From What Next: Trans and Shut Out in Trump’s America

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hi, I'm Daisy from Slate's audio team. As Outward continues its summer hiatus,

spk_0 we are bringing you another episode from a different Slate show about an issue that we know

spk_0 that Outward listeners would care to hear about. Today I'm bringing you an episode of What Next,

spk_0 which is Slate's daily news show hosted by Mary Harris. In this episode, Mary talks to reporter

spk_0 Grace Byron, who has been covering the state of trans health care across the country during

spk_0 the Second Trump administration. It's a really thoughtful conversation, and I think that Outward

spk_0 listeners will be happy to hear Grace on the show. We should have more information for you soon

spk_0 about when you can expect new episodes of Outward in your feed, and in the meantime, thank you so

spk_0 much for listening. Just a heads up, there are a couple of brief S words in this episode. You've been warned.

spk_0 Right off of Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, in front of a giant sculpture of some alphabet blocks,

spk_0 families have been gathering for months now. They're there to protest what's happening at the

spk_0 Children's Hospital. Protesters are holding a rally outside Children's Hospital Los Angeles after

spk_0 the hospital's decision to put a pause on hormonal therapy treatments for new transgender youth patients.

spk_0 This comes on the first. These folks were showing up to try to ensure that the gender clinic

spk_0 that operated here, one of the oldest and largest in the country, would stay open for new patients.

spk_0 These are teachers, these are parents, and they say they are fighting for life-saving medical care.

spk_0 Then it became clear they were fighting for much more than that because this clinic was closing

spk_0 its doors for good. We have to sit down with my daughter actually today,

spk_0 and it was hard. It's hard to explain that there's people in the world that don't want her to see the doctor.

spk_0 Children's Hospital Los Angeles now joins a growing list of youth gender clinics that are winding down

spk_0 the services they offer. In New York, NYU paused and then resumed some appointments. In Illinois,

spk_0 one hospital canceled surgeries for anyone under 19. Another stopped prescribing hormones to miners.

spk_0 A lot of these hospitals are sort of citing that their funding could be pulled, and if they lose

spk_0 this funding they would have to close the hospital at large, which couldn't mean they couldn't

spk_0 treat even trans adults, or it could just mean right they can't treat anyone because they have

spk_0 no money, so they can't treat patients for like neurological issues, right? If they have no money

spk_0 or cross-saboard, if they're funding it's slashed across all sectors, then they can't provide health

spk_0 care for other people. What do you make of that? Do you buy that? Do you see the logic of that decision,

spk_0 or do you kind of think it's bullshit? It's bullshit. It's both bullshit and not bullshit,

spk_0 right? I understand if you're like, well, we're going to have no money, and we won't be able to treat

spk_0 any patients why these hospitals are doing that, but that doesn't mean it's not cowardly.

spk_0 Grace Byron is a reporter who covers trans rights. She's trans herself. She says, it's worth

spk_0 remembering that it's only been three years since California became the first state in the country

spk_0 to declare itself a sanctuary for transgender youth. But that doesn't seem to have helped anyone

spk_0 here. Do you feel like there is such a thing as a trans sanctuary state right now?

spk_0 No, no. I don't think so. I think it's sort of this idea that similar to abortion,

spk_0 where bodily autonomy is under attack nationally, and I think it can feel nice to feel like there

spk_0 are places where their perhaps are slightly more protections. But as we have seen with these clinics,

spk_0 I think there are people who are sort of primitively obeying, partly because they may be afraid of

spk_0 losing funding. So I've covered health care for a really long time. And so I feel like I've seen

spk_0 the whole evolution of health care, especially for trans kids over the last decade or decade and a half.

spk_0 Literally 10 years ago, I was following this doctor in Chicago who was opening up one of the very

spk_0 first clinics for trans kids. And he was saying stuff like, I'm a champion of the underdog. He was

spk_0 aggressive about how he wanted to help kids with puberty lockers and hormones and surgeries.

spk_0 Now he's cancelling surgeries, like the same guy who was full-throatedly defending them,

spk_0 not that long ago. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think like there is a big shift.

spk_0 Do you worry this doesn't stop with kids?

spk_0 Yeah, absolutely. They've said that as much. So many politicians have said as much.

