Science
Addiction
In this episode of the John Oliver Podcast, John and his son Eli delve into the complex topic of addiction, exploring personal experiences and societal perceptions. They discuss the impact of early an...
Addiction
Science •
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Interactive Transcript
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This is the John Oliver Podcast.
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Our goal is to help you think outside of the box or motivate you to pursue your goals.
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This is John Oliver.
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Thank you for listening to the John Oliver Podcast.
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As always, I'm joined by my son, director and producer Eli.
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How's it going?
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Doing well?
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Good good.
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What do you think about how you overheard some of the prep from today's show?
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What do you think?
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I'm excited to hear about that research.
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Sounds good.
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Yeah, we did some research again on the Skinner Box, the 1960s stuff.
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So let me tell you what we're talking about today.
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We're going to talk about today addiction.
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Not a great, fuzzy topic to talk about, but I wanted to talk about this because I encountered
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a longtime friend that I discovered.
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I've talked to him for a very long time.
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I discovered that they have a drug problem and he calls himself an addict.
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It all flashed back of everything, of how I was brought up, and my whole perception, and
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that's where I want to talk about today.
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I don't want to get a textbook definition of being an addict or addicted to something,
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but here's my childhood of when I first heard the term and figured out what it was.
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And it was from the television, unfortunately.
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And this was a commercial back in the 80s.
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And you set the scene for you.
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It was pretty simple.
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It was like 15 seconds.
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I don't think it was a 30 second spot, but it was like 15 seconds.
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And they put it in the perfect spot because back in the day, you just sit down with your
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family and turn it into one of the big four or three networks and watch a show.
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And it was right in between.
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And this was a cast iron pan, I believe.
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And you could tell that there was little butter or oil or something in the pan from a cook's
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perspective.
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And then a tagline came up and it says, this is your brain.
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And it was a hand holding an egg.
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And then they cracked the egg and hit the frying pan out of the distance.
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It wasn't like it.
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They just put it in there and tried not to break the yolk.
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They cracked it from a distance and the egg splattered in the pan.
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And it immediately hit that oil and just started frying instantly.
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The yolk turned white.
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You could tell that it stopped drifting and it just turned to harden up.
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And this is your brain.
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This is your brain on drugs.
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So being a kid, that was massively impactful because this commercial was run over and over
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and over and over again.
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And so my perspective of that was, oh my gosh.
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If I do drugs, I'm going to fry my brain.
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And you can't put the egg back in the shell.
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And I'm thinking, anybody that I know is doing drugs.
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If I see drugs, I'm going to stay away from this stuff because it's irreversible that
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there's no antidote.
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And also, I'm getting this from a 15-second spot.
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And it was impactful and I think it achieved whoever created that spot.
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It achieved the goal.
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So growing up, I had a couple of family members, different time periods of my life that were,
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that could be considered an addict.
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One was alcohol, maybe some drugs I don't know about.
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And the other one was definitely drugs.
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And I made choices growing up.
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The first one, I think I was too young to make any choices that were made for me.
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And the second one was all me.
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And I wish I could go back and change how I handled the situation.
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Because at first, I jumped in with both feet and was like, I'm going to help this person.
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I'm going to do everything I can.
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And I got burned.
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And then I jumped back in again and tried to do all I can to help this person.
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And I got burned.
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And I jumped back in and tried to help this person.
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And it affected my kids.
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And then I'm done.
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Hands up, done, pulled away, and have been pulled away to date.
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You know, my son's 16, my daughter's 20.
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So it's been a long time.
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And this person could still be in it.
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I don't know.
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And my mindset is skewed because of that.
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But that's why I want to talk about this.
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And you know, I'm a movie buff and I'm a show buff, you know, good flicks.
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And there was a show.
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And this was like a storyline in the show.
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And this this really hit home for me.
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And it was talking about being an addict.
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And here's how the little anecdote goes.
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So this guy's walking on the street when he falls in a hole.
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The walls are so steep, he can't get out.
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So he stuck a doctor passes by and the guy shouts up says,
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Hey, can you help me out?
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The doctor writes a prescription throws it down in the hole and moves on.
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Then a priest comes along and the guy shouts up father.
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I'm down in this hole.
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Can you help me out?
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And the priest writes out a prayer and throws it down into the hole and moves on.
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Then a friend walks by.
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Says, Hey, Joe, it's me.
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Can you help me out?
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And the friend jumps on the hole.
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And the guy says, Are you stupid?
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Now we're both down here.
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And the friend says, Yeah, but I've been down here before and I know the way out.
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Well, I've never been an addict.
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I've never had that issue.
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You know, I'll take the the president Clinton approach and I did not inhale.
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No, no, I didn't I didn't mess with the stuff.
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Again, the the spot commercial affected me dramatically.
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So I didn't touch the stuff.
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But with with those two people and the ones specifically in mind that were family members,
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I wish I would have jumped in the hole.
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And you can maybe say I did a few times there before you know, before I get burned.
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Then you know, you know, I got to protect your kids.
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You got to protect your family.
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And yeah, but I could have done that from a distance or.
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You know, as a kids grow older and able to make good decisions for themselves.
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And not put them in any situation relative to this person and then jump back in and help them out.
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And I just never did that.
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So it made me start digging into some research.
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So the first one as we talked about in the beginning of this was the Skinner box.
