like you said, Ricardo, you know, I, I, I just love our game because our game is about rivalry but

spk_0 then shaking hands and having a beer and to see one of our mates like that and you probably,

spk_0 you know, you probably met him a probably a bit more than me Victor. Yeah, just want to say,

spk_0 our thoughts are going out to him and I think the whole rugby public and I think like Donna saying,

spk_0 that's where the rugby public calls together. I mean, I went through the whole process pretty close

spk_0 with US front of Esteson and it's not an easy road but as US, yeah, he's a fighter and, yeah,

spk_0 there's always miracles so let's hope and let's keep believing.

spk_0 That's rugby rivals to this week.

Springboks are Back-to-Back Champions! TRC Wrap Up & Looking Ahead

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