Campus talks: How to unlock motivation and beat procrastination in your students and yourself

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 We're listening to a Times Higher Education podcast.

spk_0 Hello and welcome to Campus Talks, the podcast in which we seek advice for those working in higher education

spk_0 from those working in higher education.

spk_0 I'm Miranda Prin, Campus Editor.

spk_0 And today we are discussing motivation and how to engender it in your students and yourself.

spk_0 Motivation must be a great thing to study because it is something everyone wants to know more about.

spk_0 For most of us it's largely let's be honest in the hope we'll find some magic solution that generates a never-ending supply

spk_0 so that we never need face those days when everything feels like a slog or indeed do battle with our inner procrastination wants to ever again.

spk_0 But for lecturers and other university educators they also need to find ways to keep hundreds of students interested and engaged for months or even years of study.

spk_0 It's a tough gig. But as with all things, knowledge is power and there are motivational principles that can help as we're about to learn.

spk_0 Today we speak to two academics who research and teach to get their insights and practical advice on boosting and sustaining motivation in the classroom and in your own personal or professional endeavors.

spk_0 First I talk to Ian Taylor who is a reader in motivational science at Loveborough University, an associate fellow and chartered psychologist of the British Psychological Society and the author of a new book published this year, Time Hacks, the Psychology of Time and how to spend it.

spk_0 We discuss the role of educators in helping students develop intrinsic or better quality motivators for learning, the role of emotions and of course procrastination.

spk_0 My colleague Eliza sat down with Helen Asselli, a professor of clinical education and assistant dean of academic program development at the USC Rossier School of Education at the University of Southern California.

spk_0 Now with almost 20 years teaching experience, Helena is an expert in educational psychology including motivation, time management and the social factors that influence learning.

spk_0 She is also co-author with Myron H. Dembo of Motivation and Learning Strategies for College Success, a focus on self-regulated learning.

spk_0 And in this conversation Eliza and Helena delve into the factors that drive student motivation, they also look at how self-regulation varies between students and how it can be supported by educators and perhaps now by AI tools, fascinating stuff.

spk_0 But first, over to Ian.

spk_0 Hi Ian, thanks for joining me on campus talks.

spk_0 Hi Miranda, thanks for inviting me.

spk_0 Now you've been studying motivation for more than 20 years having done your PhD on motivation educational settings.

spk_0 So I just wondered what motivated you to study motivation.

spk_0 I was interested in physical education and how to get people who were interested and engaged in physical education.

spk_0 How could we transfer that motivation to post schools?

spk_0 And then slowly over time, sport and PE was deemphasized and I got really interested in motivation because it's a hugely complicated area and a really interested area in all walks of life.

spk_0 Yes, motivation is one of those subjects of universal interest because we're all looking at ways to boost it in ourselves, potentially in those around us, just simply to get stuff done.

spk_0 So looking at education, specifically higher education.

spk_0 I think for lots of people teaching the basic principles of how to motivate students are relatively well known.

spk_0 I mean, there's a lot of talk around you've got to make it interesting and fun enough that it does not require loads and loads of willpower on the part of the students to study your subject.

spk_0 That's easy enough to understand. I'm just interested given that you do also teach alongside your research.

spk_0 If you can give any pointers on how that can be achieved, especially when most lecturers are faced with cohorts of very diverse students.

spk_0 Motivation was quite a relatively simpler topic 10, 15 years ago because education was a simpler world.

spk_0 Whereas now there's quite a few challenges with motivation, one of them being the technological advances and then there's an ever increasing obsession with grades.

spk_0 So there's various motivational principles and how you apply those principles may differ depending on each individual.

spk_0 For example, a generalized principle is that you need to provide value in your teaching to motivate students.

spk_0 But what that value is to each individual student or differ.

spk_0 And you'll end up tearing your hair out if you try to promote 150 different values to 150 different students.

spk_0 What your role is, I think, is to try and get them to discover their own value of the content that you're teaching.

spk_0 So explaining or highlighting to them how the content that you're teaching is relevant for them or relevant to people that they might know, relevant to different populations.

spk_0 Or how the content that you're teaching might solve a problem.

spk_0 You can't force value onto students, but you can sort of help them discover their own personal value.

spk_0 And another way value comes into the concept is that these technological advances are really easy for students to engage with.

spk_0 So if you've got a lecture in person and you simply record that lecture and it's available on demand for them at home and there's no difference, then you have no added value for them to come to that lecture.

