October 6, 2025 – PBS News Hour full episode

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Good evening. I'm Jeff Bennett.

spk_0 And I'm Amna Navaz on the NewsHour tonight.

spk_0 President Trump's effort to deploy more National Guard troops gets caught up in the courts.

spk_0 We hear from the governor of one of the Democratic-led states being targeted.

spk_0 After agreeing to some parts of the president's peace plan, Hamas indirectly negotiates with

spk_0 Israel for an end to the devastating two-year war in Gaza.

spk_0 And a new term.

spk_0 The US Supreme Court prepares to take up a case on the controversial practice of conversion therapy for LGBTQ youths.

spk_0 The care that is a stake in this lawsuit is that we are allowed to speak freely.

spk_0 It ends up stacking on levels of shame that a lot of people never recover from.

spk_0 Welcome to the NewsHour.

spk_0 President Trump's plan to deploy National Guard troops to Democratic-led cities is facing

spk_0 significant pushback and setting up a new showdown in federal courts over the limits of his authority.

spk_0 Illinois officials sue the Trump administration today to stop plans to send 400 troops from Texas

spk_0 to aid an immigration enforcement operation in Chicago. The lawsuit called the plan unlawful

spk_0 and dangerous, but the federal judge disagreed, declining to block the deployment for now.

spk_0 It comes just a day after a separate judge blocked the Trump administration from sending California's

spk_0 guard to Oregon in response to a series of clashes outside an immigration detention facility in Portland.

spk_0 The president said today he wants to get the city under control and would consider

spk_0 invoking the Insurrection Act.

spk_0 You look at what's happened with Portland over the years.

spk_0 It's a burning hell hall and then you have a judge that lost a way that tries to pretend that

spk_0 like there's no problem. Actually she's not even saying that. There's a huge problem important.

spk_0 I tell you what the problem is. Crime.

spk_0 For more on how the state is responding, we spoke earlier today with Oregon's Democratic Governor Tina Kotek.

spk_0 Welcome to the news out.

spk_0 Hey Jeff.

spk_0 So I understand you spoke with President Trump about a week ago. How did that conversation go?

spk_0 Well, it was cordial. I was very direct with him. I don't understand why you think it's

spk_0 necessary just to have military intervention in the city of Portland. We are a beautiful, vibrant,

spk_0 safe city. Portland is doing well. And I believe he had at the time and continues to have

spk_0 misinformation, a very old outdated viewpoint about what is happening in Portland.

spk_0 The protests that are happening outside of the ice facility are confined to about a one-block

spk_0 radius of the city of Portland. I will say when I spoke with him, I was like, look, I believe

spk_0 local law enforcement has this situation managed. Always open to conversation, but we do not need

spk_0 military intervention here. And of course, that is continued to escalate since that initial

spk_0 conversation. And it's been a very long week or so of trying to manage a situation that I think

spk_0 is unnecessary. And just today, the White House made the point that the current demonstrations and

spk_0 their view mirror the unrest and violence that we saw back in 2020. Here's what the White House

spk_0 press secretary Caroline Levitt said. For more than 100 days, night after night after night,

spk_0 the ice facility has been really under siege by these anarchists outside. They have been

spk_0 disrespecting law enforcement. They've been inciting violence. We saw again a guillotine rolled

spk_0 out in front of this federal building. And so the president wants to ensure that our federal

spk_0 buildings and our assets are protected. And that's exactly what he's trying to do.

spk_0 So respond to that claim, if you will. Well, it's just a ludicrous characterization of the situation

spk_0 here. I will just say on Sunday, yesterday, we had hundreds of people, thousands of folks in

spk_0 downtown Portland running the Portland Marathon. This is not a war zone. We don't have a challenge here

spk_0 in terms of managing lawful demonstrations outside the ice building. And I believe that they are

spk_0 looking back at information from 2020 and assuming this is the same. Look, lawful demonstrations

spk_0 happen in the city of Portland outside of this facility. It is being managed. What I'm seeing in what

spk_0 we're seeing and what the mayor is seeing on the ground is an escalation from the agents who are

spk_0 protecting the building, trying to antagonize those protesters who are there. And I would like to

spk_0 de-escalate the situation. We don't need a military intervention. And let's remember, the federal judge

spk_0 agreed with that argument, not once, but twice. The federal government has not made a compelling case

spk_0 based on the evidence on the ground that there is an actual problem as it relates to being an

spk_0 insurrection or rebellion or whatever they think this is. Look, there are lawful demonstrations.

spk_0 If somebody crosses the line and there's criminal activity, local law enforcement is holding people

spk_0 accountable. That's important. Breast city, doing fine. We have our challenges like every major city

spk_0 across the country. But the real problems are not the ones the president thinks they are. The

spk_0 let's talk more about the judges ruling because as you mentioned yesterday, a federal judge

spk_0 temporarily blocked the deployment of National Guard troops to Portland. What's your assessment

spk_0 of her ruling and how does it shape your legal strategy moving forward?

spk_0 Well, I want to appreciate everyone who's come forward quickly from the Attorney General's

spk_0 Office to put a good case in front of the federal judge. What we saw is that the information

spk_0 that she has says there is no basis of fact that military intervention is necessary.

spk_0 And her first ruling was about the Oregon National Guard. When President Trump took the

spk_0 Oregon National Guard out of my command to deal with a situation that I believe is not based on

spk_0 facts, the court said, it's not the case. You need to give the control back to the governor.

spk_0 And then a day later, they start calling up the California National Guard to come to Oregon,

spk_0 calling out the Texas National Guard to come to Oregon, and the judge ruled again and said,

spk_0 look, I'm being very clear here, this is not lawful under Title 10. This is not a lawful

spk_0 deployment and the president doesn't have a basis for doing this.

