Sports
Could Conversion Therapy Return to CO? Plus, the Avs’ Betrayal and Another Diner Gets Bank-ified
In this episode of CityCastDenver, hosts Brie Davies and Producer Paul Corolley discuss a pivotal Supreme Court case challenging Colorado's ban on conversion therapy, a controversial practice out...
Could Conversion Therapy Return to CO? Plus, the Avs’ Betrayal and Another Diner Gets Bank-ified
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Interactive Transcript
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Today on CityCastDenver, the Supreme Court is taking on another Colorado case, this time
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involving conversion therapy, which has been banned here since 2019.
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Plus, we have an update on the future of Peet's University Park Cafe, some surprising news
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about a very famous Colorado and a major grievance with the abs.
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Me and Producer Paul Corolley dig into these stories and answer listener questions about
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a Denverite on Survivor, Mall Madness, and more.
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Today is Tuesday, October 7th.
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I'm Brie Davies, and here's what Denver's talking about.
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Hey Paul.
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Hey, good morning.
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Good morning.
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You know we don't have to talk about right now?
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Our membership campaign.
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It's over.
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Thank you all so much for your support.
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Truly, it's kind of mind blowing.
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You guys really showed up for us and it was so awesome.
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And as a way of saying thank you, that's the last thing we'll say about it.
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Perfect.
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Let's move on.
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Okay.
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Well, you know, I was just out and about in the world this weekend and I went down to the
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Peet's Cafe in D.U.
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Because I wanted to go for one last time because they're closing in November.
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What's the date?
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Do you know the date?
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I think it's the ninth of November.
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Let me double check.
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Probably a moving target.
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Yeah, it kind of looked like they were, I mean they ran other restaurants obviously,
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but it kind of looked like they were at the dregs of certain things like they didn't
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have any more crannels for kids to color with and such.
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And it was packed as usual.
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But I overheard a gentleman in the family talking at the register with the folks in
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front of me about what's going to come next.
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And it is not what we know.
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It's not a restaurant.
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Okay.
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It's a bank.
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And I just got to say after this happened to my favorite diner of all time, the Denver
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diner, I'm really sad.
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I will never go in there again.
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It's not my bank.
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A Denver diner that's now the Chase Bank at Coleson.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Like, that's the thing about Denver.
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We're very good at this diner to bank pipeline.
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You know, this is one of our local traditions.
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We cherish it.
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We're proud of it.
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It sucks so bad.
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It sucks so bad.
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Because I was looking around the diner and this is a comment I've made so many times.
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Diners are this incredible cross section of humanity.
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You see all kinds of people, families, hungover, de-use students.
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There was a whole like girls volleyball team in there.
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You know, it was like, this place is beautiful and this doesn't happen in a lot of places
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anymore.
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And so I'm sad, but I heard the owner being like, man, it's expensive to rent a restaurant.
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What kind of done with this one?
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And so get in there before November if you'd like to still enjoy it as a diner.
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I will say the cross section of humanity thing.
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You can also say that about a bank.
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Every time I go to a bank, there's a lot of different kinds of people there.
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Yeah, I guess.
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I mean, but it doesn't feel communal in the way that a diner is where like, I don't know.
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Foods worse.
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Well, those little candies, they all little candies gross.
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Never been to a bank with a good candy.
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It's sad by myself over here, I guess, that another diner is disappearing.
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I'm sorry for the people.
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Those kinds of places are community hubs.
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It's terrible.
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I mean, I'm sure there were people like the Thursday morning book club.
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I'm not, I don't know that that's a thing, but every place that has one of these.
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Yeah.
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So get there before you can't go there anymore.
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Sadly, some other hot goss we had was, I don't know if it's goss, there was this photo of some
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avalanche players that appeared last week that really ruffled your feathers.
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Not just yours, many people's.
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Well, I actually didn't see as much chatter about this as I thought I would, to be honest.
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But where I first noticed it was why I was watching the Thursday night NFL game broadcast on Amazon Prime
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because I'm a huge football fan and I'll watch the games.
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The Broncos don't even play in now.
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So this is a game between the LA Rams and the San Francisco 49ers.
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The LA Rams, of course, are owned by local billionaire Stan Cronkey, who also,
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in addition to being a massive landowner and property developer, he owns the avalanche,
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the nuggets, the rapids, the mammoth, the he owns Arsenal, the, the, the, the English soccer team.
