Science
Afire: The 14th Victim & Missoula Fire Sciences Lab (Mann Gulch 75)
In this episode of 'Afire,' we delve into the tragic history of the Mann Gulch fire and its lasting impact on fire science. We explore the story of Harry Gizborn, often referred to as the 14...
Afire: The 14th Victim & Missoula Fire Sciences Lab (Mann Gulch 75)
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Interactive Transcript
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My name is John Norman McLean.
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A quarter century ago Bob Celi, the last living survivor of the man-gulch fire, stood roughly
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where I am today and talked about the fire that took the lives of 13 of his fellow smoke
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jumpers.
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Welcome back to a fire in our two episode series on man-gulch.
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This is part two.
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He echoed my father, Norman McLean, who predicted his book about man-gulch, young man and
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fire, that over time, memory of the fire would fade to forgetfulness.
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Last episode, we heard the story of the fire.
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And Dodge, without a word to anyone, kneels down and with matches from a book of paper
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matches, starts lighting these matches and throwing them into grass.
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And they catch quickly, burns out about a 10 foot by 10 foot little area.
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Dodge jumps over the top of the flames into that burned grass, turns to the guys that
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are still around him and says, up this way and he's waving his arms up this way.
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Today, we'll follow this fire to the science and scientists that have been shaped by
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its mysteries, into the future of fire that they shaped today.
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Man-gulch remains with us, in part, because of two enduring mysteries.
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How did the fire which burned on a ridge top, fire from the Missouri River, get below
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them, down by the river in the bottom of man-gulch, and second, did the escape fire lighted by
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by Waiig Dodge, the crew boss, which was intended to save the man, instead impede the crew
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and contribute to their deaths.
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There are various answers, none of which have achieved universal acceptance or are likely
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to, and unsolved mysteries are the lifeblood of legend.
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One of the things that I see the success of the Fire Lab is that we have a whole bunch
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of Waiig Dodge's.
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There are these people who are not afraid of failure.
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Their reputations are often on the line, their scientific reputations are on the line,
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and they try things.
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Sometimes crazy things.
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When I talked about the mysteries with Sarah Brown, program manager at the Mizzula Fire
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Sciences Laboratory, which was founded partly as a consequence of man-gulch, she remarked,
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they are part of the mystique that keeps us learning from the fire.
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In the end, a lot of innovative science has come out of efforts that are very similar
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to the way Waiig Dodge handled that moment, and I think that's where a lot of our powerful
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scientific products ultimately have their roots.
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Just like we did last episode, we're going to start today with an initial spark, a single
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individual that changed the field forever.
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The man sometimes identified as the 14th victim of man-gulch, Harry Gizborn, who was
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been called the first fire scientist, added another mystery when he hiked into the gulch
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in November after the fire.
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The stars came out, nothing moved on the game trail.
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The great Missouri, passing below, repeated the same succession of corps, yet probably
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will play for a million years to come.
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The only other motion was the moon floating across the lenses of Gizborn's glasses,
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which at last were unobservant.
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To start us off today, David Turner will once again tell us a story, a quick story of Harry Gizborn's last day.
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Then, two scientists, Sarah Brown, and Colin Hardy.
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My two brothers and I learned a lot about man-gulch, never really learned much about my dad's personal experience in the recovery side.
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But it became obvious to us that that's kind of where he got his passion for fire.
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Colin and Sarah will take us from Gizborn's days to today.
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Through the building, Gizborn and man-gulch helped to build.
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We call this our combustion chamber.
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All steel walls, 70 feet high.
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This stack is movable, it goes up and down, you can put it all the way down on the deck if you want.
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Just a giant steel box with a smokestack in the top.
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Colin is the former head of the Missouri Fire Sciences Lab, and he gave me a tour the day after the 75th anniversary back in August.
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His father, Mike, worked there before him, and today, Sarah Brown is the leader of the lab.
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But before we get to the lab, the story of Harry Gizborn, the 14th victim of the 13th fire, whose final hours were the early hours of all of Forest Service Fire research.