spk_0 Well, in a separate but related case today, the government said that the Texas National Guard is

spk_0 on its way to Illinois. How should governors be prepared to respond when confronted by this

spk_0 type of action by the federal government? Well, as I think we all know, the Trump

spk_0 administration has been an unprecedented rollercoaster of decisions coming out of the White House

spk_0 that make no sense for states. Governors have been prepared across this country to try to react.

spk_0 And I have spoken directly with Governor Pritzker, I'm Governor Newsom. In the case of Illinois,

spk_0 I hope my understanding is they have also filed with the federal court for a temporary

spk_0 restraining order to stop that deployment of the Texas National Guard. We have to go to the courts

spk_0 to seek protection. We are a country based on the rule of law. Whether you are a right left center,

spk_0 we as Americans believe in the Constitution and the rule of law. And that is what should prevail

spk_0 here. And this isn't about Oregon or Illinois anymore. This is about every state in our country.

spk_0 And what President Trump is trying to do is an abuse of power and it is a threat to our democracy.

spk_0 Governors should be in command of their national guards, our citizens soldiers who sign up

spk_0 to stand up in an emergency to deal with real problems. What I would say to governors, and I

spk_0 would particularly want to talk to Republican governors. This is not a Democrat or Republican

spk_0 governor issue. This is an issue for every governor. Don't volunteer your folks. This is a misuse

spk_0 of the authority of the president to intervene in a situation. We do not want to take our troops

spk_0 onto the streets of American cities to go after our own citizens. Local law enforcement across the

spk_0 country knows how to manage for these types of demonstrations. Let them do their job and leave

spk_0 our troops at home. On another matter, it's been reported that the Trump administration through

spk_0 the OMB director Russ Boat has canceled or frozen clean energy funding, including as much as

spk_0 $400 million in federal grants that Oregon stands to lose. How do you assess the impact of that

spk_0 decision and what might you be able to do to mitigate the impact of those losses?

spk_0 Well, this has been happening since the start of the administration. Grants that have been

spk_0 obligated being pulled back, money that have been promised to states, our taxpayer dollars

spk_0 going to DC, coming back to our states being canceled. These are bullying tactics. It's unacceptable.

spk_0 We will continue to look at whether or not we have any options to fight these decisions by the

spk_0 president in the court. When it comes to the $400 million of clean energy grants, it is delaying

spk_0 our ability as a state and frankly as a country to move to clean energy, to move to more

spk_0 renewable clean energy for our future. One of those grants here in the state of Oregon was a $250

spk_0 million grant going to the confederate tribes of the warm springs who were going to be behind a

spk_0 major upgrade in our electricity grid to move power from one side of the state to the other.

spk_0 That is now completely in limbo. That's jobs, that's economic development.

spk_0 And frankly, the president is trying to punish states that didn't vote for them. I want to

spk_0 back up and say, look, I took an oath when I became governor to be a governor for the entire state

spk_0 of Oregon, regardless of people voted for me. I wish the president would uphold his oath as well

spk_0 to take care of every American. Oregon governor Tina Koteck, thanks again for your time. We appreciate

spk_0 it. Thank you.

spk_0 The

spk_0 Today's other headlines begin in Washington, where lawmakers appear no closer to reopening the

spk_0 government as the shutdown approaches the one-week mark. In the Oval Office this afternoon,

spk_0 President Trump suggested that he is open to speaking with Democrats on their biggest demand,

spk_0 health care subsidies. If we made the right deal, I'd make a deal, should.

spk_0 Democrats insist that any funding bill must extend affordable care act subsidies that are set

spk_0 to expire at the end of the year. But earlier in the day, Speaker Mike Johnson held firm that

spk_0 Republicans won't negotiate health care matters until after the government reopens.

spk_0 We need a handful of Democrats to stop the madness reopen the government so that we can get

spk_0 to these critical debates about the year-end policy decisions with regard to the further reforms

spk_0 to health care. Plan simple, that's where we are. This evening, House Minority Leader Hakeem

spk_0 Jeffries called Mr. Trump's comments interesting and added that Democrats remain open to

spk_0 negotiating with any Republicans, including the president. On the first day of its new term,

spk_0 the Supreme Court rejected an appeal from Kylaine Maxwell. Lawyers for Jeffrey Epstein's

spk_0 longtime associate had argued that a plea deal should have shielded her from prosecution.

spk_0 The Court's decision means her only chance of early release would be clemency from President

spk_0 Trump. She's currently serving a 20-year prison term. Also today, the Court declined to hear

spk_0 Missouri's bid to revive a law intended to negate federal gun regulations in the state.

spk_0 They also brushed aside a lawsuit by far-right influencer Laura Loomer against social media

spk_0 companies that removed her from their platforms. And the Court rejected an appeal by live nation

spk_0 in a consumer antitrust case related to ticket pricing. French Prime Minister Sebastian Le Corneux

spk_0 resigned just a day after announcing his cabinet and less than a month in office. His cabinet

spk_0 selections had faced criticism from allies and opponents alike. The Corneux announcement adds

spk_0 to ongoing political uncertainty in France after President Emmanuel Macron's decision

spk_0 last year to hold snap elections that left the legislature deeply divided. It's now up to

spk_0 Macron whether to name a new Prime Minister or dissolve the national assembly and call early

spk_0 elections. The Corneux government will manage day-to-day affairs in the meantime.

spk_0 Israeli authorities say they've deported more than 170 activists who took part in a

spk_0 flotilla aiming to bring aid to Gaza. Climate activist Greta Tunberg was among the dozens who

spk_0 landed in Athens earlier today. Israel also denied accusations that the activists had been mistreated

spk_0 while in Israeli custody. Israel's foreign ministry posted images of their release,

spk_0 writing that, quote, all the legal rights of the participants in this PR stunt were and will

spk_0 continue to be fully upheld. Meanwhile, lawyers say at least 150 people are still being held in

spk_0 Israel with dozens taking part in a hunger strike. The International Criminal Court today convicted

spk_0 a jenjuied militial leader for atrocities committed in Sudan's Darfur region more than two decades ago.

