Are We Taking the Wrong Risks? With Chris Hutchins | Ep 567

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello and welcome to Choose a Fire. Today in the show we have my good friend Chris Hutchins.

spk_0 He's the host of the podcast All the Hacks. And he's someone I call on when I just want to have

spk_0 a far-ranging conversation. He's someone I talk to in real life. And we actually had planned on

spk_0 chatting about a number of things that we had texted about. And we decided, hey, let's just

spk_0 record an episode and let the audience be a fly in the wall for this conversation amongst friends.

spk_0 I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. It hit on a lot of things that are really

spk_0 timely for both of us. And Chris really started with, he's feeling like he's too conservative with

spk_0 his five goals. And this actually ties in nicely with last week's episode with Aubrey Williams.

spk_0 And we do touch on that in the episode. And ultimately Chris is curious, are we taking the wrong

spk_0 risks? And I think a lot of us are really conservative when it comes to our money. But are we conservative

spk_0 with our time? Are we conservative with the seasons of our life that are running out? And I think

spk_0 these are really important and timely questions. And I think you're really going to enjoy this. And with

spk_0 that, welcome to Choose That Five. Chris, my friend, it is good to see you. Yeah, it's good to see you.

spk_0 It's good to do this again. Yeah. So in my post-Jonathan era here at Choose A Pie,

spk_0 you and I have only done a couple episodes. But they're the closest to the old Brad and Jonathan

spk_0 episodes that I can get because obviously you're a buddy of mine in real life. And it's fun to just

spk_0 do these kind of rollicking round up or, hey, what's on our mind kind of episode? And I think,

spk_0 I think that's what we're going to plan on doing today. So we've been emailing back and forth

spk_0 and texting. And you were telling me about a couple of interviews you've done recently. So this

spk_0 last month or so, that's actually three weeks. You had episodes with Tim Ferriss come out and Tyler

spk_0 Gardner. And you basically said, I have all these things firing in my brain now. And maybe why am I so

spk_0 conservative with my five goals? What is going on in terms of like living a good life and goals and

spk_0 finding time with friends and all of these things, building businesses and when to take a step back.

spk_0 So obviously that's a lot, Chris. But I mean, this is instead of us having this conversation just

spk_0 on the phone, which we probably would have we just decided to record it. So I'm going to let you run

spk_0 with it. And then we'll just kind of we'll go from there. Yeah, I feel like a lot has been happening

spk_0 the last few weeks, including back to school, which as a parent, it's like your kids go back to school

spk_0 and you're like, Oh, I don't see them as much. Now I'm starting to be like, I want to spend more time

spk_0 with them. Time is more fleeting. But I think this big moment came when a good friend of mine said,

spk_0 oh, you've got to have this guy Tyler Gardner on the podcast. I was like, I don't know who that is.

spk_0 And he was like, you got you got to find him. So I reached out to him and sure enough made it happen.

spk_0 And he just says it how he feels it. And he's like, he's kind of both feels like he's inherently in

spk_0 the five community, but also is not in that like, yes, a bit on your show. He hasn't made the rounds,

spk_0 but has a lot of strong opinions. And the biggest one that kind of just left me, you know,

spk_0 you have a conversation with someone and it just leaves you thinking for a while. And that happened

spk_0 at me with Bill Perkins talking about Diwisero and Tyler was talking about the 4% rule. And he was

spk_0 like, you know, we always talk about the 4% rule as kind of a real safe way to make your retirement

spk_0 savings last. So if you started with a million dollars and you want to withdraw 4%, you know,

spk_0 there's a 98-ish percent chance that you won't run out of money. And for people in the audience that

spk_0 know the exact numbers, if I get them off by a little bit here or there, you know, apologies. But I

spk_0 think I agree. I agree. So he's like, you know, we're always optimizing for that. We're trying to

spk_0 make sure we don't run out of money. But he said the median outcome is actually that that million

spk_0 turns into like 10 million dollars. You know, so at the expense of potentially ending up with way

spk_0 too much money and having saved more than we needed to, having worked longer than we needed to,

spk_0 you know, we are optimizing for almost certainty that we don't run out of money. And the number of ways

spk_0 that you can supplement your income in a financial independence life where you're not working

spk_0 is so vast. And almost everyone, and I know you've had conversations on the show for years that I've

spk_0 either been a part of or listened to about people who make money after their, you know, retirement

spk_0 per se after they quit their, their nine to five and in financial independence. So that theme of,

spk_0 well, there's always ways to make money. And I think in my personal life, especially I go a little

spk_0 bit farther down the, the deals, the points of miles, the kind of that kind of crazy stuff. And the more I've

spk_0 been doing that, the more I've been realizing that the ability to make money doing things that are

spk_0 fun that aren't nine to five jobs, but that are real amounts of money, like not hundreds of dollars,

spk_0 but thousands or tens of thousands of dollars a year. And when you run the numbers, the difference

spk_0 between making no money and making $20,000 a year or $30,000 a year is really vast. And then the last

spk_0 thing I layered into the calculation of my head was a lot of the things I'm planning for around how

spk_0 much money I spend right now are related to me having a home that I'm paying a mortgage on, which in

spk_0 some number of years won't be the case, you know, 25 right now. So kids, a lot of the expenses related

spk_0 to kids might not be there. And so I don't know, I just look at it. I'm like, gosh, I'm optimizing for a

spk_0 4% rule calculation on an amount of money I'm spending when in reality, it's much more likely that

spk_0 I will have way more money than I planned because that's just how the markets work. And obviously,

spk_0 we could be wrong, you know, secrets of return risk, like there's a lot of things that could happen.

spk_0 But I just wonder if we're being too cautious and avoiding risk too much. And I think you actually

spk_0 told me you had a conversation that by the time this comes out, will have also come out, about whether

spk_0 we're all trying to avoid risk too much. Yeah, it's funny. That was, I literally recorded that

spk_0 yesterday. And this is that episode's coming out the week before this one. It was with Aubrey Williams.

spk_0 And yeah, he, we were talking about chances of success as well. And his quote was something to

spk_0 effectively affect a 100% chance of success of your withdrawal is a 100% chance that you oversee it

spk_0 by definition, right? And like, that's a pretty cool aha moment, I thought. And I mean, that is,

spk_0 that is absolutely true. And like you said, as Tyler said, the median outcome, according to him,

spk_0 at least, is you're going to have $10 million. That, I mean, Chris, that's crazy. I don't want a

spk_0 this is for someone whose target was one, right? If your target was 500, then it would be 5 million,

spk_0 if your target's 10 million, then it would be 100 million, you know, it's like 10 times your money

spk_0 was the conversation we had now. I didn't run those numbers. Is it? Right. And that's why I

spk_0 committed that also. But yeah, in any case, I've heard it as millions as the median outcome. But yeah,

spk_0 I think what's interesting, Chris, is that you said, but we could be wrong. And then there's the

spk_0 the dot, dot, dot at the end of it, right? Which I think that actually speaks to the inherent fear

spk_0 of a lot of people. And I think that's why so many of us are ultra conservative. We're savers.

spk_0 Most of the people in the five community are savers by definition to get to five. You have to have

spk_0 a significant savings rate. You're thinking about eventualities. And I think that's where we get

spk_0 tripped up is we're all looking for certainty. And it's interesting because Tyler mentioned

spk_0 something in that episode that was totally unrelated to this. But it reminded me I've said almost

spk_0 verbatim the same thing, which is by looking for certainty, we are giving something up. There is

spk_0 an opportunity cost. Now he was talking about in the case of investing or not investing. And I think

spk_0 this is where people get tripped up of is investing risky. And now the question is ultimately they're

spk_0 trying to say like, I feel so much safer just putting it in my savings account or my checking account

spk_0 because the money it's never going to go down. So they're completing risk and volatility.

spk_0 The way that I always look at it is what is truly riskier, right? So if you put your money,

spk_0 if you put a hundred grand in a checking account, now obviously you would say of course put it in

spk_0 a high yield savings, yada, yada, yada. But there are many people who are just so scared they want to

spk_0 stick that money into checking account earning essentially nothing. 18 years from now that 100 grand

spk_0 is still going to be 100 grand, right? By definition if it earns no interest, whereas had you

spk_0 invested in that in the stock market, at a hopefully an 8% annual return, which it would double every

spk_0 nine years, right? After nine years, that's 200 grand. After 18 years, that's 400 grand. So now Chris,

spk_0 am I going to tell you or anybody listening that that money is never going to go up or down?

spk_0 That it's going to be this perfect straight line up. Of course not. There's volatility. That's how it

spk_0 works. But which is truly riskier? I think the answer is obvious that it's riskier to put it in

spk_0 a checking account in that scenario. Now I think similar to what we're talking about here, which is

spk_0 riskier. So you are guaranteeing for most people who don't especially love their jobs or even if they

spk_0 kind of deluded themselves into thinking like their job is the one thing that they would pick out

spk_0 of the billions of options, which is ridiculous as it is, but nevertheless, like they're working for

spk_0 years extra giving up the only resource that is finite their time in order to take their success

spk_0 rate of their portfolio from 95 to 99.9. And it's like that is not riskless. You have given up

spk_0 years in a job that those years, they don't come back. We're on a one way path to maybe 90 years

spk_0 of unlucky and to give up two, three, five of them or more just to go from some crazy success rate

spk_0 chance to a marginally higher one. That seems that seems crazy to me. I totally agree, especially

spk_0 when if you look at the two sides of this equation, so one is a risk that you work longer than you

spk_0 need to or you say, or I could even argue that the risk isn't that you're working longer, it's

spk_0 that during those years of work, you're saving too much when you're young, when you can travel.