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Enjoy.
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October of that year, 1949, Bob Janssen, the fire boss and the district ranger, received telephone calls from Harry Gizborn.
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Harry Gizborn was an early fire researcher working for the Forest Service out of Missoula.
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And Harry had some theories about what caused this fire to blow up as it did.
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And he wanted to come over to hell and then have Bob take him up into the fire so he could ground truth some of his theories about what happened and why it happened.
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But Bob was aware that Harry had a history of heart problems.
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So he was not enamored with the idea of taking Harry up into this country, giving him how steep and rugged it was.
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So he sent Harry maps, photographs, statements with the hopes that Harry might be able to take this information and not need to come over to Helna.
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But Harry insisted that he needed to go into the fire and test some of his theories about fire worlds and so on there.
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So on November 9th, he comes over from Missoula and Bob loaded him in his Jeep, took him up to the edge of the fire.
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And Bob's strategy was to walk Harry short distances and then engage him in conversation while Harry would catch his breath and get a little rested and then they'd go on again.
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And they do that all day long and Harry is just in his element there.
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He had this theory about fire worlds and whether they went clockwise or counterclockwise, etc. there.
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And apparently what he saw in evidence up there in the Gulf kind of blew his theory apart. But he was happy about that.
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At any rate, this is November. So it's starting to get dark in the afternoon and Bob finally says, okay, we need to head back.
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So they head back out of there and they get to a point where they're above the Missouri on this big slope that runs right down to the river and they're on a game trail.
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And Harry's done fine up to this point. But Harry says, let's take a break here.
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So they both sit down on this game trail that runs horizontally across that grease slope.
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And all of a sudden Harry just both stands upright and then tips over with what would be a fatal heart attack.
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Bob, not having a lot of medical experience, didn't know if Harry was dead or alive, unlushened his tie, his neck tie, which he was wearing, and then went for help.
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And within fairly short order, he runs into a ranch hand from a local ranch and tells him he's got a guy down and he needs a sheriff and the lenin ambulance doctors, etc.
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And he's going back to Harry. And so he does. He turns back.
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The ranch hand becomes confused about where Bob is talking about. And so he sends the rescue party to the wrong drainage and they're mucking around.
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They can't find him and Bob goes back to where Harry's laying on the ground, takes Harry's glasses off, covers him, Bob covers him, is starting to rain,
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covers Harry with his jacket, his field jacket, and sets there in the rain.
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And it takes Sheriff's Department until 9-something in the evening before they finally arrive.
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And the nightmares that troubled Bob sleep from the fire itself, having Harry die on his hands.
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Bob screams the family, his family awake again that night with Harry's death.
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I learned about Harry Gizborne quite late in my career.
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What I will say about him is in many professions, there are those early adopters, those pioneers, those people who were just a little bit out of the box, and were on to something new and stuck with it and went and did it.
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And I think he was one of those people, right? He was a pioneer that created this sort of explosion of fire science that now created all these languages of important science.
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And I don't think a lot of places have that history or that legacy.
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I see people come into the building every day and that I'm sitting and talking to you from, it's because they're trying to not have another man gulch, right?
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Everything they're doing is to support the people on the ground that I used to be one of, right?
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And so it's a very powerful, very real career that ties to great people like Gizborne and every day firefighter you never meet like me.
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We call this the Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory. One of three laboratories that the Forest Service built dedicated to wildland fire research.
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This building was built and dedicated in 1960.
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The day of the dedication I was the little seven year old sitting out in a chair watching the dedication, watching all the antics when the podium caught on fire because the PA system malfunctioned and the chief had to move away.
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But my dad would bring me out here as they were building this place. And of course he was proud because he knew this was going to be his next posting.
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My father was actually a forestry on the Idaho Panhandle and after World War II he went back to Michigan to get a master's degree on the GI Bill.
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When he came back, didn't literally have his current position, but they had to honor his their commitment to him as a career.
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And in 1949 they asked him to be the crew leader on a new research team studying the efficacy of using helicopters for fire management and fire suppression.