spk_0 In prisons all across America right now, they're forcibly due to transitioning people.

spk_0 It doesn't, yeah, it's absolutely not something with children.

spk_0 Today on the show, how the first few months of the Trump administration have turned the trans community.

spk_0 Upside down, no matter where they live. I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to what next.

spk_0 Stick around.

spk_0 To start things off, let's walk through the recent civil rights history for trans Americans.

spk_0 In 2016, Republicans passed H.B. 2 in North Carolina, the so-called bathroom bill.

spk_0 It required people to use a bathroom aligned with the sex on their birth certificate.

spk_0 And it led to a huge backlash. Musical artists canceled tour stops in the state,

spk_0 and the NBA relocated their all-star game. The economic impact was measured to be a loss of 3.46 billion.

spk_0 And for a moment, it felt like the fight for trans civil rights might be ending.

spk_0 But as Republicans made inroads at the ballot box, they continued with their anti-trans crusade.

spk_0 Only now, instead of focusing on bathrooms, they targeted women's sports.

spk_0 Since 2020, 27 states have passed laws that ban transgender people from participating in sports

spk_0 that are consistent with their gender identity.

spk_0 Which I think had a bigger emotional appeal, was this idea of these big, strong men pretending to be women

spk_0 who are hurting women in sports. That I think was a much more provocative and persuasive argument

spk_0 for a lot of people across the country. That legislation led to a domino effect

spk_0 where a lot of people also started really writing about what is big trans doing to our children.

spk_0 Well, it also coincided with much more medical care being available for kids.

spk_0 I don't, I would push back on that.

spk_0 Okay, tell me.

spk_0 Yeah, I think that actually there has been a fair amount of access for trans kids for a while.

spk_0 I think the first clinic is sort of predates a lot of this. A lot of kids were being treated for a

spk_0 long time. Most children who are trans, even now who are getting an amount of treatment,

spk_0 are only receiving hormone replacement therapy or puberty blockers.

spk_0 It's very rare for them to get any kind of reconstructive surgery.

spk_0 I think that has been happening for quite a while for maybe decades at this point.

spk_0 You don't feel like it became more visible around like-

spk_0 I think it became more visible, but I don't think that's the same thing as numbers.

spk_0 I think it became more in the news. I think you had like Lever and Cox, the sort of quote-unquote

spk_0 trans tipping point, where I think it became much more of an issue that people discussed and talked

spk_0 about. But I think for a long time, I think trans people had been existing, but didn't face the

spk_0 same sort of scrutiny. I think it became much more of a political shit storm in 2016, 2017, 2018.

spk_0 So fast forward me a little bit to, I don't know, after 2020, like 2022 or so. I feel like we're in

spk_0 the heart of the quote-unquote debate especially over care for kids. What was happening at the state level?

spk_0 Yeah, I think that is the point that you're talking about where you do start to see the sort of

spk_0 domino effect of stripping away rights both for trans kids, but also employment rights, also

spk_0 discrimination rights. You also see conversion therapy bands start to get lifted. There was a lot of

spk_0 discussion then about is it okay to do a sort of exploratory therapy, gender exploratory therapy

spk_0 instead of doing hormones, which is often a way to try and delay transition for kids until they're

spk_0 18. Does sort of just talk them through things, but it's often just mass. It's conversion,

spk_0 the every sort of mass grading is care. So there's kind of a bunch of different ways that kids and

spk_0 adults start to be targeted, and these legislative issues pass, right? These things start to stack up,

spk_0 right? And you start to see more and more states are adapting a pretty hostile attitude towards

spk_0 trans people, and you slowly start to see a lot of trans families move, right? There have been

spk_0 small to large exodus from Texas or Florida, I know friends who've moved from those states to

spk_0 sort of places like Minnesota or Seattle or New York or LA, right? In the hopes of having a more

spk_0 trans-friendly legislative branch. The attacks from state government, I felt like they were coming

spk_0 in a lot of different ways. There were straight up bans on healthcare for kids in some states,

spk_0 and then there were also things like Texas, the Attorney General deciding to treat

spk_0 parents helping their kids access healthcare as child abusers. And I think it created an

spk_0 environment of hostility. It was really kind of everywhere all at once approach.

