Oops It's The End and Property updates

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 and I just don't want to end editing for me.

spk_0 But like, you know, but that's life.

spk_0 That's always that way.

spk_0

spk_0 No, see, you feel how I feel.

spk_0 It's like it just, it's a lot of work.

spk_0 It's a therapeutic work, but it's like work, you know?

spk_0 It's, it started to become not therapeutic.

spk_0 Yeah, it's tricky.

spk_0 It's tricky to walk the balance and like let it just be,

spk_0 I don't know, something.

spk_0 Yeah, well, I, I think,

spk_0 well, hello and welcome.

spk_0 You're probably wondering, I guess I don't know who we're just.

spk_0 No, it's a good spot. Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Hi, we are have been gone for a while because we've been busy.

spk_0 And frankly, we've been tired.

spk_0 This podcast has, has, we have put a lot of time.

spk_0 It's been almost like a second job for both of us.

spk_0 A real labor of love.

spk_0 But part of the reason that we haven't been around is because we just

spk_0 really needed a break.

spk_0 And the other reason is in some ways, we feel like we have told the story

spk_0 as best we can at this point.

spk_0 That being said, we do have a little bit of information to share with folks, right?

spk_0 Yeah, that being said, we are here now.

spk_0 And it's a, yeah, we've been kind of collecting a loose Google doc of updates

spk_0 since our properties episode.

spk_0 That's, it's a little bit of, it's got, it's got a, there's a little bit of

spk_0 information, you know, to share that's kind of like the evolution of,

spk_0 of what we, what we shared before on that, like, where's the money,

spk_0 property stuff. Yeah.

spk_0 And we want to do that.

spk_0 But we've also just been like very lazy, lazy is not the right word.

spk_0 No, we're not.

spk_0 Yeah, not proactive with, with the podcast right now,

spk_0 partly because like when we were, you know, like, you know, we had more time

spk_0 before to do it.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 This takes a lot of effort and energy to like prep and do it.

spk_0 And so I think what we kind, and then there's a lot of other layers as to like,

spk_0 why we haven't.

spk_0 Yeah, done more stuff that we will visit.

spk_0 At the end of the podcast, I think what we decided kind of between charity and

spk_0 myself that we're like solidifying right now on the air is.

spk_0 Welcome to our process.

spk_0 Yeah, go to our process is that like we're not 100% sure if we want to

spk_0 continue doing the podcast and why we would want to continue.

spk_0 And what we would do if we did continue.

spk_0 And we're kind of thinking that towards the end of this podcast,

spk_0 we're going to work it out a little bit like just talk it, talk it out.

spk_0 So if you don't want to hear that, then just don't.

spk_0 And that'll be great.

spk_0 And just fuck off.

spk_0

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I mean, no.

spk_0 I think that's what we're encouraging our listeners to do is to just stop

spk_0 the podcast at like 30 minutes in.

spk_0 Should be should be great.

spk_0 So before that, though, keep listening because we've got updates on some living

spk_0 words stuff, some Gary Hargrave stuff and beyond.

spk_0 But if you want to stay tuned until the end, we'll get back to what we're

spk_0 planning to do with the podcast, at least for now.

spk_0 We're rolling.

spk_0 We're just kicking this off.

spk_0 What is this podcast about charity?

spk_0 John Robert Stevens, the living word, the law, Hargrave family

spk_0 ministries, expand out into like things that matter.

spk_0 Let's get it out.

spk_0 Let's get the story told.

spk_0 You're going to watch us two former cult members try to de-demify themselves by

spk_0 doing a podcast about the cult that they were involved in their entire life.

spk_0 Thought it was a church or not.

spk_0 It wasn't called.

spk_0 Oh, there's a good.

spk_0 That's it.

spk_0 Oops.

spk_0 I'm going to call.

spk_0 So where are we starting charity?

spk_0 What's our first property update since we last heard from the end of 2024?

spk_0 What did we hear since then?

spk_0 So a former member after hearing that episode called me and was like,

spk_0 Hey, one of what's going on in Honolulu.

spk_0 I mean, this was wild to me.

spk_0 So apparently, can we say what the Honolulu thing is just going to catch people up?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0

spk_0 So the Honolulu church property is a church facility that is an oceanfront property.

spk_0 That is, it was, it was assessed at $10 million, which means the real market value is much higher.

spk_0 But it's just been sitting there vacant since the crash and burn of the Levy word fellowship.

spk_0 Or so we thought or so we thought it's still being run by the two,

spk_0 the couple that were pastoring it when the collapse happened.

spk_0 And now they're using it for to host marriage counseling workshops

spk_0 with an organization called Kekioca Ina family learning centers.

spk_0 And it's a healthy marriage is workshop.

spk_0 That's hilarious.

spk_0 And there's a now it's funny because when we got this information,

spk_0 we immediately hopped on the internet and rummaged through the website.

spk_0 And there were photos of these leaders, the Levy word leaders,

spk_0 the former pastors, the former pastors on the website,

spk_0 like going through marriage counseling and like all of this stuff.

spk_0 And recently we went back to an in preparation for this podcast and those photos are gone.

spk_0 And however, yeah, the picture of that couple is gone.

spk_0 But the other yes, all the photos of the workshop,

spk_0 you will, if you have been to this property, you recognize every room that is, you know, featured.

spk_0 We don't know if they're getting paid, you know,

spk_0 to host these workshops there because this is a second organization,

spk_0 a separate organization, but like come on.

spk_0 It was just a little bit one the irony of these people hosting a healthy marriage workshop.

spk_0 Like if you know them, you'd be like, okay.

spk_0 Actually, I mean, I don't know if they were the host,

spk_0 but they were facilitating and they were a part of it.

spk_0 So maybe they were just attendees.

spk_0 I should say that.

spk_0 And if that's the case, go for you.

spk_0 But I hope to hell you weren't hosting it.

spk_0 Well, they kept their mouth shut the entire time.

spk_0 That's the hope.

spk_0 But if people, you know, they say people never change,

spk_0 then it's very unlikely that their mouths were shut during that.

spk_0 Yeah. So anyway, so it's like they're definitely like the property,

spk_0 like if you just focus on the property, like it is being used for these things.

spk_0 And we're hesitant to say this a little bit,

spk_0 but we kind of got that there were rumors that it was being used to

spk_0 for location for movies and commercials.

spk_0 Which pays really well if that is the case.

spk_0 So they are still putting that property to use.

spk_0 But there's obviously no congregation.

spk_0 It doesn't seem like they have church services.

spk_0 It's just still that same church organization

spk_0 with them still being the directors, CEOs,

spk_0 the leaders, whatever it is of the organization.

spk_0 They're using that property for, you know,

spk_0 at the very least, you know, to have their own,

spk_0 what do you call it, healthy marriage, counseling.

spk_0 I just like, it's upsetting.

spk_0 I feel like what could be done with that property and the money.

spk_0 And again, like, it just feels like they're benefiting off of the hard work of all the people

spk_0 that put manual labor and donations time all of it into that place.

spk_0 And now, what do any of those people get out of it?

spk_0 Yeah, it's the thing we say, you know, we've said again,

spk_0 like there's a lot more creative uses that could be,

spk_0 that could benefit former members as like,

spk_0 you know, just like a way of being like, oh, wow, this really was screwed up.

spk_0 Here's a property that we can sell for millions of dollars.

spk_0 And like put it towards, you know, good use.

spk_0 There's some other properties that are coming up, kind of like the Palmer Lake property,

spk_0 where it's like, it goes to the city.

spk_0 Some of that, we have some updates on that,

spk_0 from these other properties of like what people are doing with this stuff.

spk_0 But, you know, none of it has benefited any former members.

spk_0 It's like, cool, if it's at least going to the community, that's nice.

spk_0 But also, it's like, it still feels like a little bit of a betrayal.

spk_0 It's, I don't know.

spk_0 That's just my opinion.

spk_0 Maybe other people have a different read on it.

spk_0 It's better than it going to like Gary Hargrave, but...

spk_0 Yeah, I think it's, no matter what happens with the money and the property and the value

spk_0 and all of this stuff, it's just, if you really stand back and zoom out from it,

spk_0 it's just like, it's a bunch of former members over 70 years just hoard their money into a black hole.

spk_0 Money and volunteer labor.

spk_0 Yeah, just their lives.

spk_0 Yeah, that's all.

spk_0 And this is the monetary version of that.

spk_0 Speaking of money, I guess, the next thing is that there,

spk_0 and it might still be active to some degree,

spk_0 but there is a lawsuit over the property in Grants Pass, Grants Pass, organ

spk_0 and between, now, technically, this is a...

spk_0 This is some of the former members of the Grants Pass organ church

spk_0 and some of the other former members of the Grants Pass organ church.

spk_0 And generally, you can kind of assume, based off of our interpretation of the list

spk_0 and what we've heard from other people who are closely involved with this.

spk_0 Generally, you can assume this is Gary Hargrave Loyalists versus non-Gary Hargrave Loyalists

spk_0 fighting over the property and what ends up happening with it.

spk_0 I think where it stands right now is that the judge or the court or whoever has

spk_0 ruled mostly in favor of the non-Hargrave Loyalist group of former members, but it still might be

spk_0 active, and we're working to get more information on that, but it's kind of...

spk_0 We'd love to hear more. So, if you know somebody that's actually involved, that's able to talk.

spk_0 Well, we had like three different sources on this.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 None of which were entirely transparent,

spk_0 but some of the original Grants Pass people,

spk_0 a couple of whom are originally from the Los Angeles Church and moved up there,

spk_0 they want the property that I believe is the Board of Directors. They want to keep it for themselves

spk_0 to do their own thing allegedly that still follows J.R.S.'s teachings and is still a part of

spk_0 some Gary Hargrave nonsense.

spk_0 And then the other folks that want to give it to a local church community that is already in

spk_0 existence and thriving. The property is high maintenance requires a lot of money to upkeep,

spk_0 and the people, the Loyalists, as I call them, that are trying to keep it for themselves are old,

spk_0 and you know, it would make more sense to give it to the local church community.

spk_0 I think that's part of what the fight was over is that one group wanted to give it away to just

spk_0 just like a local another church or resolve it and kind of wash their hands of it.

spk_0 Like, we kind of heard with a lot of these other properties like Palmer Lake.

spk_0 Let's get ourselves off of it. And then the others were the Hargrave Loyalists that were like,

spk_0 now let's keep it a living word entity of some sort where we follow John our students' teachings

spk_0 or we listen to Gary's podcast or whatever. And there are millions of dollars involved with this

spk_0 property. In the property value of course. So those, I think those that lawsuit still kind of

spk_0 still kind of going. And again, just for clarification, the lawsuit itself is labeled as

spk_0 list of members who are the Loyalist versus Grant's Past Community Church, which is a

spk_0 board and entity that want to get rid of it and like hand it off to somebody else.

spk_0 And I would like to point out that one of the names, these names are public, you could probably

spk_0 find them on the lawsuit. One of the names of the people that are trying to keep the church for

spk_0 themselves is one of the men that was accused of praying on children. It was a known pedophile.

spk_0 I don't remember if we've talked about this before on the podcast, but that they're

spk_0 the pastor at the time of the collapse in Grant's past had knowingly

spk_0 allowed a known pedophile to be around children. Someone who had been like shipped from the LA

spk_0 church and the LA leadership said, hey, you know, this guy, he's had some problems in the past with

spk_0 this, like keep an eye on it. But come the fuck on. This is from the Caleb interview. Right,

spk_0 that we're kind of getting this. But yes, Caleb did mention it too. Yeah, Caleb mentioned it. Yeah.

