Special Episode: Interview with Wes Marshall (Author: Killed by a Traffic Engineer)

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello, I'm James Warren with the Denver Urbanism Podcast and today I'm joined for a very special interview with West Marshall

spk_0 West is a professor here in Denver at CU Denver

spk_0 He's the author of killed by a traffic engineer and he has a pretty new podcast with David Zipper

spk_0 I do yeah called look both ways. It's phenomenal right now. There's four episodes out of let's not all of them

spk_0 I would recommend everybody go listen

spk_0 So thanks for coming on the show

spk_0 Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, podcast things been fun so far. Yeah, we're doing our fifth episode next week

spk_0 Yeah, really puts our podcast to shame. I was like oh god. We gotta be doing that better. We gotta be

spk_0 We're figuring out as we go the technology's been like the trickiest part always is yeah, I think I'm my microphone is

spk_0 Rock solid now. Heck yeah, yeah, we've had to toss out a couple of things I messed up recording but

spk_0 Why don't we start with you know a lot of our listeners and viewers will already know who you are

spk_0 But why don't you start with look both ways? Why is your podcast called that?

spk_0 So it's not called that because we think that's good advice for like a DOT to be giving people right is called that because we're trying to look

spk_0 Both ways of transportation issues like we start off each podcast by saying it's a pragmatic look at transportation

spk_0 So we're not trying to be just

spk_0 reactive and say this is bad. This is bad

spk_0 I'm so when David would say like oh fair-free trans is bad. I'm trying to look at the other side of it like well

spk_0 Here's some good things about something like that that could come out of that so I think the interesting thing about these topics is

spk_0 There's usually no single right answer

spk_0 So trying to look at things from different issues like you know one of the names we discard it was like roundabout

spk_0 Yeah, looking around the topics look both ways just kind of rolled off the time a little bit better

spk_0 Sure, yeah, so I don't know that that's yeah

spk_0 Not too much time come a bit names and it's a very important part of the process. Yeah, so you know

spk_0 On the subject of safety

spk_0 We this past weekend just had another tragic pedestrian death

spk_0 It happened on 14th Avenue in West Coast facts

spk_0 This is a street that I know particularly well. I used to live in the neighborhood now

spk_0 I live in a Jason neighborhood and I know all these safety advocates in that area have been fighting specifically about

spk_0 14th for just years sitting down with the director of transportation and all kinds of people from Doddy and saying hey

spk_0 People go too fast here. Hey slow this down. Hey, these are the things that we want and not somebody's dead

spk_0 It's not the first time somebody's died in this area. So I have two questions one like do you have anything that you would say to the advocates who are I think are

spk_0 Reeling right now and not sure how to feel in this moment and then to do you have anything that you would say to you know

spk_0 That the folks who are responsible for this at a city level

spk_0 It's a terrible tragedy. I mean

spk_0 It gives us something to talk about and try to use the security get better the same time like this should not be happening

spk_0 Like we can do better and you know at least on my side of Denver like 13th and 14th are there one way couplets. Yeah, right

spk_0 I'm not saying like one way

spk_0 Necessarily is bad, but the way they're designed is like a many highway. Yeah, right?

spk_0 So at one point we were trying to do a research study just to look at the big drop off and like property values going from like

spk_0 13th to 12 like yeah living on some of those one-way

spk_0 Streets where cars are moving fast they're oftentimes like three lanes of one way traffic

spk_0 It would be tough to live on and I feel bad, but it also is even tougher to like walk or bike on like they're not meant for that

spk_0 I know it is trying to kind of pull some of the traffic off of coalfax, but there are better ways to do it

spk_0 Like we have a grid in these neighborhoods like we can use the grid more efficiently

spk_0 But you know trying to do it in the way that we've done it

spk_0 It's we it does it goes against everything we know about safety in so many different ways

spk_0 So you gotta I mean that's been on my bucket list of things that fix in Denver for a long time. So

spk_0 You know sadly when stuff like this happens it gives the advocates an opportunity to try to talk people in the change because I

spk_0 Sometimes hard to argue with safety stuff like yeah, you've probably been in those meetings for people do say oh