spk_0 So quite a lot of lecturers and people working in higher education always think about, you know, why aren't students turning up anymore?

spk_0 Or why would they, you know, if I had an opportunity to sit at home and watch a lecture or have a shower and go to the lecture there and see exactly that have exactly the same experience, then I would take the first option.

spk_0 And I think it's naive of us to think that that would be any different. So we have to provide added value if we want physical problems on seats.

spk_0 I mean, it's a very good point generally as humans, it's not just students, we will take the easier option if the outcome as far as we can see it is going to be the same.

spk_0 So that added value you refer to, for instance, to get bombs on seats, what might that look like?

spk_0 For example, in my own teaching, if there's a real sort of discursive element that happens in the lecture where you really start talking and discussing and evaluating and debating an idea, the skeleton lecture content is recorded and available online, but there's added value to going to the lecture because you get this discursive element to it equally.

spk_0 If you've got a section where peers and students are discussing content within each other, hopefully they'll get added value from that.

spk_0 And typically those types of things don't get recorded. Added value the easiest way is it enhances that learning, enhances their understanding of the ideas that you're trying to convey.

spk_0 And sometimes that needs to be highlighted explicitly, you know, quite often you're giving them added value, but they might not realize it's added value.

spk_0 And so you know, you can be quite explicit if there will be added sections that happen in person that I think will add value to your learning and help you understand the concept.

spk_0 And then it's their choice between, okay, is that added value sufficient for me to put my full monocene.

spk_0 Yeah, interesting. You alluded earlier to the fact that grades and the motivational drive that they provide is a complicating factor in all this.

spk_0 So I wondered if you could expand on that a little and perhaps explain what you see as the different types of motivation or what you might refer to as different quality motivators.

spk_0 There's a nightmare phrase for a lot of lecturers that students say and it's something along the lines of will we be assessed on this lecture.

spk_0 And so they just want to know whether they need to turn up and that topic might be an essay question.

spk_0 And that's an example of a really poor quality motivation and it's not really the students for is probably the culture that we bring them up in and educate them.

spk_0 One of the early things that I learned in my PhD was motivation isn't a single construct.

spk_0 It's different types of motivation that vary in their quality.

spk_0 Most people know the different between intrinsic and extrinsic.

spk_0 Intrinsic is doing it for the for the love of it. So you know turning up to lectures just because you love the content and are really interested in it.

spk_0 That's intrinsic motivation and that's typically perceived to be high quality.

spk_0 For example, doing it for personal value, you get why you're there.

spk_0 It might be psychology is my area. So I'm studying psychology because I want to be a psychologist.

spk_0 So it's not necessarily for a reward or punishment but you see the value in why you're doing it.

spk_0 And then you've got really poor quality motivations doing it for grades is the classic one because it promotes really superficial learning and only learning the bits that are.

spk_0 So we can try and shift students towards the sort of higher end.

spk_0 The better quality end of that continuum and you know I'm not saying that all students need to love and be really interested in the content.

spk_0 But we certainly can promote the value of it. But again it's got to be a personal value to them.

spk_0 As part of that you've talked about the fact it can sometimes be very helpful to be fairly explicit about the value of the content.

spk_0 So you've had depending on the scenario given that we are speaking in September just as students start filing in for a new academic year.

spk_0 How important is the start of the year or the start of a course in setting motivation levels and trying to communicate the value of studying hard.

spk_0 Where do you see that sitting in this puzzle?

spk_0 The beginning is important and it isn't.

spk_0 So it is important because you need to set expectations, you need to set a structure, you need to have clarity.

spk_0 So one as well as value really powerful pre-cursor to good quality motivation is competence.

spk_0 If people feel competent at what they're doing then they will remain motivated or they're more likely to remain motivated.

spk_0 And for them to feel competent they need structure that they need to know how they improve.

spk_0 So they need to know when their assessments are and what the style of feedback will be.

spk_0 So that beginning phase is really important for that setting the expectations, setting the boundaries, setting the structure.

spk_0 So just to jump in there what you're saying is essentially you need to give students the tools to self-direct to know what they need to do to achieve what they want and that has to happen at the start.

spk_0 Absolutely that's exactly what I'm saying.

spk_0 On the flip side typically motivation is highly is of highest quality at the beginning.

spk_0 So you've got a willing crowd there.

spk_0 So in that sense it's not so important because the motivation is there.