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But anyway, so you see Cronkey in his box in the game in Sofie Stadium, the stadium he built in LA,
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beautiful brand new football stadium.
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And then you pan, they pan over and you see 20 or so mostly white young men, strong young man.
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And I'm like, wait a second.
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That's the Colorado avalanche.
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And then I'm like, wait a second.
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They're all wearing matching LA Rams uniforms.
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What the hell are they doing?
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Don't they know there's cameras in this place?
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What did you think they should be wearing at a Rams 49ers game?
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I mean, one, why are they there?
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Why are they in LA seeing a football game?
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The Broncos are right here and they're doing great.
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They're in a great season because their boss man invited them and they were, what are they going to say?
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No, I know.
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But that's the actual truth is that it just lays bare that these, these pro sports teams that we
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cheer for, like they have nothing to do with civic pride or civic identity.
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These are companies.
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These are private companies.
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Yeah.
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I would hesitate though.
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I would think maybe I don't know.
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I guess I'm just thinking about Yokech and like, would he do that?
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I don't know if he would.
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No, that's the thing about the nuggets and the avalanche.
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And I'm sure we'll see that this season.
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But they're very beautiful in the way they do crossovers.
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You'll see Yokech go to the avalanche game and it'll put on the Jersey.
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It's too small.
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It's very funny.
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And you'll see it McKinnon go to the nuggets game and it'll put on the Jersey.
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But you don't ever, I will be watching to see if they ever do Bronco stuff.
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Where if it's always within the crunchy empire, that's really true.
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Because that's the Walton Penter group.
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That's the other billionaires in this town.
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Totally different billionaires.
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A bunch of land.
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Yes.
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Well, uh, don't get caught out there.
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Avalanche.
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It was just so lame too.
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It was like all matching jerseys like they had just been given them before the game.
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And none of the guys had a second thought of like, hey, maybe this is not.
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Hey, maybe our fans, maybe you're like 12 year old kid who's coming to the
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avs game and lives in Denver and loves the team and is like, wait, is that maybe
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that doesn't want to see us wearing this?
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We're in a box.
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This rules.
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I don't know if you've ever been in a box seat for anything.
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Paul, it rules.
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It can see where it's nice.
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Mr. K's handing out gluten free pizzas.
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We're all eating slices.
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It's great.
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My four year olds observation of the box when we got to sit in one firm,
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well, it's a truck show was we have our own bathroom.
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Um, and you know, that's how I feel like maybe the avalanche was just like, we're
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in a cool place right now.
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Just say thanks to Mr.
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K move on.
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Enjoy the game.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, I know we, you know, here in Broncos nation, we take that stuff very seriously.
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I got it.
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I got hometown pride, even though I don't understand football.
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So well, let's move on to a big story.
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I mean, it's Colorado in the national spotlight.
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We've got a case coming out of Colorado going in front of the Supreme Court this week.
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What is going on, Paul?
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Um, yeah, I think this is interesting to talk about because Colorado seems to be,
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seems to produce a lot of these cases around these kinds of issues of speech versus
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like our more progressive stances on, you know, queer people.
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It really always involves queer people.
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Yes.
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So this one is about conversion therapy.
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Apparently Colorado is one of more than 20 states with laws prohibiting or banning
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conversion therapy.
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And if that term doesn't mean anything to you, it is sort of a set of psychiatric techniques
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or so-called treatments meant to change or address someone's gender identity or attraction
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to the same sex.
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Obviously, this is a little bit more of a conservative thing.
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Maybe you've heard about these wilderness camps where kids get sent to pray the gay
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away.
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This kind of thing.
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This is all in the conversion therapy milieu.
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Obviously, this has been widely repudiated.
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Most professionals, mental health professionals don't take this seriously, which is why
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Colorado passed a law in 2019 to ban it.
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Well, I was going to say also, I think it's been proven in certain cases to be
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pretty harmful to folks that have experienced convergent therapy often against their will
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because they are minors.
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So just to put that up.
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Yeah.
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No, of course, these treatments, yeah.
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Frequently are known to cause emotional distress, linked to depression, in some cases, suicide.
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Very hard situations.
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But we have this law from 2019 that now is being challenged.