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They took him out to Moose Creek in the sewage and worked out of there that whole summer and began to get interested in fire weather and certainly interested in using helicopters.
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And the radio rang one day on August 6th asking him to bring his helicopter crew to Helena for what they were told was a rescue mission and they learned it was a recovery mission.
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Do the body evacuation recovery?
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I started fighting fire in 1997 and the next year after I'd fought one season of fire I read the Norman McLean book Young Men and Fire about Man Gulch.
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At the time when I read the book in 1998 I was very focused on the fire fighter aspect and it was formative in my mind about smoke jumpers which later in my fire career I became a smoke jumper and so I had jumped for five years in my last jump.
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I was critically injured and ended up amputating my leg after a midair collision with my jump partner from my perspective while I was physically very hurt my jump partner for example was thankfully not physically hurt but I think much more psychologically impacted because he was involved in this accident.
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And so I watched as I was physically healing my family my friends fellow smoke jumpers my jump partner who's involved in the actual accident this ripple effect of secondary trauma secondary effects be something that was really impactful to people that I really cared about and I think the country was a second victim of man Gulch and a lot of questions were being asked how could this happen to our best trained aerial firefighter resources.
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If it can happen to them it can happen to anybody and so there was this question being asked and one of the things that scientists do are looking for good important questions and especially federal scientists who have a mind about management of our lands they grabbed a hold of that question here it is born was the main person at that time and ask what do we know about this event and really desperately wanted to be able to explain it.
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Which is why he wanted to go to the man go site to see if his hypothesis held water and unfortunately he got there and so the question didn't go away like how can we avoid how can we not have man goal to be every year if we're going to keep having.
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We're going to be having fires that we have firefighters on and so the question grew and grew an importance and grew up to the congressional level which was maybe we should establish an actual permanent research fixture to study this very thing proposal started formulating and that's actually how the mesulifier sciences lab came to be.
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A man goal strategy was a weekly if not more often kind of subject that came up around our household so we all my two brothers and I learned a lot about man goal.
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Never really learn much about my dad's personal experience in the recovery side but it became obvious to us that that's kind of where he got his passion for fire especially for fire weather.
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Because he wanted to create systems that would help people avoid things like the tragedy.
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The other big imperative for my dad came from the fact that he was very familiar with Harry Gismorne was sort of working under Harry's shop in the regional office.
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Harry was originally hired to work out a priest river where the force was as an experimental station and a lot of fire tower and a lot of instrumentation.
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And so after this helicopter thing it was Harry Gismorne that got my dad engaged in that other thing and in 53 or so he began to develop new instruments to set up fire weather stations all over the country.
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I didn't get into fire until honestly my master's degree at the University of Washington learned about fuel management and forest management started working for the Pacific Northwest Research Station and prescribed fire research.
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I ended up here in 92 and had a job as a junior scientist and a senior scientist and a team leader and a project leader and then took over the responsibility of the management side of this place as the program manager the job that Sarah Brown now has.
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In the early days of the lab it's one thing to get funding congressional support to fund the creation of a facility like the fire lab that has the facilities to really in depth study the combustion process or the behavior of fire.
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And in new ways it's another to find the right kind of scientists to do the work and it's a very long term proposition all the way through right so in the early days scientists were hired from other scientific organizations and they started working on first fire spread and a national fire danger rating system.
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So like smokey the bears are points to low danger monitor danger extreme danger right so behind smokey's arm where it points is a whole bunch of science that was born out of the Missouri fire sciences lab.
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One of the fascinating personal stories that my dad tells about Harry was his development of a fire danger meter which Harry remembered photographers used to have light meters exposure meters that you probably work with.
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And Kodak even had a little dial between f-stop and speeds and this was an analog device with a little slide rule on it and Harry said that's the model that he wanted to hit.
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In order to have it in your shirt pocket and use relative humidity and temperature and wind speed and lightning and how many people are in the woods and slide it around and come up with some evaluation that says today is such and such of our behavior.