spk_0 All the longitudinal studies that I've seen whether it be over a semester, over an academic year, over a few years in education, in sport,

spk_0 motivation typically declines in quality over that time period.

spk_0 So that's your problem.

spk_0 Your problem is not the motivation at the beginning.

spk_0 And now they also add on that your problem is not really the motivation at the end because there might be some assessments at the end.

spk_0 So they're being engaged with the topic or they get into their goals are coming to a fruition at the end.

spk_0 But it's that middle bit is that decline that you need to try to prevent.

spk_0 And partly there's natural decline because people get tired of fatigue, it's routine, it's you know the enthusiasm and the novelty dissipates.

spk_0 So a little bit of that is natural in America they have a term called the sophomore slump which is essentially the second year of a three year degree let's say.

spk_0 The first year is novel exciting third year is is is is meaningful and important is that middle you've gone far enough down the tunnel that you can't see the light behind you but you can't yet see the light in in front of you.

spk_0 So that is where you really need to focus on those middle bits promoting the value promoting the interest you know you might want to put the really interesting topics in the middle for example.

spk_0 If you're the type that tries to embed fun in your lectures you know it's really the middle sections the middle content that you really want to focus on.

spk_0 Yeah so it's like a curve from what you describe.

spk_0 In terms of then keeping motivation up in that middle section and the value that you've got to communicate is there a big role or a big link with emotions in all this.

spk_0 You raise a really interesting sort of motivational principle I guess in that one of the major functions of emotions are to motivate if you if you boil motivation down to a simplest prison people will go towards things they enjoy and love and make them feel good and avoid things that have negative emotions.

spk_0 So this is this is probably really tricky to do for lectures but if you can and if you can give students a positive emotional experience for joining your lectures and learning then that will be super powerful.

spk_0 They will come back and they will be engaged and I when I talk about fun and positive experience and stuff quite often people think that it's going to be funny or humorous.

spk_0 And that will help but it doesn't have to be you could just make them feel good in other ways but yeah emotional aspects are really important and they're quite often undermined because people think that emotions are associated with you know irrational judgments irrational behaviors and they are to some extent equally they serve a perfectly normal function in that they motivate.

spk_0 So actually now you've laid it out of course it makes total sense that emotions are completely intertwined with motivation because that's I guess why an evolutionary terms we're programmed to respond to certain things in certain ways isn't it.

spk_0 In terms of the positive feelings I mean as you point how it doesn't have to be fun and jokes like being challenged and working through something and finding a solution something can in itself feel incredibly positive so I guess from a teaching perspective that maybe makes things a bit easier.

spk_0 What is the impact of AI on all this.

spk_0 I suppose where I'm starting from is it's not going to go away so anyone who's I could it bands AI or any related tech are going to eventually come to a dead end I think so so AI in generative AI is here to stay so rather than seeing it as a problem for motivation which you could perceive it that way or you could use generation.

spk_0 So I think that's a very positive idea yourself in trying to help motivation so can you use AI to develop some sort of feedback mechanism or some sort of learning content rather than rather than having to read a research paper can you provide it in a different format so I think lecturers and people in high education need to start thinking about using thinking of it as an opportunity.

spk_0 I mean it occurs to me talking about gen AI in this context you'd describe the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation earlier.

spk_0 And the fact that what educators need to be working towards is building the intrinsic motivation associated with their courses for students in a perfect world where they've done that brilliantly then students won't want to use gen AI for the wrong reasons because they'll want to use it to be.

spk_0 So I think it's a very good idea to learn rather than to avoid learning exactly.

spk_0 Are there any pedagogical or course design tricks that you would point to that you do for a really boost motivation.

spk_0 There's real big problems with over assessment but I think we could build in signals of their understanding throughout and maybe a generative AI is a solution or some other technology is a is a solution there.

spk_0 As I said before competence is a really sort of powerful precursor of motivation if you're feeling competent or something you're halfway there to sort of sustain in the long term.

spk_0 And so can we use technology to give them more indicators that they do understand and their learning that would be a pretty good starting point and be more explicit about the value of the module.

spk_0 If you can't demonstrate a really meaningful value for your module then why why are we teaching it to students.

spk_0 That makes sense what you're describing if I translate it out of an education setting that competence you refer to being able to track your improvements or your understanding I mean charting progress.

spk_0 There's a reason that we're all addicted to I don't know exercise apps that show us how fast we run X amount of distance compared to two weeks ago or you know these things where you can chart your progress in any walk of life.