spk_0 Yeah, absolutely. There was a really great documentary that recently came out called Just Kids,

spk_0 that sort of examined these parents who were kind of getting it from all sides. Like their doctors

spk_0 were saying, we legally cannot treat your kid anymore. But then if a parent tries to go out of state

spk_0 to get care for their child and get hormones, right, that's sort of now illegal, and that could

spk_0 also be sort of scrutinized in a similar way to how they're trying to criminalize going across

spk_0 state lines for abortion. So eventually the state bans go in front of the Supreme Court,

spk_0 because there are 27 states with bans, it's a lot. And this looked specifically at Tennessee's

spk_0 ban. The case was USV Scrimetti, Scrimetti is the Attorney General of Tennessee. So the decision

spk_0 in Scrimetti, which allowed Tennessee's ban for trans-health care for kids to move forward,

spk_0 I feel like it acted as a catalyst almost for clinics around the country to sort of see that decision

spk_0 and also see the Trump administration empowered and act out of fear. Can you just describe in the wake

spk_0 of that decision and the given the fact that the Trump administration was running the show at DOJ,

spk_0 did it act as a kind of accelerant to clinics around the country? Absolutely. Yes. How so?

spk_0 I think that already before the Scrimetti decision came down, people were terrified of the legal

spk_0 precautions and financial precautions of treating trans kids, even in states like New York and

spk_0 California. And I think that the sort of decision to stop treating trans kids was a sort of attempt to

spk_0 circumvent a loss of funding and to loss of the sort of political scrutiny that they could have

spk_0 faced had they gone on in the current climate. I do think yes, that a lot more clinics will

spk_0 probably close soon. And I also think it's coinciding with an attack on trans-health care with the

spk_0 big beautiful bill that ultimately went back and forth on whether or not it was going to try to ban

spk_0 trans-health care for insurance plans. Ultimately that did not happen. But the House passed this

spk_0 version of the bill that had a ban for trans-health care. I believe for Medicaid recipients.

spk_0 It was for Medicaid recipients, but it would also strip medical care for trans people as a

spk_0 requirement of ACA health plans. So it removed it as a civil right, which had been put in place in

spk_0 the wake of the Affordable Care Act. But then it was stripped from the bill by the Senate.

spk_0 Yes, the final version, yes. When that happened, was it a relief for you? Were you like,

spk_0 few? Dodged. I don't think so. I think that it is very clear that insurance plans can will and

spk_0 could use dropping trans people from their plans as a way to save money. I think there are plenty

spk_0 of Republicans who still would sort of like an act some sort of like austerity on trans-health care

spk_0 as a way to both save money, but also attack bodily autonomy. I think in a similar way, you see

spk_0 hospitals closing wings. That's an easy way to save money if you're on the brink,

spk_0 is to just say we're not going to do that anymore because it's too controversial.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, something that's been happening just over the last few weeks that caught my attention.

spk_0 Was the Department of Justice subpoenaing clinics and doctors,

spk_0 basically accusing people who offer trans-health care of being involved with what the

spk_0 administration is calling female genital mutilation, which is very extreme language.

spk_0 But this seeking of information and records, it was really, it reminded me of what's happening

spk_0 in the migrant community. When it comes to scouring food stamp data and Medicaid data

spk_0 with an explicit goal of identifying people and using that to remove them from the country,

spk_0 now that language is not being used for trans people right now. But I just, all of these things

spk_0 are happening at once. And I think that's where the fear enters in for an observer like myself.

spk_0 Absolutely. I also wrote a piece about the trans passport executive orders. And there was a lot

spk_0 of fear then because there was at first who were like, well, how will they know if, for instance,

spk_0 someone has changed all of their documents? How will they know that I'm trans? And so how could

spk_0 they issue me a passport with an incorrect gender marker? Well, people found out that they were

spk_0 cross-referencing documents with multiple databases in order to decide which

spk_0 gender marker to put on someone's passport. So even people who had potentially had all of their

spk_0 documents changed and updated for years could find themselves getting a passport with an incorrect

spk_0 gender marker. And that's pretty terrifying to be like, oh, there is an amount of surveillance

spk_0 happening here, even if it is dysfunctional and kind of rickshaw that sometimes they are able

spk_0 to sort of identify people who are trans in some sort of a way nationally.

spk_0 We'll be right back after a quick break.