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So he held a little workshop at Priest River in Northern Idaho with a bunch of rangers and fire people and meteorologists and they just sort of did a skunk work so what should we pay attention to the number of people out there today because that raises the ignition probability and the wind and how far can you see.
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And I think the story was I don't remember how many people there were 11 people and one named Jim beam. So they had a bottle of bourbon on the table and they skunk worked through this and developed model one of about 13 versions of the fire danger meter by working together sort of appeared a pure expert basis.
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In the early days after 1960 which the lab was called the Northern Forest Fire Laboratory. There were a team of scientists that took from about 1960 when the doors opened to 1972 to establish and develop the very first fire spread model which was developed by Dick Rothermel.
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And that model is still in use today in a lot of tools. It also is the backbone for the national fire danger rating system where smoky's arm points.
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It's been embedded in all kinds of things many things that firefighters know about but probably don't know the science behind.
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And so moving forward from that point this Rothermel spread equation that's been really fundamental to everything that we do understanding fire behavior.
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We knew it wasn't perfect. We knew we would have to invest to get it to the next platform to get it to perform better.
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And so what we have continued to do is work on some of those same questions that were originally asked about how does fire spread and we are still learning some fundamental physics around fire.
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And we are at a place where still today the same combustion chamber that Dick Rothermel used to address a bunch of fundamental fire questions and build that first fire spread model is now being used to ask more and more and more complex questions with the intention of building a new fire spread model that will come out hopefully not too far in the future.
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And we've also built a bunch of other programs and expanded the amount of research that's happening including firefighter safety built numerous firefighters safety tools and primarily safety zones and escape routes.
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We have other scientists Natalie Wagenbrenner and Jason fourth over who are working on numerous tools that are intended to help support firefighters safety.
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We have a whole team of folks called the Waland fire management RDNA. Their job is to support the Waland fire decision support system which provides modeling capabilities to try to understand what fires are going to do so that fire managers can decide make the best decisions possible understanding what will come down the pike in terms of weather forecast and fire behavior.
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So we have a bunch of tools with new science but also based on some old science from that early investment that has ties back to man goals.
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It sounds a little crass but you don't get burned up if you don't go to the fire or if you go at the wrong time. And so one of our efforts out of here has been to stand up organizations like human factors and organizations and other groups.
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Not directly associated with the fire lab but are looking at the social and decision making context crew cohesion.
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We talked about Wagged Dodge really wasn't early around the train easy was off to another work some people didn't know him of course it's hard to trust somebody you don't know.
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Part of what Sarah Brown and some of her predecessors worked on and decision making was how can we learn from this without threatening the witness.
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So they quit calling it an investigation quit really calling it a review and really try to call it a learn there are no different number and facilitated learning analysis critical response protocols those things that take the victims and the survivors welfare to heart and not threaten them because you can't learn if you're worried about being threatened.
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And they learned that from the airline industry cockpit team cohesion how do they make decisions in crises and they have protocols and they work they know each other they trust each other they have checklists and they use them.
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One of the newer pieces of research out of this lab here spearheaded first with Jack Cohn and then Brett Butler is to determine the physical size of a safety zone that it would take to get a certain number of people safe if you got a squad of five or a crew of 20 or a division of 100 the safety zone has to get bigger and they actually created one of those in Arizona.
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And it was about a 200 acre clear cut and the forest supervisor flew over that said what is that? Well that's a safety zone.
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In theory that's what it takes to keep our firefighters safe on your fires so that was a real eye opener.
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While the lab got its roots from a terrible accident mangulch and we've largely focused a lot of resources time people amazing this on new fire spread model understanding fire behavior fire fighter safety which logically follows from mangulch.
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One of the earliest projects that the scientists at the lab undertook was called the white cat study and the white cat study who can follow very clearly the lineage of this effort to today's forest service while fire crisis strategy fire scientists at the lab had partnered with some of the forest managers on the subway bitter route and there had been long before this time period understanding the fires part of the natural ecosystem.