spk_0 And I think just to kind of revisit that a little bit, the Grant's Past story kind of ends up

spk_0 being this place where it seems like they're sending people, like the place where they send people

spk_0 who like have had problems in the church before because I can think of a number of them. And actually,

spk_0 one was part of the reason that Shalom released her letters. Right? Yeah. It is named like first

spk_0 thing on there. And so it's kind of that area, you know, is like a place where you collect these

spk_0 sexual predators. And so now they're fighting, you know, and part of the reason that we say,

spk_0 we'll kind of get into this a little bit later, part of the reason that we say that like,

spk_0 they're Gary Hargrave loyalist is just because that's what we've heard from our sources.

spk_0 But then also you can see some of these people named in the lawsuits hanging out with Gary in

spk_0 recent photos that we'll get to a little bit later on our updates here. So it's, I think it's resolved

spk_0 more or less if it's not yet, it hopefully will be soon. But if there's updates on that in the future,

spk_0 we will absolutely share it on to Shalom. So when we aired our properties, where's the money

spk_0 episode? We had been told by the current director, which is listed publicly on, so it's Steve

spk_0 Rich and he's mentioned in this article, he had told us that some things were in the works and that

spk_0 a report would be forthcoming, which we just heard about this article from other former members.

spk_0 And actually, I think even a person from the community, the Colona community had sent it to me as well.

spk_0 A lot of our, a lot of our listeners sent this, a Colona, Colona, what is it? Their name of the

spk_0 newspaper is just called the news, right? Colona news. Colona news. Okay. Maybe it's just called the news.

spk_0 Yeah, maybe they're like, make more hip now. We're just the news. So there was an article published

spk_0 in the news. And maybe we can link to it in the show notes below. So Steve Rich attended the meeting

spk_0 and said representing Shiloh. And he was the name, yeah, he was the name on the documents. That's

spk_0 kind of what you're connecting from our last sentence. We didn't mention his name before, but he's the

spk_0 guy that was the last signature on the documents before Shiloh got dissolved. And yeah, he was still

spk_0 listed as the director as we covered in our property episode. And in other times, we've talked about

spk_0 it, the Shiloh property, the former Shiloh property, which was very expansive outside of Colona,

spk_0 has been purchased by a developer and then turned into a, you know, property development where

spk_0 selling houses like it's going to be a little, a little neighborhood called Southtown. And it's,

spk_0 it's also going to include parks and trails and all of these things. And so some of it was annexed

spk_0 by the city of Colona and its Colona's responsibility to turn certain sections into trails and parks,

spk_0 etc. So from that, this is, this is what's being quoted. So at the Colona City Council meeting,

spk_0 um, that was held back in February. It was announced that Shiloh would be donating $1

spk_0 million for the development of the walking and biking trail between the Colona City Park and the

spk_0 Southtown recreation area, which Southtown is what was once the Shiloh property, the big facility.

spk_0 It is now a subdivision. Steve Rich attended the meeting, represented,

spk_0 representing Shiloh. So the funds were given to the city by the Shiloh committee.

spk_0 Um, and he is quoted as saying there was a lot of support from the congregation and from the city.

spk_0 And that was something that stuck in our minds that people really wanted. And I think it's an

spk_0 asset for the community, for the schools, for business. So my question was, what congregation?

spk_0 There was a lot of support from the congregation. I didn't realize there was still a congregation.

spk_0 And also, okay, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to this person who I believe to be a good

spk_0 hearted person. But that does give me pause. Again, it's like, I want to know who.

spk_0 Yeah, that line, a lot of support from the congregation. You know, maybe we're reading into it.

spk_0 Maybe it's just something that he said. But the reason we're reading into it is because if you

spk_0 look back at the last episode that we talked about where Shiloh and all the property and where it went,

spk_0 and who went where and who was on the board and all the money, there was a lot of money involved in

spk_0 that. It's some of it split off into all these different organizations. Some are now active,

spk_0 some like when in the hands of these people and these people and these people.

spk_0 What we could tell Shiloh, one, there's no building. Shiloh's gone. Like there is no Shiloh anymore.

spk_0 It's just a piece of paper. And Steve Rich was on the paper as like the person, the director of

spk_0 Shiloh. And we noted that there was this little bit of paperwork kind of like shuffling that happened.

spk_0 And then new church was created. English River Chapel. English River Chapel. And from our understanding,

spk_0 most people who used to be a part of Shiloh moved over to English River Chapel and they still

spk_0 follow the teachings of the living word. But paperwork wise and money wise, it felt like those

spk_0 were two different entities. And it didn't seem like those people that were a part of that entity

spk_0 would have any sway over what happened to Shiloh and the Shiloh money. So this line of saying

spk_0 there's a lot of support from the congregation is interesting because it makes it seem like

spk_0 it's possible that the English River Chapel people are involved in the decision of like giving

spk_0 the money over to which whatever, I don't know. And maybe that's not even true. But it's just

spk_0 from our understanding, it didn't seem like there was a Shiloh congregation at all. Like technically

spk_0 no Shiloh congregation. Maybe there's still a board. I mean, I guess that would have made more

spk_0 sense if he said the board. They also donated. Yeah, it's just and I don't know. I'm not saying

spk_0 anything like no fairies was going on. I we really just don't know. They also donated

spk_0 Shiloh donated $25,000 to the food pantry, $60,000 for the student built home project. And then

spk_0 endowment was set up with the Mid-Prayer Foundation. Mid-Prayer is the local school district that will

spk_0 go towards trade scholarships in honor of a gentleman who was the city's late building inspector.

spk_0 It's all wonderful things. I'm glad they're doing things for the community, especially the community

spk_0 of Colona because like, they had to put up with this weird cult shit all those years. But

spk_0 it again, and this is like no shade on Steve or whoever was involved. Anyone who was involved,

spk_0 like I get that they probably just want to be done with it. And the idea of I would want to

spk_0 just be done with it. But my the other perspective that I have is like, it just makes me sad. Again,

spk_0 like I said in the in the former episode, the properties episode is like none of these places,

spk_0 like none of them like thought to or wanted to even create a fund that could probably be run by

spk_0 like a couple people that could come out of the money would to pay the salaries for a couple

spk_0 of people just to like give grants for to former members for mental health care. Like I don't know.

spk_0 Maybe I'm numbing it down too much. Maybe it is not that at all that simple. But it does.

spk_0 Well, what it what it underscores to me, just like even just a zoomed out room like

spk_0 observation of it is just how not not only the the explosion and you know,

spk_0 breaking a part of the fellowship and all of that stuff it like represents that so much of like

spk_0 look at everything that was just like abandoned like monetarily like people left behind,

spk_0 buildings left behind assets, all of this stuff, just kind of like this big mess. But

spk_0 also just the inability for the community to be a community. Like the living word was supposed to

spk_0 be a fellowship. It was supposed to be Christian church of everybody kind of being together and

spk_0 like taking care of one another. But like it was never that. And this is more evidence of that.

spk_0 The the mission always trumped the people. And that is evidenced here because they cannot come up with

spk_0 a no one could. I mean, look at like Palmer Lake. Like we we've broken that story down so much.

spk_0 And it feels like a copy paste everywhere because no one could agree on what would be good for

spk_0 the fellowship. Like there's not just the simple thing of like people were hurt, real like hands-off.

spk_0 Like there's all this money and asset like just write a check to each person, you know, or like do

spk_0 mental or do this thing that's good. No one could agree on anything anywhere because no one could

spk_0 trust in anybody. No one thought that the other person had a good idea. Everybody thought that like

spk_0 no we have to stick to John. No we got to stick to Gary. No we got to stick to each other. No we got

spk_0 to run away from each other. No we got to do this. We got to it. It just like is such a mess that

spk_0 you know I like charity said like you get it like when you're attached to these dogs and

spk_0 I want to want that responsibility. Right. In some ways I would not want that responsibility at all.

spk_0 Especially I know there are a lot of people like well we just want to move on. We want to put

spk_0 this all behind us. Yeah we all do. And that's a different process for everybody. I think that

spk_0 it just would have been nice to see it seems like a lot of effort went into what was going to happen

spk_0 with these funds in all these locations. And I would love to know from anyone that was involved

spk_0 in these processes. They probably don't listen anyway because they probably don't like us. But

spk_0 I would love to know from any of them like was there discussion on could we do something good for

spk_0 former members who were so abused with this money. Would it have taken more effort to do that

spk_0 versus what they ended up doing? Question mark question marks. Yeah. I will I will also add that like

spk_0 you see here at Shiloh Palmer Lake. Stand do stand in contrast to a little bit to a Hawaii and

spk_0 the grants pass. Yeah. Look at Hawaii how like they were able to keep that beautiful property and

spk_0 now they're using it however they want to use it. There's nobody else. That's definitely worth.

spk_0 Yeah. That's the only one. And then in grants past you have a community of people who are trying

spk_0 to do something similar where it's like let's get this property into the hands of somebody else who

spk_0 can maybe do good with it. And then you have a group of people who are like no mind, mind,

spk_0 mind, mind, give it to me, give it to me. We're going to keep following Gary or whatever.

spk_0 And like sorry that like voice was

spk_0 edited. But like, so there are some there are some like contrast in that I think a little bit in

spk_0 that they're just interesting to note. And so as much as we might sound like we're complaining

spk_0 about like Shiloh or whatever we're not it's just an added commentary and curiosity.

spk_0 It's just a perspective from two former members who grew up in the shit and we're not the only ones.

spk_0 We have talked to many people in our two generations who feel the same way.

spk_0 And again, there's a lot we don't know. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. We don't

spk_0 how these people feel about what they're doing or the responsibility that they were

spk_0 burdened with. So I'm not I'm trying to withhold judgment.

spk_0 Which I don't often do. But it's bursting at the seams.

spk_0 Listen, I'm no professional journalist. I'm an amateur journalist and I've got opinions.

spk_0 I'm a walking op-ed you guys.

spk_0 Anyways, I'd love to know like our listeners thoughts on that.

spk_0 That is what it is. Shout out in the comments guys.

spk_0 Drop a saline in the comments.

spk_0 What's up? Ask on Twitter.

spk_0 Yeah, don't don't at me unless you nasty.

spk_0 Well, you saw that on a billboard somewhere.

spk_0 Yeah, years ago.

spk_0 That's hilarious.

spk_0 Okay, we got some updates on some dudes.

spk_0 We do want to hear some updates on some dudes here.

spk_0 Oh, it's like Gary and Celia's having a barrow fest down in Brazil.

spk_0 Losers and also another dude who's not involved in the barrow fest.

spk_0 Not not invited to the barrow fest tomorrow if you're standard.

spk_0 You know, you're an ex- you're an exceptional douche.

spk_0 If two douches don't even want anything to do with you, like.

spk_0 Oh, man, that's rough.

spk_0 We're talking of course about the one and only Rick Holbrook,

spk_0 tricky to keep.

spk_0 Who is now active again on Instagram.

spk_0 Hey, oh, and it's the Rick Holbrook official.

spk_0 Just in case you got confused with all those

spk_0 in post Rick Holbrook and posters on social media.

spk_0 Rick Holbrook, official guys.

spk_0 Oh my god, I can't even like, you know,

spk_0 it's just, I think you just have too much, I have too much.

spk_0 Oh, but did I ever?

spk_0 I'm blocked.

spk_0 Like I'm blocked, but he doesn't know how to block me as well as Gary Hargrave is good at blocking.

spk_0 Because Gary Hargrave like blocked me.

spk_0 Rick isn't as good at it.

spk_0 So I'm able to get around it.

spk_0 Mm-hmm.

spk_0 But tell us about what is to do with it.

spk_0 Did you do a deep dive into his feet and now you're like,

spk_0 of course I did.

spk_0 Of course I did.

spk_0 Deeply damaged.

spk_0 Like I am damaged.