spk_0 It's interesting because you and I started out discussing clinics for trans kids.

spk_0 We're now basically discussing trans adults and trans people more generally.

spk_0 Can you just explain, I know the clinics for trans kids are closing, but maybe

spk_0 talk to me a little bit about how life for trans adults is changing right now.

spk_0 Yeah, I definitely have talked to a lot of people and a lot of people I think are trying to find

spk_0 other sources for hormones. They're trying to find where to plug in in a communal way in a DIY way.

spk_0 Are people looking for care outside of doctors right now?

spk_0 Yeah, absolutely. Is that partially just because you don't want a paper trail?

spk_0 I don't know if it's because necessarily just because you don't want a paper trail. I think it's

spk_0 because you know one stream, one source is gun to shut down. So what you have to sort of prepare

spk_0 for eventuality of like, well, what happens if trans health care at large is illegal across the

spk_0 states. I think people are really considering that possibility right now. And I also think like if

spk_0 your insurance doesn't cover something, you're also going to have to find an alternative way to get

spk_0 care. Because if you can't afford thousands of dollars to pay for something out of pocket,

spk_0 even if there is a doctor who maybe is willing to prescribe something, you're going to have to

spk_0 find a different way. Can you put me inside that right now? Because I'm not inside it. Like,

spk_0 what does that look like? Does that look like Facebook groups? Does that look like meetups in

spk_0 your community? Does that look like a telephone tree? I just don't know.

spk_0 I think no one is talking about that on the record for good reason. DIY HRT has existed for

spk_0 the entire time. But HRT and hormone replacement therapy has happened. And I think we'll continue.

spk_0 And even before the Trump administration, that was something that was certainly happening.

spk_0 But yeah, it's small, it's local. And I think it's tricky.

spk_0 I mean, there was trans health care before there was trans health care writ large, you know?

spk_0 Yeah. What would it mean to go back to the trans health care of the 60s, 70s? I'm not sure

spk_0 how you would frame it. Sometimes people would lie to doctors. They would say that they were

spk_0 intersex in order to get care. Sometimes people would find other trans people sort of living on the

spk_0 street and be like, where are you getting your care and your HRT? Plenty of people got Botox and

spk_0 plastic surgery. And I think that people had to sort of through whisper networks like find these

spk_0 things, which is so much harder, I think, especially if you're isolated.

spk_0 Yeah. Part of what I really appreciate about your writing about the trans community right now

spk_0 is I think you draw this important connection that I don't see being drawn a lot of other places,

spk_0 which is basically that what the trans community is experiencing right now is actually a more

spk_0 extreme version of what's happening generally in this administration. When it comes to surveillance,

spk_0 when it comes to healthcare, can you just explain that connection a bit? Because I think it can be

spk_0 powerful for people. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there is often a way that transness gets

spk_0 to be the sort of abstract or siloed issue. When in reality, I think that the fight for bodily

spk_0 autonomy and material rights is something that all of us are seeking. And I think that that sort of

spk_0 repressive political game that's being played is coming for everyone across the board. I think

spk_0 that the attempt to strip away healthcare from trans people is part of a larger move to

spk_0 to sort of like de-center and get like strip and got healthcare for all. I think like the big

spk_0 beautiful bill is a really good example of that. This attempt to sort of make sure that less and less

spk_0 people are able to get all medicated and less and less people are able to access healthcare.

spk_0 And I think in a similar way, like with surveillance, right? Trans people are really being

spk_0 surveilled in bathrooms and with these passport issues and with like who's going to what doctor?

spk_0 Right? I think that's happening to plenty of people right now across the board. It's happening to

spk_0 immigrants. It's happening to people who are arguing for a free Palestine. It's happening to people who

spk_0 are in stock cop city, right? All of these sort of different movements against political repression.

spk_0 All those are all being heavily surveyed and then tried in court.

spk_0 Yeah, I really see when you look at, for instance, a lot of what RFK juniors doing at the

spk_0 Department of Health and Human Services, when you look at the big beautiful bill so-called,

spk_0 I see this obsession with the natural state of the body and it's the preferred state.

spk_0 Even if that natural state fails you, like you get sick. It's kind of like why wasn't your

spk_0 natural state good enough? I don't know. Like I think people look at, for instance, the maha movement,

spk_0 you know, like, well, it's about things that I agree with, you know, less dyes in food or whatever.