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And we had gone through this to heavy fire suppression era especially after the 1910 fires we had survived through the 10 and policy which would require firefighters to put out fires by 10 in the next day this very focused effort on suppressing fires.
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And these scientists at the lab and the managers in the subway bitter route wilderness wanted to test out and see could our landscape benefit from managing fires not suppressing them and so through many activities and negotiations the scientists were actually able to in partnership with the forest managers to monitor some of the very first fires and understand and study the role the ecological role that fire plays.
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And so from a very early time on in the lab one of the main focus areas of our science has been understanding fire ecology how fires burn in different ecosystems what happens after the fire effects after fires go through and so we have been very heavily invested in understanding fuel treatments and those fuel treatments have included both mechanical thinning as well as prescribed fire.
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So a lot of the underpinning work the underpinning philosophy of one of the big efforts at the forest service has undertaken now called the wildfire crisis strategy where we are really trying to understand how to get a hold of the crisis that we find ourselves in with these large uncontrollable fires and smoky skies every summer is based on the research that came out of the lab that started in the early 70s here in Montana.
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Understanding the role that fire needs to play naturally in these ecosystems and so a lot of the fuel treatment efforts the fire sheds that the wildfire crisis strategy is based on a lot of the underpinnings for this strategy that we have in place now come from those early roots which tie actually back to mangled because the lab was created to study fire science.
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So even by the mid 60s you know five years after it was dedicated the lab was producing papers on prescribed burning and prescribed burning guidelines and the effects of prescribed fire.
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Another big one early on was called project sky fire is about lightning and the notion at the time would be perhaps there were mechanical ways to adjust or mitigate lightning before it struck and that led to cloud seating to try to take the energy out of the atmosphere before it had unintended consequences like starting starting fires.
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Another area that later came on board here was really more about fire ecology and then find the final big area that started in the late 80s and early 90s was fire chemistry and smoky missions work here.
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So the three sort of pillars of work in the last 30 years here have been fire behavior fire ecology and fire effects prescribed fire and then smokey missions and smoke characterization work.
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To this day this program called the fire fuel and smoke science program here in this building has I think five sort of mission areas or strategic areas and fire behavior fire effects fire chemistry fire applications developing new models and systems and tech transfer knowledge delivery the kind of work that you work on.
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So Mark Finney is the research for us who is leading a team of people to build a new fire spread model he has a fairly large team Jason forthover is very involved as I mentioned Natalie has also been involved with this serum a callister has been a part of that team.
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Those are some of the primary folks that are thinking about the very fundamental fire science the physics of how fire is burning they have partnered with external folks like Google to actually create this new tool that hopefully will be out sometime relatively soon.
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And they worked really hard to try to make sure that when it is ready for prime time that it will be tested and really usable really accessible for what is needed for fire managers and fire fighters they want to make sure the sciences solid they tested it verified everything is there that they are very comfortable with that which is no small feet right they're basically taking something very simple and layering tons and tons of tons of complexity on it.
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But from the model that they've been working with to date I've heard second hand and I've seen with my own eyes that some of the physics that they now better understand will actually explain a bunch of things about how fire works that likely will be very intuitive to people who spend time in the field on wildfires or prescribed fires they're going to be able to look at the flames and be like oh my gosh this new thing that came out actually explains this thing that I've seen my entire life and never thought of in that way.
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So that's really exciting and whenever there's a big change from what we used to use to something new like this we have layers and layers of things that need to take place so not only do they need to be happy with the physics happy with the science and get it published and peer reviewed journals.
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They also need to make sure that the model is going to be functional for people like me who are not techy types right they need to make sure that it's fast that it doesn't take overnight to run and this is one of the reasons that they've been partnering with other folks like Google to make sure that the model is able to be absolutely used by people like me.
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Another piece is we have to be very ready to be able to once it's out and available everybody is going to want to use this and so we have to be very thoughtful about how are we going to build it into all of the existing tools how are going to transition away from the old model to the new model and physically put it into new tools or old tools.