spk_0 I mean, I am damaged to have chosen to do the deep dive.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 That's already shows how damaged I am.

spk_0 Massacus.

spk_0 It's what you, it's kind of like what you'd expect from a dude his age that has

spk_0 Instagram.

spk_0 There's like random shots of flowers.

spk_0 You know what I, one thing that I took away from it before I totally trash everything.

spk_0 One thing I took away from it.

spk_0 And maybe you don't want to hear this because he's

spk_0 awful, an awful person.

spk_0 There's no, just, you know, there's no apology on there by the way.

spk_0 There's no like, guys, I've learned my lesson.

spk_0 Like look at me.

spk_0 No, it's just like nothing happened.

spk_0 And here I am.

spk_0 No shame.

spk_0

spk_0 He is from various social media.

spk_0 Not just his Instagram but like YouTube and stuff.

spk_0 He's, you know, looking for work.

spk_0 It looks like.

spk_0 Posting like.

spk_0 In the music business.

spk_0 Yeah, in the music business.

spk_0 Like posting like his like.

spk_0 Well, Scott, he's never had to have a real job before.

spk_0 This is hard.

spk_0 Yeah, well, it's not gonna get easier.

spk_0 It's, you know, it's like he's doing stuff out there.

spk_0 But like his Instagram page is like just like, I would almost like it if it weren't him.

spk_0 Because it's, it's, it's like one thing that stood out to me is he did a series of

spk_0 miniature documentaries on them paving the streets outside of his house.

spk_0 That sounds like living material.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 It's just iPhone, you know, he films the construction crew like paving the streets and like

spk_0 interviews like the construction workers.

spk_0 This is like.

spk_0 It's just and then there's like transitions and text.

spk_0 There's like flower, you know, and coffee videos.

spk_0 So it's like, it's nothing, it's nothing that's like and then like bad selfies.

spk_0 And I just see one.

spk_0 I didn't, I barely looked and then I was like, I can't, I can't.

spk_0 Him playing the piano in a studio making a really weird case.

spk_0 That was super triggering.

spk_0 So I was like, I can't look at this anymore.

spk_0 It's, it's like there's a, it's.

spk_0 God, I just, I really don't like being mean.

spk_0 But he's the person that you should be mean to.

spk_0 Like anything like he's a person, but it's so pathetic, you guys.

spk_0 It's so pathetic.

spk_0 But see, I was having this conversation.

spk_0 I don't want to be mean, but like the man is an awful person.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So yeah.

spk_0 But that's the thing that I feel like I talked to with and we'll bring this up at the end of the

spk_0 podcast.

spk_0 There's another podcast coming out that you guys are going to love with two lovely humans.

spk_0 And I was talking with them last week.

spk_0 And it was that thing we all suffer from the syndrome of

spk_0 but I do love, I did love these people.

spk_0 I did care about these people deeply and somewhere inside me underneath all that anger

spk_0 and resentment and you know, knowing that they're not good people, there is still

spk_0 love that exists there for the person that they maybe are underneath all of that or could be.

spk_0 They could have been.

spk_0 And so I think it sounds like to me that exists in you as well.

spk_0 If you can look at that and have compassion for the fact that he's like a fucking loser now.

spk_0 I mean, when he's not a good person, this like the inner conflict, I'm going to have to talk to my therapist.

spk_0 Did you just get out of a therapy session?

spk_0 I'm not really sure if therapy this morning, but yeah, this will be for next week.

spk_0 But I think it's similar to how you can feel towards a parent who is abusive is like,

spk_0 you still love them in some way, even if you hate them, you know?

spk_0 Yeah, I don't know if I would go so far to say that I ever loved Rick, but like empathy

spk_0 exists and like understanding of like, that's a better way to say it.

spk_0 That's a better way to say it.

spk_0 You know, and what they became by avoiding their injury and avoiding dealing with it.

spk_0 And the pain that they caused the world because they didn't deal with their own shit,

spk_0 you know, and you just see like a person that would be fine, interesting in fact.

spk_0 And like successful and good things if they had just like been honest with themselves,

spk_0 if they had been compassionate, if they had just had an opportunity to not be raised by like a

spk_0 psychomom, you know?

spk_0 Mm-hmm.

spk_0 Just all of this stuff, like there's layers of like humanity in this that like,

spk_0 the long and short of it is, is like fuck Rick Hobrick, but like,

spk_0 you know, you don't want to dig too much into it because you don't want to have compassion for

spk_0 somebody that like never stopped for one second to have compassion for anybody else.

spk_0 No, absolutely not.

spk_0 And I think that it's having the fact that many of us members were compassionate people,

spk_0 was how an empathetic people were, that was how leadership was able to manipulate us so easily.

spk_0 Narcissist love, love, empaths.

spk_0 Yeah, that's true.

spk_0 So speaking of Narcissist, we got more for you.

spk_0 Yes, we got more for you.

spk_0 So Gary Hargrave.

spk_0 That's right.

spk_0 I wanted to, I want to start the part two Gary Hargrave with how we started this whole podcast

spk_0 in our first episode. We talked about this video of Gary visiting Celis, his counterpart in Brazil

spk_0 in Brazil. Celis was the pastor in Brazil for many years and Gary's like right hand man when it

spk_0 came to Portuguese and all of this stuff. And our first episode we like talked briefly about

spk_0 their trip there and how Gary, you know, they're visiting a buddy that has a church down there,

spk_0 which we'll talk about briefly in a second. And that guy goes, well, you know, you Gary and

spk_0 Celis, you are the true survivors.

spk_0 I'm sorry, he said the truly survivors.

spk_0 Yes, his English wasn't great.

spk_0 He said truly survivors.

spk_0 Well, he, he prefaces that by saying that the living word fellowship in the US has come under

spk_0 great persecution. I'm like, bitch, this isn't worth no persecution. This was like they

spk_0 fucked. They don't fucked up.

spk_0 But I love the spin, right? It's like a PR spin.

spk_0 Exactly. He's like they, they were, you were attacked. And he says like me too, which is what

spk_0 one is. Like me to yes.

spk_0 Like me. He says like me. I was also persecuted.

spk_0 And that's because, you know, from, I don't, you know, maybe we have to cut this. I don't know.

spk_0 But he says he was persecuted for reasons that there are rumors out there and we haven't

spk_0 tracked down a source.

spk_0 I believe it's well known that it that in that he, this pastor, that he's just had an affair

spk_0 with his secretary. Don't know her age. And then was, you know, his wife forgave him and they

spk_0 moved John. But eventually, but he was persecuted.

spk_0 Oh, these poor pastors and their persecution just for a little sexual and

spk_0 propriety.

spk_0 I mean, God, I mean, have you met Christianity?

spk_0 Well, so that clip, which I'm just going to go ahead and say, let's play now. This is from 2023

spk_0 because we've never played it on the podcast.

spk_0 It's on our Instagram, but yeah, we've never put on the podcast before.

spk_0 Oh, is this the moment where you're putting it in there?

spk_0 I think great.

spk_0 I would like this moment to pray about you, your family, your religion, and the truly survivors

spk_0 of the living world, truly, truly,

spk_0 so far.

spk_0 The

spk_0 living world suffered retaliation

spk_0 the world's spiritual

spk_0 and the spirit world.

spk_0 Other pastors and churches as well.

spk_0 But we

spk_0 buscar the unity of the body of Christ.

spk_0 Amen.

spk_0

spk_0 in all over the world.

spk_0 Here is in the US.

spk_0 In there, we have many brothers who are in the same battle with us.

spk_0 I want to know who is in the end of the war.

spk_0 And I question who wants to fight?

spk_0 I can't count on this war.

spk_0 I don't want to be a common church.

spk_0 We don't want to be a normal church.

spk_0 But we know it being swarmed.

spk_0 That's the clip from 2023.

spk_0 Well, Gary's back in Brazil and he went and visited the same church with his buddy,

spk_0 Celiz, and they brought a little sermon.

spk_0 And there's just some new information.

spk_0 They haven't said anything about being truly survivors this time.

spk_0 But there were a couple interesting things from the video that we were able to gather.

spk_0 This was on YouTube.

spk_0 Just this last week, right?

spk_0 Yeah, very so like in March, I think, is when they were there.

spk_0 I don't know if every March.

spk_0 So first, Celiz announced that he has a church in Iqa'i.

spk_0 Would I say that right?

spk_0 You did.

spk_0 Good job.

spk_0 Yeah, which is just outside of or in the Nitoroi area.

spk_0 It's in the Nitoroi area.

spk_0 Just outside of, yeah, just outside of Rio in Brazil.

spk_0 And they didn't go into much detail about it.

spk_0 But that was, you know, he just said he started a new church.

spk_0 They made that announcement from the thing.

spk_0 They were also accompanied by another pastor.

spk_0 They call the pastor from San Diego, who has a church in San Diego.

spk_0 His name is Bruce Larson.

spk_0 And he was a former member or a current, I don't know, whatever member of the living word.

spk_0 And he's definitely buddy buddy with Gary.

spk_0

spk_0 And we will talk about a little bit more about that.

spk_0 But I thought it was really curious.

spk_0 This one line that they said during the service.

spk_0 He goes, he says the pastor from San Diego is having a hard time getting the youth to show up.

spk_0 Yeah, no shit.

spk_0 We're on to you.

spk_0 They like prophesied to have more youth show up.

spk_0 They're like, we bless you to get the youth.

spk_0 And I was just like, oh man, you guys are so wrecked in that department.

spk_0 Well, there's this statistics are showing that like attendance to in religion is on a severe decline.

spk_0 And it has been for a while.

spk_0 But it's like, well, guess why the fuck that is?

spk_0 Because it's so abusive and exclusionary.

spk_0 And like, what happened?

spk_0 What hypocrisy?

spk_0 So much hypocrisy.

spk_0 And so I feel like the...

spk_0 And just on top of that, it's like religion.

spk_0 Like you got like just religion in general.

spk_0 No one's into like, you get a Christianity.

spk_0 And then like the living word like, what person is going to a living word church if freaking the losers?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So that's like that was kind of the updates from from their journey.

spk_0 Are you going to play a little bit of that too?

spk_0 Yeah, we can't.

spk_0 I mean, it's like it's just those things that I said.

spk_0 So I don't know if like they're as interesting to hear.

spk_0 But maybe I could just play it.

spk_0 Or funsies.

spk_0 Flip of it.

spk_0 Bruce, come here, please.

spk_0 He told me about the difficulty to invite young people.

spk_0 In her church, in his church.

spk_0 I believe we have the city of multiplication of the children.

spk_0 The city of multiplying young people.

spk_0 And I believe that it forms over the natural.

spk_0 And a supernatural way.

spk_0 Not just Bruce.

spk_0 But the whole ministry.

spk_0 Pastor Gary Hargway.

spk_0 Now what I do.

spk_0 I love this guy.

spk_0 And sing.

spk_0 It just was so so barf-tastic to like see those two together, everybody.

spk_0 It really a nerve to me.

spk_0 Because it was more of that like, wow, no remorse.

spk_0 No remorse.

spk_0 Because somebody with like a conscience.

spk_0 Would probably think like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be in the

spk_0 occupation of pastorship after I fucked up so hard.

spk_0 But no, the arrogance is like.

spk_0 Or maybe it's all just a scam.

spk_0 Because neither of them have any other life skills.

spk_0 Oh, that's definitely, I think that definitely weighs into stuff.

spk_0 Like what are you going to do after a lifetime of like being a con religious leader?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Which.

spk_0 Shined religion, you know?

spk_0 Gary.

spk_0 And you like.

spk_0 Gary's website would indicate as much since he's selling Chinese.

spk_0 So we just wanted to we never really did like a holistic dive into

spk_0 hardgrave ministries, which is the.