spk_0 You're not affording yourselves. I don't even want to say luxuries because for a lot of people in

spk_0 this community, myself included those luxuries sometimes are like getting the appetizer. There

spk_0 these tiny things that we convince ourselves we don't deserve because we're trying to save too much.

spk_0 So one risk is that you're just not living the life you really want to live because you're so

spk_0 focused on saving, which could look like spending less than you want or it could look like working

spk_0 longer than you want or the risk that later in life, you run out of money. Now, the crazy thing is

spk_0 in that second risk, it's not like one day you find out I have no money. You will probably find out

spk_0 that the market didn't return early on and now you're looking at your 40-year horizon and it's

spk_0 looking like it's 30 and you have time to course correct, right? You might not be able to get that

spk_0 exact job you have now, but when I look at how much $10,000 a year closes the gap on a lot of this

spk_0 math, I think you could go deliver DoorDash. There are jobs available to people who want them.

spk_0 They might not pay what your engineering salary does, but this fear that, oh, well, if I quit my job

spk_0 now, I will never make another dollar. So I have to get to certainty is crazy. And so the

spk_0 confluence of all that, then I had this conversation with Tim Ferris like you did and it went down the

spk_0 path of a little bit. I don't even know what the right word for this is. It's like, well, nobody's

spk_0 really going to remember most people like a hundred years from now, a thousand years from now,

spk_0 like most of what we do is not going to make a lasting impact on the world. And that a true,

spk_0 happy life, you know, if you're grinding to try to do this thing to make this impact, it's probably

spk_0 not going to have a huge impact on the world. It will probably have a huge impact on the people

spk_0 around you. So if you spend most of your time and energy and resources enjoying time with others,

spk_0 with humans, making real life connection, you know, spending on those experiences with those

spk_0 people, you'll be more fulfilled. I'm sitting here thinking, I'm in my forties, should I really just

spk_0 be using my resources to have more experiences with my family, with my friends on my own? You know,

spk_0 maybe there's some silent meditation retreat I've never experienced that, you know, because I'm

spk_0 trying to put out content because I'm trying to, you know, build a company because I'm trying to

spk_0 do all these things I'm not doing. And it's just really made me reevaluate a lot. And then

spk_0 layer on the kids going back to school. And it for people who haven't seen this, there's some really

spk_0 cool charts. I'm happy to send you a link. But Sahil Bloom wrote this book, The Five Types of Wealth.

spk_0 I've done a couple interviews with him. And in one of them, we talked about, you know, the time

spk_0 spent with different people in your life and where that peaks and where that drops off. It's like

spk_0 your time with your kids, like it kind of goes away when they're off to college. So it's like,

spk_0 well, like I want to spend that time. So we have this idea next summer of what if we just find a

spk_0 way to take the summer off? And I realized that's not everyone's job allows that. But I mean, if

spk_0 you were optimizing for a 4% rule and you decided it's a 5% rule, well, maybe your job does allow.

spk_0 I had Jillian on who I know has been on your show. We talked about many retirements. It just seems

spk_0 like I really need to rethink the priorities of where I want to take my risk. And maybe I don't

spk_0 want the risk that I'm going to give up these opportunities. And I'm okay with the risk that

spk_0 maybe I'm going to have to do some instacart deliveries in 20 years if the market is in the 10%

spk_0 failure. Like, it's not like I'm saying I want to optimize for 50% failure. But you'd be wildly

spk_0 surprised that the difference between a 2% failure rate and a 10 or 15 or 20% failure rate.

spk_0 Yeah. And I've seen that. And it's funny because that's what Aubrey and I talked about yesterday

spk_0 in that episode. So I'm excited for you to listen to that when it comes out because yeah, he was

spk_0 talking about essentially, it was just, it was so common senseical, if you will, that like,

spk_0 it gave me a framework, which was he basically optimizes for 90% success rate. And then he creates

spk_0 these guard rails that, okay, you at the time that you, let's say, you five, you have this number

spk_0 for what is a 90% success rate. And that's your withdrawal. And I think he used engaging data

spk_0 or fire calc, but I'm pretty sure it was engaging data. And basically, when, if and when, your

spk_0 net worth got down to a 75% success rate. So you actually start that at the very beginning. You have

spk_0 these two numbers. So let's say for every million dollars, he talked about a 90% success rate was

spk_0 4.39% which all rate, okay, so you could take out 43,900. Now, if your portfolio got down to where

spk_0 it was a 75% success rate, then basically, I think that was 910,000. So if you're portfolio drop

spk_0 to that point at any point, then you basically just rerun the numbers and bring it back up to,

spk_0 okay, here's my portfolio today. What would get me back to 90% success rate? Chris, to your point,

spk_0 it was just a couple hundred dollars a month. That's all we're talking here. So he had this

spk_0 continual adjustment potential that gave me some satisfaction of, okay, this actually makes a

spk_0 lot of sense. And to your point, I mean, we're talking like in this case, $5,000 a year at most

spk_0 was the difference. And I know you with all your tinkering and all your all your fun ways to earn

spk_0 money, like you could essentially fall out of bed and earn $5,000 in a year with bank bonuses or

spk_0 some other kind of crazy schemes that you're up to. But I mean, really still get all of us can earn

spk_0 510, $20,000 pretty easily. And that was a real eye opener for me. And yeah, I mean, I think there's

spk_0 that, I think to your point about Saho Bloom, I know where we've quoted for forever is

spk_0 wait, but why is article the tail end? And it's probably where Saho got his info. And it's like,

spk_0 man, by the time your kids are 18, you've spent 90% plus of the time you'll ever spend with them.

spk_0 And you know, I don't know that you know this, not sure, but my daughter is like 17 and a half

spk_0 at this point. She's, she's applying early to William and Mary here now. As we speak, she is

spk_0 going to college in less than a year in 11 months. She will be a college wherever that is. And I

spk_0 mean, Chris, that's talk about an eye opener. I mean, you have to maximize this time. And I think,

spk_0 it's like this continuum of five, right? Like I think a lot of us have gotten away in recent years

spk_0 from the necessary frugality that I think frankly, it truly is necessary at the beginning of

spk_0 a five journey. I think for most people, they're earning the income that they can earn at that moment.

spk_0 So what is the low hanging fruit? The low hanging fruit is a little bit of frugality. And I don't

spk_0 think there's anything wrong with that. I think, you know, frankly, like me talking about

spk_0 Diwazero so much after hearing Perkins on your on your podcasts three years ago. I mean,

spk_0 I must have referenced that episode 50 times on my podcast. So I became an ever-present here in

spk_0 the five community. And it's like, do I think that was a disservice to the five community? No,

spk_0 I didn't. And I don't because I think frankly, there are a lot of people like Manu who are now

spk_0 getting into these later stages of five where we're either at or near five. And we have to think

spk_0 about a Chris, right? Like what do we want life to look like? And I don't think that takes away

spk_0 from the message that frugality is important. It always will be, right? Like I've also talked

spk_0 recently how every hundred dollars that you cut out of your monthly expense, we know that it lowers

spk_0 your fine number by thirty thousand dollars. So every one hundred dollars lowers your fine number

spk_0 by thirty thousand because obviously it doesn't stop there, right? You're investing that money

spk_0 and you invested over 20 years, a naprecent return. That's sixty thousand you have. So it's a

spk_0 ninety thousand dollar swing for every hundred dollars you cut out of your budget. So anybody who

spk_0 tells you that little things don't matter literally doesn't understand. So that's important. But also

spk_0 you and I are at points in our lives where it's like, all right, we both have daughters who are

spk_0 growing up. We both have businesses that we can spend too much time on. It's not easy to come

spk_0 up with the answer. It's also I have a personality where I enjoy work. Like, you know, I've met some

spk_0 people in the financial independence community who were like, I don't enjoy working and I'm very

spk_0 excited to be done with work. So I could just kind of read books and hang out and go on a hike and

spk_0 I just actually like building like and today with all the tools that you have at your disposal

spk_0 when it comes to building products and technology and software with all the AI coding tools. Like

spk_0 gosh, I get if you said your family is leaving for a year you can't intergage with them and like,

spk_0 how do you want to spend your year? I would probably just go build all kinds of stuff like it's fun.

spk_0 But that comes at a cost. And so I'm trying to think about how I want to prioritize things.

spk_0 I think I regularly have this budgeting conversation where my wife and I would look at, you know,

spk_0 broadly where we're spending money. And then we would ask ourselves two questions which were like,

spk_0 if we cut 20% of the costs and if we increase 20% what would that look like? And then we would

spk_0 compare the 20% we'd cut to the 20% we'd increase. And almost every single time the things that we

spk_0 would increase if we added 20% to our budget are more valuable and we were more excited about

spk_0 than the things that we would cut if we reduce 80%. So I like to say like it's not actually about

spk_0 spending less money. It's about identifying are there things you're doing that you could replace

spk_0 and you'd be happier, more fulfilled, you know, better use of money, etc. And then do the same thing

spk_0 regularly with time. And I don't mean calendar auditing. I'm not a good calendar auditor looking at

spk_0 my day to day minute by minute, but looking at the major projects you have. It's like, okay,

spk_0 you know, I have these five or six major areas of our business that we took listeners on a trip

spk_0 to Iceland last year. And my wife and I went on the trip and it was absolutely amazing. I was one

spk_0 of the best trips we've ever taken. And not just because Iceland's amazing because the people we met,

spk_0 you know, and you know this, you've engaged with your community. I have to like in real life at events,

spk_0 in Facebook groups, in meetups, and it's really fun. And so getting to go on a trip that was

spk_0 one of the best trips you could take to Iceland with a group of people that have similar outlook

spk_0 on life beliefs was amazing. Then this year we're doing two trips, but we're not going on them.