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So there is a case from the springs, a woman named Casey Chiles, or Charles,
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who has a master's degree in clinical mental health from Denver Seminary.
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She's an evangelical Christian.
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She says this law that we have here in Colorado violates her freedom of speech.
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It's so, again, it's so, this is interesting to me.
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What is her, does she have an argument for how this violates her freedom of speech?
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Yeah.
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And this is where the interesting part is to me is like, what are the cases?
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What's the standing?
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Because how these cases work, how most cases get to the Supreme Court is there is a like
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a whole legal apparatus.
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In this case, it's the Alliance defending freedom, which we've heard from before.
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This is a conservative legal organization out of Arizona that comes and finds these
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super specific particular people whose whose stories
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typify their exact complaint with the current laws.
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And so then the Supreme Court, which we know has a very conservative leaning right now,
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is looking for cases to talk about these issues that they care about, although they might not say it this way.
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But then they they'll take a case they choose whether or not to take a case.
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And they are taking a lot of these cases.
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And that's one of these.
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So the standing in this case for for Miss Chiles is this is a quote from the New York Times.
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She says, if an adolescent comes to me and they say, quote, I actually do want to make a goal of coming to terms
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and coming to peace and gaining comfort with my biological sex, we cannot make that goal.
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She is a she is a mental health service provider.
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And she says this law is banning her from providing services to people who want them.
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I just I am skeptical because I feel that generally when we hear about these cases,
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this is not teenagers coming to a therapist, its parents coming to a therapist.
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So I mean, I'm not discounting that this has happened.
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Maybe it has.
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It just feels like such a rare case for when we talk about conversion therapy.
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Again, this is such a touch.
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This involves minors just feels more complicated than if it was adults,
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which is like what we've seen more with the same sex cases that this this alliance defending freedom is taken on.
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The master piece cake shop, Jack Phillips who didn't want to make the cake for the gay wedding.
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The 303 creative website didn't want to do a website design for queer family or queer couple or whatever.
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So this to me is a little bit different, but.
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Yeah, no, the fact that it was like her saying that it was kids coming to her and wanting this treatment,
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wanting to like feeling these what they would maybe say intrusive thoughts, you know,
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about attraction to the same sex people.
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And they want treatment like that's interesting.
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That speaks to me of this maybe there's a culture of this evangelical community in this brings,
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which is, you know, the Colorado story of this is we have we have this great combination.
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I mean, great for the Alliance defending freedom.
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I think of a very progressive state government that has passed a lot of laws that you like advanced people's goals,
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like the LGBTQ community in the last 10, 15 years.
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Basic human rights.
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But then at the same time, we have these pockets of very, very conservative, very Christian people who are,
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who are wanting to, you know, who feel pressured by these laws, who feel oppressed by them in some way.
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Which I find interesting because I think you could still counsel a young person through a situation like this without it having to be conversion therapy.
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But I don't know the ins and outs of this particular situation.
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Well, Mrs. Child says she is not seeking to cure clients of same sex attractions or to change their sexual orientation,
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but only to help patients with their stated goals, which sometimes include seeking to reduce or eliminate unwanted sexual attractions.
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I have a friend who, there's no other, I don't know if there's more modern language or way to say this,
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but he went back in the closet, quote, unquote, two times in his adult life.
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Oh, that's interesting.
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And started dating women again, really pushing himself in a way that as his friends, we were like, what's going on?
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Like, you know, and it was really tough.
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I think a part of it was his faith was very strong in his family and he still was very aligned with his church.
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And he wanted to can for and also culturally, it was not okay for him to be gay and in the culture that he was raised in.
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And I just watched the pain that my friend went through as an adult.
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This is, don't make any of this decision.
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So I'm not saying these are the same things.
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I'm just thinking about what it, I don't know what it could feel like.
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I also am thinking about raising a child and watching the nuances and him exploring or discovering who he is.
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And like, I can't, man, I don't know.
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This is, this is hard because it is such an emotional thing, but it's also we're talking about a court case.
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It's just about how someone can or cannot practice their field, I guess.
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So, and that's her argument.
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I don't know how to parse it.
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Yeah.
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Attorney, when it comes to the legal side, Attorney General Phil Lizer, who I'm pretty sure is going to be arguing this.
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Yes.