spk_0 Which is the thing that Gary stepped into.

spk_0 So we've kind of mentioned it like offshoots.

spk_0 We kind of throw it out here and there and blah, blah, blah.

spk_0 He said at the end of 2018 in his.

spk_0 What was that?

spk_0 Apology letter, whatever after Shalom's Shalom's letters were released.

spk_0 That he was going to resign from his position in the living word and simply retire or

spk_0 find other means of or pursue other endeavors or some.

spk_0 Yeah, I have livelihood or whatever.

spk_0 And so he immediately found and I think you remember you made this joke early on and I

spk_0 popped some head all the time where like it used to be hardgrave family ministries and he dropped

spk_0 the family and shared it like just me now guys.

spk_0 Hardgrave family ministries got renamed to hardgrave ministries and now he's just took out

spk_0 the family is like just me now.

spk_0 Just me now.

spk_0 Just me.

spk_0 Just me Gary.

spk_0 So it's hardgrave ministries and he's got this like slick that website.

spk_0 He has a podcast.

spk_0 I check the podcast from time to time and he so kindly releases like a transcripts.

spk_0 I don't have to listen to it.

spk_0 I can just like.

spk_0 Oh, scan through it.

spk_0 Generally Gary's vibe is like Gary from the living word

spk_0 as the biblical scholar like he maxed out his biblical scholar like points and then pulled back

spk_0 on charisma which was already low.

spk_0 You know just all the stuff just pulled all the other letters that he just went like.

spk_0 Christmas is like it all time low.

spk_0 And I want to say to like I'm not a biblical scholar.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 Oh really?

spk_0 To dissect oh really.

spk_0 To dissect stuff but like I will just say for the sake of anybody that like still loves the

spk_0 Bible like 100% Gary is like pseudo scholar just making up stuff just kind of like what he did

spk_0 his entire time and like he uses these.

spk_0 He like he he was doing this towards the end of his time at the living word.

spk_0 He like switched Jesus' name to more accurate Yeshua.

spk_0 Which is like I get I think it's more like that's the

spk_0 Greek pronunciation.

spk_0 God I don't even know.

spk_0 It's sound like that aromatic.

spk_0 Yeah one of them it's close it's supposed to be closer to or maybe it's more the Hebrew one

spk_0 but it's supposed to be closer to like what they would have said at the time.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 I think aromatic.

spk_0 I want to say.

spk_0 Sure.

spk_0 Just slay me in the comments.

spk_0 I'll you tell you a little scholars.

spk_0 Bitch shut your mouth.

spk_0 That's what biblical scholars would say.

spk_0 They're bitch shut your mouth.

spk_0 Of course.

spk_0 So his website only in every charity can we go on to his website and just kind of like

spk_0 give a little bit of an overview of like our favorite parts.

spk_0 The podcast I want to finish a little bit on the podcast.

spk_0 It's a lot of that stuff.

spk_0 He still uses the phrase like we should.

spk_0 A lot like we should be hope praying for this or we should be doing for that.

spk_0 And sometimes he kind of means Christianity in general.

spk_0 Sometimes he means his listeners.

spk_0 That phrasing is definitely very like I am a leader.

spk_0 You follow me kind of.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Which I don't think he even realizes is like a thing that you know there's a bad.

spk_0 I don't know it doesn't matter.

spk_0 It's like a nuanced thing but I notice it because it's very much like I'm in charge and we should.

spk_0 We should we should do this.

spk_0 We should do that.

spk_0 We should be praying for this.

spk_0 We should be hoping for that.

spk_0 We need to in order to get God's love we should.

spk_0 Bob.

spk_0 In order to get God's love you should unlock access to many more Gary's teachings.

spk_0 That's right.

spk_0 Become a subscriber.

spk_0 So he's got you can.

spk_0 So that's what does he have as his like he's got what is he called friend of Gary hard?

spk_0 It's followers partnership is free.

spk_0 You get access to resources within the website.

spk_0 A monthly email as well as a 10% discount at the Hardgate Ministry store.

spk_0 So you want to know what's in the Hardgate Ministry store.

spk_0 There's like four things in the hardgate.

spk_0 You can get it's basically like Chachkes you could buy on a trip to Jerusalem.

spk_0 It's what it looks like.

spk_0 You can get a show far horn.

spk_0 Some holy anointing oil and like a scripture in Hebrew or something like that.

spk_0 Let me go back on here just so I'm.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Well, the currently as at the time of recording the show for our horn is sold out guys.

spk_0 Oh, shit.

spk_0 But if you are interested in other items anointing oil from Jerusalem an ornament

spk_0 from Jerusalem or the Lord's prayer in Hebrew you can also get one of Gary's shitty books

spk_0 of which there are four.

spk_0 And the the Lord's prayer in Hebrew is literally a piece of paper that they will

spk_0 send you in the mail for $10.

spk_0 I would like you could get on Etsy and get that for like $5.

spk_0 You could print that you could literally just like open the photo and hit print and you could.

spk_0 I mean, I feel like this is I mean, now that he doesn't have like supplements and herbs to sell

spk_0 to people through Maryland farms it's just like, oh, we got to find some other

spk_0 marketing game or some other like, you know, I like the word Chachkes.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Then there's the partnerships the followers partnership like you mentioned friends partnership

spk_0 fellow fellow workers partnerships.

spk_0 So the the partnerships is like a paid thing when I click on it, unlock access to more of Gary's

spk_0 teachings.

spk_0 Yeah, the one of the things that they talk about about the ministries like at the heart of

spk_0 the Hargrave ministries is a passion for leading people into spiritual maturity.

spk_0 So that spiritual maturity stuff here a lot through his things.

spk_0 Um, the partnership we've also heard in the past, although I don't see anything on the website

spk_0 about it specifically, uh, that you can't already know actually you might let me look at this

spk_0 really quick.

spk_0 Oh, you know, you get the zoom meetings with him with the top tier or $25 monthly minimum donation.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 You get regular zoom meetings with Gary and the fellow workers group.

spk_0 Sounds good like a great time.

spk_0 Cool.

spk_0 Very cool.

spk_0 Become a partner.

spk_0 Yeah, $25 minimum monthly donation.

spk_0 So you can definitely go more if you're really enjoying those those zoom meetings.

spk_0 Um, the there's also studies on here where you can download a lot of his,

spk_0 a lot of his like stock photo books that he created with like these like,

spk_0 you know, man, he has been pumping out the books.

spk_0 I got to say that's like, I can imagine.

spk_0 Oh, like writing.

spk_0 All of us.

spk_0 So many.

spk_0 There's so many here like half play tries to do anything like his predecessor.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And they might be like, yeah, I don't even know.

spk_0 They could be, we have no idea what, what's in them.

spk_0 So I couldn't say, but Jesus, look at that.

spk_0 Look at that.

spk_0 So much.

spk_0 You can get a $10 monthly membership or a $25 minimum monthly membership.

spk_0 And then, yeah.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 You can also sign up for those of you that are excited to do this for a, um,

spk_0 tour.

spk_0 Oh, right.

spk_0 Israel.

spk_0 Not a great time to travel to those parts.

spk_0 But well, he would argue it's a very good time because what he has on the,

spk_0 he has these, um, Israel projects on his website, which we may have mentioned before.

spk_0 And it lists off a lot of organizations that are real organizations, um, in Israel.

spk_0 And we're not going to name any of them except for one because,

spk_0 you know, I don't know, I don't know like what their awareness is of like,

spk_0 Gary and the involvements.

spk_0 We don't want to like try and further connect them to somebody who's like a former cult leader or

spk_0 current cult leader.

spk_0 But there is one that would be familiar to former living word members.

spk_0 That's listed on here.

spk_0 Sorry.

spk_0 There is one that would be familiar to former living word members that's listed on here.

spk_0 Um, called the AMI Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research.

spk_0 This was a place that a lot of living word members visited, uh,

spk_0 when they would do trips to Israel in like the 90s and 2000s.

spk_0 And there was like a partnership for a long time with the leader of that.

spk_0 Since that Shlomo passed away.

spk_0 And now on the board, um, sits, uh, uh, Bruce Larson, a,

spk_0 former living word leader at the same pastor from San Diego that was mentioned in the video,

spk_0 um, from Brazil.

spk_0 So he sits on there and he works closely, obviously with Gary, but also running that place.

spk_0 And these projects are involved in the tours, according to the tour that Gary went on in 2024.

spk_0 In June, called the Israel Solidarity Mission.

spk_0 And they, uh, they did a little blog post of that tour where they stopped at a lot of these

spk_0 projects that he calls them, which are nonprofits in Israel.

spk_0 And they like volunteered for the day.

spk_0 So they like, you know, handed out food to, um, IDF soldiers or they, um,

spk_0 they did, uh, I feel like pizza was involved or sandwiches maybe probably sandwiches.

spk_0 And, and I read through the whole thing and it's just very like, um,

spk_0 very just like stopped by like very like I googled a lot of these things and like there's

spk_0 photos with them in, in the leadership and of those, of those organizations.

spk_0 Some of them are like really impressive, like EMT volunteers that go out and like, you know,

spk_0 when they're enduring this like active war, whatever, like people that are injured by like,

spk_0 bombs or missiles or whatever's going on. And they like are like an EMT organization that just

spk_0 goes out and like helps people. There's food, um, rescue, pantry stuff, um, children's funds.

spk_0 A lot of them are legitimate. And they, I think when Gary says that they're like projects, it's

spk_0 that he, and he said this before on his podcast, they donate to these, um, organizations.

spk_0 Now, obviously not verified with actual like bank records, but they did show up to these

spk_0 organizations and like volunteer on the trip. And, um, I'm not going to speculate on any of like,

spk_0 the stuff because there's like photos of them being there. The bummer is that I bet a lot of

spk_0 these places and I'm, you know, giving them the benefit of the doubt here that they don't know

spk_0 that Gary is a cold leader. Yeah. A verified lawsuit, you know, backed up cold leader. Also, um,

spk_0 I don't see this on his website anymore. Oh, maybe I do on the donate button. Um, he used to have

spk_0 where he would say donate to me. And then I give that to this organization, which we trashed

spk_0 that I think on a previous episode. That is not there anymore. It was shady. I don't see it.

spk_0 Still, it's still, it, no, it's still there in the sense that, um, so he, donate to, yeah, it's not

spk_0 like, like it used to be when we mentioned it before, it used to be a straight up like next to each

spk_0 project. Um, and let's actually double check this. Like if we go to this one, there's a read more.

spk_0 Yeah. Next to each project, it used to be donate. Yeah. So it felt like you're donating to that

spk_0 project. But what it did is it just would took you to like PayPal. And then the PayPal thing said

spk_0 it was sending it to San Diego. Okay. Now it's now it's just one donate button on the project page.

spk_0 And it says from these resources, Harvard Ministry sends consistent support every month to each of

spk_0 each of these eight Israel projects with which we partner. And then you click donate now. But my

spk_0 question is like, why does it need to be funneled through Gary and that he could be donating like a

spk_0 dollar to each and still be like, you know, not lying that he'd give support every month, but it

spk_0 could be a fucking dollar. Like, I don't you think that's sus. I mean, it's definitely, yeah, it's

spk_0 definitely like a great way of saying like, you know, support me. And I also support these people.

spk_0 And I won't tell you how much I won't tell you when I won't tell you like any of that stuff.

spk_0 It just says every month that he does consistently send money. That's what he says on the website.

spk_0 There's of course no filings or anything that's going to back that up. But you could on each of

spk_0 these things, if you wanted people to donate to one of these listed things, you could just link to

spk_0 their website where there'd be like donate. That would make more sense. But, you know, in fact,

spk_0 I wonder if we could like do that really quick. Let me just go to one of these websites. Boom.