spk_0 Okay. And it turns out that I thought planning a trip to Iceland was very enjoyable. And it could

spk_0 be a good business. Then now we're planning a second trip to Iceland that starts on Saturday that

spk_0 we're not going on. That is a lot less fun. Planning a travel business where you're not getting

spk_0 the trip is just not a joy. And it will make some money though the US dollar has depreciated about

spk_0 14% against the Icelandic Grunners since we booked the trip. We price the trip at US dollars, but we

spk_0 pay for the trip when we're on it in Icelandic Grunners. So that was a big learning moment. But

spk_0 we're like, we don't want to do that. I don't think we want to take trips unless they're the

spk_0 trips we're going on. So is there a trip we're going to plan again in the future and invite people

spk_0 and go on it? Yes, probably. But are we going to try to have a line of business where we take the

spk_0 trips we've been on and run them for other people? Going forward? No. I think the people that go on

spk_0 this trip will have the best time of their lives. If you're listening now by the time that you

spk_0 will have already gone on the trip and enjoyed it. But we're evaluating these big key areas of how we

spk_0 spend our time. And you know, some of them are silly. Like we have a hot tub in our house, our

spk_0 house. Hot tub. And we found that we were spending more time maintaining the hot tub than using the

spk_0 hot tub. So we drain the hot tub. So we still have it, but it is not functional. You can't use it.

spk_0 I almost bought like those balls from a ball pit to just have a little ball pit in the backyard.

spk_0 And I was surprised. They were more expensive than I thought. But this is a good example of,

spk_0 you know, how much more expensive was it a couple hundred dollars of balls like am I being ridiculous?

spk_0 Should I have just spent that money? Because I don't know what could be cooler than having like if I

spk_0 was a kid, if my parents had a ball pit in the backyard, like I should just buy the balls, throw them

spk_0 in the hot tub and call it a day. I'm going to make that a goal. I'm going to try to get small

spk_0 before the end of the year. It was also a fun one. You know one of those like Google interview

spk_0 problems. It's like how many balls do I need to fill a hot? Yeah. So figuring out how many I needed

spk_0 was another one. But I think that we just started evaluating all these things both money and time.

spk_0 And we're just trying to be really intentional about it. And I don't know. I feel a lot better

spk_0 about how the next five years might be with kind of some of these approaches of regularly sitting

spk_0 down with your partner with your family. Obviously when our kids are older, let's engage them about

spk_0 what kind of family do we want to do? How many date nights do we want to have? Do we want to have?

spk_0 Now we take dates with just one parent, one kid. Like we're just evaluating the routine also.

spk_0 And I think as a financial frugal person, we never spent as much time thinking about what we're

spk_0 doing. We spent more time thinking about how much it costs and where we're spending our money.

spk_0 And now we're like, what are all the things we do? Do we want to spend more energy on family

spk_0 travel with extended family or just us? You know sometimes you get roped up into, we've got this

spk_0 family union and then we've got to go see this person and this person, this person. We're like

spk_0 we realize and credit to one family member of ours who she was like, you know what?

spk_0 For Christmas, we're just going to do it with our kids. Like we've decided that traveling on Christmas

spk_0 morning is not a thing we're going to do. And it was this light bulb moment where we were like, oh,

spk_0 didn't think about that as an option. And then I looked back at my childhood and I was like,

spk_0 I don't actually remember always traveling. It's something you do, I think before you have children,

spk_0 it's like, well, I'm going to go see family for the holidays every time. And then you have kids

spk_0 and then I don't know if maybe it's just us. It's like for the first couple of years, we kept up

spk_0 with that old routine where you're always going to see family. And then at one point we're like,

spk_0 well, let's just make the rituals for ourselves. And so we've been spending a lot of time just

spk_0 redefining what we care about, what we want to do. And it's been really exciting.

spk_0 Yeah, I love the questioning sacred cows. Right. There's so many things that we just do because

spk_0 we do them. And as you were saying that, I was thinking about, this is a ridiculous silly story,

spk_0 but like a handful of years ago, my mom, so she would always have us over for Thanksgiving. And then

spk_0 for like the Christmas ish holidays. And for whatever reason, she would essentially make a

spk_0 Thanksgiving dinner, both for Thanksgiving. And then for Christmas or Christmas, it's like, we

spk_0 had the turkey again, we'd have the whatever. And it's like, and it was just so stressful. Like for

spk_0 her and my brother who were cooking. And it got to the point where it was like, it was pretty miserable.

spk_0 And we actually said to her like, for Christmas, we're like, mom, we just had this meal. Like,

spk_0 what would you like to eat? And yeah, I'm going to be funny with the caricature, but she is literally

spk_0 a Jewish mother. And like many Jewish people, she loves Chinese food. So on Christmas, we literally

spk_0 had Chinese food for our Christmas dinner. And it was just great. I mean, Chris, it was just fun.

spk_0 It was fun. We did something different. The next year, we had appetizers. Everybody brought

spk_0 appetizers. And it was like, we've done this same thing for 40 years. What would it look like if

spk_0 it was just a little bit different? And I think I would challenge everybody listening to say, hey,

spk_0 what am I just doing as a matter of course? What am I doing because we've always done this? Right?

spk_0 And it's like, you can actually think about things. You can do something a little bit different.

spk_0 Like you said, not one family member who said, hey guys, we're going to just do ourselves this

spk_0 year. And like, and that's great. That doesn't mean they don't want to see you. It just means like,

spk_0 hey, in this season of life, this is what we want to do. And that's perfectly fine. And like,

spk_0 I would have applauded them because it's a big step. It's hard to do that sometimes. It's hard

spk_0 to go against what you've always done. I know it sounds silly, but I think it's important to

spk_0 screw nice things. I really do. And you were talking about essentially experimentation and iteration.

spk_0 Right? And it's like that Iceland trip, you learned a couple things, a couple of major things,

spk_0 which is you don't want to be a travel organizer. Like that's not a future business for you,

spk_0 clearly. But you did love organizing the trip you went on. So who's to say you only have to do

spk_0 that once a year? Right? Like, I mean, when we're talking about five and being conservative,

spk_0 then hey, you could even if your podcast made zero dollars. Right? If you at some point,

spk_0 you and Amy, 10 years from now, if you want to just travel seven times a year, I'm sure you could

spk_0 have seven listener trips where you plan them personally. And the tiny little bit of profit could

spk_0 just cover the two of you. And hey, look, our travel is paid for now. Obviously for you, that's a

spk_0 little bit less impactful because you have so many points in miles, but nevertheless for normal people,

spk_0 that would be a boom. That would be fantastic. Let me tell you about normal people, right?

spk_0 My brain is normal in any way, my friend. No, no, yeah, I am definitely not normal. That's fair.

spk_0 But let me tell you about my grandparents. They did not travel much. They grew up in Oklahoma,

spk_0 and they traveled a lot by cars. They went to lots of national parks, took my mom and all their

spk_0 siblings there. They went to world fairs. They were ambitious ones. They went to Canada. And in

spk_0 1975, they crossed the Atlantic on their first trip, and they loved it. And in the next 33 years,

spk_0 they went to dozens of countries, went to almost every continent. And what they did was, and they were

spk_0 true fire folks, they retired early by moving to a retirement community, right? They were not very

spk_0 frugal. And they wanted to travel. And so they organized trips. So their last name was Sayer. Sayer

spk_0 tours. They took five to seven trips every year with the retirement community. They lived in,

spk_0 they lived in the same retirement community from about 50 to 90, 40 years. Wow. And they just

spk_0 said, Hey, and it turns out when you move into a retirement community in your 50s, you are a lot

spk_0 more organized, spry, easy going than everyone else in that community. And so they volunteered.

spk_0 They said, Hey, we're organizing a trip to Sweden. Hey, we're organizing a trip to China. We're

spk_0 in my tracker of like how many countries have we been to? So my wife and I have this, this Google

spk_0 sheet that's called countries to visit. And just for fun, when I first put it together, I put my

spk_0 grandparents in there as well. So it's like, where have I been? Where have my parents been? Where's

spk_0 my wife been? And then where have my grandparents been? So they ended up at 53. Which is for, you know,

spk_0 two-character ago. And I worked at a library, worked as a teacher, like did not have wild resources.

spk_0 And so they found that they love travel. And so they did exactly what we're describing without a

spk_0 budget, without points and miles, without any of it, by just moving to a retirement community early,

spk_0 finding a group of people and with no public audience and organizing trips to go to these places.