spk_0 But it's about fundamentally something else, which is like stop messing with yourself because

spk_0 you're perfect, but also that might mean that you like die early.

spk_0 You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's nihilistic. Absolutely. There's a sort of like naturalist argument

spk_0 and sort of argument against like changing the body, right? Whether that is like vaccines or

spk_0 surgery or prosthetics or living with a disability, right? All of these things are sort of seen as

spk_0 wrong or like a weak willed or against God or against nature, right? When in reality, I think like

spk_0 that's a really reductive way to think about, to think about health, right? Which is something that,

spk_0 right, is anyone ever really healthy? I think it's a maybe a better framing and that our bodies

spk_0 are quite elastic and change over time and that getting sick or getting ill is like a natural part

spk_0 of life. Yeah. And I think it's scary to sort of say that's eugenics, right? Essentially, that

spk_0 eventually turns into eugenics. This argument like there is one way the body should be, which is

spk_0 untouched, unblemished, right? I think that can quickly change into race science.

spk_0 It's interesting to me that in this moment, the fight over bathrooms is back because it seems to

spk_0 me like we kind of settled it like a decade ago. We decided we didn't want to mess with that. And

spk_0 now all of a sudden, now that we're attacking trans health care, we're slipping in the attacks on

spk_0 bathrooms too. I mean, you can see it in Congress with the idea that somehow translators can't use

spk_0 the bathrooms that align with their gender identity. Why for you is the fight over bathrooms so important?

spk_0 The criminalization of trans people in bathrooms is not just about bathrooms. It's about sort of

spk_0 criminalizing trans people in public space, right? Because if you can't go to the bathroom at your

spk_0 job, if you can't go to the bathroom when you're on the trip, when you're walking around the park,

spk_0 I think that's a pretty scary place to be, if you're like, I have to pee. It's this sort of,

spk_0 you should not have a body, and if you do have a body like this, it should not be here.

spk_0 Go somewhere else. But a lot of people can't go somewhere else. A lot of people need to work.

spk_0 Whether you're a congresswoman or you're a grocery store worker or whoever. I think that to me,

spk_0 it's really a dangerous attack on the ability of people to move in public space.

spk_0 Can I ask a personal question? Sure. How are you doing?

spk_0 I think that being a reporter allows me to have a little bit more of a colder,

spk_0 stoic stance, to sort of try and see where things are. But of course, I'm terrified of losing

spk_0 my healthcare. Of course, I'm terrified. I've been on Medicaid before. A lot of my friends

spk_0 have been on Medicaid and it has been life-saving. And even if currently the big beautiful

spk_0 bull is not taking away our care, it does seem like it's only a matter of time before at least

spk_0 the threat of that comes back. And I know a lot of trans kids and I feel really terrified for them

spk_0 and wish that they were living in a place where they could be safe.

spk_0 Grace, I'm really grateful for your time in your reporting. Thanks for coming on the show.

spk_0 Thank you for having me so much.

spk_0 Grace Byron is a writer who has been covering life for trans-Americans for The New Yorker.

spk_0 If you are liking what you hear in our feed, I just want to encourage you to subscribe to Slate Plus.

spk_0 When you do, you get access to our Superfund Plus only episodes and a whole bunch of others

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spk_0 from our sister show WhatNextTBD. It is right there in our feed, but only if you're a subscriber.

spk_0 It's all about the cold-play kiss cam couple. You know them. You talked about them. Go here,

spk_0 Lizzie O'Leary and 404Media's Jason Kebler arguing about this case. Kebler says the doxing

spk_0 these two got, it should never have happened. To hear more, go to Slate.com slash WhatNextPlus.

spk_0 And that's her show. WhatNext is produced by Paige Osburn, Alana Schwartz, Rob Gunther,

spk_0 Anna Phillips, Ethan Oberman, and Madeline Dusharm. Ben Richmond is the senior director of podcast

spk_0 operations here at Slate. And I'm Mary Harris. Go talk me down on Blue Sky and say, hey, I'm at Mary.

spk_0 Thanks for listening. Catch you back here next time.

From What Next: Trans and Shut Out in Trump’s America

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