spk_0 Oh, wow. Paypal check out his good. Yeah, it's right there. So you could easily just link to

spk_0 their website. And then they have, you know, say, click here to donate to this place. If you wanted

spk_0 to do that, but that's not the point of this of his website. It is about donating too Gary. And

spk_0 then we just trust that he does something good with it. And he's not a trustworthy guy. So I

spk_0 take pause. I think we've established that on previous episodes. I want to I want to circle back

spk_0 to that that tour part of the reason that we want to mention the blog post and the tour is because

spk_0 people that win on that tour are people that are a part of the lawsuit in grants pass grants pass

spk_0 there. The plaintiffs there. The ones suing the grants pass to try and get control over that

spk_0 property. And so that's part of the reason that we say these are Gary Hargrave loyalists that are

spk_0 suing for that property. Because you see him right there pictured named in the lawsuit pictured

spk_0 on Gary's blog on his tour. And like, by the way, like most people picture, I think it's actually

spk_0 100% of the people on the tour, right? Charity are in this photo are former living word members.

spk_0 I have. I'm looking at it right now. He's got nobody else just a bunch of just a bunch of

spk_0 former living word members. Most of whom were from Los Angeles and San Diego. What do you think they

spk_0 tell themselves about all of all of us that came forward exactly what they say we've cut the dead

spk_0 weight. We're the remnant and we're this close. We're this close guys. We almost made it. You know,

spk_0 we started this thing with John Robert Stevens in the 1970s. There's only 50 of us left,

spk_0 but my God, we're going to be the only ones that make it. Yeah. Yeah. They're all dying one by one,

spk_0 like every other person on the planet. Okay. The move. Sorry. The move. Yeah, we just are going to

spk_0 mention this like kind of quickly for now. Because yeah, it's of interest. Yeah, we maybe we'll follow

spk_0 up on this with these two people that reached out to us separately. That grew up in a movement,

spk_0 another cult called the move. And they have told us that it was an offshoot of the walk aka the

spk_0 living word fellowship. John Robert Stevens followers who it was a John Robert Stevens follower

spk_0 who split from J.R.S. and went to start his own. Why don't all cult start with something?

spk_0 Well, they're not they're not particularly creative. The move, the walk. Let's not call it the walk.

spk_0 Let's call it the skip the jump. What do we call the center? The model. Now, what do we call it?

spk_0 That's our new cult guys. That's our new cult. The water. But the move, it's really interesting because

spk_0 this individual who who emailed us about the move said that that there's a connection. He wanted

spk_0 to share information with us about the connection between John Robert Stevens and a group that he

spk_0 grew up in called white stone that still exists in Alaska. And then he linked to a couple of

spk_0 writings that another former member had shared from a book by Judy Kleinfield, which is about the

spk_0 group that separated from the walk. Call the move. Yeah. The move. The move. And then he says until

spk_0 your podcast, most of the former members had no idea how much of the walk had stayed with the

spk_0 group after they left and became part of Sam Fife's move of God. Your episodes are now circulating

spk_0 among former members of white stone. And I'm starting to see some of them following your page.

spk_0 From what I am told, Nancy Porter, who is quoted in the attached paper of Judy's book, was a

spk_0 secretary of John Robert Stevens and was a catalyst for the split since she had knowledge of what was

spk_0 happening in California. Oh, interesting. Much of that is hearsay since I was not, it's not for

spk_0 stand information, but it is the recollection of the people who were a part of the group when

spk_0 the split happened. I want to add a little bit of a fair one. I think I'm right about this, although

spk_0 I'm not thinking of a way to like super duper verify it right now. At the beginning of 2019,

spk_0 a former leader from San Diego of the living word who was kicked out in like 2012 or 2013.

spk_0 I mean, you know, talking about. He went to Alaska and spoke with I believe it was with this group. Yeah.

spk_0 Yeah. And remember it was being talked about that like, oh, old tall guy.

spk_0 What can we always say old tall tall guy, Bill Sap.

spk_0 Old tall guy, Bill Sap. Yeah, that's right.

spk_0 Whatever, everyone knows who we're talking about. He's like the loudest guy in every

spk_0 sanctuary.

spk_0 The tallest and loudest, most lanky armed man in the longest serons known to man, besides my

spk_0 hash, but like whatever. Yeah, that he kind of started his own little group up there.

spk_0 It was, I think he was trying to or connecting with them in some way. Okay, real quick before we

spk_0 continue, there's a, since you're going to miss us so much, fear not. There was another

spk_0 cult podcast coming your way. So this is Leandra, Alex and Anastasia Johnson, two former members who

spk_0 are a lovely, wonderful, hilarious, beautiful humans. And they have started a podcast about their

spk_0 cult recovery. They were both born and raised in the cult as well. And it is called Happy to

spk_0 Disappoint and they're lovely. They're dropping. I think it's May 1st. They're dropping their first

spk_0 episode on all the podcast platforms. So, and you can also follow their Instagram at Disappoint

spk_0 Cast and a coming up episode is Features Charity. I was their first interview and I'm a little

spk_0 nervous about it because I have shared a lot on this podcast, but I feel like I just forgot that

spk_0 I was being recorded and we were just having a real good conversation. I spill a lot of personal

spk_0 tea and I've got a little bit of a vulnerability hangover and I might ask them to cut some stuff.

spk_0 Don't do it. Don't do it. Let them let them have it.

spk_0 But it's, they're so adorable and hilarious and I think that, yeah, they're,

spk_0 they're going to be a really fun to list too. I cannot wait. That is, that is all the updates.

spk_0 That is, that those are the, those are the updates and it's, we've been very sloppy because we're

spk_0 out of practice. Yeah, it was just kind of our running, our running list of, of stuff that we

spk_0 are gathering as over the last few months. And like, you know, none of it really like solidified

spk_0 in like a, you know, moment, which is fine. I think it's, it's kind of, we're kind of picking up

spk_0 some of the scraps here and I'm sure there will be more things coming in the future and we will

spk_0 definitely talk about that as we get more information and if there's anything more here and you're

spk_0 listening to this, you better be in those comments or shooting us an email at oops, I'm in the colt

spk_0 at gmail.com with the deets. Thank you so much. Here's where you're going to want to just get off

spk_0 the podcast. Please stay and listen. And I think what are we, what are we doing? What's, what's

spk_0 this part of charity? What's listen, I mean, the bottom line is I think that we've put a lot of

spk_0 of time and money and energy and heart into this podcast and it's been tremendously rewarding in

spk_0 that it's been for us to speak for myself and then you can speak for yourself. But to use my

spk_0 voice in this way has been so healing and so empowering and truly like though what has been

spk_0 the most rewarding is hearing from so many former members about how much it has helped them. And

spk_0 that was the primary reason. What was the reason that I got involved in this in the first place?

spk_0 And I am very thankful and proud of the fact that it has had an impact. It's also been

spk_0 taxing in a lot of ways to reopen all of this stuff. I understand that for me it was necessary

spk_0 to revisit a lot of these things and these memories, these woundings in order to facilitate

spk_0 a deeper healing for myself and in helping others do that. Like that has helped me, you know.

spk_0 So, um, but that being said, I think for me, I just have started to feel like I don't have it in

spk_0 me anymore to do it. And I, not forever, I think we've told a lot of the story as best we can tell

spk_0 it and we're kind of almost come to an impasse there. Granted, there are people, always more people

spk_0 that we can interview and we may do that and we'll pop in from time to time when we get more

spk_0 information. But as far as like regular episodes, you know, you will be seeing less from us.

spk_0 We've canceled everybody's subscription so you're not putting money into to something that's not,

spk_0 you know, we're not providing regular content. But yeah, I just, I think that for me, it felt like

spk_0 it was time to move on. And um, that's kind of hard too. Like,

spk_0 I didn't think I was going to get emotional, but I always do. So, there's a shocker.

spk_0 Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't expecting that speech exactly from you.

spk_0 No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I was expecting. I mean, we've talked about this.

spk_0 Yeah, I wasn't, that wasn't planning on saying all that. So in such a detail, um, because I know

spk_0 we, we want to leave it open and did. It's not like we're by forever.

spk_0 Yeah, it's kind of been a, it's kind of been a back and forth. I mean, we have like a list,

spk_0 a long list of ignored emails and messages and, uh, you know, kind of a cue of people that we've,

spk_0 we've been floating to like interview and topics and things like that. And it's like, um,

spk_0 you know, for me doing this has been very, very helpful in a lot of ways just because I got into,

spk_0 um, digging into like what this thing was just on, on my own because of this documentary that I keep promising.

spk_0 And, um, this has been a way of learning more without, and having an outlet to like,

spk_0 share stuff instead of just collecting and letting it just like sit. And, um,

spk_0 um, and I love, I really like, I really like doing it. Even though it's like, there are things that are just like hard.

spk_0 I like doing it and I like doing it with you charity. I don't want to do it on my own. Um,

spk_0 and, uh, and so I'm, I think I'm in, you know, a similar place. It also, it just, it does take a lot of time.

spk_0 And like, there's, you know, it's just like, it takes a way more time than just like the hour and a half.

spk_0 It takes to recall. Oh my god. Yeah. And, um, and we put, we've like really put a lot like we traveled all over

spk_0 the place. This thing like, we both like traveled back and forth across the country because it's easier to work

spk_0 together. We've gone, you know, all sorts of places and done things and have had lots of conversations

spk_0 that we've never been able to publish. There's some stuff we haven't been able to share yet because

spk_0 it's too risky for the people that shared it. Mm-hmm. And we're just like sitting on a ton of stuff and

spk_0 hopefully someday we'll be able to share it in some way or, or another. Um, but yeah, I think we've,

spk_0 you and I have had like this conversation a lot over the past few months and, and frankly,

spk_0 the entire time we've done this has constantly been like, well, that's it. We're done. Like, I'm out of

spk_0 here. Like, I don't want to deal with this anymore. Yeah. Um, and we kind of come back for whatever reason.

spk_0 But this time is a little bit different. And, um, I think we don't want to say like, you know, goodbye

spk_0 and we're done and like, this is it. Uh, but I think there's a little bit to, I mean, can we talk

spk_0 a little bit about just to kind of take up air time and since no one's ever going to hear from us again?

spk_0 Bye forever. It's bye for now. Yeah. I mean, like, what has been for you some of the frustrations in

spk_0 like doing this? Well, like when you first approached me, like, what was that two years, two and a

spk_0 half years ago now and asked me for those videos, my half of the videos between me and Shalom, um,

spk_0 at that time, I was like, I didn't want anything to do with anybody that was in the cold,

spk_0 except for the people that I was still close with, which were very few. And I didn't even want to

spk_0 see people's names. And then when I think about it, I want to just fucking move on. Like, I've heard

spk_0 from so many people, even people who trash us for doing this, like, why don't you just move on? You

spk_0 losers, like, but the truth is I wasn't really moving on. I still like had a lot of stuff pushed

spk_0 down and buried. And, um, so I was reluctant at first. And then I discovered that when you asked

spk_0 me to do that interview and I did it and I had several former members reach out to me and just say

spk_0 how much it helped them out, which it meant to them. And I was like, maybe I could do something,

spk_0 like, to help if this little thing helped somebody, like, I don't know, like, what could I do? And

spk_0 that's why I came to you and I'm like, I just want to help. Like, if you're doing the documentary,

spk_0 anything I can do to facilitate, like, helping former members to heal because I was watching all of

spk_0 us, like, suffer in some way or another, one way or another and feel that there was no justice.

spk_0 Like, we never got to say we had the Facebook posts and then nothing, right?