spk_0 And like you said, even not as a professional travel agent, you could back then at least you'd

spk_0 book 20 flights and say, Hey, you know, I'm the organizer. Can I get the flights for the organizer

spk_0 free and no one had any qualms letting them be able to go on these trips for free? And they did it

spk_0 for decades all over the world. And I will say of all of our grandparents between my wife and I,

spk_0 those two outlived every other one, lived till their 90s. And I think that the social

spk_0 bonds they had living in this retirement community for 40 years, spending almost every waking moment,

spk_0 like with other people, you can't underestimate how valuable that is in your life. And if you go

spk_0 back and listen to the conversation I had with Tim, which you haven't done yet because it has

spk_0 come out. But for anyone now, it should be out. We talked a lot about just the value of spending

spk_0 time with people. And Tim has some tactics that I liked, which were if you want to do it, you just

spk_0 have to make it happen. And so what he does is he plans it out a year in advance and he books things,

spk_0 so there's a sunk cost and invites the people. And that's like the anchors of the year is making

spk_0 sure that you do these things. And it's so easy to get caught up with, oh, well, we didn't plan

spk_0 this. We didn't plan that. Let's plan it last minute. And so I was like, whatever you want to do,

spk_0 just do something to make it happen. Maybe you don't book every aspect of it, but put a non-refundable

spk_0 deposit down on something that you know you want to do. I think there's something to that. And I have

spk_0 something that I used to think was super valuable. Die. And I'm going to revive it, which is I had

spk_0 this idea and I called it monthly memorables. We talked about this on a previous episode.

spk_0 Okay. But the idea is every month do something that makes that month memorable. And so for someone

spk_0 who didn't go back and hear that episode when we were you talked about it last time, it's like just

spk_0 try to make sure it doesn't have to be an international vacation. It can be we, you know, you did an

spk_0 escape room, which as a nerd for escape rooms, I would highly recommend everyone try at least once

spk_0 because if you don't know if you're an escape room person, you might be talk about something that's

spk_0 like one of my favorite things to do in life. But I just feel like we need more of that. Like more

spk_0 time with people, more time doing things we enjoy. And I'm going back to where we started. The risk

spk_0 that we're not doing that seems higher than the risk that I need to go make a little extra money

spk_0 or spend a little less in retirement if the market, you know, just happens to perform a lot more

spk_0 poorly for me than it's expected to. Yeah. Now I definitely hear you. And I think the hard part is

spk_0 just making it happen. And I think it's okay to come to that realization and then re-double your

spk_0 efforts. So for instance, last year in 2024, I organized a small trip to Breckenridge with the

spk_0 handful of people that I know from the fight community. And it was great. And we had people flying

spk_0 from a couple different locations and a couple of local people. And it was just we had a

spk_0 grand old time for four days, whatever it was, hike to 14 air and play pickleball and had hours

spk_0 long conversations over coffee and board games and things like that. And it was great. And frankly,

spk_0 I didn't make it happen in 2025. And you know, I could always come up with every excuse, Chris,

spk_0 like obviously I've been dealing with finalizing divorce this year. I've been busy. I've been

spk_0 traveling a lot, yada, yada, yada. But like had I just booked an Airbnb in February for August,

spk_0 it would have happened. And I saw you light up when you were talking about about escape rooms. And

spk_0 it's like, hey, what if you just put it on the books every three months? I'm literally just booking

spk_0 this for six people. And what does it cost? 50 bucks a person at most, 30, but whatever it is, like

spk_0 just prepay for six people and invite four friends every single time you, your wife and four friends,

spk_0 you have it on the books four times a year. And then it'll be fun. Who am I going to invite this time?

spk_0 Who's going to come out? Like that's something that would be so easy and solo cost. Obviously in

spk_0 the grand scheme of things, you're talking like five to seven hundred dollars probably maybe less

spk_0 over a year for six years. And like literally I Chris, obviously people listening to this can say,

spk_0 I saw you light up, you look like a different human. You're a jovial guy anyway. So let's be clear.

spk_0 They're like, you looked like substantially different. And like, you got to lean into that kind of

spk_0 stuff. Sadly, we have done basically every escape room. Now it's every time we travel, we have to do

spk_0 them. But I hear you a hundred percent, like doing those things, making them happen, planning them

spk_0 in advance, the risk that you can't fill, you know, the Airbnb or something like that is so low.

spk_0 I think, you know, we, we were going to go to Mexico, we rented a house and we were like,

spk_0 oh, I wonder if we can fill it. It's over new years. No problem. And like, we have kids and

spk_0 ever and all of our friends have kids and it wasn't a problem. Thanks for listening to Choose a

spk_0 Fi and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support Choose a Fi

spk_0 is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at choose

spk_0 about.com such cards. I keep this page constantly updated. So it should always be the top resource

spk_0 for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support. One of the reasons I actually

spk_0 like playing the points game is that some of the best way to get the most value out of your points

spk_0 is to book something when the schedule opens. Right. So a lot of airlines are well known for

spk_0 releasing inventory a certain number of seats, you know, when their schedule opens. So for a lot

spk_0 of airlines, that's 360 or 361 days out. And so my wife and I had talked about taking the kids to

spk_0 Japan. And so we were like, we should take kids to Japan. And naturally, as someone with a lot of

spk_0 points and miles, we're not really interested in flying in economy class to Japan. And so we knew

spk_0 that a lot of these seats are going to open up 361 days out. So we planned our Japan trip 361 days

spk_0 out. Now we don't book any hotels. We have no idea where we're going. Okay. That lights to Tokyo.

spk_0 And we're going. And the entire like I go back to this book Happy Money where it's like these five

spk_0 different ways to spend money for happiness. It was kind of like a science recap of some research.

spk_0 And one of them is to prepay for things. And the reason is twofold. One, you know, the last

spk_0 moment of your trip, if you're prepaying for, you know, a vacation is not paying this hefty bill.

spk_0 So I give you prepay all the hotels when you check out. You don't have to look at that big. And the

spk_0 other is that you could just anticipate it and be excited about it. Like the entire year, our

spk_0 Instagram feeds now are just basically all filled with crazy fun, family and kid activities in Japan.

spk_0 And we've saved so many of them and we plan this thing versus if you plan a week out, you know,

spk_0 you're kind of scrambling to figure it out. And so because the way these schedules work,

spk_0 we book these things so far in advance. And so we miss the boat on next summers, you know,

spk_0 go live abroad because we haven't figured out where. Okay. But the idea for spring breaks for

spk_0 Christmases times where you might already know we're probably going to go somewhere. I love that,

spk_0 you know, the price to book your flight 12 months out, 11 months out, 10 months out, doesn't change

spk_0 that drastically. But when you're using your points, like you often, some of the most sought-after

spk_0 destinations open up seats right as the schedule opens. And in a couple days or hours or minutes,

spk_0 in my case, they disappear. And so I like that that is one thing that is forcing us to make decisions.

spk_0 And so it just forces us to plan and commit to stuff. Yeah, that's brilliant. And the conjunction

spk_0 of that and the anticipation, right? Like to look forward to that as a family for 360 days,

spk_0 that's not nothing. And now just to just to make this out like it's not all as perfect as it is,

spk_0 the particular airline we booked on was Japan Airlines and they only release two seats at schedule

spk_0 open. Oh, you only got two business class. They fly from San Francisco to both Tokyo airports.

spk_0 So we have two seats on one flight and two seats on another kindness. And so I'm confident

spk_0 that before we leave, something else will open, one of my piece of advice for people that are

spk_0 trying to use their points. Obviously flexibility makes the value go a lot further. But you know,

spk_0 booking something that will work, set some alerts and then wait and then something almost inevitably

spk_0 always opens up. The amount of availability that opens up like the week before is really,

spk_0 really high, but it's super stressful to be like, you know what, a word space for flights opens up

spk_0 a week before travel. Let's just plan our trip a week before it's like it's not fun to not be able

spk_0 to anticipate for a year. So we have flights to Japan. I'm I would say 80% confident that we will

spk_0 all for be on the same flight in business class. Okay. However, I am not confident we will confirm

spk_0 that until, you know, if you told me how confident will I be that we will confirm that 14 days out?

spk_0 It's like it goes down to 20%. Oh wow. Okay. By take off, I feel confident that will happen.

spk_0 But we have something that's fine. Right. And worst case scenario you meet up in

spk_0 center city, Tokyo and it's not the worst thing. Not ideal, but not a total deal killer.

spk_0 We have two daughters. And as you know, the older they are, the easier they get to travel with.

spk_0 So by wife's like, okay, I'm fine. If the backup plan is we split up, but you're taking the younger

spk_0 kid. Nice. Is she going to fly into Haneda right in the middle of the city too?

spk_0 I think she is in the easier commute. I think I was like, how do I optimize for her having the

spk_0 easiest travel experience though? She is quite well traveled and I am not, I'm not, I'm not

spk_0 mean, this would be our fifth trip to Japan. So not worried about that, but never with kids. And

spk_0 oh my gosh, if you have kids, there's just so much cool stuff to do in Japan. They have like a bakery

spk_0 that is kids only. So like the kids have to go in and buy stuff, but that adults aren't even allowed

spk_0 in. There is place called kids, Aneia where all the kids get jobs. And this is like one of the

spk_0 three year old will go for a few hours and learn to be a bank teller in a very kid appropriate way.