spk_0 I don't want this like it doesn't look good and it's like well, this is for safety and you would never

spk_0 Ever like tell us structural engineer to use a bigger beam because some

spk_0 Neighborhood crank says that they don't like the size of the beam

spk_0 But we do that with transportation all time. Yeah, just let the loudest voice in the room tell us not to do something that we know is good for safety

spk_0 Because they don't want it for their neighborhood and that's like as an engineer that was

spk_0 Started off on the structural side it feels crazy to me, but yeah, I know full well why that happens because we've

spk_0 Precured rated some atrocities with

spk_0 You know highways through neighborhoods and all that sort of stuff we did so we need this public participation process, but

spk_0 When it comes to safety we should have some the way to do what we know is safer

spk_0 Yeah, on that subject I want to start a little bit granular and then maybe zoom in a little bit. So

spk_0 Denver has the vision zero rapid response program where they come in somebody's been

spk_0 severely injured or killed by a car and or by a car driver, you know, maybe an engineer. I don't know

spk_0 and

spk_0 They implement some type of solution based on what happened there

spk_0 I know that sometimes this isn't always done in a way that

spk_0 You know, I think it's a little underfunded. I'm thinking of one example specifically where they added a lane of parking

spk_0 To a street to you know narrow the street a little bit practically. Yeah

spk_0 You're also blocking an car infrastructure. You're making that a little bit of a less nice place to walk

spk_0 I mean, there's other kind of ramifications of that

spk_0 From a vision zero rapid response kind of what are you seeing around the world that's working to address some of those safety things and

spk_0 You know, what could we bring home? Well, the start with I would say the rapid response team is a great first step

spk_0 Because most places when somebody gets hurt

spk_0 They don't want to change anything because they feel like if they change it

spk_0 They're sort of admitting that it was their fault in some way the fact that Denver's willing to go out there and look

spk_0 What could we have done better yeah and change it in the short term is a huge step forward

spk_0 So in this country. I don't only know in New York if having a similar type thing

spk_0 So in Denver start of that I was like this is great. So my safety class that I teach we go out there with

spk_0 That team and take a tour of a particular thing. So we see how they work

spk_0 But when you see how they work too like one of the members of their team is the the officer right so the officers reading off

spk_0 The crash report and the crash report is blaming the humans for whatever happened

spk_0 Just the way I talked about and in terms of the way all our crashes can easily be too easily be blamed on the humans. So

spk_0 A lot of times they're all listening to that and it's like oh, we need to educate people better

spk_0 We need to enforce better

spk_0 But if you take a step back and look at like these intersections or whatever it is like the one we saw last time

spk_0 A lot of the things are so obvious like where the pedestrian

spk_0 Got killed they were crossing spear near cul-fax

spk_0 And where they were coming out of there's a huge

spk_0 Cabinet for the signal right blocking the

spk_0 Vision line of the driver that is taking the right turn on the spear. Yeah, there's no way for them to see the pedestrian right

spk_0 We've designed it in a way that would lead to these bad safety outcomes and then we get the bad safety outcomes

spk_0 And the fact that they're out there trying to do something like that's an issue where how do you move that cabinet?

spk_0 It's hard. It's extensive. So they were trying to do other stuff

spk_0 You know, maybe you were circling right turns on red would have helped that cause there's a lot of choice we could do but

spk_0 The fact that they're out there is a big first step. So how do we

spk_0 Do better they put more money into this? Yeah, get out there and you know, I would I actually have told them this like they need to

spk_0 Almost when they go out to see these crashes now don't just kind of walk around the intersection like pretend

spk_0 You're doing what that person was doing put yourself in their shoes try to understand why they were doing what they were doing

spk_0 Because the one we had seen the previous year like you see where the bite says is coming from and like what they were thinking

spk_0 Isn't going to be the same as what we were thinking when we were standing there to send an intersection kind of looking at the whole thing and yeah

spk_0 And kind of the grand scheme of things so you kind of have to do it and then you go to the perspective of the driver

spk_0 When you see where the bite says coming from there's no way they could have possibly seen them because yeah on that particle factors that big concrete thing over by like the