spk_0 What you're describing is almost like an educational version of that.

spk_0 Absolutely and well while you were talking there I couldn't help thinking about Juelingo.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 The language and your progression cannot be clearer.

spk_0 You know it's even tired to official sort criteria of language learning and things like that.

spk_0 So I'm not saying we should copy Juelingo but learning about the principles that they use would be would be pretty useful and ever I think.

spk_0 Now let's turn to your recent book Time Hacks.

spk_0 This is as the name suggests very much focused on how we can all optimize our use of our time and I think anyone will begin to learn more on this subject.

spk_0 So just to provide a broad outline what role does time and our perception of it play and motivation.

spk_0 It's fundamental to loads of motivational processes.

spk_0 For example our motivation is really really flaky in that if I ask you and I'm going to dip outside of education settings.

spk_0 If I ask you will you be healthy next week you know will you go to the gym everyone looks ahead and sees an ideal version of themselves.

spk_0 So yeah of course I'll be healthy of course I'll exercise next week.

spk_0 But then when you come to that moment your motivational and emotional state are completely different.

spk_0 And so if you look well into the future you're motivated about really virtuous healthy noble reasons.

spk_0 Whereas in the immediate term you're motivated by satisfying basic needs for rest to relieve stress to eat and so forth.

spk_0 Another one is willpower typically willpower declines over the course of the day.

spk_0 So thinking that you're going to rely on willpower if you finish or I've got a six o'clock lecture this semester at 4 till 6 pm.

spk_0 So you know if I think I'm going to rely on my willpower to go to the gym after my 6 pm lecture then I'm sadly mistaken I think.

spk_0 So willpower declines over time.

spk_0 Motivational inertia it's the effort to start a task is much greater than to continue it.

spk_0 Motivational inertia sounds like the smarter symbolic of procrastination.

spk_0 I'm sure I speak for many listeners when I self identify as a procrastinator.

spk_0 I would say this has improved immensely with age but I think virtually everyone has a bit of procrastinating in them.

spk_0 So what advice can you offer to all those listening on how to break out of this feast or famine approach to time?

spk_0 We all know what goal setting is and the general consensus is that you should set challenging goals but I think for procrastination especially the goal is probably too big.

spk_0 So you need to make tiny tiny tiny goals for example if you're a student example that you've got an essay to do and you've given your essay and the deadline in 11 weeks, 12 time or whatever.

spk_0 And if your mind is thinking about the essay that's a huge goal and some people will say okay so you've got to break it down.

spk_0 Okay yes you have got to break it down so you break it down or two okay well it's 1500 words I'll write 100 words.

spk_0 But what I'm arguing is that goal of 100 words is still too big.

spk_0 You have to include all the pre tasks that need to be done before starting those 100 words.

spk_0 So your goal should be to open the laptop nothing more.

spk_0 And then once you've opened the laptop you've overcome that motivational inertia so it's much easier now to start thinking okay well actually the laptop's there let's start scribbling or well typing 100 words.

spk_0 So if procrastinators out there set really really tiny goals and the same again the same for I'm going to give an exercise example going for a jog.

spk_0 Let's say if you're aiming to do a 5k park run and so your goal is 1 kilometer that 1 kilometer is still way way way way too big.

spk_0 So you need to focus all your motivational efforts on putting your trainers on and then you need to focus on your motivation as I'm getting out the door.

spk_0 And once you've got out the door you're probably going to go for a jog and so it's tricking your mind into what the task is and trying to sort of break it down into really really good.

spk_0 So it's really tiny chunks that just get the ball going and once it's going it becomes a lot easier to complete the actual goal there 100 words the 1 kilometer run or whatever.

spk_0 That's great advice and I have to say it really times because I actually play a kind of mind trick on myself to get myself running which I do enjoy hugely but sometimes as we all know the motivational inertia that you refer to or laziness and might be taking over.

spk_0 And I play my game where I just say just go out and run you can run for like a minute and if you want to stop just stop and of course you're inevitably actually carry on.

spk_0 Perfect. So what changes have you made to your daily schedule since researching and writing this book since you talk about how motivation wanes throughout the day.

spk_0 Have you tweaked the way you go about your work and life?

spk_0 Yeah, because I sort of learned a lot when I was writing the book one of the one of the things that I was researching anyway was doing important things in the early in the day.