spk_0 The chamber is convinced that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt of the crimes with

spk_0 which he has been charged. Ali Muhammad Ali Abaddav Rahman showed little emotion as he was

spk_0 found guilty on 27 counts of crimes against humanity and war crimes. He had denied the charges.

spk_0 It is the first such conviction related to the violence in Darfur were up to 300,000 people were

spk_0 killed and millions driven from their homes during a government crackdown on a rebellion starting in

spk_0 2003. Abaddav Rahman faces a maximum sentence of life in prison. In Tibet, a rescue has been taking

spk_0 place on Mount Everest where hundreds of hikers were trapped by heavy snow. Chinese state media

spk_0 reported that around 350 hikers had made their way down to a safe meeting point while rescuers

spk_0 are in contact with 200 others still on the mountain. The hikers were stranded at an elevation of

spk_0 more than 16,000 feet. The snowstorm hit during a week-long national holiday in China when many

spk_0 people travel both within China and abroad. Mount Everest has seen multiple accidents and

spk_0 overcrowding issues in recent years. Back in this country, South Carolina's top law official says

spk_0 there's no evidence to suggest that arson was to blame for a fire that destroyed a circuit

spk_0 court judge's home over the weekend, though the investigation is ongoing. Smoke billowed over

spk_0 the marshes of Edistow Island as the residents went up in flames on Saturday. Officials they say

spk_0 three people were injured but did not provide details. The property is owned by circuit judge

spk_0 Diane Goodstein, who has been a state judge for nearly three decades. Last month, she temporarily

spk_0 blocks South Carolina from giving state voter data to the Department of Justice.

spk_0 The CDC officially updated its vaccine guidelines today to align with recommendations made by the

spk_0 advisory committee that was picked by health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The agency is no

spk_0 longer recommending COVID-19 vaccines for all Americans six months and older. Instead, officials

spk_0 are encouraging, quote, individual-based decision-making. That includes checking with a medical

spk_0 professional, especially for seniors. The agency is also recommending a standalone chickenpox shot

spk_0 for toddlers rather than combining it with measles, mumps, and rubella. Many medical experts warn

spk_0 the committee's recommendations have led to confusion and mistrust over vaccines.

spk_0 Bon Wall Street today stocks started the week mixed. The Dow Jones industrial average slipped

spk_0 about 60 points. The Nasdaq rose around 160 points. The S&P 500 also ended in positive territory.

spk_0 And a trio of scientists won this year's Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work

spk_0 on the human immune system. The committee said the discoveries of Mary Bronco, Fred Ramstell,

spk_0 and Shimon Sakaguchi helped advance treatments for cancer and autoimmune diseases and could help

spk_0 with organ transplants. The announcement today in Sweden was the first of this year's Nobel

spk_0 announcements. The three will share nearly $1.2 million in prize money, and tomorrow, the physics prize

spk_0 will be handed out. Still to come, on the news hour, why an increasing number of Israeli

spk_0 reservists are refusing to be redeployed to Gaza. A leadership change shakes up CBS News.

spk_0 And Tamara Keith and Amy Walter discuss the state of the government shutdown.

spk_0 This is the PBS News Hour from the David M. Rubenstein Studio at WETA in Washington,

spk_0 and in the West from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism at Arizona State University.

spk_0 Today, Israel and Hamas launched indirect talks in Egypt for a potential ceasefire in Gaza.

spk_0 The first phase of the U.S. drafted peace plan calls for the release of the Israeli hostages

spk_0 in exchange for the partial withdrawal of Israeli troops. A second phase envisions the end of the war

spk_0 and a lasting governance plan for Gaza. Nick Schifrin's following all this and joins us now.

spk_0 So, and I give us the latest, where do these talks stand right now?

spk_0 So, I'm now, as you said, the U.S. and Israel see this happening in two phases. The first phase,

spk_0 Hamas would have to release all 50 Israeli hostages, about 20 or so are believed to still be alive.

spk_0 And then Israel would not really withdraw, but move back to what the yellow line that you see

spk_0 in this map created by the Trump administration, which is still deep inside of Gaza, some four miles

spk_0 inside of Gaza in the South. Israel would also release nearly 2,000 Palestinian detainees.

spk_0 The U.S. and Israel believe that they're having in Cairo right now or in Sharmel Sheikh,

spk_0 rather a technocratic conversation. What's the sequencing of this movement? Does Hamas know

spk_0 where all the hostages are, including the deceased? But here's the thing. Hamas has not publicly

spk_0 agreed to the very concept of a phase one and a phase two that we've been talking about.

spk_0 And before today, mediators told me that Hamas was questioning key aspects of this deal,

spk_0 including not only the sequencing, but the very active disarming that Israel said is required

spk_0 to actually seal this deal. In the past, Hamas has not been willing to release hostages,

spk_0 unless Israel ended the war and agreed to a full withdrawal, and that is not what phase one

spk_0 demands. So what we're watching to see on that is whether Hamas's thinking has changed,

spk_0 whether they're willing to release hostages before that step that the Israelis would take.

spk_0 So if they even get to us, tell us a to it. Tell us about phase two. What does that entail?

spk_0 These are the fundamental questions that have dogged all sides since October the 7th. Let's go

spk_0 through some of them. A surge of humanitarian aid into Gaza, demilitarizing Hamas, allowing

spk_0 fighters and the Steve if they're announced violence, international security force to take over Gaza,

spk_0 and the creation of a government led by Palestinians not connected to Hamas, and of course an

spk_0 eventual Palestinian state. Pushed whether the administration actually does support a Palestinian

spk_0 state this weekend, Secretary of State Marco Rubio described how much time it might take to create

spk_0 new Palestinian governance in Gaza. That doesn't exist right now. That has to be built,

spk_0 and that's going to take time. You're not going to build that in 72 hours. You're not going to

spk_0 build that in 72 weeks. I mean, it's going to take some time to get to that point.