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He says that states typically ban repudiated medical practices.
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So this is the legal basis.
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There's this precedent.
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And this is more about professional conduct than speech.
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So that's going to be his argument to the court.
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Okay, his argument is like this is a free speech issue.
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This is a, we need to make sure, we're just regulating industry.
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Okay.
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When it comes to mental health, we need to make sure that if we're giving out licenses to people that they're giving a minimum quality of care.
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That's an interesting argument.
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Again, this also separates this a little bit from those other two cases, I think.
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So it'll be interesting to see how, how scotus argues this.
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Always.
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And sort of takes it apart.
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Interesting.
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Okay, so this next one is great, because this is a great Colorado character, Hunter Estosa.
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Somehow back in the news, 15, 20 years after his passing.
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20 years after his passing.
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Wow.
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Didn't expect to be talking about him today.
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But here we are.
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What's new, Brie?
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So for folks who don't know, Hunter Estosa is sort of one of the purveyors of what is known as Gonzo Journalism.
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I feel like this is such a, I feel like my age group Gen X is sort of the last era of this type of journalism being sort of not controversial, but different.
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So he's known for a style of journalism that centers himself that is not unbiased in any way.
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And many folks will know him more as the character portrayed by Johnny Depp and Fear and Loathing and Las Vegas vision adaptation of some of his work.
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But he also was famous here in Colorado, because he lived in Woody Creek in the 70s.
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I think maybe late 60s, early 70s through to when he passed in 2005.
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And in that time, he also ran for Sheriff of Aspen under the freak power ticket.
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But at any rate, he's in the news, his name is in the news lately, because his
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his his widow has come forward and said, I want his case reexamined.
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He was his his death was ruled as suicide in 2005.
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And it was investigated by the Pitkin County Sheriff's Department in the case was closed.
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And she wants it to be reopened by the Colorado Bureau of investigation and be reinvestigated.
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So do we know any what do we know about the details of his passing?
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Well, he again, he died by suicide.
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It was he shot himself in his home.
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Apparently his his his widow was on the phone with him when this happened.
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His son and his yeah, his son, his daughter in law and his grandchild were on the premises when this happened as well.
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And as far as what they're what they've said is that there it's still being nothing new has come to light.
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Basically is what the sheriff's department has said in the case is still being ruled a suicide.
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But what if I'm interesting was that sky high news and grand county reported that
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Picking County Sheriff Michael Booglione said Anita has a hunterous Thompson's widow came to him earlier this year.
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And that quote, there were concerns.
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The concerns were not about the original investigation as much as she's been hearing from
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say friends and possibly relatives about hunters demise.
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He said that in speaking with her it was difficult to understand the exact
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concerns as she was speaking to him so quickly.
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But then he said she just found out something that is life changing for her.
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And then there's no other information.
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We don't know what those life I know it was I looked at four different
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reporting of this to see if there was
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something and that was as he basically was like I'm not going to speak for her.
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You'll have to talk to her.
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So he suggested that she take this case to the CBI then for a new perspective on the information.
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And they're so backlogged with sexual assault cases.
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They're moving this to the top of the list.
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I mean that's all I know about the CBI right now.
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I know.
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It's been a shambles for years and now it was so shocking that they would take this on.
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This is that's one of those unfortunate like to high profile cases get more attention.
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Yes absolutely.
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So as far as we know nothing has changed but
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something that apparently his widow has heard has made her think that this needs to be re-investigated.
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What do you think about 100th St. Thomas Legacy in Colorado?
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I can't say that I think about it much to be honest with you.
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Again I think I'm a little bit young to be I was never super invested in his work as much as
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I came from the School of Journalism that Alt Weekly World
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is where I learned to write my my Hunter S Thompson was Lester Banks who other
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people who music people will know is like the Hunter S Thompson of music writing.
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So I know why he was such a big figure and outsized figure in writing.
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I don't know if that's ever translated to me as something super connected to Colorado.
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Although again he ran for office essentially.
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Yes.
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Which made him an interesting character.
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What do you think about this Paul?
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Oh well I don't I felt the same way.
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I was always kind of put off by the whole vibe growing up never really for me.
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But when we were doing the Lauren Bobert project I thought about it a lot because once I real
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once I heard the story that he was ran for sheriff at Pitch and County I was like oh that's not
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so far from rifle.