spk_0 You know I talked about before we'll power to climb over the day it's not just that it's when humans are not very good at predicting how we're going to feel later whenever later is.

spk_0 So getting things done early in the day and I want to emphasize this is personally important things as well things that things that nourish your soul do them first do them early because if they're not urgent let's say but they're personally important.

spk_0 If you leave them to get there you your your work commitments which are urgent your family commitments which are urgent and your obligations will overtake them and you won't have the time or energy to do those nourishing activities.

spk_0 Certainly when you're starting to be new new hobby for example do them as early as you possibly can I think I've really taken that on board.

spk_0 Another one is a solitude spending time in solitude is a good one and in the book I talk about how terrifying solitude is is for some people but if you can overcome that terror then spending a bit of time in solitude really has some good benefits some good motivational benefits and you start to naturally plan and get creative.

spk_0 So I try to get some solitude where I can so that there's lots of other little differences the micro goals one I use a lot more now certainly for the right in the book when I dreaded having to write some of the book just getting the laptop open was was a good way to overcome that.

spk_0 Your point that you should do the things that really nourish you first and early I think for a lot of people in academia whose time is extraordinarily stretched often with their professional duties that's a fantastically pertinent piece of advice that you know get get those things that don't see margin in a way done first because the things are urgent you will get done later.

spk_0 Well look in there's loads of fantastic takeaways there for anyone both in high education and indeed elsewhere so thank you so much for talking to me today.

spk_0 Thanks for having me really good.

spk_0 As I said at the end of that conversation there are so many useful practical pointers to take away there but the one that really sticks with me was Ian's point that one must do the best.

spk_0 The most important tasks first but these are not necessarily the most urgent and that was interesting because it seems to fly in the face of how most of us manage our time which is of course to prioritize the most urgent tasks.

spk_0 His advice on breaking work or tasks down into tiny micro goals really mirrors advice that you'll also hear from our next guest Helen Sully who again is a rich source of insight on this topic so let's hear more.

spk_0 Helen and welcome to the campus talks podcast.

spk_0 Great to be here thank you.

spk_0 Theories and science behind motivation have long informed your work as a professor of clinical education.

spk_0 When I think about motivation it seems like such a familiar term but actually it's quite complicated bringing in things like self regulation confidence individual drivers whether that's reward or consequence.

spk_0 But let's start with some foundations speaking about college students how do the internal and external factors that affect them drive their motivation to learn.

spk_0 Absolutely yes so when we think about internal factors we definitely think about things like personal interests their goals their reasons for doing things which we call task value as well as their confidence.

spk_0 And their intrinsic values so also values such as you know sustainability financial stability you know respect for diversity or what not.

spk_0 But the external factors then are the grades the expectations of their parents are their caregivers as well as social recognition and pay right ultimately how rewarding is this career not in terms of intrinsic.

spk_0 Or internal factors but also the external contributors such as pay and prestige etc so we know that external factors can are strong you know motivators of extrinsic motivation which are very effective short term because they really spur you to take action etc.

spk_0 But really in order for students to carry them on long term they have to become internalized or ideally I should say they become internalized because if one is is impacted solely by external factors the interest may erode over time.

spk_0 We know that students who are primarily driven by internal factors again primarily not solely but primarily driven by internal factors are much more likely during their college years to engage in what we call meaningful learning versus wrote learning and we know that meaningful learning really contributes to encoding much more effectively into long term memory and through that you know really supporting learning long term.

spk_0 In your textbooks of motivations and strategies for college success there is quite a bit of discussion of self regulation.

spk_0 What is the relationship between self regulation and achievement and success through higher education.

spk_0 Self regulation is critical self regulation is really sort of the planning the monitoring and the evaluation of learning so from soup to nuts so to speak how do you approach learning how do you engage in learning while you're learning and then how do you look back at what you learned and we know that self regulation is strong.

spk_0 And wrongfully correlated with academic achievement self regulation includes things such as goal setting time management ability to combat procrastination tendencies and and very critically the concept of medical mission or what we call thinking about thinking so constantly sort of being aware and fully awake of your please and fully engaged in the learning process rather than sort of passive learning where your thoughts are.

spk_0 Often somewhere else and you you think you're engaged in learning but you're really not so again students who set clear goals use more meaningful learning strategies as we talked before and reflect on their outcomes and really say was my threat was my strategic approach appropriate.