spk_0 For the record, 72 weeks from now is February 2027. For his part, President Trump was more

spk_0 positive today about Hamas' abilities and intentions. I think Hamas now has been,

spk_0 all I can say is they've been fine. They've been fine. I hope it's going to continue that way.

spk_0 I think it will. I really think we're going to have a deal. We have a really good chance of

spk_0 making a deal, and it will be a lasting deal. We want to have peace.

spk_0 I'm going to give you a sense, though, of how difficult even phase one will be a U.S.

spk_0 official confirm to me today that the U.S. officials part of this mediation, including

spk_0 Ambassador Steve Whitkopf right there, and the President's son-in-law, Jared Kushner,

spk_0 were not in Egypt today and will not be in Egypt until the two sides show more evidence of moving

spk_0 toward some kind of deal. Meanwhile, Nick, I know tomorrow, as you know, marks two years since

spk_0 Osservific Hamas attacks, and Israeli and your team have been working on stories to mark the

spk_0 week. Tell us about those. Yeah, as you know, October the 7th is really a day before and a day

spk_0 after for the Middle East when history split. And we wanted to do a series of stories from the region.

spk_0 A new poll finds that two-thirds of Israelis now say the time has come to end the war in Gaza.

spk_0 That's the highest number since the beginning of the war, 27 percent. You see that in red down

spk_0 there say it's not time to end the war. And that divide in Israeli societies reflected inside

spk_0 Israeli's military, where some reserve say the war must be fought and won and others are refusing

spk_0 to serve. Above Israel's largest port, the words on the hostage poster declare will bring them

spk_0 back and we will rise. But Israeli military reserve Captain Ron Feiner believes the war in Gaza

spk_0 is leading the country astray. After I understood that this government is not going to listen to

spk_0 the voice of most of the people in Israel and they are willing to keep the war going forever,

spk_0 and I decided that I can't, I just can't show up.

spk_0 Since October the 7th, Feiner led Israeli infantry units on three deployments, including into Lebanon.

spk_0 But when he was called up a fourth time, he refused. And with 400 other soldiers signed a petition

spk_0 that declared the war in Gaza is a death sentence for our kidnap brothers and sisters.

spk_0 And for Feiner, a possible death sentence for his men.

spk_0 I decided to refuse only after I understood that there is no other way to stop this war and also

spk_0 help them, like my soldiers and my command that we used to fight together in Lebanon and I really

spk_0 care for them and I also want to save their lives and I actually realized that to save their lives,

spk_0 we have to stop the war. In Israel's multiple wars since October the 7th about half of the troops

spk_0 have been reservists who traditionally hold territory after it's captured by active duty troops.

spk_0 The price that reservists have paid in Israel's longest war has been heavy,

spk_0 and that has led to a no-show rate reported by Israeli media of more than 40 percent.

spk_0 There is a huge amount of people in Israel that are not willing to show up anymore.

spk_0 For his refusal, Feiner went to prison,

spk_0 Released only because Israel went to war with Iran.

spk_0 I'm ready to go to prison again. I think this is a price that is okay to pay for this kind of

spk_0 goal, which is for me so important and so urgent. I have seen what's happening on the ground and

spk_0 I understand it right now. What we are doing is not any more helping to bringing bags of hostages.

spk_0 Rafael Baish is a master sergeant in the reserves and a tank gunner who until August fought on Gaza's

spk_0 front line. He's been called up three times for a total of 300 days deployed to both Gaza and

spk_0 Lebanon and he too signed the petition demanding the government make a deal.

spk_0 It was very tired of not being listened by the government to do the job, to sacrifice everything

spk_0 and not feeling that the government really care about the about us.

spk_0 The Ash lives in Bersheba about 25 miles from Gaza and considers himself a strategist.

spk_0 He says that Israel is fighting a guerrilla war against Hamas and cannot accomplish militarily

spk_0 its dual goals of defeating Hamas and saving the hostages.

spk_0 He also warns Israel is facing a social crisis,

spk_0 tearing at the very fabric of Israeli society.

spk_0 In my company, only and I know it's in other places in the army, a third of the people who were

spk_0 married got divorced during the war. And yet he is a proud Israeli immigrant whose family moved

spk_0 here from France. He expects to be called up again soon and has decided despite reservations,

spk_0 he will still serve. We can try our best as civilian like I'm doing with you,

spk_0 like I'm doing everywhere in Israel, trying to push for this operation not to happen and to

spk_0 break back the hostages in another way and to get out of Gaza. But when the army

spk_0 give an order, I think the role of a soldier is to listen.

spk_0 Some experiences they just change you.

spk_0 This 22-year-old reservist is an intelligence officer. She spoke to our producer Carl Bostic

spk_0 and asked we keep her anonymous. After October 7th, she volunteered for the reserves and has

spk_0 since served 420 days.

spk_0 I think it's important that we have a strong army. But in this situation where the government wants

spk_0 this war to go on forever, I have a responsibility to use every power I have to stop this war.

spk_0 The government will see it and will say, there is averson joining. I'm sorry, the day comes.

spk_0 And if they call you up, what will you do?

spk_0 I will do whatever I can to not go. If we continue, it will go on forever.

spk_0 She also calls the scale of Gaza's destruction unacceptable.

spk_0 There is a lot of suffering in this world. But this is not far away. This is not in some other land

spk_0 which I can choose whether to care about it or not. What's happening in Gaza, my country is doing it.

spk_0 I care deeply and a lot of people I know care deeply.

spk_0 And we are not ignorant to it and we are not called to it and we care.

spk_0 And she cares for her fellow soldiers. She says the war has distorted Israel's natural rhythm

spk_0 of life and death. And that young people especially have had to accept the pain of loss.