spk_0 Um, and so for me, it's been like I said, it's been empowering. It has been both painful

spk_0 and rewarding. Um, it's been really hard to hear people say things like,

spk_0 like, why don't you just move on? Like, why are you bringing all this up? You know, um, people

spk_0 attacking our character at times, very few, very few. Like, we've had the ones that do it, it

spk_0 stings. It stings. Yeah. It, and it feel, especially when it's from former members, it cuts deeper.

spk_0 I don't know. It's just, and again, that's been very few. Um, it's been an overwhelmingly

spk_0 positive response. And I've heard from people even in the Colona community where I grew up that

spk_0 they're like, well, we love this podcast. It's so like cool to finally like for them to be validated

spk_0 in their experience. But again, all that being said, it does take a toll to like, be listening

spk_0 to fucking Gary's voice all the time or just researching this stuff or talking to people about

spk_0 their horrible experiences and just to like, witness that and and be there like as a support

spk_0 and a platform. And that has like, what a gift to be able to be a platform for people that never

spk_0 had a voice to have a voice finally and to sell their truth. But yeah, again, like, it takes a toll

spk_0 to hold that space for everybody while processing my own stuff. So it's been both healing, but also like,

spk_0 yeah, I have that feeling too sometimes. I'm like, I just want to leave this part of my life

spk_0 behind me. And I probably never will be able to. But for now, I just like need to take a beat.

spk_0 How about you? Tell me. You know what's funny?

spk_0 Um, well, when I, so this, you know, I don't go too far back. There's something I told you.

spk_0 Early before we started the podcast officially, I think I told, I don't know, somewhere in there,

spk_0 is that I was doing this. I had released a couple videos online. And I had like, um,

spk_0 I, I had like, siphoned stuff from my business to like, make that work. I had some of my team

spk_0 working with me, which I really miss that little team. Yeah. Every time we released a video, we like,

spk_0 went and got drinks. But like, even that they were all none of them were former members. And, uh,

spk_0 in doing that whole thing, I just, I felt very alone, um, in everything that I was doing with it.

spk_0 I felt very exposed and alone. And like, I didn't know what I was up to. And something about

spk_0 when you and I started working on it, we weren't even working on it. We like, I, like, we, I'd come out and

spk_0 interviewed your mom and then we were talking about it a lot. And like, I was still planning on

spk_0 interviewing other people and releasing other videos and just kind of doing it on my own, um, and going

spk_0 that direction. But then we talked a lot and, you know, very close in all of that. And like, that,

spk_0 you know, is part of why I wouldn't want to continue. It's just because I can only do this with you.

spk_0 I mean, it was a minute of halt is like ours, for sure. Um, I definitely, I'm going to continue doing

spk_0 work on the living word stuff. I don't want it. I really want it to be done. And, but I want it to be

spk_0 done. The documentary is like the documentary. And that's a whole thing which I will love to

spk_0 like talk about at some other point. But like, um, the this has been like super healing for me

spk_0 because I, I don't have to bang around in a room by myself, which is what I was doing. Even just on

spk_0 my own, even with other people's help, like that, you just got it. That was a thing about like,

spk_0 our interview. It was like, I, when we were first, I was like, she gets it. She knows what's up.

spk_0 Actually, before our interview, I was watching your videos, you and Shalala. I was like, I was like,

spk_0 charity knows what's up. She just says the right things at the right time. And like, no, like,

spk_0 gets it just has a perspective. That's just like so clear. And you're able to say it so clearly.

spk_0 And so, you know, for me now, I mean, doing this whole thing has been like stressful and fun. And

spk_0 I think some of the stress is like self-created. But the, the revisiting it for me has always been a net

spk_0 benefit. It's, it's opening the box and like sorting everything and putting it into a place and

spk_0 being able to be like, this is bad. This is bad. And I know why it's bad. This is a mystery. And

spk_0 this stuff is whatever. And so like, or good or any of that. And you just kind of get to untangle the

spk_0 yarn because the yarn is like, I mean, that's like what therapy is done in general for like a lot of

spk_0 stuff. But like, even this is just the like, it's such a huge, intricate mess. And it's very easy to

spk_0 just be like, the living word is bad. So everything that touches the living word just shove it into the

spk_0 closet and never talk about it again. But if you do that, that's your whole life. Everything goes

spk_0 with it because the living like, especially you're born into it and raised into it. Even if you just

spk_0 spent 60 years in the thing and you voluntarily joined all those years, you're, that's your life.

spk_0 You can't just shove it all away because that's everything. It's like this person that you knew that

spk_0 even had nothing to do with, you know, that kind of thing. So for me, it's been, it's been, and I've

spk_0 said this since the beginning, like it's just so nice to be able to like, listen to John Robert

spk_0 Stevens rant and hear him say the thing I heard that he said and be able to put it into like some sort

spk_0 of place. And so doing this and then having you to do it with is made it possible. That is

spk_0 otherwise it would have just, you know, it would have been nothing. And like, so I don't want, you

spk_0 know, I definitely don't want to continue if like, there's nothing, there's no reason. I don't

spk_0 want to continue for continuing sake. It's a ton of work. It's like all of this. But I, and we've

spk_0 talked about this too, where like, you know, like when you tune into your favorite show seasons 1 through

spk_0 three are just like stellar. And then season four, you're like, wait, why are they continuing

spk_0 the show? Yeah, it's like, the guy die at the end of the last one. And like, we're forcing it. And

spk_0 yeah, we don't want to be like, like a half-assed season four. It's a great show. It'd be like,

spk_0 we had a good run y'all. And like, yeah, it's, it's all that. And so that's like, I think a lot of it

spk_0 is like, there's also just like the whole world is wild, you know? Oh my god, yeah. Just a wild world.

spk_0 And yeah, go ahead. That's a big part of it. And we've talked about this that like part of the

spk_0 reason I think the podcast has started to feel like too much is because of what's going on in our

spk_0 country. I feel like I am just in another cult. And I'm seeing the same patterns with Trump

spk_0 followers as I saw with, you know, um, diehard loyal, you know, living word followers where

spk_0 the leaders could do no wrong. There was no questioning. It was and it would just seem so glaringly

spk_0 obviously like, wait, what? Like, you think that's okay? It's so triggering. I can't even describe. And

spk_0 they don't like hearing this from us when we say, when we make, when we draw those parallels.

spk_0 And I beg you to take a deep look inside. If that's how you feel, I beg you to take a harder look

spk_0 because you are still in a cult. You are not deep programmed. You're shaking your head. You're like,

spk_0 you hate when I do this. It's not, it's not even, yeah, let go, go ahead.

spk_0 But it's, it's classic, right? If you escape one cult, but you don't really do the work to

spk_0 dismantle all of that programming and that way of thinking and being and doing, you will end up

spk_0 in another cult. And Trump has made it really easy for everybody who had those propensities anyway

spk_0 to fall into that trap. I mean, it's, you know, it's huge. So it's like, there's not, you know, I

spk_0 kind of go back and forth of like, is this a little bit like being in the cult, even though you

spk_0 don't want to be, you know, being in America, like you're in it, like there's no escape, you know.

spk_0 But I, I think, you know, like on that note, we talked about this. I mean, maybe we don't want to

spk_0 like go on forever with this. But there was a, there was a, that we, you and I were having that

spk_0 conversation about like when, was we've heard it from other people too, when they left the living

spk_0 word, you know, the living word was active. Let's say they left, you know, in the 90s or the

spk_0 left in the 2000s or something and like, or the 80s, whatever. It's still very active. They chose

spk_0 to live a lot of times. They lost their friends. They lost their connections. And now they're out on

spk_0 their own. And they're having to suddenly, we've heard other people talk about this, like going to

spk_0 the grocery store and like, what do I eat? I don't even know what to eat because I was always told

spk_0 what to do and all of this. And that led a lot of people into other high control situations

spk_0 to find other people who narcissistic personalities. A lot of times relationships was the thing

spk_0 that was like, that was the next cult that you fell into. And it takes going through that and

spk_0 then coming out the other side being like, what the heck? How did I do that again? How did I end

spk_0 up there again? And it's like, that makes it's on a sense because why would you choose anything

spk_0 else other than what you're familiar with? It's biology too. Like your brain seeks out what's

spk_0 familiar. Even if it's bad for you, your brain wants to stay comfortable. It wants to follow the

spk_0 same routines, the same patterns, even if they're toxic. So it's a matter of like making yourself

spk_0 deeply uncomfortable in order to break those patterns to even see them, you know, is the first thing.

spk_0 It is the first thing and it is very hard, you know, to know, I mean, like what's bad,

spk_0 what's good, what's the truth, what's not the truth when you're brainwashed.

spk_0 Like how is that possible to determine reality? A lot of times people say like, well, you can tell,

spk_0 you trust your heart and your gut and stuff. And 100% that is a part of it. But like,

spk_0 for me, that was one of the early questions that I asked myself when I found myself in those

spk_0 situations where I was like, I don't know what reality is. Like, am I good in my bad? Is this right?

spk_0 Is this wrong? How can I determine that? Yes, my heart tells me this. But like, I spent my whole

spk_0 life being told that like my heart was telling me to, you know, follow the living word or like,

spk_0 chasing after it's like, it's like, I've been deceived before. How can I trust myself?

spk_0 I know, I know, I know, I know, I'm not deceived now. And for me, that choice, I fell in love with

spk_0 the scientific method. I'm not just understanding that like, I'm not a scientist. I don't do it as a

spk_0 profession by any means. But just the logic of that stuff of like following things through to like,

spk_0 okay, well, if this statement is true, then there will be something verifiable. It's even like what

spk_0 we use on this podcast, you know, we're not like crazy strict about it or whatever. We have like

spk_0 tons of opinions injected into stuff, but we always end up falling back to, okay, this is the claim.

spk_0 Here's like, where are we getting that from? Like, what's the like time? The clearest example of it

spk_0 is obviously the plagiarism thing. It's like that tracing back until you hit bedrock. And that

spk_0 has always been the way that like something else outside of me that I can look at as somebody and

spk_0 say, can you see this too? Yeah. But that's what's so crazy making about the climate that we're in now

spk_0 is it's like people are living in two different realities where I get especially triggered is like

spk_0 there's so Trump has so many Christian followers. And I'm like, what? Like,

spk_0 what Christian values say like, fuck immigrants, get rid of them all. We don't, you know,

spk_0 only straight cisgendered people are accepted by God. And we're not going to give, we're not

spk_0 going to help the poorest of the poor. You're taking away your social security, just fuck social

spk_0 programs, like fuck the environment. Like, it's just all the proof is in the pudding. Like,

spk_0 he's causing more harm and suffering than he is doing good for people. He's like rejecting

spk_0 the people that deserve the most like charity and giving. Isn't that Christianity?

spk_0 So this is where the disconnect is for me with people that Christians that think that he's

spk_0 the bee's knees. I'm just like, just look at the way he talks to people. He's a deeply unkind

spk_0 person. Never mind that he's a misogynist and a narcissist and a sociopath.

spk_0 So I'm not like, no, sick him, but like, yeah, no, but I mean, I get what you're saying because to like,

spk_0 you know, a lot of our this podcast talks about Gary and Rick and John and like their behavior,

spk_0 especially look at like Rick and like, we went through the lawsuits and we went through all of

spk_0 the stuff we've heard, the accusations about John and we've heard firsthand experiences about

spk_0 John Robert Stevens and these things that he's done and the stuff that Rick did and all the like

spk_0 marriages that he had and the like, women who had experiences, shalums letters, all of this stuff

spk_0 that like clearly almost everybody listens to our podcast, even people that still follow Gary

spk_0 are just all on board. Rick was a sexual predator, right? And that's like clear from the lawsuits,

spk_0 that's like all of our opinions from like what we've seen, that's what we've heard from all

spk_0 the witnesses. And he pales in comparison to the proven sexual assault that Trump has and his

spk_0 not to like any shade on like the living word lawsuits, but like, Jerry proven against Trump

spk_0 of like sexual assault and those kind of things, but that's okay. And it it always, it's like to me,

spk_0 it's like, I've always seen that thing where it's like, it doesn't matter like you forgive those

spk_0 things, even though he's never asked for forgiveness, never apologized, never done anything like that.