spk_0 If my exam is based on recall as in producing short answers rather than recognition which is often manifested in sort of multiple choice exams or quizzes am I studying effectively for the type of you know test the assessment that the instructor will use because.

spk_0 Studying for recall versus recognition is different so if you're not so fragulated you may use sort of an ineffective learning strategy to prepare for the type of assessment that will happen.

spk_0 And so again we know that self regulation helps learners to to adapt to the learning needs to persist through challenges and distractions and we know how distracting the calling and college environment can be there's you know wonderful opportunities to engage in extracurricular activities and so self regulation enables you to sort of prioritize.

spk_0 Keep your focus on things that are both important and urgent and through that really optimize achievement and performance.

spk_0 It's just sounding a lot like the self regulation is what we think of as motivation actually that ability to open another book answer another question go and seek some some more answers is this ability in trinsic or is it something.

spk_0 That can be taught.

spk_0 Now that's a great question so there's definitely what we know is there's a developmental trajectory to this and students particularly freshmen as they enter college they are shifting from a predominantly teacher caregiver parent control if you please or certainly directed situation to an entirely self regulated context.

spk_0 So we know that self regulation is linked to the prefrontal cortex in our brains which governs our planning or decision making and very very importantly in the context of self regulation impulse control and we know that it develops a gradually through childhood added and adolescence and indeed continues into adulthood which is right right the time where our college students are.

spk_0 So the college period really tests it and also provides opportunities to strengthen sort of the maturation of the prefrontal cortex.

spk_0 There's also some aspects of self self regulation that may be a little bit temperamentally influenced such as those who tend to be a little bit more perhaps emotionally reactive may have a little bit more difficulty in managing their impulses.

spk_0 But with that said self regulation is highly highly teachable so instruction in goal sign time management just the awareness or the awareness of students of the importance of medic ignition thinking while you're thinking can significantly improve students ability to regulate their learning and let's face it we all have tendencies to progress.

spk_0 I know I do but there are strategies to identify why we procrastinate and also strategies to combat our procrastination tendencies which I sometimes you know have to use on a weekly if not sometimes on a daily basis when faced with unpleasant or difficult tasks that I'd rather not engage in you know I still have to lean into my okay what strategy what do I have in my toolbox to

spk_0 overcome this and self regulate.

spk_0 So for when this can be such a powerful tool definitely and especially when it comes to procrastination I'm not entirely sure that knowing that I procrastinate makes me so much better at not doing it but I would like to think so.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 Is there any difference there and you talked about life stages a bit and develop me know in sexual development.

spk_0 The university sector has got a wider range of of students a lot of non traditional students coming in who might be a bit a bit older starting their studies when you're teaching these kinds of strategies are there different considerations that you need for say non traditional students as for your typical 18 year old undergrad.

spk_0 Yeah it's absolutely so so needless to say you know traditional students are typically younger as you mentioned and they may struggle with lacking sort of the mature self regulation strategies as they are straight out of that teacher or parent caregiver regulated environment so they they definitely need sort of a more explicit instruction to set goals for time management.

spk_0 Etc. While the non traditional students usually have stronger life skills already so this is very manifest in sort of when I teach in an undergraduate program versus in a graduate program and particularly also the difference between a masters and a doctoral program so folks in the doctoral program obviously have stronger life skills and and purpose there they're very clearly you know for this type of degree not.

spk_0 Just sort of a I need a degree to become competitive in the marketplace that have a very clear reason to pursuing the degree but non traditional students may may face demanding competing demands jobs and care given that strain that ability to self regulate but they they bring again much greater life experience that can enhance self regulation in goal setting and persistence so so I think the the teaching are the support.

spk_0 So if you're reading of self regulation if you please at the undergraduate level can be much more explicit in teaching strategies while with more mature students it's more of a call on calling on them to use their existing time management skills to to you know to succeed.

spk_0 Yeah you have spoken already a little bit about making learning meaningful and that that can be a powerful motivated to learning and also maturity and self awareness what about self confidence does that come into people's ability to learn.

spk_0 Absolutely self confidence or as we like to call it in academic parlance self efficacy which is a concept that Albert Bandura introduced we know that self confidence is directly linked to our ability to self regulate which then in turn is highly predictive of our performance and achievement so self efficacy is very task specific so it's very difficult to do that.

spk_0 It's different from self worth or self esteem which is sort of a more of an overall assessment of how good and worthy I am as an individual self confidence is very is very does we call domain specific and in it influences our effort to engage in tasks our persistence and again our resilience to to succeed.