spk_0 I'm 22, I've been to three funerals this last two years. And people my age dying,

spk_0 people I know, it's just a part of life at this point. And it's not something we can accept.

spk_0 The fight for a better future, for peace, for equality, will continue after this war.

spk_0 And if I have to fight it for the rest of my life, I will.

spk_0 But Israel's government and other reservists believe the fight that is necessary is the one to

spk_0 defeat Hamas. For me, I don't think it's like question, it's obligation to serve my country.

spk_0 In the last two years, 23-year-old Michael Lapin has deployed five times for a total of more

spk_0 than 300 days. Like all Israelis, he was touched by terror. His grandmother lived in the hall

spk_0 of the Alps overrun by Hamas on October 7th. He believes the Israeli military and the cause for which

spk_0 it fights is moral. We're talking about a strip, a very small area with a lot of tunnels, with

spk_0 a lot of population, when we try the best to take care of the civilians, but both make sure Hamas

spk_0 is not going to rule ever again. He too is also learning to live with the pain of loss.

spk_0 But he has no doubt if he's called up for a six-time what choice he'll make.

spk_0 As a brigade, we lost eight soldiers at ten days. I lost my captain. That's some things that

spk_0 never leaves you. I will go and I will serve until I'm not needed anymore.

spk_0 Lapin's day job is at a Tel Aviv sports and live music bar that's a favorite for foreigners,

spk_0 Mike's place, right next to the beach. And between pours, he acknowledges how the war has divided

spk_0 Israel and its reservists. What can I get you? He refuses to judge anyone who refuses military

spk_0 duty. I think everyone suffered a lot since the beginning of the war and if some people say enough

spk_0 for them is enough. So I respect that. And I thank them for their service. Nobody live

spk_0 wars, wars is not a good thing. But at the end of the day, we want to end up Hamas and we want to

spk_0 live in peace without any wars. And that is perhaps where Israel is unified, saving hostages,

spk_0 hoping to recover from the war's damage and ensuring the war never happens again. For the

spk_0 day. This podcast is supported in part by the New England Innovation Academy in Marlboro,

spk_0 Massachusetts, where today's students become tomorrow's innovators by discovering their passions

spk_0 and purpose while preparing for what's next. Reimagining education with a future focus curriculum,

spk_0 entrepreneurial mindset and real world application. Currently enrolling grades six through 12 day

spk_0 and boarding students. Learn more at anyiacademy.org.

spk_0 The US Supreme Court began a new term today marking the first day of oral arguments. One of the

spk_0 marquee cases of this term will be argued tomorrow. A challenge to a ban on so-called conversion

spk_0 therapy for youth. The practice broadly refers to attempts to change a person's sexual orientation

spk_0 or gender identity. It's banned in 23 states and the District of Columbia by one estimate some

spk_0 350,000 LGBTQ adults received conversion therapy as adolescents. The Supreme Court declined to

spk_0 hear challenges to such bans in the past, but as Stephanie Psy reports, this case is being heard

spk_0 against a backdrop of intensifying cultural and political debates around LGBTQ rights.

spk_0 And a warning, this story includes discussion of suicide.

spk_0 Kaley Childs has been a licensed counselor in Colorado Springs for about 10 years.

spk_0 Her clients are mostly adults, but she sees some families in adolescents too.

spk_0 And sometimes clients seek her help specifically because she's Christian.

spk_0 That is the worldview on which all of my other activities lie. And so

spk_0 it that's just going to be an inevitable part of anybody coming and talking to me.

spk_0 I need them and we have a conversation. What goals, if they already have goals in mind,

spk_0 do they think counseling will help them accomplish?

spk_0 But right now, Childs says the state of Colorado prevents her from helping some clients

spk_0 reach their goals. In 2019, Colorado passed a law banning treatment for those under 18 that

spk_0 quote, attempts are purports to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity,

spk_0 including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions or to eliminate or reduce sexual

spk_0 or romantic attraction or feelings toward individuals of the same sex. License providers who

spk_0 violated face a $5,000 fine in potential loss of their license.

spk_0 This week, the Supreme Court is hearing a challenge to Colorado's ban.

spk_0 The lawsuit, backed by the Trump administration, was brought by Kaley Childs,

spk_0 who argues the ban infringes on her right to free speech.

spk_0 The only care that we're talking about is conversations with people who are

spk_0 voluntary and who are coming to my office because they want to see me.

spk_0 The care that is at stake in this lawsuit is that we are allowed to speak freely and that we are

spk_0 allowed to, by the product of that, sort through feelings, sensations, thoughts, beliefs.

spk_0 It's truly that we can have a conversation without the government

spk_0 peering into our private counseling conversation,

spk_0 intictating what we can and cannot talk about.

spk_0 Supporters of the ban say it's not a question of free speech, but professional conduct,

spk_0 regulating health care by prohibiting a practice that research has shown to be not only

spk_0 ineffective, but also associated with a roughly twofold increase in suicide attempts.

spk_0 Joyce Calvo's daughter, Alana Chen, was a devout Catholic who wanted to become a nun.

spk_0 But when she was just 14, Chen confessed to a priest that she was attracted to other girls.

spk_0 He went on to tell her that was a mortal sin, which is the worst sin, you know,

spk_0 and it's very scary for a child to think they're going to burn in hell.

spk_0 And he was just telling her all these books to read and that I can help you and she was afraid,

spk_0 so she wanted that help.

spk_0 After her confession to the priest, Calvo says Chen received almost a decade of conversion therapy

spk_0 and religious counseling hidden from her parents.

spk_0 Chen later described her experiences and emotions in her own words.

spk_0 I think the church's counsel is what led me to be hospitalized.

spk_0 I was feeling so much shame that I was comforted by the thought of hurting myself.