spk_0 You know whatever but there's right yeah, there are legitimate things that we could fix

spk_0 But you don't see that unless you kind of put yourself in their shoes and try to understand the situation they were in totally yeah, that makes a lot of sense

spk_0 Zooming out to you know, you you've talked about the a pillar on cars

spk_0 You've talked a little bit about clear zones next to highways and in larger arterials

spk_0 You know

spk_0 Some of this stuff I imagine is like

spk_0 Federal right like we're talking like if you want to fix the a pillar

spk_0 I think on the podcast you mentioned it's

spk_0 Cars have to support three times their way when they flip and we've got heavier and heavier cars and that's a result of a federal

spk_0 You know the cafe standards or whatever and and the 3x

spk_0 Weight requirements of federal standard and so like

spk_0 When we look at some of these systemic levers that can be pulled what can be done locally and what kind of if we just need to advocate to

spk_0 Higher levels that needs to be fixed. Well that a pillar example

spk_0 I think I mentioned was like a middle schooler from Maryland that yeah designed

spk_0 Basically they had a camera and they also had a car and they

spk_0 projected what they were seeing on the a pillar so when you're driving

spk_0 The a pillar looks like it's not even there because it's projecting what you would see right right

spk_0 Like if a middle schooler can come up with that for their science fair project

spk_0 It doesn't have to be a federal intervention like somebody can do something

spk_0 To make these problems better and sitting around and waiting for them to

spk_0 You know make it an industry standard. I don't think it's going to be the

spk_0 The most fruitful way to proceed with this so I think we can do better

spk_0 But sometimes it's understanding that this is a problem. I don't think a lot of people

spk_0 Understand like what the a pillar would mean in terms of

spk_0 Seeing a pedestrian from your perspective like stuff like that

spk_0 Um, but once you understand it is a problem

spk_0 You know you look at some of the trucks now and I'm still the kind of person that will look over my shoulder when I'm changing

spk_0 Lanes and the way cars are designed now, which is really hard to like the blind spots are getting bigger and bigger and

spk_0 Everyone's relying on

spk_0 The technology to save the day like I remember the first time I was in a car that had that technology

spk_0 Probably 15 years ago one of my neighbors got a new BMW. We were driving up to the mountains

spk_0 To go snowboarding and he was changing lanes really nearly without looking else like oh my god, dude like what are you doing?

spk_0 He's like oh now the car will tell me like if there's a car there. I was like

spk_0 Hopefully but

spk_0 What I think it's like the sensors are dusty like I don't know like you get a lot of when you come back from the mountains every time your cars

spk_0 Pretty dusty like so I was having a hard time and like that's a good example of where you a lot of people assume this technology will make things safer

spk_0 Like it will if you

spk_0 Added on to what we're doing now. So if you look over your shoulders and add the technology to it

spk_0 It should lead to safety, but if we start replacing what we used to do right the safety question is not as simple

spk_0 So if you're relying on the technology entirely to change lanes

spk_0 Maybe it isn't safer. So the same like backup cameras and stuff like that like all that stuff we hope

spk_0 It's better. We just assume it's better, but it's not as easy. Right safety stuff is tricky. Yeah

spk_0 You're switching lanes you ideally have a technology that makes that safer, but like let's start maybe with making

spk_0 Shifting lanes a safe process, right and like whatever that is speed limits or you know

spk_0 Visual friction all that kind of stuff well even in a lot of parts of

spk_0 Denver you have these big arterials that have

spk_0 Probably more lanes than we need right? So if we have fewer lanes you don't need to switch lanes as much like

spk_0 It's the one thing I'm to do it on highways, but you know if we have more of a

spk_0 More of a network we have more than one option

spk_0 Because a lot of this part of Denver like you only have one option to get from a debate you have to go in that arterial

spk_0 And therefore we have to make those arterials really big with a lot of lanes is a lot of lane switching

spk_0 And that's where a lot of the safety problems come in if you have

spk_0 Another option you just move over one block and get from a to b

spk_0 It lets you build smaller streets where lane switching is on to the condition sure