spk_0 Never changed his behavior. Because what you get in return is the greatness of America.

spk_0 That's the promise at least. And so we we turn a blind eye to every single terrible thing, no matter,

spk_0 no matter what, no matter what it is, no matter how much evidence is behind it, no matter how

spk_0 like the establishments and every single person, it's like audio tape, video like tape.

spk_0 Yeah, so much. Everything you could possibly ever ask for, it doesn't matter though, even if it is

spk_0 true, it doesn't matter because we're going to get that great promise. Yeah, the

spk_0 promise and their empty promises. It is the exact same thing we experienced in the call.

spk_0 It's the way it feels. That's why I think we're so like upset by it is because not just as

spk_0 former members who like felt it and saw it and need it, but also just like the podcast itself

spk_0 is like the journey of discovery of that where it's like, oh, look, oh, this thing that we found

spk_0 in like the court record or like look at this like person that we interviewed who like said this,

spk_0 look at this audio tape that we have, look. And for some people that has been the thing that pushed

spk_0 them over the edge of like where they were on the fence like, is Jaros good or bad? And they've

spk_0 come and said like, now I'm convinced he's he was a charlatan. But it does seem like with

spk_0 insurmountable proof that Trump is just horrible and the people that his cohort horrible. Like,

spk_0 it's like no amount of proof is good enough. And I was also thinking about how the Fox News thing

spk_0 like, or this, when you just, I should just say, when you only look at one source of information

spk_0 or just a couple, you really limit your intake of information, like say, for example, if you only

spk_0 watch Fox News and that's where you're getting your information, which by the way they admitted in

spk_0 the lawsuit that they're not real news that they're entertainment. So they've done worse in the

spk_0 lawsuits. But yeah. Yes. But so it's like what John Stevens would say, don't drink from too many

spk_0 fountains. You could get contaminated. And why is that because control? If he can keep you from

spk_0 getting too much information that could possibly show shed light on his lies or other ways of thinking,

spk_0 he doesn't have control of you anymore. And I see that with a lot of the Trump followers,

spk_0 is there just getting the information from a very limited source?

spk_0 Let's buy design. Yeah. They're all, I mean, I'm not going to like both sides of this right now,

spk_0 but like I'm going to a little bit because that's by design of the whole, the whole thing. And it's

spk_0 not like a conspiracy or whatever. I'm not like trying to like go down that like some puppet masters

spk_0 out there. But like that's happening on every, in every, and this is why this is so important.

spk_0 Why we're even talking about it in this podcast is because it's like exactly the same of the experience.

spk_0 And it is like, I feel the brainwashing. I can feel it. Now that I know what brainwashing is,

spk_0 like growing up in it was, I was brainwashed. Coming out of it, I didn't understand what brainwashing

spk_0 was. I was like, I wasn't brainwashing. And now like learning all this stuff is like, oh, I know

spk_0 what brainwashing is. And now I can feel the brainwashing when I open my phone when I, my algorithm is

spk_0 right there. And like my algorithm is not pro Trump. Like so I'm being brainwashed by the other side.

spk_0 And I'm not like, again, not trying to like both sides of the situation, but like there is this

spk_0 box here and the TV box and the internet box and the broadcast box and the movie box and like

spk_0 all of it, the radio, all of those boxes are after the podcast box. They're after us. And it's

spk_0 you can really, you can feel it. Like you can feel it like as you're swiping up and you're just

spk_0 seeing opinion after opinion of just random person, random meme that just says these inflammatory

spk_0 things. And, and I can feel it happening where I'm like, I get upset. I get upset at this thing

spk_0 that's like, why is nobody? I've got to do something. And there's not really anything I can,

spk_0 I can like do alone. But as you're going through this, what I have found is the same thing that saved

spk_0 me before. It's slow down. And don't just take it because it's set it. Right. And that's so much work.

spk_0 Oh my God, that's so much work. And it is always like, you know, I think part of the part of the

spk_0 reason that we make progress with people from our podcast is because people trust us. I don't

spk_0 know why you guys trust us. But do they? I think that, you know, obviously there's people that

spk_0 just like we get comments every now and then that are just amazing. And I love them so much for

spk_0 their coochiness of like, God Robert Stevens. But, mostly the will I brand them stuff, those

spk_0 guys are down. One episode. Yeah. She still gets it. No, the that I think there's there's an

spk_0 inherent trust, which is frustrating to me because I don't want you to trust me. I don't want that

spk_0 to be the reason that somebody changes their mind because that's that's the same reason that you

spk_0 trust a charlatan. That's the same reason you get conned by something for your entire life is

spk_0 because John, Robert Stevens provided that trust. He provided that feeling of like, that's what

spk_0 you still hear people almost everybody that we've talked to. They had that like they admit that

spk_0 John, Robert Stevens gave you like a thing that you wanted to buy into. And I think it's natural

spk_0 for humans to make their decisions based off of how they feel about the person that is providing

spk_0 the information. And maybe that's a good thing. It's definitely faster than like everybody fact

spk_0 checking every single thing that's ever been said. But I think we all need a little bit of that

spk_0 scrutiny of just the like and it's it's tough because confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

spk_0 It is what all media, social media, even Google itself is based off of like, let me type in something

spk_0 and get the results I want as opposed to sure. But that goes back to my statement about drinking from

spk_0 other fountains. I think that it's just like when you go to college with the gen ed classes,

spk_0 the point of the gen ed classes is to make you a well-rounded person like to educate you into a

spk_0 well-rounded job is what it's supposed to. Apparently. That's why like, yes, I have the same thing in my

spk_0 algorithm on Instagram. It's most of like the say that how I feel about things is being confirmed to

spk_0 me. But I try to then also go off of that and look at different news outlets or I love BBC because I

spk_0 feel like, you know, it's not one of our privatized news outlets here. And you know, just looking at

spk_0 different sources, always asking myself, always asking myself, am I not seeing something here? Am I

spk_0 like falling victim to this other cult? The anti-trim cult, which I don't think is a cult, but because

spk_0 it doesn't demand total submission or whatever to everything that you know what I'm saying. I mean,

spk_0 it's a yeah, well, no, I would we were just talking before. You would think to different. Record

spk_0 remember I was ranting about the like language that was being used in this like elitist area.

spk_0 That's like watch your step everywhere you go. Don't say this. Make sure you use that. Make

spk_0 sure you're careful here. Make sure you don't the PC person. Oh, but then you step over there and

spk_0 you're hurting this person. Oh, for your somebody. You know, you should just die. How about that? Like,

spk_0 there's the thing about that is like, that's just annoying, but it's not threatening to people's

spk_0 lives and livelihoods. Like not necessarily unless you're a celebrity that gets canceled. Yeah,

spk_0 it's like, it's not life and death. Where is this stuff that's going on, you know, with the Trump

spk_0 administration is life and death for some people. And I don't understand the lack of empathy

spk_0 from so-called Christians who are okay with him shipping, you know, allegedly, illegal immigrants

spk_0 off to El Salvador never to be seen again. Like, it's just and I watch actual video footage of ice

spk_0 detaining people in this way in a horrific ways. And I'm just like, well,

spk_0 how is this isn't deep state like creating these videos? Is that what these people think? So

spk_0 anyway, I'm aware that I could be influenced by the opposite side in the same way, but I

spk_0 I actively tried to ensure that I am not I am not only looking at one side. I try to be open

spk_0 to the other side. What's one way that you? I've had conversations with Trump supporters who

spk_0 aren't total fucking whack jobs and who I like as humans. And I'm like, okay, I mean, I guess I can

spk_0 see your perspective from the end. I know these people to be very good people. And so I'm like,

spk_0 it's one thing to just be a little de Lulu and like maybe just you just I don't I still don't

spk_0 understand how they ignore all the bad stuff, but it's the ones that are like the him and about his

spk_0 like, oh, he's the he's the he's tits like and then get defensive when we say he's a cult leader. It's

spk_0 like that to me where you can't even have a conversation with someone they just want to talk at you.

spk_0 Then and some of it's funny like almost like they have a podcast where they just like

spk_0 Hey, listen, no one has to tune in like we warned you. No, most most Trump most most most most

spk_0 most all Trump supporters that I know I like like I like that. Oh really? Yeah, I don't think I

spk_0 know a Trump supporter that I don't like because I just wouldn't like that person. You know, like I am

spk_0 I I don't like you know him and I don't like and just like you like it's it's confusing.

spk_0 The the support and the conflict, but you know, I I often try and find like the even ground

spk_0 when when dealing with with anything, but I I think

spk_0 you know, we're not going to solve any problems here with this. There are everybody in the world

spk_0 working and fighting over this. But I think I think there's a lot to be said. I think there's

spk_0 a lot to understand, especially, you know, just in the world that we live in in the in the media

spk_0 that's out there that's the way that we consume stuff. The news, the the politicians,

spk_0 people that are in charge, the balance, just the whole everything in America is very

spk_0 extreme and um and trying to navigate it as former cult members who like especially you and I

spk_0 really taken a look at what the living word is like like really taking a look at it and like how

spk_0 they got to the places that they got and it's just very like um those that are that are that are

spk_0 hungry for power. Um they're just they're incredibly selfish and they're not they're never going to

spk_0 care about anybody else but themselves and those those circles always get tighter and that's

spk_0 what happened in the living word is they just they get tighter and tighter and tighter and the

spk_0 worst of them all are like at the inner most circle. Um and so I don't know if there's much we can do

spk_0 as like regular people to like solve that other than like support those that have access and like

spk_0 are doing something about it and like make our own brain capable of uh yeah of of staying grounded

spk_0 and connecting a reality and like our own lives and stuff. Well yeah I mean I think it's our

spk_0 our responsibility to not put our heads in the sand and be like I mean it's definitely

spk_0 warranted to take mental health breaks from staying up on what's going on you know in the news but

spk_0 I do think that just because it's not affecting me and my immediate life today it is affecting

spk_0 so many people humans who deserve like to be treated with with kindness and empathy and charity it's like

spk_0 um I I I just think yeah one stay informed to do what you can if it's like a pro in the form of a

spk_0 protest or just posting information and I'm not interested in like posting information so I can

spk_0 do 10 rounds with a Trump supporter and like do get out over Facebook which I have been known to

spk_0 but it seems to be a cute little effort. So that's what I hate doing I don't like to argue with uh

spk_0 you know that's like my I don't I'm not an expert in any of this stuff and like

spk_0 I have a hard time because I always feel like it's an impasse like this there's not like a lot of

spk_0 progress that's my feeling on it and maybe I'm just not an effective debater but like

spk_0 maybe and I try to not get into too much of a debate more more like these are the facts here's the

spk_0 information like this is actually what DEI was meant for it's not like hiring underqualified people

spk_0 in place of a qualified white person that's not what it is like just go read something and here it

spk_0 is I'll link it to it to make it easy for you like just stuff like that in hopes that who knows I

spk_0 don't know it's better than doing nothing I don't really have you heard about the the backfire effect

spk_0 yes we've talked about this before but say no well it's the it's the it's the effect that like

spk_0 I mean it's like studied it's like there's always like psychological things that are just like

spk_0 very interesting where like the backfire effect is essentially like the idea that when somebody

spk_0 when you challenge somebody is deeply held belief and you provide them with evidence like

spk_0 evidence like objective like proof that goes against their deep of health belief they will

spk_0 reject it and believe harder yes and they hold they hold deeper think flat earth you know people