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Charlie.
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And then I started to see parallels because Lauren Bobert has become this politician who
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who owns her own platform as a social media figure.
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And isn't that the final conclusion of the process that Hunter S Thompson began?
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When he first put himself into the narrative and decided the journalism could not be objective
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it must be subjective.
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It was this series of events that went through the 24 hour news cycle that went through the onset
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of the social media age.
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Every person is their own publisher is their own platform is their own brand.
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And Lauren Bobert then is here we are.
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The personal is the political the political is the personal.
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So I was kind of interested in exploring that we never quite got to it but I did find it
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fascinating that his whole sheriff campaign like I read I remember reading about the freak power
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movement and Aspen a great Colorado story that has yet to be fully told in my opinion.
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And we should before the people all those people pass.
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But I hit one of the things that he ran against was development.
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He hated change.
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Hunter S Thompson was one of the original nimbies.
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He came from San Francisco from Big Sur where he was living with hippies in the 60s.
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He did this big project with the Hells Angels.
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Then he moved to Aspen and he was like all these millionaires and billionaires are trying
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to change Aspen and this little town used to be something special.
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Like when I showed up and was like all right Hunter S Thompson like okay sure.
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Yeah that is funny I didn't think about that transition from him embedding in the hate with
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the with the Hells Angels with hate and hate aspirated screaming and then moving there and that is
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that's such a call that is such a Colorado thing to do too is like I came to this tiny place
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and I like it tiny the way I found it that's how it should stay forever.
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Exactly how it should stay never mind what was happening before this that led to this that
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like Western I mean we could go on and on but that's an interesting parallel Paul I never
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thought about that I really I really only thought of I just he's so ingrained in me and the
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journalism world is like this is the type of person that created the thing that like you said I
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went on I went through that exact I lived through the internet of blogging yeah and creating your own
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platform and doing these things and telling your story yourself but I never thought about it in
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the political world and how the eventual outcome is the Lauren Boebert's of the world.
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I mean think about how she got famous for owning the lips for talking talking about how
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mainstream media is so biased I hate it so biased because everything's all they just hate
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concerns right and everybody does this of course oh everybody on all sides but this is the
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Hunter S Tom Sifai this is what he was rebelling against was the yeah unbiased reporting I hate
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always like be like what would it be like if he was still here but I do think about figures like
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him how they would participate in this current state in the world tonight I always think he
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would probably be disappointing I would like I would like to invite I would I would 100% be
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disappointing I would like to invite everybody with rose colored glasses when it comes to
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Hunter S Tom Sifai please revisit his books read his books I read I tried to read fear and loathing on
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the campaign trail 72 last year yeah and I was it's it's the the man did not he did not respect
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people who are different from him yeah there's a lot of racism in these books it is not nice and sexism
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Hunter S Tom Sifai as much as he was like a pioneering figure in some ways he was also very stuck in
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the past no and you're touching on something that I think I didn't really want to say out loud which
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is I knew a lot of young men who idolized this writer and as a young writer in the 90s I didn't see
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a lot of women doing those same kinds of things so I was like following again Lester Banks is a very
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similar situation he's not quite as racist but but yes it's a type it's almost an archetype in my
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generation so something to think about for sure well we'll be watching to see what maybe Anita
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Thompson found out I would love to know what how that turns out and he is undeniable I mean it's
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it's worth a real deeper dive on like who this guy really was what happened to him well and his
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influence was yeah I was gonna say how he shaped a lot of journalism especially the Rolling Stone era
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and the the Playboy era and these things that are so long gone or so far from where we are now but
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yeah absolutely we'll put a link to his article he wrote a 1970 article called the Battle for
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Aspen or the Battle of Aspen about it was not it was before he ran for Sheriff it was when he was
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helping out with someone's mayoral campaign and it was all about the same like housing density
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development and mime fears all of it's a really good article and I think it's I mean he wrote the
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Hell's Angels book and then he went and did this and it was good it was before he melted his brain
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oh yeah I just keep going back to this edge lord thought these edge lord conversations these guys
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that think they're so radical and they're like you can't build here that's your radical taken
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I mean he thought some stuff about like smoking weed in public too right it wasn't just no but