spk_0 So students who believe bottom line students who believe in their ability to succeed are much more likely to take on challenges to set challenging goals rather than sort of easy goals even in the choice of a major right students with with high self confidence are much more likely to choose challenging majors and they're much more likely to recover from the set back so when we think about you know for example students in STEM

spk_0 particularly women in STEM careers if they face you know some challenges in their first math and physics classes those who have a higher level of self confidence are much more likely to recover and persist in them again ultimately contributing to a tremendous more sort of amount of diversity and the field.

spk_0 So self efficacy is no small no small deal in self confidence academic self confidence in the particular areas is very very important.

spk_0 One of the aspects of less ability to self regulate or less self efficacy bad time management getting into some practical perhaps advice here what lies behind poor time management and are there strategies asking for a friend to combat a tendency to put things off.

spk_0 Absolutely so when we think about time management and procrastination the roots or let's say lack of time management and procrastination the roots of those two sort of areas are quite different we look time management poor time management as a lack of skill.

spk_0 But procrastination very clearly as a lack of will so procrastination is much more related to motivation than sort of a knowledge of how to do things so skills related to time management maybe things such as you know particularly when students come to college their days are filled with short brief periods of classes and a lot of free time and obviously that is all.

spk_0 So setting regular study periods almost like fake classes like they would you know pretend that they're in high school and they're there 10 to 12 is their classics so studying regular study periods freeing themselves from the distractions on the college campus not studying in their residence hall but

spk_0 locating quiet areas of study taking short breaks so sort of mimicking almost what their high school schedule was like being specific and identifying how one plans to use their study time prioritizing tasks working ahead of your assignments when possible so I have a list of skills and obviously nowadays we have tremendous amounts of technology and wonderful apps available to support us.

spk_0 So that's in it now you can create a beautiful study schedule for a whole week that is well informed by time management skills but just not get going or may often say hmm although it tomorrow I'll feel it more I'll feel more motivated about it so it's that sort of tendency to delay unnecessarily delay tasks with the faulty beliefs that one should only work when one is

spk_0 motivated and that I'll be more motivated shortly or tomorrow and so time management is not difficult to teach but procrastination is tougher to tackle because it often stems from fear of failure or perfectionism right or low confidence right low self confidence or low self efficacy doubting my ability to succeed at this task right now those are tough barriers to break

spk_0 through but there's also lots of strategies to combat those self those procrastination tendencies one of my favorite ones and I often face this when I for example I might get a manuscript back and I see already that there's a lot of comments and you know peer review is not always kind so there's there's almost all sort of comments that are quite biting and so I tell myself often I'm only going to do five minutes and then I'll do something much more pleasant.

spk_0 And I get going and it's often the case that 45 minutes later I'm still at it and it's not that bad so always kind of chunking things and if you're working on a major research paper

spk_0 or chunk it and just get going on let me just use some preliminary do some preliminary research or use perplexity or whatever it is as an AI as a thought partner or using AI as a thought partner how can I chunk it so because it feels so overwhelming and makes me doubt my my ability to do it.

spk_0 Yes you also mentioned AI which is impossible to have conversations about education these days without speaking about AI and you mentioned that you yourself use it as a tool for forgetting out of the gate for starting off that that that draft.

spk_0 It seems to me that students are using it to outsource a lot of tasks that we usually associate with learning so things like taking notes making summaries doing that first draft so this is making me think that there are definitely positives and negatives about AI in education with regards to motivation.

spk_0 Have you seen it having any effect on student's ability to self-regulate and motivate is it helping is it getting in the way.

spk_0 There's definitely ways in which AI and all the GPT tools can both support and hinder self-regulation so as you mentioned support can be manifested in very very personalized back in fact AI may really provide us ways to overcome this sort of the two sigma problem that we can do.

spk_0 Benjamin Bloom established goodness over 50 years ago now where it was it was clearly shown that students who benefited from tutoring performed you know two standard deviations above those who were receiving instruction in a group setting and with this been a vaccine problem in education for a long time so one of those wicked problems that we just we know that we can't provide tutoring for all it's just impossible costly and not enough tutors around.

spk_0 But AI really provides that opportunity to benefit from very personalized feedback the sort of scaffolding and then planning stool tools that can clearly enhance sort of strategy use as well as metafidnition so there's definitely you know tremendous benefits.