spk_0 Chen died by suicide in 2019 when she was just 24.

spk_0 I didn't want anyone to know why I loved God so much.

spk_0 Her story was documented in the podcast Dear Alana, hosted by Simon Kent Fung,

spk_0 who experienced years of conversion therapy himself.

spk_0 Is it, ends up stacking on levels of shame that a lot of people never recover from?

spk_0 First, there's the shame that you feel for just being different, right?

spk_0 Then there's the shame that comes from being told that something horrible happened to you,

spk_0 that may do this way.

spk_0 And then thirdly, there's the shame that happens when you can't actually change.

spk_0 Colorado's law doesn't apply to unlicensed religious counselors, such as priests,

spk_0 who account for the vast majority of conversion therapy cases.

spk_0 The ban went into effect just months before Alana Chen's death.

spk_0 This past August, Calvo filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court.

spk_0 How does my faith inform and fit with these experiences?

spk_0 Julius Siddusky is a clinical psychologist in suburban Denver.

spk_0 A Catholic, she often works with Christian youth and adults who struggle with their sexuality

spk_0 or gender. She too wrote a brief for the Supreme Court case.

spk_0 If a gay patient comes in or a transgender patient comes in and says,

spk_0 I don't want to be this anymore, can a clinician set that goal and be within the ethical

spk_0 sort of framework that you all have as licensed practitioners?

spk_0 Therapy is not just about talking.

spk_0 It's about psychological interventions that have research behind them.

spk_0 When my clients come in and they do want to change their attractions, let's say,

spk_0 or they do, they want to align with their sex.

spk_0 It's not that as a therapist I'm arbitrating that and I'm saying,

spk_0 you're not allowed to have that goal.

spk_0 What I'm doing is I'm bringing in what we know from research and what I can tell you from

spk_0 the research is we do not have clear protocols that help people align with their sex.

spk_0 And we don't have clear protocols that have been effective in changing sexual orientation.

spk_0 Sadaski also argues that the band doesn't actually prohibit the kinds of conversations

spk_0 Kayleigh Childs wants to have with her clients.

spk_0 To the credit of whoever drafted this law, they wrote into the law that you are allowed to

spk_0 help people with identity exploration and identity development.

spk_0 I don't know how much more clear a law could be about the valuing of identity work,

spk_0 the valuing of exploration without having a fixed outcome.

spk_0 But some disagree.

spk_0 It's very explicit that this is a requirement of the law that you cannot do anything but affirm or ignore.

spk_0 And that's my experience.

spk_0 In Northern Colorado, Erin Lee says her daughter Chloe began abruptly questioning her gender

spk_0 identity several years ago.

spk_0 We didn't know how to talk about it and we didn't want to say anything we couldn't take back.

spk_0 And so we just totally ignored it.

spk_0 We didn't affirm so we didn't call her the new name.

spk_0 We also didn't say you're not trans, that's not real.

spk_0 Lee eventually contacted multiple therapists but couldn't find the right fit.

spk_0 We found a Christian counselor.

spk_0 We were not Christian at the time but we were looking for someone who wasn't going to

spk_0 automatically affirm.

spk_0 She went through like six of these sessions and she was getting worse mentally.

spk_0 She was becoming more withdrawn, more dark, and we thought why isn't she getting better.

spk_0 But I now understand it's because counselors didn't they're afraid.

spk_0 They're afraid to touch this issue.

spk_0 They know they can't do what they're trained to do,

spk_0 which is ask questions and get to the root cause of why this person's feeling that way or help

spk_0 them through it.

spk_0 In our daughter's case, she didn't want to feel that way.

spk_0 Chloe, who is now 16 and no longer identifies as a boy, has since spoken out about her experience.

spk_0 I can certainly think of adolescents and people who I've witnessed suffer from this law.

spk_0 Back in Colorado Springs, Kayleigh Child says she's had to turn away clients

spk_0 because she believes the law forces her to avoid certain conversations.

spk_0 The consequence is a $5,000 fine in the loss of your license, which is the loss of your career

spk_0 and your livelihood. That's not a risk many people are willing to take.

spk_0 Colorado officials say they haven't taken action against any provider since the law took effect.

spk_0 But if the high court overturns the ban, it supporters, like Joyce Calvo and Simon Kent Fung,

spk_0 believe the impacts will be sweeping.

spk_0 I think the tragic outcome of this is likely that we're going to see more kids

spk_0 feeling alienated from their families and despairing.

spk_0 What we're likely going to see are more stories like Alana's.

spk_0 Alana eventually realized the conversion therapy wasn't working,

spk_0 and her writings took on a different tone.

spk_0 I always thought there must be something wrong with me.

spk_0 Not wrong with God or his roles. I feel like I've been fooled all this time.

spk_0 I'm so angry, I'm hurt. I still feel broken.

spk_0 By then, it was too late. Her faith and her life were lost.

spk_0 For the PBS NewsHour, I'm Stephanie Sy in Colorado.

spk_0 Paramount announced today it's acquiring the free press.

spk_0 The Independent News and Commentary website found it in 2021 by Barry Weiss.

spk_0 As part of the $150 million deal, Weiss will also take on a new role at CBS News as editor-in-chief.

spk_0 A former opinion editor at The New York Times, Weiss describes herself as a centrist politically,

spk_0 and is known for pushing back against what she calls woke orthodoxy in mainstream media.

spk_0 She alleged a culture of intolerance when she resigned from the Times.

spk_0 After the announcement Weiss posted a video message saying in part this.

spk_0 What does it mean for CBS News? It means a redoubled commitment to great journalism.

spk_0 It means building on a storied legacy and bringing that historic newsroom into 2025 and beyond.

spk_0 Most of all, it means working tirelessly to make sure CBS is the most trusted news organization

spk_0 in the world. For more on what this means for CBS News and the broader media landscape,

spk_0 I'm joined by Oliver Darcy, founder and lead author of the Media Newsletter status. He also co-hosts

spk_0 his podcast called Power Lines. Oliver, welcome to the NewsHour. Thanks for joining us.