spk_0 And Denver has that like Denver is is a place just like where I grew up like where if there's a crash if there's traffic on one street

spk_0 You just move over a block or two. Yeah, you can go in you never have to stop. Yeah, that's great

spk_0 You know we can we can wrap up soon the

spk_0 One thing I'm interested in and this comes up a lot is yeah

spk_0 Denver fire has a very specific

spk_0 You know they are maximalist when it comes to fire safety as they should be we want a fire department that is maximalist when it comes to fire safety

spk_0 They often run up against the street advocates safety advocates and

spk_0 Street designers and engineers. Yeah, we're trying to make a more safe street

spk_0 How

spk_0 Can those conversations be navigated and what advice would you give to somebody who

spk_0 Is in a situation where the fire department says actually we need the street to be wider because big traffic

spk_0 I mean big fire truck

spk_0 And this is a huge topic we could I mean this is actually topic I was gonna bring up the David to be my topic on one of the future podcasts

spk_0 Like yeah, too big but it's interesting because when we look at the data from Denver's fire department

spk_0 They respond to three times more car crashes than fires wow wow right so if you build streets that are safer that helps them out as well

spk_0 The other thing I'd say is that a lot of times you need to sort of treat what they think is good almost like a tactical urbanism project too

spk_0 Like I know when Denver is doing those does many roundabouts like the type of circles in the neighborhoods

spk_0 They got some complaints from some of the the fire

spk_0 Marshals or whatever but when tool I know tool design is the ones that did the first ones they literally brought out

spk_0 The fire truck and they drew the big circle on the ground and they tested it yeah and tool filmed them doing it

spk_0 And you know you put those

spk_0 And have the people the firefighters in a competitive situation like oh yeah, I can definitely do that yeah

spk_0 They did it and then later other people complaining. It's like no look you can do it you guys told us this was this was fine

spk_0 So I think you need to treat it like an experiment like let them see it and let them try it

spk_0 Um the last thing I'd say is we have plenty of neighborhoods in Denver that were built

spk_0 Like before traffic engineers existed that are technically too narrow from what they would want

spk_0 Whenever there's going to fire on those streets they got there. Yeah, yeah, right

spk_0 They don't have that problem on those streets

spk_0 But for some reason we can't build those same streets elsewhere. Yeah, so there's a disconnect there that I think we can do a better job of

spk_0 Of reconciling yeah great. Well last question. I'll wrap up here, which is you know

spk_0 Denver's made a number of I think advancements in the past few years and there's good conversation right now happening about street

spk_0 Seaf's yeah street safety

spk_0 And design

spk_0 What's something that you're seeing around the world that you're excited about

spk_0 If it could be brought to Denver

spk_0 That's a hard question because um

spk_0 You know a lot of people go to Europe and

spk_0 Say oh, we need to do this in Denver, but it does it's not that easy whenever I

spk_0 Never you talk to a US engineer say well, here's what co-p and taking doing here's what Amsterdam's doing

spk_0 Like their eyes glaze over like we can't possibly do that um

spk_0 And that's actually one of the reasons I took my sabbatical in Australia

spk_0 Because they're honestly doing a lot of similar things to those European countries, but for whatever reason American engineers

spk_0 Feel like they're more culturally similar to Australia

spk_0 You say oh, Sydney's doing this so like oh, yeah, we can do that. Yeah, they're just like us with silly voices

spk_0 Yeah, but it's just like like Denver makes for good example for other cities like if I tell you that boulders doing something are Portland

spk_0 Again, people's eyes glaze over, but if you say like Charlotte or Denver are doing things

spk_0 Then people listen like oh, they're Denver's doing it. We can do it. So I think we need to stand up as a better example of what we can do

spk_0 And you know, so there's no easy answers to that, but

spk_0 It's it's a it's not as simple as just taking like good prep best practices and just placing them here like it's a different different beast

spk_0 Awesome. Well, thanks so much. Yeah, really appreciate uh West Marshall go check out his podcast and thanks for coming on ours. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Yeah

Special Episode: Interview with Wes Marshall (Author: Killed by a Traffic Engineer)

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