spk_0 Or there'll be a pizza maker or there'll be a fire person, you know, like, and it's funny because

spk_0 it's mostly in Japanese, but they rotate. They're like on Mondays, these five occupations are in

spk_0 the English on Tuesdays, these five occupations are in English. And so we just found all these

spk_0 incredible things that we've never even considered on all our past trips to Japan. So like I am so excited

spk_0 for this trip. It's brought me just the planning of it. We're not even going for another seven

spk_0 months. And I'm like, so excited about it. I've never we used to plan so last minute. And I'm loving

spk_0 this committing in advance. And we're going to extend it to next summer. We're thinking for a couple

spk_0 of the destinations we go to, let's just rent a bigger house and like send an open invitation to

spk_0 family, maybe some friends and say, Hey, we've got room for another person to join us these two weeks.

spk_0 We'd love you to come. Like, what's it's booked? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And really,

spk_0 like, what is the Delta? What's the difference in terms of cost? Right? Like you're already there.

spk_0 You're already getting an Airbnb for X number of days or weeks, like to get one more bedroom.

spk_0 It's fairly negligible for what you're getting back in terms of, wow, this is really awesome. We

spk_0 get to share this experience with people. And yeah, I really like that. It's funny. So my daughter

spk_0 is a massive roller coaster enthusiast. I don't know if you know this is a thing, but there's

spk_0 like this worldwide network of roller coaster enthusiasts. So I actually know two of the best

spk_0 amusing parks in the world. Roller coaster parks are in Japan. So I think your kids are a little too

spk_0 young, but I knew off the top of my head, I'm like, Oh, Nagashima Spinal Land and Fuji-Q Highland.

spk_0 Like she's told me about all the coast. She is like an encyclopedic memory of all these roller

spk_0 coasters. So I think a future trip for us to Japan is definitely definitely in the cards. But

spk_0 yeah, it was funny. I was going to ask you not a roller coaster fan. No, I wish I was, but I might

spk_0 actually have an episode that your daughter will enjoy because this listener of mine who emailed me

spk_0 is a professional theme park consultant. I want to say I'm trying to remember the exact terms he

spk_0 used, but he basically that is his job. He plans and helps people create theme parks and all kinds

spk_0 of stuff. And he was like, maybe we should do an episode. It's like all about that and how to

spk_0 get the most out of those experiences. And I was like, I will see. That sounds fun. Yeah. So I've

spk_0 got something for her. Yeah, I know you at least have one listener for that episode. That's

spk_0 and you know, it's funny because you're saying like we miss the boat for next summer. And obviously

spk_0 that doesn't mean you're not going to book any kind of trips. But you're talking about like that

spk_0 month-long trip. And I just want to make sure I heard you right. But like I think you were saying

spk_0 that under the guys of, Hey, we didn't get that 360 days out. So I don't have the exact thing.

spk_0 But that doesn't preclude you from taking it. We miss the boat in terms of we didn't book it 360 days

spk_0 out. But when the Paris Olympics happened, it's funny. We ended up going to the Paris Olympics

spk_0 unintentionally. Really? Like we went to the Olympics, but we had to do that at the Olympics because

spk_0 we just regularly set these alerts. So if people have points and miles and you want to get the value

spk_0 out of them, there are a handful of tools. I'll put a link in the show notes. I'm not going to

spk_0 run through them all or I'll send you a link of an episode I did where we run through them. And you

spk_0 can say, Hey, I'm looking for flights non-stop from this city to Europe, you know, for four passengers

spk_0 in business class in July or August. And you can set that alert nine months in advance and just

spk_0 wait for something to happen. And I think it's hard. Sometimes I get these messages from people

spk_0 who say, Hey, I heard you talk about taking a family of four to Paris. I don't see any flights.

spk_0 And I was like, Yeah, if you're only looking today and you're only looking for a specific day,

spk_0 it's really hard. And honestly, I think in the recent past, I'm starting to make a case more for

spk_0 cashback. I know it sounds great for me. Really? We'll be back to that. But I think if you say

spk_0 nine months in advance, say we want to go to this region of the world and we're willing to go

spk_0 across these two months, no problem. Like no problem that something will pop up before you leave.

spk_0 That's a good value for your points. But if you're not flexible, then it can be tough. I think it's,

spk_0 you know, I have friends who, you know, are kind of at a stage in life where they either can't or

spk_0 don't want to be flexible. And they're like, I want to go from this city to this city. And I

spk_0 want to go from one in ten or less times. It's actually a good deal to use points. So I've convinced

spk_0 them. I said, like, he should just not be playing the points game. It's just not worth it for you,

spk_0 given how little flexibility you have. But if you're flexible with where you go, when you go,

spk_0 how you get there, what class you're going to, you know, how last minute you're able to find out,

spk_0 you know, that you have seats, all that kind of stuff. And I don't mean flexible with all of them.

spk_0 I mean, if you're flexible on one axis, I think you can just get so much value out of it. But,

spk_0 but I ran the numbers the other day on how much value you get back booking flights with dollars.

spk_0 So when you book flights with points, you don't earn anything. To earn miles, you can spend money

spk_0 on a credit card or you can fly on an airline or you can stay at a hotel, usually for almost every

spk_0 program. When you fly on that airline, if you're paying with your miles, you don't earn miles.

spk_0 And on most airlines, if you pay with your flight with miles, you're not earning points that count

spk_0 towards status, right? You're not earning credit card points because you didn't pay for the trip

spk_0 with cash. You paid for it with your points. And so you didn't put more than the taxes on your card.

spk_0 And so I started to add up all the different things that you would get back. You know, you get the

spk_0 credit card points, you get the elite status, you'd get the points from the flight itself. And honestly,

spk_0 the total was somewhere in the range of 10 to 25%. Really mean that if you're looking at

spk_0 cash fairs and points and the flight was $200, you should really discount it by 10 to 20%.

spk_0 Like, if you really care about status, maybe it's higher on the 25. If you don't, maybe it's 15.

spk_0 But because you're earning points on that trip, because you're earning points on the credit card,

spk_0 like you're actually getting back probably I would say depending on your circumstance, at least 10%.

spk_0 And so obviously if you're booking a one-off flight on an European airline that has no frequent

spk_0 flyer program, and you know, maybe that number is smaller. But for a lot of us, that number is higher.

spk_0 And so I found that we were probably doing the math wrong when people say, oh, well, I'm getting

spk_0 two cents per point. It's like, well, are you getting two cents per point? Because you really need to

spk_0 be comparing it to the net cost of your flight. And if you book a flight and then you end up getting

spk_0 5,000 miles for flying on that flight, you know, if you square it all out, I'm not going to do the

spk_0 math. I did an episode on what are points worth a few weeks ago. So in September that went through

spk_0 all the math, but I was like, ah, it's kind of interesting. And then also if you have cash and you

spk_0 need to book a hotel or a flight, you could just buy points too. So we took this amazing trip to

spk_0 Costa Rica, just my wife and I though I would encourage anyone going to this hotel to bring their

spk_0 kids. We kind of regretted not doing so. And it was the Waldorf Astoria, which sounds so fancy.

spk_0 And honestly, it was. But we booked it with points or we used free nights or

spk_0 advocates, but to use points, Hilton tells their points all the time for half a cent. So it's like,

spk_0 you could go to this website for this hotel and say, gosh, that room is $1,500. But you could buy

spk_0 the points. The day we booked it, you could have bought the points to book the same room for $600.

spk_0 And so when I started looking at things through this lens, I was like, well, yes, you can earn all

spk_0 these points on your credit card and get these awesome stays. But in a lot of times, you can buy

spk_0 the points also. And so the ceiling of the value you're getting from your points is not the value of

spk_0 the trip, right? Because if you could buy a $1,500 room for $600, then when you value your points,

spk_0 that room is not a $1,500 room, it's a $600 room. So I don't know. I was going through all this and

spk_0 and I just think that if you love the game and if you really want to optimize it and you want

spk_0 to be flexible, great, I do and I still play it. But if not, I think the opportunity cost is

spk_0 actually not as high as people think because I think the math is close. Especially with cards that

spk_0 are earning more and more cash back these days, it's not crazy for me to suggest someone who doesn't

spk_0 want to open five, six, seven cards a year to play that game. But that's the key, though, Chris,

spk_0 right? Like the not opening card because the sign up bonuses, that's where unless the math has changed

spk_0 dramatically since I've been in the game so significantly, like the sign up bonuses, that's where

spk_0 the vast majority of the value is. Are you talking about like ongoing spend? I think most people,

spk_0 I mean get excited to hear about, oh, I can open this card and get 100,000 points. And then I

spk_0 say, yeah, and you could do it 10 times a year, you know, five for you, five for your partner. And

spk_0 they're like, that's cool. And 80% of them don't want to go down that extent of the rabbit hole. So

spk_0 they're like, maybe I'll open up a new card once or twice a year, which means that most of their

spk_0 spend is not going towards a sign up bonus. Look, I will tell you, as you know, if every dollar you

spk_0 spend goes towards a sign up bonus, that is the highest ROI way to maximize your credit card spend.