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We need to then make sure that we have training ready for all of our fire personnel to understand all the physics because it's great to stand there and hear Mark and his team describe to you the physics right that's amazing and I'm like oh I totally see it I get it but Mark and his team are going to be there to explain to every single user and so we have to make sure that the training is ready for prime time.
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And we have to make sure that all of those pieces aligned well right so it's not just as simple as being like all right they published a thing here's a tool but it is going to look pretty user friendly it is going to be embedded in a lot of I believe familiar tools that a lot of fire managers are already using and I believe it's going to create new tools that we have not seen yet that just take time and partnership to be able to build.
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Science like this takes a long time to take it from what Dick Rothmell created with empirical measurements to adding a fully physics based fire spread model it's a huge lift and it's taken a lot of time and energy I also want to make sure that we give a shout out to all of the support professionals from creating the equipment that we use in the combustion chamber are metal and wood fabricators to a giant team of support staff that we are going to use.
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So I think it's going to be a great opportunity to come together to work on that problem so timeline.
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I'm not going to give you one for all of that but I believe we're very much on the cusp in in a very short amount of time to have the actual product together and then I think it'll be several years before we get all the training in line the tools retooled with the new information so this is not going to be an overnight process at all.
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Developing a new fire behavior model it isn't their objective to throw everything in and make a model it's to learn the first principles of how fire transfers for one particle to the next people go my god you don't know that after a hundred years of fire and 115 years well know they are discovering things here that would be prize worthy in the 50s or 60s in terms of kind of unique curiosity.
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Trying things and documenting making them repeatable so they pass the scientific muster so it takes patience.
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When I was at grad school in Seattle we actually the grad students all went down to the capital in Olympia to protest the possibility of decreased funding for state agencies and state schools.
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And this gold curmudgeon came up and said we don't need this science what is that and one of the guys with me pointed to the radial tire on this guy's guys and where do you think your tire came from.
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This was from basic research.
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I really see this as doing science in the way that it in my mind is really intended right kind of a moonshot big goal breaking it down into pieces trying to leverage all the resources that are needed to create something of this magnitude that likely given the history of using a model from 1972 to today I suspect this new model will be in use for a very long time as well.
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But we certainly hope the next generation will improve on that model going forward.
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I will use a bad analogy I will attempt to use a bad analogy of building a house of really cool amazing mega house.
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I think that we have done an excellent job over the years of assembling all the parts that we need to put together into building this ultimate house.
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We have created all kinds of fundamentals we've poured the concrete for the footers right we've assembled all the parts we have all the wood there for the framing we have the roofing materials and what we're doing now.
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And I think it will come together fast as house builds often do is taking all those different parts that we've learned over these decades and putting them together ultimately with the goal of having a usable magnificent house.
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And I think that we are there we have a lot of partnerships and relationships within the agency and outside of the agency to make sure that we build the house well so that it comes out as amazing as possible.
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But at the same time it's a lot of work to assemble all of those parts and it's going to take some time but I think in the end we are going to look back and be able to point out all the efforts that it took to get all the equipment there to build the house and what it took to put it all together.
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And then in the end say wow we're so glad that we took the time to do that because we have a much better usable tools that managers and the public can use to be safe in this time of climate change and increasing fire.
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That's what I think the future looks like for us.
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Speaking of houses next episode we're going to explore another lab the forest products lab as we travel the three different labs and our three final episodes of a fire.
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But we're going to take a couple weeks off for the holidays so see you back in January for more forest cast.
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This episode was produced written and edited by me John Yales my editors at USDA Forest Service Research and Development were Suzanne Flory and Jessica Burwin.
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If you got feelings about these episodes questions ideas whatever you can email me directly at Jonathan. Yales at USDA.gov.
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It's in the description of this episode.
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And remember we need you to do one thing if you haven't already done it. Please give forest cast a five star rating interview on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Just give us five stars wherever you listen to us so more people can find the show. Thanks.
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Music this episode was produced by Blue Dot Sessions.
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In this podcast is produced by the Forest Service, an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which is an equal opportunity provider, employer and lender.
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Thanks for listening and see you after the holidays for more forest cast.