spk_0 The some of the hindrance is that it can become a way to overlie on AI that can reduce effort critical thinking and independent learning if AI is not used mindfully and a wonderful idea that MIT researchers MIT have coined a cognitive debt.

spk_0 So that's not directly related to self-regulation but it sort of ultimately contributes to self-regulation because it has to do with the sort of the learning and the deep learning that that students engage in so cognitive debt which is a wonderful term it's so rich and so important it captures the idea that offloading thinking to AI

spk_0 provides immediate gain so producing summaries right taking notes producing summaries and obviously yield immediate gains with speed and convenience but at a very significant deferred cost or go the term debt.

spk_0 It contributes to lack of domain understanding in depth because students haven't struggled with it and we know that learning doesn't come from ease learning comes from investing mental effort and that work that our prefrontal cortex does and that's often hard if not painful right we all know those those instances when we're learning and it almost hurts.

spk_0 But when we look back we learned a great deal well AI can sort of be a shortcut through them but through that undermine domain understanding ability to think deeply and ultimately retention and really including in our long term memory so that when we need that knowledge to move if you please on blue

spk_0 staxonomy from sort of remembering and understanding things at a lower level to applying to analyzing to evaluating situations and to create new knowledge we have a wobbly foundation if we've used AI

spk_0 you know what and if we've override on AI so it's again the erosion of mental effort retention and ability to think deeply is very significant and sort of is encapsulated in that idea of the cognitive deck so it's critical in how AI is integrated into learning or how students integrate AI into learning to supplement

spk_0 it rather than as a substitute for cognitive effort which is critical in learning. Learning is such an interesting sensation as you say it can be so incredibly frustrating but the feeling of having learnt something and that feeling of mastery is incredibly satisfying.

spk_0 We've got one more question I did wonder how much influence educators can actually have over this we've talked a lot about intrinsic motivation and self-regulation and there is a sense that these these things can be taught but at the end of the day how much

spk_0 influence can you actually exert over your students motivation to learn.

spk_0 Huge amount of influence that you get to have a very very sick educator so teachers faculty instructors have a significant

spk_0 influence we know that an enthusiastic instructor instructors enthusiasm for the subject is one of the main predictors of what we call situational

spk_0 interest so somebody the student who has never been in a in a physics class or oceanography class or an English literature history you name it.

spk_0 An enthusiastic professor can bring about situational interest in the moment in the context of the course that can over time absolutely develop into individual sustained interest.

spk_0 And so we can show that enthusiasm by our share levels of energy connecting the content to students lives we can provide students autonomy in for their final projects you know perhaps adjusting or contextualizing it for their individual life lived experiences or their current interests and also offer constructive and supporting feedback because we also know that without feedback learning doesn't really

spk_0 be is not really optimized so all of that can ignite interest and increase effort so so educator shape the value the students perceived value for what they're learning they're confidence absolutely giving clear guidance constructive feedback and and having that sort of mindset that everybody can learn this you're it's not that you're you know the ability to

spk_0 see the IQ the intelligence but it's really the effort the self regulation that we invest in learning that produces the outcome so everybody can learn this and then also a classroom climate that you know really recognizes the different lived experiences creating a learning community among the students where supported relationships can take place so the instructor learner relationship is critical and fostering.

spk_0 You know motivation engagement and ultimately again what we've been talking about self regulation.

spk_0 Well thank you very much for bringing us around to the classroom environment as well and the important of community which is a huge part of the university experience not just the learning experience.

spk_0 Helena thank you so much for your time today it's been a really fascinating conversation.

spk_0 You're so welcome this was so much fun and so important.

spk_0 Such a rich conversation again hacked with useful advice and while the two discussions covered a lot of different ground I was struck by the number of similarities even on complex issues such as how AI if used cleverly could help sustain student motivation.

spk_0 Both in and Helena placed a lot of emphasis on the need for students to find or recognize value in what they are learning and if there is a core message for university tutors I think that's it that that you need to help your students find their own personal value from your teaching if they are going to stay motivated.

spk_0 If you'd like more insight and advice on the not so simple task of keeping motivation levels high throughout your course do head to campus where our latest spot like guide brings together loads of resources on this topic.

spk_0 You'll find all of that at www.timeshireeducation.com-fordslash-campus.

spk_0 If you enjoyed the podcast please like and subscribe and we'll be back with you in a couple of weeks. Thank you. Bye bye.

Campus talks: How to unlock motivation and beat procrastination in your students and yourself

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