spk_0 Thank you for having me. So before we talk about what this all means, just tell us a little bit more

spk_0 about Barry Weiss. I mean, this is someone who criticized Trump in his first term. She's also

spk_0 staunchly defended Israel, decried woke culture in colleges and media. How would you describe her

spk_0 voice and her role in the media landscape? Sure. I think she's unquestionably, and she probably

spk_0 would concede this herself, a very polarizing figure. She is someone who is difficult to really put

spk_0 in one bucket. You wouldn't say she's, for instance, a MAGA media personality, but she's certainly

spk_0 not on the left either. I think the best way actually to maybe describe her is what she stands

spk_0 against, what she rails against. And that really does end up aligning her more with conservatives.

spk_0 She is, for instance, very anti-DI, anti-woke, as you said. She has been a very

spk_0 staunch critic of the mainstream press. And I think at times has been actually fairly dishonest in

spk_0 the way she's portrayed how the press operates and how it reports. And suggested, for instance, that

spk_0 it is biased, it's unfair, it doesn't take into account the conservative point of view.

spk_0 And while she has been critical of Trump at times, where the free press has been critical of Trump,

spk_0 I can't but say that if you go to the free press on a regular basis, it's a right-wing opinion

spk_0 blog, really at the end of the day. And while it does criticize Trump occasionally, the main

spk_0 threat, I think, you would take away, you would say that main threat to Western civilization is not

spk_0 Trump and the creeping autocracy in this country. It's really initiatives like DEI for being

spk_0 to woke. And that is the real main threat to Western civilization to America. And that is,

spk_0 that's what David Ellison is buying today. It's this right-wing opinion blog that really pushes

spk_0 those narratives. Well, so what does this mean for CBS News then, Oliver, for a fierce critic of

spk_0 mainstream media to now be in charge of one of the legacy institutions here. It's home to story,

spk_0 journalism brands like 60 minutes. What does that mean for CBS News and what are you hearing from

spk_0 folks inside? I think there's real concern inside CBS News about what this means. I don't think

spk_0 anyone really knows what it means. I think we can just though read the tea leaves, right? And

spk_0 if you follow Barry White, I see no she's been again critical of the way the mainstream press has

spk_0 operated. Critical the way, for instance, it covered the pandemic and the election of Donald Trump

spk_0 and a number of other things. So I think what we will likely see is them work to fold in what they

spk_0 would say are conservative views, which end up being pro-Trump views. I think that's certainly likely

spk_0 to happen at CBS News. But there's a real question of how involved Barry will be

spk_0 in guiding this organization editorally. Is this a editor-in-chief title that she is being given,

spk_0 but she's really not going to be in the lead? Or is she actually going to be on those 9 a.m.

spk_0 editorial meetings directing coverage? That remains to be seen. And I think that's what CBS News

spk_0 are thinking or staffers are wondering today, like how involved does she want to be programming a

spk_0 program like 60 minutes? Is it going to be very hands-on? Or is she going to let the program operate

spk_0 fairly autonomously like it has for decades? That's unknown. So give us the bigger media picture

spk_0 landscape here now because when you look at the Ellison family here, right, you have Larry Ellison,

spk_0 the father of David Ellison, who's the founder of Oracle, Larry, he's a strong Trump supporter as

spk_0 well. He's also now among the investors in this newly configured American version of TikTok,

spk_0 the family's also aiming to acquire Warner Brothers Discovery. This father's Unduo now controls

spk_0 huge swaths of the media, both in social media and in Hollywood and on television. How does that

spk_0 change the landscape? Yeah, these are the new media titans of our age. You

spk_0 said they already control Paramount, which means they control CBGS News, the Paramount Pictures,

spk_0 Studio. And now they are, to my understanding, according to sources,

spk_0 preparing a bid for Warner Brothers Discovery, which obviously has other Studio controls HBO Max

spk_0 and also has CNN. And so what you could see soon is Larry Ellison and his son, David Ellison,

spk_0 controlling a large part of how Americans absorb the information around the world, the news,

spk_0 as well as entertainment. They could own TikTok, they could own Paramount, they could own Warner Brothers,

spk_0 they could own CNN, CBS News. This would be really unprecedented amount of control over how people

spk_0 get their information, how it's shaped, how culture is shaped. And it's coming from people, again,

spk_0 who have been the very least sympathetic to Donald Trump. You know, Larry Ellison is an ally

spk_0 of Donald Trump. He's been at the White House. And as part of this deal, David Ellison agreed to

spk_0 a number of concessions to get this deal across the finish line at CBS News. So they installed the

spk_0 conservative on Bundman there. They're obviously bringing on Barry Weiss and a number of other

spk_0 things. So I think it's at the very least concerning here. Oliver Darcy from the Media Newsletter

spk_0 Status joining us tonight. Oliver, thank you. Good to speak with you.

spk_0 Thank you.

spk_0 Well, it is day six of the federal government shutdown and there are no signs of the stalemate ending.

spk_0 To discuss that and more, we're joined now by our politics Monday duo that's Amy Walter of the

spk_0 Cook Political Report with Amy Walter and Tamra Keith of NPR. So as I said, it doesn't seem like

spk_0 anything's going to change soon. The House is out again this week. The Senate is expected to vote

spk_0 again today. That vote is expected to fail. So Tam, what could break this law jam?