spk_0 But if you're not focused on sign up bonuses and you say, you know, I've got my chase

spk_0 sapphire would prefer to reserve and I'm spending my money here or I could open up, you know, a 2%

spk_0 cashback card or if you had the assets to qualify for, you know, platinum honors status at Bank of

spk_0 America, you'd get a 2.625% back card. I don't know. I can make a case that that is for a lot of

spk_0 people going to have the best long term outcome and not leave you as stressed as you might be

spk_0 with cards and all these coupons. And if you look at the American Express Platinum Card,

spk_0 that's changing tomorrow, $895, you get your annual fee, then you've got clear credits. You've got

spk_0 Uber credits. You've got Rezzy credits for restaurants. You've got a Lululemon credit. Like, it just

spk_0 keeps going. I think you've got a Walmart plus credit. You've got the entertainment credit,

spk_0 equinox credit. It's just unbelievable how much work it can be. And sometimes I look at all of

spk_0 this and think, oh, I can get the most value out of this card. I can go shop at Lululemon and

spk_0 get some value. But at the end of the day, if you look at all these credits and ask yourself,

spk_0 what would I buy these credits for? I think that's a healthier way to frame it. And you're like,

spk_0 I know that almost no one listening would buy a, and unclear if the Lululemon credit actually

spk_0 gets added. I'm reading a rumor, right? It will know tomorrow. But if there's a $75 per quarter

spk_0 Lululemon credit, you would never buy that for $75, right? Like, it would force you to have to

spk_0 commit to spending money somewhere. So I just feel like with the fees going up, if you want to play

spk_0 the game, play the game, and you can get value, but the time spent playing the game for some people

spk_0 might not be worth it. I love it. Right? If you get joy out of it, great. But if you don't,

spk_0 I don't know, go buy the Hilton points when you want to book the Hilton Resort, go, you know,

spk_0 buy Avionca Miles, which are on sale like 20 times a year to book Star Alliance flights,

spk_0 or just go book flights in the portal, right? Like you could use the travel portals for a lot of

spk_0 these airlines and get value as well. And sure, you're not going to get the best value on Earth. But

spk_0 there's something really freeing when you're like, oh, I'm just going to pay cash. Like if anyone's

spk_0 ever bought travel for work and also played the points game, it's like, oh, it's really nice when I

spk_0 travel for work. I just look for the flight I want and I pay for it. Whereas when I travel

spk_0 personally, I'm like, how do I get these deals? How do I find the right thing? How do I use my mile?

spk_0 So I don't know. Maybe I'm still going to keep playing it. I'm still going to make content around

spk_0 it because I love it. And I think there are ways to simplify it. And I'll try to share those,

spk_0 you know, for the rest of time. But it's just I'm surprised at how much closer the math is right now.

spk_0 And I thought, if you're not going bonuses, if you're going bonuses, it's obvious. Math is in your

spk_0 favor every time. Yeah. But like you said, eight out of 10 people are not going to want to open

spk_0 X number of cards per year. So yeah, I mean, you have to talk to what are people realistically

spk_0 going to do? And yeah, I think most people want to open one zero, frankly, zero one or two cards a

spk_0 year. And yeah, that changes the calculus for sure. Do you still play the game? A little bit,

spk_0 a little bit. I've opened up a couple cards in the last couple years. But yeah, I'm more, I use,

spk_0 yeah, my chase after I preferred card for most of my, you're going to recoil. So don't yell at me

spk_0 because I haven't I haven't optimized, but I love those ultimate rewards points. So I use that.

spk_0 I have a United card that I opened last year. But yeah, otherwise, I don't know, I just, I need to

spk_0 get back into it. There have been so many great bonuses that I've seen recently. So, I don't know if

spk_0 you need to. Like if you've accepted that you're not going to be opening up lots of cards, maybe the

spk_0 answer is you need a really solid card. All that everyday spending instead of getting one point

spk_0 on that card on the chase card. Yeah, no, you're absolutely everything else card. I don't know.

spk_0 Believe me, I totally hear you. I'm actually having Devon from Point Me The First class on. I know

spk_0 you had her on a couple months back. And yeah, we're going to kind of reboot the travel rewards

spk_0 concept here at Choose If I think it's as you know, obviously, I started travel miles 101

spk_0 literally 10 and a half years ago at this point. We put like 60,000 people through that email course

spk_0 that existed back then. And literally the flexibility as you described it was quite literally less than

spk_0 number one. I think that is the key to succeeding in travel roads. And to your point, you don't have to

spk_0 be flexible on everything. You just need to be a little bit flexible. And who's more flexible than

spk_0 people in the five community, right? Like by definition, especially once you reach five, you have

spk_0 out there listening to this and say, Hey, I want to travel to Europe next fall. Well, that's

spk_0 the easiest thing in the world. That's shooting fish in a barrel. Like Chris would say, it's a

spk_0 hundred percent chance that you could go to this nebulous Europe next fall and get a trip for

spk_0 free or nearly free. Right? It's anytime because the example that I was I liked I used to like saying

spk_0 free or nearly free. Yeah. Well, now there's an opportunity cost. Yeah, like if you need a 100,000

spk_0 points to get your family to Europe and you could have otherwise had a thousand dollars. There's

spk_0 a cost. I think that cost works if you're flexible because those tickets might have been a thousand

spk_0 dollars each. So yeah, I say that. No, I think that's wise. And I think when people fabricate travel

spk_0 and then try to dilute themselves into believing that, Oh, I've earned all these points. I've earned

spk_0 all this free travel, but they wouldn't have taken it otherwise. And like that's where the opportunity

spk_0 cost comes in like that is a clear actual cost. And I think people lose side of that. But for a

spk_0 frugal person, which I know there are some of you listening like me, it's really great because

spk_0 it feels free. Right? Just because there's an opportunity cost and it's not actually free. It

spk_0 doesn't mean it doesn't feel free. And so for a lot of us, it's yes, we could have used a cashback

spk_0 card and then we could have put all that money into VTI and we could have grown our portfolio faster

spk_0 and reach my sooner. We could have. But instead we earn these points. And once their points,

spk_0 it's like converting them to cash is the worst deal. And so we've got to travel. And now it

spk_0 actually forces us to take trips because we have these points. And so as much as I will say,

spk_0 the opportunity cost exists. So you can't say they're free. I will say I love that they feel free

spk_0 because for someone like me and many people listening, it forces us to spend money on things

spk_0 that if we had cash, I'm not sure we would. I think I would own more index funds instead of

spk_0 have more experiences. And I want to tell you that's not true because I know the values I have

spk_0 should force me to do the experiences and not save the money. But playing the points game is in

spk_0 some way forced. It's like a mortgage. It's forced experiences instead of forced savings.

spk_0 Yeah. I think you're exactly right. And I think, right, again, it's easy to dilute ourselves into

spk_0 believing that we would do these things. But a lot of us are frugal in nature. And there's something

spk_0 even though clearly we would say something like a gift card. It was funny when you were saying

spk_0 the luleum and the credit. I was like, well, if you have a middle school daughter, you probably

spk_0 would pay $73.50 for a $75 credit because you're essentially guaranteed to spend it. But

spk_0 well, I could intellectually make an argument that, hey, if somebody got me a gift card too,

spk_0 let's let's talk about escape rooms. So for my birthday, somebody could hand me, let's just say

spk_0 my mom still wants to get me presents, right? Like she's she's so cute and she's still though. Like

spk_0 she could hand me $100 in cash or she could get me $100 gift card to the local escape room.

spk_0 And I would value the $100. Mom, this is not because she's listening. Don't do this, please. But

spk_0 like I would use that and I would get a ton of value out of it. And I wouldn't have gone to

spk_0 the escape room otherwise because with that $100 in the entire universe of things that I could have

spk_0 done, what would I most likely have done? I most likely would have deposited into my bank account

spk_0 and would have sat there or I would have transferred it to one of my brokerages and invested it.

spk_0 Right? So there is a forcing function about some of these things. I think that's what you're

spk_0 arguing with the points in mind. It's like it's a forcing function for saying like, hey, dummy,

spk_0 don't save that extra $1,000. When you're talking about having millions of dollars potentially,

spk_0 maybe you should travel. Maybe you should do something. Maybe you should have an experience. Maybe

spk_0 you should take that gift you got for a birthday and not just deposit in the bank but actually do

spk_0 something fun with it. Like I think Chris, this is the hard part for a lot of us. And like Pete, Mr.

spk_0 Money Mustache talks about the skill of spending. And he always talked about like there's two aspects

spk_0 of it. There's the skill of spending at the beginning of your five journey, which is optimizing

spk_0 spending. It's being frugal. It's being wiser. It's buying what you value, as I would say. But then as

spk_0 you get closer to five and at five, that skill of spending becomes a different skill altogether.

spk_0 It's a skill of spending money wisely. And it's spending it on things that you value, things that

spk_0 you that light you up, getting trips with friends or going to these escape rooms or going on rollercoaster

spk_0 trips like I do with my daughters, like you have to shift. And there is something about a forcing

spk_0 function. So yeah, I'm glad you slowed down on that because I think it's important. Yeah. So I

spk_0 would encourage everyone to just try to figure out things they want to do, book them in advance,

spk_0 and experiment, right? Doing these things, it gets easier. Like it actually is like a muscle.

spk_0 It's like, oh, we're going to practice spending money. And then you're like, oh, it's a little easier

spk_0 to spend money. Now, I'm not saying be reckless. I think I can't remember if Tyler was the one that

spk_0 said this in our interview, but it's very unlikely that someone who's very frugal will spend some

spk_0 money and then be like, oh my gosh, now I've earned all my cash. Like we're talking about learning

spk_0 and a little bit more. And it's not like it's going to change you into a reckless spender.