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that is an interesting corner of of that conversation okay well it's Tuesday and we love to hear
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from you we've heard we've gotten so many great comments and and conversation continuations from
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you all in the last couple of weeks in particular and uh what do we have Paul this time let's start
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with a quick one here from Aaron W who writes hasty cast enough of the love is blind coverage
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there's a Denver right on survivor would love for you guys to cover him this is Aaron W I love that
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Aaron W okay I'm gonna look up put the Denver right I was gonna say I feel I never want have you
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watched survivor it's survivor is one of those things where like when I first came out I was like
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wow that sounds so cool and then I never watched it and I've always had in the back of my head
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that someday when I'm old I'm gonna go through every season I'm gonna get really into it because
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I think I would like it I feel that apparently the guy's name is Stephen Rahm the Denver right who is
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a aren't any Stephen Rahm fans send us your cool cool back stories or what we need to know about
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this guy give us the gossip do you know Stephen in real life also sorry Aaron W this is not
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enough of love is blind we will be talking more about love is blind yeah because it's super fun and
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it's getting weirder okay let's do another one this is from Gretchen from Westwash Park Gretchen
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writes I think remote workers who rather be in the office are a myth I only know of one even those
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who live in studio apartments if you work for a company of any size there was no there were no
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negotiations if you work for a CEO who demanded in office work I think it's a fantasy of quote here's
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a nice mall therefore so she's referring to the mayor bought the pavilions last week or wants to buy
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city council has to approve I think it's a fantasy of here's a nice mall therefore remote workers
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will suddenly want to take R.T.D. and commute two hours each day from Thornton slash Arvada slash
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Centennial to be in the office. Bre what do you think is that a yes I'm with I am with Gretchen on
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this one because again before this before the pandemic I worked in an office that was hybrid already
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and I remember my boss Brad Seagull has been on the show many times saying I'm a weird old Boomer and
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I love to be in the office but I know not everybody feels this way and he was very aware that most of us
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did enjoy the ability to work from home most of the time and I I'm just with Gretchen that I don't
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I don't know if any of these bells and whistles they're trying to add to the 60th Street Mall are
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going to change the fact that someone's commute is two hours or you know or that they've already
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acclimated their lives over the last few years to the work from home whether that's their kids child
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cares you know like there's just all these factors I'm with you what do you think I want to just
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respond to one piece of this Gretchen said if you work for a company of any size there were no
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negotiations if you work for a CEO who demanded an office work I agree that's probably not how anyone
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would do it the CEO would just say hey the end of remote work is happening but what you can do is
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what you can do in the same situation as if you're trying to negotiate better rent for yourself
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cheaper rent you can go find another similar job that you think you're qualified for that you
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could get and then show your boss that there is a better option for you out there and that they will
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then feel pressure to keep you and give you concessions that's how these negotiations work in any
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economy I just feel like people are really holding on tight to their jobs right now because things
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are uncertain I'm just thinking about what city workers just went through for instance and this is
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why the pressure exists because the the balance of power has shifted the CEO always has more power
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but now more than ever I know this is how you do it is the negotiation has to start with you
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because they're just going to tell you what to do and you can say yes or no you can quit if you want
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but if you can go find another job you think you could get or a bunch of other jobs with better pay
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better perks show your boss yeah I mean I don't know I'm with I'm just I'm just here with Gretchen
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on this I'm going to die on this hill I don't think there's people out there and yeah you may not
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get that choice I'm also thinking about the offices we've been in and they're really people are
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not necessarily coming back but also the places where we've been I don't think it's a requirement
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it's very different when it's a requirement so but we'll see how this purchase of a mall on the mall
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does or does not do for Denver yeah I think people are eager to hear more of your thoughts when
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you're ready to share them yeah yeah I've lots of thoughts about it because I watched the buildup
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thing and it's it's part of a long line of indoor outdoor malls the trend sometimes they're built
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to be all indoors sometimes they're built to be all outdoors so what Denver does with that I
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don't I'm curious we'll see we'll see again as always we love to hear from you give us a call on the
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city cast Denver hotline always open 720 500 541 8 you can text us on that line as well or send us an
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email Denver at citycast.fm about any previous episodes any conversations anything that you want
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to share with us Paul welcome to a membership free campaign free week thank you all for your support
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we really appreciate you guys so much thanks
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more news from around the city see ya mal madness the greatest board game ever played