spk_0 Probably the most likely thing to break the law jam is some sort of pressure coming to bear. And

spk_0 what I mean is paychecks not going out. When you get to a point where paychecks aren't going out

spk_0 in the past in the past shutdown in 2019, 2018 and 2019, that finally ended in part because TSA agents

spk_0 weren't coming to the office or weren't going to the airport because their paychecks weren't coming

spk_0 through. So there hasn't been a real forcing mechanism just yet. The public outcry isn't really

spk_0 there. It's obviously a really big deal here in Washington, DC. It's less of a big deal in other

spk_0 parts of the country at this point. We did see the president today, and this is a little confusing,

spk_0 say that he was negotiating that they were negotiating with Democrats about health care,

spk_0 which is the issue that Democrats are sort of asking for negotiations on. The issue, though, is

spk_0 Democrats on the Hill and Republicans on the Hill who've spoken to my colleagues say there

spk_0 are no negotiations. So maybe the president is saying, maybe the president is spelling out a

spk_0 potential path going forward, but he's spelling out a future path that doesn't currently exist.

spk_0 Amy, there's some new polling from CBS News and UGov that shows everyone is getting bad marks for

spk_0 how they're handling this. About half of Americans disapprove of how the president,

spk_0 and Republicans, and how Democrats in Congress are dealing with this might public pressure change

spk_0 anything? Well, it's clear, I think, as Tam pointed out, that it's still in the theoretical

spk_0 realm right now, and so when it gets into the realistic realm, whether it's TSA agents or whether

spk_0 it's other government services that impact people being cut or stymied, then you may see the

spk_0 pressure coming on. Right now, Democrats feel heartened by the fact that Republicans are still

spk_0 getting a little bit more of the blame and a lot of these public polls. But to me, the bigger

spk_0 question has always been, why do Democrats want to do this, and what are they going to try to

spk_0 extract from this process? A lot of it driven by, as we've talked about, before the ways in which

spk_0 the Democratic base is so frustrated with what they see as a fethylist leadership in Washington.

spk_0 When you looked at that CBS poll, though, only about 48 percent of Democrats think today that

spk_0 this is worth it, that the shutdown is worth it, that trying to get concessions from Republicans

spk_0 on health care, that is not yet breaking through to a majority of even Democratic voters.

spk_0 And so at the end of the day, if Democrats do end up voting for opening the government by

spk_0 allowing that closure to happen, then will the base feel like they got something out of this,

spk_0 or will they feel as if this was yet another fight that Democrats lost to Donald Trump?

spk_0 Yeah. Well, let's talk about the National Guard deployments, because as we reported on this

spk_0 program earlier, both the state of Illinois and the city of Chicago have sued the Trump

spk_0 administration to block National Guard troops being deployed to Chicago. The president's plan

spk_0 to do the same in Portland was blocked yesterday by a federal judge, Tam, based on your reporting,

spk_0 what's the president's end game? What is he trying to gain by sending in these troops?

spk_0 The president has talked about wanting to send troops into cities for a long time. He has continued

spk_0 this, I mean, this goes back to when he was on office before during 2020 in the wake of the

spk_0 George Floyd protest. And this is a continuation of that pushing it further. Today, though, he was

spk_0 asked if he would invoke the Insurrection Act, which would give him even greater power. And he

spk_0 said he hasn't needed to do that yet. Part of this is having this fight, having this public fight

spk_0 with Democratic cities. And part of it is that there are true believers in the Trump White House,

spk_0 including Stephen Miller, who believe that ICE agents are directly under attack, and that the

spk_0 National Guard is needed to protect them. And Amy, we talked so much about the impact on these

spk_0 cities and the Democratic leaders. What's the potential impact, the potential political liability for

spk_0 President Trump with this perceived executive overreach? Yeah. Well, it is being seen right now.

spk_0 When you look again, just look at that poll that came out from CBS, 58 percent disapprove of

spk_0 sending National Guard into the cities. This is one of those issues that it's not just that it's

spk_0 polarizing. Republicans absolutely supportive of it, Democrats absolutely against it. But

spk_0 independent voters really do not like what they are seeing with this. And I think that's really

spk_0 what it comes down to. You know, we've seen over the course of the first term, but certainly in

spk_0 the second term, the president's decision to really target blue cities, states, whether it is

spk_0 with National Guard troops, whether it's cutting funding or holding up funding in those states.

spk_0 It's very clear that his agenda is to make the states that did not vote for him.

spk_0 There's a price to pay for that versus the red states that did.

spk_0 Yeah. And the time that remains, I want to talk about redistricting.

spk_0 Because voting apparently kicks off in California today. Yeah. As voters decide the fate of their

spk_0 redistricting measure, there are new maps in Texas that are subject to a court hearing,

spk_0 their fresh efforts by Republicans in Utah and Nebraska to redraw those maps. Let's talk about

spk_0 California. What does the polling suggest there? How might that help that might go?

spk_0 Yeah. The polling right now suggests that the yes campaign, so it would allow the redrawing of

spk_0 these lines to go through is ahead. But there's still a lot of people who are undecided on this.

spk_0 I haven't heard a lot about this. So this next month is going to be critically important on

spk_0 persuasion. Donald Trump not surprisingly paying a starring role in this in a state where he is

spk_0 deeply unpopular. But for the folks who are trying to defeat this proposition, the issue of

spk_0 fairness, basically, overriding an independent commission, letting politicians draw

spk_0 district lines. That's also very unpopular. So that's where they're going to go in terms of

spk_0 their messaging. Utah is also fascinating. It's one of the few states where Democrats may get

spk_0 an opportunity to expand their reach. This is not exactly a blue state, but the city of Salt Lake

spk_0 City is very democratic. And this came through a court decision that had been litigated for the

spk_0 last couple of years. If this new map is approved by the judge, this could give Democrats an

spk_0 opportunity in two districts in Utah. More to come, Amy Walter. Tamer Keith, thanks to you both.

spk_0 You're welcome.

spk_0 And that is the news hour for tonight. I'm Jeff Bennett.

spk_0 And I'm Omnenevaaz on behalf of the entire news hour team. Thank you for joining us.

October 6, 2025 &#8211; PBS News Hour full episode

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