spk_0 No, no chance. No chance. And speaking of extra spending. So about maybe 45 minutes ago,

spk_0 you talked about you and Amy sitting down and talking about like, hey, what's the 20% we've

spk_0 caught? What's the 20% we add? Let's go back to 20% we'd add. What jumps to mind? Like are there

spk_0 things that you're you, Chris Hutchins, who has a successful business and presumably a decent bit

spk_0 of assets if I know you well over the last 20 years you've been saving? Like what are you holding

spk_0 that kind? Like are there things that even still you're too frugal on or is this more like a pie in

spk_0 the sky kind of exercise? These are going to sound so ridiculous to most people, but maybe they won't

spk_0 maybe they'll sound so relatable. We have a really loud garage door opener. Okay, but it works.

spk_0 Right? It works, but it is just obnoxiously loud. And I'm not sure if it's the springs or if it's

spk_0 the garage because it says quiet drive on it. So like you think that like that branding was gotta be

spk_0 quiet. Come on. But it is not quiet by any stretch. And I think the things that I struggle the most

spk_0 with spending are if that garage door opener broke, no problem to spend money on it. But it's a

spk_0 like I don't like that garage like I want a garage door opener that's quiet whenever I go to my

spk_0 parents house and I hear their garage door opener like, oh, it just makes me like just hate my own

spk_0 garage door opener more. This is not a $50,000 bet. This is relatively minor. And I think there's

spk_0 a lot of things in life like that that we've been talking for a while about upgrading some of

spk_0 the furniture in our house. It's like, you know, now I wouldn't say with toddlers, it's always the

spk_0 best time to upgrade furniture because we have two white couches that you know, started been destroyed.

spk_0 But I think it was shocking the actual cost of doing these things. Like it's not like our

spk_0 lavish purchases that if with all the money in the world fell in our laps, what would we buy?

spk_0 I don't want a Ferrari like I don't want a Gulfstream jet. I just want to quiet garage door opener.

spk_0 And we wanted to put this one we just solved recently. But we wanted to make the garage a gym

spk_0 that was nice. And we wanted mirrors on the wall. And we just got caught up and like, well, how

spk_0 much of the mirrors are going to cost? What do they look like? And funny enough, this is actually

spk_0 a complete contradiction to what I said recently. But we recently got the Mesa Homeowner's

spk_0 credit card. Okay. And so if anyone's not familiar, it's pretty new. And it is similar to how

spk_0 built gives you points for rent. Mesa gives you points for your mortgage, except they don't

spk_0 require you to actually pay your mortgage with the card. You just have to show them that you have

spk_0 a mortgage, upload a mortgage statement. And every month, they'll give you the number of points

spk_0 for how many dollars your mortgage payment is up to 100,000 a year, as long as you put a thousand

spk_0 dollars a month on the card. And the card earns three x points on tax payments, on home improvement,

spk_0 on daycare, all kinds of stuff. So I blog post for it. I got to referral link all the good stuff.

spk_0 But they have a $50 a quarter lows credit. And I was just like, these credits where it's like,

spk_0 that's why I have to go to lows and buy an Apple gift card and go sell the Apple gift card online

spk_0 for $45. But we were walking by lows. And I was like, well, it's the end of the quarter,

spk_0 right? It's September. I got to get in there. And then I saw these four by, I think four by

spk_0 six foot mirrors. Okay. Just loose mirrors and put the mountain on the wall. And I was like,

spk_0 I got this credit. And we just bought the mirrors, mounted them on the wall. It was like $300.

spk_0 Right. All in all the mirrors, all the mounting equipment, everything we needed minus the credit.

spk_0 It probably was less. It was probably closer to $200. Now we have mirrors on the wall in our garage

spk_0 gym. And I couldn't be happier. But it's those little things that, you know, aren't necessary.

spk_0 Like when your water heater breaks, it's really easy to replace. But when it is just like noisy and

spk_0 slow and not big enough, it's really hard. And so I think some of it is, well, it's not broken.

spk_0 Why would we fix it? And then part of it is it feels wasteful, you know, to buy something if you

spk_0 already have it, you know, it's like a new washing machine and that kind of stuff. But I can't tell

spk_0 you that every time in my life that we've spent the money to do one of these things, especially with

spk_0 how much angst you have living with this thing. Like I would love opening the, I would just sit

spk_0 and drive, opening and closing the door. Even intervention here, Chris. I mean, honestly, like,

spk_0 as soon as we get off this call, just call me what it was. Like if I could just replace the

spk_0 garage, if it was truly the garage door opener, it'd be great. But I don't know if it's those

spk_0 springs above the garage door opener. I don't know if the garage door is misaligned. If I knew the

spk_0 answer to that question, then you don't have to do it yourself because we're having an intervention.

spk_0 You live in a major metro area. Like just find a garage door company, have them come out,

spk_0 they will fix it for you. I know. I know. I do love. I get an immense amount of satisfaction,

spk_0 like DIYing projects, like real, like I enjoy it. Okay. So this is like, I want to fix it. But you're

spk_0 right. I would be so much happier if we just took care of it. Yeah. Just make the phone call.

spk_0 I know. I know. This is by the next time we do this, hopefully I have a quiet. It's not going to

spk_0 be a quiet drive because I already have one of those that it doesn't work. But yeah, so when we

spk_0 looked at that extra 20%, it was just funny that most of the things we wanted to do didn't cost

spk_0 that much money. Like they were just things that were like little luxuries that we were depriving

spk_0 ourselves of that, you know, aren't by all intents and purposes like huge luxuries. I don't know,

spk_0 I wouldn't obviously anytime I'm buying something we're going to find a deal. Like if anyone's listened

spk_0 to my show, it's like, here's the shopping portal plus the coupon plus the cashback plus this,

spk_0 so we find ways to make any of those things good deals. But we've been getting better at replacing

spk_0 them with things that we were spending money on that, you know, I don't know. It's like fine,

spk_0 but we'd rather do this other thing. Yeah. I don't know if either of us are arguing against our

spk_0 nature or that it's going to become some slippery slope and we're all of a sudden going to start

spk_0 spending Udels of money. We're not we're not arguing that we should do that or advocating to

spk_0 anybody that like, oh, all of a sudden, five just means go and spend whatever you want. Like

spk_0 you and I are wired the same way. I mean, you much more so than me obviously, but like it's fun

spk_0 to DIY. It's fun to come up with novel solutions to things or come up with like whatever that answer

spk_0 is that you think is not necessarily optimal, but like I always look for like what fits that sweet

spk_0 spot for me. And I think that's fun. I think it's intellectually stimulating. I told you I'm moving

spk_0 here shortly and part of it has been, okay, what's the best way to move? And I think there are lots

spk_0 of answers. And I think what's nice is always having in the background to any of these stressful

spk_0 situations that money always solves this. And I think that's kind of like how many times do you

spk_0 stress about something that like is easily fixable with a fairly nominal amount of money? And like

spk_0 because I suspect all the time you do that. I know I do. And it's like, but when you say like

spk_0 money solves this, that doesn't mean you go out and just throw cash around. It means to me at least

spk_0 not lowers the ambience stress because I always knew that for a couple thousand bucks, whatever it

spk_0 is, three thousand bucks, I could just hire a moving company. They could come in move and it would

spk_0 doubt be that. But we went up finding like a U-Haul. That was a really nice size. And it enabled us to

spk_0 call down some items that I had and such. And like it made it a more fun process because it actually

spk_0 got me closer to my goals, which is not owning a lot of stuff. So it was actually like this really

spk_0 wonderful forcing function again for, hey, not only am I getting a fraction of the cost and the actual

spk_0 move, but it's also furthering my goals of, I don't want to own junk anymore. So I donated a ton of

spk_0 stuff. And I am at the point where I just, I don't have that much stuff anymore. And it feels

spk_0 really liberating. So like that was a fun exercise. But I knew in the back of my mind, like if it

spk_0 ever got stressful, if I made 27 phone calls, which clearly I didn't, but like I could just hire

spk_0 a company, they could come in, I could just wash my hands of it and it would be done. And I think

spk_0 like that's a nice stress lowering mechanism that I've found is like, is this something I'm worried

spk_0 about? Is this something that I'm going to have a consternation about for the next year or two? Like,

spk_0 okay, does money solve that? Do I have money? Yes, yes. Okay, well, I don't think I need to worry

spk_0 anymore. So that doesn't mean I can't come up with this fun solution because again, you and I

spk_0 and so many people listening are going to, but it, I don't know, it's really helped me. I suspect

spk_0 that would help you too. I was going to tell you to just hire the mover when we moved to hire the

spk_0 mover and I have no regrets. I don't think I ever moved myself again. I would say you could

spk_0 hire pack and move or just move. So it was funny. We did, we will pack everything, you know, we'll

spk_0 pack most things except the kitchen. I just didn't want to have to do all the plates and all that

spk_0 stuff. And so we got the joy of, okay, we're taking this, we're not taking this. And then someone

spk_0 else came and finalized it, carried it, put it in a vehicle, moved it, and I am very glad we

spk_0 spent the money there. That one was one where I was like, it didn't even cross my mind to rent a

spk_0 U-Haul. Wow. Okay. Sometimes I don't have a problem, but most of the time I do. But one thing,

spk_0 similar to what you said, you have this thing in the back of your mind, which is, well, I know

spk_0 that there's an option if this is stressful. I did this crazy episode a while back. You might

spk_0 have listened to episode 181 with this guy Kai who runs another podcast called The Daily Turn.