spk_0 yeah and when especially when your identity is tangled with your belief absolutely you risk

spk_0 having an identity crisis and dying like an ego death by releasing this stuff and so it's

spk_0 a natural to hold on yeah that's the living work that's what yeah you know the I told you

spk_0 recently like a guy that I dated a million years ago who wasn't in the church like found me on

spk_0 Facebook recently like I've been listening to your podcast and like I think I told you you were

spk_0 in a cult and I was like I do not remember that like at all I wouldn't I wouldn't have been able

spk_0 to hear it I wouldn't have been able to and so it's it's a similar thing but I think that's why

spk_0 I'm so like ah about it now because on the other side of it I'm like I've done been there like I just

spk_0 I don't yeah yeah it's it's for me I mean we could talk this to death but like for me

spk_0 my my way of navigating this like I said before I probably don't trust myself more than I shouldn't

spk_0 trust myself you know I mean like it's probably too much like doubt in myself and but that's for my

spk_0 living in a world and like seeing things of certain like through my eyeballs doesn't mean that's

spk_0 reality correct I could I can be you know it's just a mushy brain like we're all kind of living our

spk_0 own delusion like everything from colors to sounds to just literally our our physical point of

spk_0 view when we're looking at stuff we read how we interpret our experiences all of it creates a world

spk_0 that only exists in our head and some of there might be overlap with other people and that's the idea

spk_0 like if you live in a community and a society and a family and like any kind of you're living with

spk_0 other humans you have to come to a shared reality America does not have a shared reality right now

spk_0 it is the hugest experience you know that I've seen I think it's something you know it's definitely

spk_0 happened in other countries throughout time and history and whatever but like we are living in a

spk_0 time where we have the internet is all the information it is all the information it is everything

spk_0 you could ever want and yet none of us not none of us but like a huge chunk of us are just not a

spk_0 green on what reality is and that you take two people and like I hate to say you know the two

spk_0 sides because I don't think there are two sides in America I think it's definitely like a spectrum

spk_0 of swirling mess but like you grab a couple people and they will they will both look at the same thing

spk_0 and be like yeah different and it could be extreme I mean we see it all the time the internet and

spk_0 stuff like the social media and this of it the giving a voice to everybody like every comment

spk_0 has the power to sway another person and like the platforms are so easy to create

spk_0 that like we have so much power to to just throw our voice into the screaming match that's out there

spk_0 and the person that says the craziest thing gets the most attention and all of that of course

spk_0 but like all of that gives you a real it makes it really hard to determine what reality is

spk_0 when this website says that he's a savior and this website says that he's a criminal

spk_0 yeah I mean how do you how do you as a normal person who's just trying to pay your bills and make

spk_0 it through the day make a decision and it's a we understand the like the the challenge of it

spk_0 is understandable I and I from myself what I do to navigate that is like you know there's a little

spk_0 bit of that like trusted person stuff but then there's also the thing of like well how much can

spk_0 I do to dig back down to like make a determination you know what I mean on on a particular topic

spk_0 or a particular thing like if this person said this did they say it or did they not say it did

spk_0 it get misquoted did do a little research happen or not happen you know like just that kind of

spk_0 just that basic stuff at the very least it doesn't like any one thing is not the thing where you're like

spk_0 oh well that's it you know but it's like it's doing you do do you do your do do your

spk_0 doing just grounding yeah and it's not just trusting like oh well I read the New York Times and now

spk_0 I'm gonna go read this other outlet that like has the opposite view because I think they're both

spk_0 just like screaming at me it's like where are they getting their information from that is all

spk_0 available on the internet, all of it's available. Just because a talking head says something in a video

spk_0 doesn't mean that's where we get our information from. They got their information from somewhere.

spk_0 Go find that. If it's important enough, and eventually learn who you can trust in those

spk_0 departments, you know, that's my that's my journey is like always. Well, I think you're basically

spk_0 just saying be a critical thinker. Be a critical thinker. Don't take anything at face value like find

spk_0 find the truth as best you can. No further than the person saying the thing. Then the exactly,

spk_0 which is what we didn't do in the cult. And notice when people around you are really suffering,

spk_0 if just because like I said before, just because it's not affecting your immediate life,

spk_0 maybe you don't have any immigrants in your life or you're not an immigrant or you're not,

spk_0 you know, whatever, like whoever he's targeting, maybe you're not a young woman who

spk_0 has an at risk pregnancy and can't get an abortion if you're about to die. And you don't know

spk_0 anyone like that. It's just like think beyond yourself. Think about your fellow humans and how

spk_0 this is affecting them. People who are worried about their social security getting taken away.

spk_0 Um, that billionaires are not paying taxes, but you got to pay taxes and you can barely afford

spk_0 your groceries. Like I think that true like Christian values, if you have those, you are always

spk_0 helping the most downtrodden. You are opening your doors to refugees who are fleeing war-torn

spk_0 countries or whatever. Like it is the antithesis of Christian, Christian values to say,

spk_0 fuck you to everyone who's not like me and doesn't believe what I believe.

spk_0 Yeah. We could do a whole episode on, um, if we want to or discussion or we're equating after

spk_0 this. So remember the, I know and how many people turned it off already. Yeah. I mean, hopefully,

spk_0 you know, just all of them. Uh, but that know the, the Christian, the Christian value thing is

spk_0 an interesting commentary because, um, what are you basing your Christian values on? Like if you

spk_0 look at Christianity in general or a lot of American Christians, really Western Christians,

spk_0 just Christians, I guess the, the sphere of belief, the, the most popular voices in Christianity,

spk_0 I guess is more the way I would say it because, you know, there's so many, most people are Christian.

spk_0 So it's like, you know, the values, not saying everybody shares it, but like the most,

spk_0 the prominent voices in Christianity. And this was how it was in the living word too. It wasn't about,

spk_0 and this is the thing that turns me off to Christianity in general for myself, is the values are

spk_0 authority based. So there, this is, this is something I see a lot where they're not,

spk_0 Jesus said the last should be first. He didn't say exactly that, but he said the meek will inherit

spk_0 the earth, the weak, um, in spirit or something like that. A lot of times that's, that's interpreted

spk_0 to mean the most important people are the least among us. But Christianity, the way that it behaves

spk_0 doesn't operate that way. It's, it's the very simple, your corner church doesn't, um,

spk_0 house any homeless people. They don't, uh, you know, they don't feed, the living word did this,

spk_0 the, we don't hand out food. But they do play to the regular congregants who come in and they

spk_0 crop up the people who donate the most. Mm-hmm. Um, on a larger scale, you see a lot of Christian,

spk_0 when they, when they speak about Jesus, when they speak about the living word, I don't, like,

spk_0 this, I know more than anything. And obviously looking words occult. So like, whatever. But like,

spk_0 the, it's about the word and the authority of God. It's about his mission and his will. They will be

spk_0 done on earth as it is in heaven. They will. Um, it's not about what his will is. It's that it's his.

spk_0 He's in charge. This man is the man. When the man comes around, he's going to judge you. It's the man.

spk_0 He's on top. So we just do what he wants because he's got the power. And that's it. Instead of saying,

spk_0 and again, this is for me, like, I just, what does the man want? Because if the man wants something,

spk_0 if God wants something, if Jesus wants something, that, that doesn't benefit the weakest people,

spk_0 if it's not helping, if I'm wrong about doing it, I should not follow him just because he's in charge.

spk_0 Even if eternal damnation is the, is the, is the response? Like if I say, sorry, no, I don't agree

spk_0 with you. And I go to hell, like, I'm still going to stand by my morals, even if it's God himself

spk_0 that says, right, you're wrong. Because if, if there's a person dying on the street, and God says,

spk_0 don't touch him, then God's wrong. You know what I mean? And I think most of what's in the new

spk_0 testament says to help the man on the street. But the way that Christians behave is they follow

spk_0 the power. Like the most popular Christian churches are these guys with multi-billion dollar homes

spk_0 or whatever, all of this money, all of this power flying on jets across the country. Yeah.

spk_0 And yet, they're flying on people who are barely make a righteous gemstone style. They're just

spk_0 barely surviving. And so that I think when we talk about Christian values, like, what does that?

spk_0 Yeah. And this is like by no means, you know, speaking to, we're generalizing right now.

spk_0 Because I know there are wonderful Christians who deeply care about helping other people. And who

spk_0 cannot stand this administration or like tired of Christians, you know, giving them a bad name by

spk_0 saying they're all of this in the name of Christianity. They're like, no, thanks.

spk_0 Right. That's what I mean. Like, that's why I was saying prominent voices in Christianity.

spk_0 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The most popular. They're making the biggest sweeps. And I know that that

spk_0 definitely doesn't represent every Christian. Like, in even if they listen to their radio shows or

spk_0 whatever, it's just, it's just when, when you see that, that's like a, I just, that's the way I see

spk_0 a lot of like these prominent Christian things. Living Word was definitely like that. It was,

spk_0 it's about the rules and it's about who's in charge. And it's not about the message, which like

spk_0 the message at the end of the day is like, help people, feed people. Like the be the good,

spk_0 like the good Samaritan was better than the most holy person, you know. And we don't see a push

spk_0 for that. We see this like top down, those with the power, those with the money, those that are like

spk_0 doing this like really cool stuff with like all the things there. And like cutting, you know,

spk_0 like we're the government stud dodge and whatever our doge were like their, their, their,

spk_0 they're cutting all these to people like, like, good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, and there's a lot

spk_0 of the like, well, there's a lot of waste in there. And they're like, people that are mooching. And

spk_0 it's like, but it's like, like, starting in the machine. Or yeah, yeah, yeah. Mooch, Americans should

spk_0 mooch off of the government. That's what it's there for. And the billionaires should have nothing to

spk_0 do with. They're starting at the places with programs that are like the most beneficial to people.

spk_0 And even with our national parks and all of that stuff, it's like, you couldn't start with maybe

spk_0 cutting the defense budget just by a couple billion. Like I, I just don't get it. But maybe I

spk_0 never will. And maybe I'm doing it. That's the thing. And a billionaires doing it is behind all that.

spk_0 You think he gives a shit about us? Like, come on. We could go for hours. But present. Yeah. I mean,

spk_0 it's just like, but I think the reason we bring this up is because we do as it is a unique perspective

spk_0 as former cult members and and drawing the parallels and seeing the same things like happening.

spk_0 The same type of leadership and the same type of like, um, of, uh, of diehard followers. And

spk_0 it's just, you know, this is a caution, it's a cautionary message. We've been here before. We've

spk_0 been here before. I was just saying it like so many other people are like, this is like

spk_0 the 1930s Germany. Like nobody thought it would come to what it came to, which is people saying,

spk_0 oh, I don't ever get that bad. This is how it started. This kind of stuff that you're seeing is how it started.

spk_0 And if it stops, if it stops here, then like, you know, we look like fools. But that's great. That would

spk_0 be amazing. Maybe though that was what I was going to say is like, you know, don't stop exercising

spk_0 your voice. Don't stop. Don't get this. It's so easy to get discouraged and be like, well,

spk_0 what does it matter if I keep saying anything or trying to do anything or go to a protest or whatever.

spk_0 Well, it's fucking better than doing nothing.

spk_0 I love that for you, Jerry.

spk_0 Thanks for listening to Oopse Minicolt. Please rate, review and subscribe on Apple podcasts,

spk_0 Spotify and YouTube. Follow us on Instagram at Oopse Minicolt podcast or email us at Oopse Minicolt

spk_0 at gmail.com. Take it easy and don't join a cult.

spk_0 If you or someone you know has a mental illness is struggling emotionally or has concerns about

spk_0 their mental health, there are ways to get help. Use the resources linked in the description

spk_0 to find help for you, a friend or a family member.

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