spk_0 And we talked about how to make money online. And we talked about sign up bonuses, but he is kind

spk_0 of a full-time deal seeker and he finds these deals, whether it's meal kits or bank bonuses or

spk_0 credit card points and miles and sign up bonuses or anything. And he's made that a 20-hour-a-week

spk_0 side hustle and generates easily $3,000 a month. And so when I went into my kind of safe withdrawal

spk_0 calculator, I assume that in retirement, I can easily, and if you want to optimize for the 4%

spk_0 rule, here's a good to take this full circle. Let's say you can't get over, you don't want to go to

spk_0 the 5% rule, you want to use the 4% rule. Well, at least assume that you can do something to make

spk_0 $3,000 a month. So now I've learned this thing that could make me, let's call it $35,000 a year.

spk_0 And so now if I live on $100,000 a year and I make, can make 30, well now I only need enough

spk_0 savings to close the gap of 65, right? And I'm using round numbers to make this kind of more

spk_0 straightforward. But that's given me a lot of kind of relief knowing that there will always be a

spk_0 way that I enjoy to generate income if my business or my job or anything like that ever goes away.

spk_0 And so whatever that is for you, find the thing that makes the worst-case scenario better,

spk_0 and then factor that in because I imagine that let's say you want to optimize, you'd say you

spk_0 want to do all this and you're like, no, I'm okay with the risk. I want the 4% rule. I want the 98% success rate.

spk_0 That's fine. But assume that you could supplement your income a little doing something for you,

spk_0 that might be $10,000 a year, it could be 50, it could be whatever number, and factor that in as well.

spk_0 And then that 4% will still be there, but it might be more money. It might mean less money saved

spk_0 because you need less money to spend because you can supplement your income.

spk_0 My social security is online deals. That episode with Kai was a master class in how to think

spk_0 of through every category of all of them. Yeah, I remember that episode. Our mutual friend Noah

spk_0 and I have talked in real life about similar things in terms of like he's pretty sure you could make

spk_0 yeah, $30,000 with these deals or credit card bonuses and things like that. It's like,

spk_0 okay, well, is that something that I want to spend time on today? No, but it's nice having in the

spk_0 back of my mind that I could do that. And also like, percent of cases where my retirement estimates

spk_0 fail, you know, like my worst case scenario is that I have to go do this thing. Right, because that's

spk_0 like that's a significant percentage of a retirement spending, right? Like even you, you live in a very

spk_0 high cost-to-living area, you have kids, you have whatever, like I'm sure your life doesn't cost

spk_0 $50,000 a year, right? But like even if it costs $200,000 a year, right? Like $30,000 is still 15%

spk_0 that's a not insignificant amount of like if you're talking like, wow, if all goes to hell with

spk_0 my withdrawals, like I can turn this on at any moment and that's a 15% difference. Like that's

spk_0 massive. That has to, I mean, I even run the numbers, but I'd be curious to see like what that

spk_0 would take your success rate from and to it would have to get it close to 100% and that's not

spk_0 nothing. And again, this is one of those things I think so many of us think our lives cost way

spk_0 more than they do because we always think in terms of like, oh, this is what I earn, but it's such a,

spk_0 and hopefully so many of us in the five community have changed this. Like you go back and you look

spk_0 at retirement calculators, right? Like the old school retirement calculators, it starts with the

spk_0 fundamentally flawed place of like, what's my income now? And it's like, I want to tear the rest

spk_0 of my hair out. Like it has nothing to do with what you are now because even if you made $500,000

spk_0 to reach five in 20 years or 15 to 20 years, you need to save 40, 50%. You obviously have taxes,

spk_0 a significant amount of taxes built in there. Like if you make 500 grand and how many of us make 500

spk_0 grand, there's almost no way you're spending is more than 200,000. So it's like, that's actually the

spk_0 number. Now for most of us in the real world, if you make combined 150 or 200 or 180, whatever it

spk_0 is, like, your spending is only a fraction of that because by definition to get to five,

spk_0 your savings rate has to, it has to be significant. So that's why we always say like the starting point

spk_0 for five is what does my life cost? And it's nothing to do with what do I earn now? So I think so

spk_0 many people get caught up in like, oh, I've got to somehow replace all of my income and it's like,

spk_0 no, I promise you don't. I really, I absolutely promise you do not because again, savings is massive

spk_0 and your tax, your effective tax rate and your total tax liability is going to be the highest

spk_0 when you're at your highest earning years. And as we've talked because so many times on the show,

spk_0 like there's so many amazing ways to get your your money out of accounts and with the standard

spk_0 deduction, the long term cap gains rate of 0% up to like 96,000 dollars. Like so many of us are

spk_0 going to have effective tax rates in five of zero to five percent federally that like your taxes

spk_0 are essentially going to be zero. And again, that's not nothing. So like all these things, we just

spk_0 get showered with benefits as people in the five community. And it's just again, it's an interesting

spk_0 rethink. And then you say like, okay, look, maybe I'll have my mortgage paid off. Maybe I won't have

spk_0 any car payments. Like my life actually doesn't cost that much. But even if all went to hell, I could

spk_0 turn on a small amount of this income. And I would make a measurable difference. It just absolutely

spk_0 would. Yeah. So that's my new outlook on life is optimized more for doing things now. It's not,

spk_0 it's funny because it's a lot of the themes from Bill Perkins,

spk_0 Diocese zero, right? It's like go live in the now, do the things during the right season of life.

spk_0 But it's it's not that I'm now optimizing for having less money. I'm just willing to take risk

spk_0 indifferent. I'm shuffling risk around because I often think it's like, well, I'm willing to take

spk_0 on more risk. I'm not willing to take on more risk. I'm just willing to take on risk that my portfolio

spk_0 doesn't hit my goal at the, but, but I'm getting back all the risk I took that I didn't do things

spk_0 that I wanted to do. I'm getting back all the risk that I gave up time working that I didn't want to

spk_0 do. Like I'm trading risk instead of taking it on. And I think all the time, you know, I saw this

spk_0 stat today about how life expectancy would go up if autonomous vehicles replaced driving, right?

spk_0 Waymo is pretty pervasive now in the Bay Area. And they just got permission to go to the San Francisco

spk_0 airport. So a lot of Waymo's around here. And if my, my daughter looks at them and she picked up

spk_0 from a friend, they're called computer cars because there's no person driving them. But it was like

spk_0 the life expectancy would actually change in America if we had, if we had the accident rate of

spk_0 autonomous cars instead of the current accident rate. And I guess it's death rate because life

spk_0 expectancy. But that doesn't mean that we're not driving. Like we all take risk every day. We

spk_0 decide it's way more risky to not live our lives than to not drive, right? Well, it's way more

spk_0 risky to not live our lives than risking that we never run out of money. And I say never. So

spk_0 we just have to rethink risk. And I think the conversation I had with Tyler's good, I'm excited

spk_0 to hear the conversation you had with Aubrey. And I think it's just something that all of us in this

spk_0 community need to need to really push ourselves to think about. And for some people, it might not

spk_0 change anything. And for some people, it might be this giant light bulb moment. So if it is one of

spk_0 those things, I know you and I both want to hear absolutely because that's the perfect place to end

spk_0 this episode. As always, my friend. It's good to chat. These are fun conversations. I'm glad we

spk_0 recorded. So people can find you. Your podcast is all the hacks. And it's wonderful. It's one of my

spk_0 favorite podcasts. As I told you before, I listened to today's episode already by the time we're

spk_0 recording this at New and Eastern. So it literally is. Can't miss for me. Your website is chrishutchens.com.

spk_0 And is there anywhere else you want to send people? Nope. You can find everything if you search my name

spk_0 or all the hacks anywhere podcast. And then we've got a newsletter where every Saturday I send the

spk_0 all the deals and all the news and all the crazy stuff. I'm up to each week. Yeah. I emailed you back.

spk_0 That's my favorite part of the newsletter now. What's going on? So I find that there's all these

spk_0 things that a podcast doesn't afford the ability to share. Like last week I did this thing. It's like,

spk_0 well, I'm not going to do an episode about going to lows and building a mirror. But in the in the

spk_0 newsletter, I was like, here's the exact mirror I bought. Here's how much it costs and that kind of

spk_0 stuff. So it's been fun to have an outlet to share things that I just can't always fit into the

spk_0 podcast. Yeah. I love it. Awesome. All right. Well, everyone, check out Chris's podcast. Check out

spk_0 the website. Definitely sign up for the newsletter. It's something I really enjoy every day every

spk_0 every weekend. So, all right. Until next time, as always, thanks for being part of the

spk_0 Choose of my community. And thanks for listening to the show. Thank you for listening to today's

spk_0 show and for being part of the Choose of my community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get

spk_0 involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player and

spk_0 just hit subscribe. And then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday

spk_0 and write this by hand. And I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to Chooseofi.com

spk_0 such subscribe. And it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I

spk_0 would really appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit

spk_0 reply to any of those emails. And it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a

spk_0 pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsource personal finance show.

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spk_0 started with Phi or you have a family member or friend who you think would be interested,

spk_0 two easy ways. Chooseofi episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the Phi community. And even though

spk_0 it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point

spk_0 to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we

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spk_0 a better life? And then Chooseofi created a financial independence 101 course that's entirely free.

spk_0 Just head to Chooseofi.com such FI 101. And again, thanks for listening.

Are We Taking the Wrong Risks? With Chris Hutchins | Ep 567

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