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Back in the 1960s, they did this study on rats on an addiction.
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Now they use the Skinner box for a slew of different studies.
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So if you do the research on it, you know, they're not all the same.
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And the box is still named the same because it's named after the doctor who created the box.
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So let me envision this for you.
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Try to help you envision this.
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Think of it just a metal box with a simple rat.
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And there is, you know, this is a little exaggerated, but I'm trying to draw a picture for you.
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No windows, no, no carpet on the floor, no tile, just a metal floor, four metal walls and a metal ceiling.
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And there's a lever on the wall.
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And the lever is you push the lever down and it spits out a pellet and the rat eats the pellet.
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Now the lever only works on the pellet like every 12 hours.
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So they taught the rat to feed himself.
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And then on either wall, there's a water bottle.
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One water bottle just has clean water.
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And you know, the typical straw that comes down and you've got to lick it and, you know, gravity pulls it out, blah, blah.
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And on the other wall is water laced with, let's just call it a drug.
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Heroin, whatever cocaine, whatever.
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Then when I see, well, how long will it take the rat or will the rat immediately go and say, hey, there's got drugs in it and then just drink from there.
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And I'm going to, I don't want to butcher this.
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So I'll just say they were surprised in that it took a long time for the rat to go to the drugs.
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But then over time, after drinking several things of water and several days going by weeks, I'm not sure exactly.
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It's been a while since I did the research.
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The rat finally go into the drugs.
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But then I think, you know, how, how, we relate that to today.
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So if we have a drug user or an addict that we throw in jail, what are we doing?
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From our law enforcement, it's not, you know, metal walls and ceilings and four walls of metal that, you know, we got bars and concrete.
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But it's kind of the same thing.
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And so it gives me that thought of for drug use or drug users, I have an addiction problem is incarceration of remedy to it.
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And like we say on this show, my, my, I'm just, all I want to do is open your mind, make you think of something in a different way.
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In a positively impact you, I'm not saying change your mind.
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And this is how you think. I'm just saying, hey, this is what I found.
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This is what I think. This is how it's affected me. I'm just sharing.
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So if we incarcerate people for drug use and their addicts, and that's really crime, there's nothing else that goes with it.
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Is that the best use of, of our funds to do that?
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So start me, you know, digging into this a little more.
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So this research was actually duplicated in the, I've once said late 80s, maybe early 90s in Canada, they took the same Skinnerbox approach.
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And they changed it and they altered it. They did an A and a B. So they did the control just like the original Skinnerbox to see how long it would take the rat to go to the drugs.
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And then they changed it. So I'm going to draw a picture for you again.
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Let's take that same metal box, except this time, let's triple it or quadruple it in size.
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And let's add some Shag carpet. Let's add some wallpaper.
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Let's put a window in so they can see the sunrise and sunset.
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Let's put a little wheel in there so they can get some exercise.
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Let's put a little cardboard cut out a couple of rooms in there with some little arched doorways so they can go from room to room.
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And then let's add some rats to it.
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So they're not in there by themselves.
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And then let's do the lever with the pellet and let's do the two water bottles, clean water and drug water.
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And let's see how long they take before they go to the drugs.
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And you know what happened? They never, they tasted it, found out that there was drugs in it or it was the bad water and they never went to it, ever.
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So to me, just a simple study that makes me think, well, if you have a place you can call your own, if you have company to keep you busy, if you have exercise, if you have personal space, and maybe that's a remedy.
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And that's not, that doesn't say that that one of those things is the opening factor, but it's different than four metal walls and no other choice and nothing else to do besides hit the drugs.
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There's no offense. It's like how long is it before if you were put in that same situation and you're the rat and you're stuck in there and there's seemingly no end in sight and you have no idea what date is, what time it is as a rat.
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I mean, as if you're in jail, it's different, but how long does it take you to hit the drugs? I'm just saying that's the, I'm thinking I'm going to be just like the first rat.
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I don't see how I would be any different. Maybe not to the degree or the magnitude or the amount maybe, but I'm definitely probably going to try it. There's nothing else to do.
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So, so it could sort of be digging into it. So let's, I was thinking, well, what is the medical terms for how this is and how it's treated and things like that and turns out there's three.
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So, the question still out, is this a specific definable phenomenon being adict or is it just a moral deficit or a personal fall from grace?
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So, the three choices that this can be is it, it's a disease, it's a choice or is it self-medication? So, if it's a disease, now these are all have researchers involved in this that come up with this information and doctors do the research and brain disease.
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It's treated just like heart disease, diabetes and some forms of cancer and that treatment, there's no cure. There's treatment, but there's no cure.
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And it is proven that depending on a certain amount, whatever that is, it changes the brain and it's irreversible.
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And the parts of the brain that it changes is process for rewards and valued outcomes. It changes the anticipating the reward and motivating us to go after rewards.
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That's the part of the brain that it affects and that seems like a vicious circle there that if depending on why you're doing drugs or alcohol, that this might spiral you out of control.
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So, the brain change is an underlying cognitive control, delayed gratification, abstract skills, being able to compare and predict things and selecting best choices are some of those things with the brain changes.
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And it, like I said, the cause of it is the overexposure to a drug or whatever and then like I said, there's no cure.
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And that's where you can't tell that to somebody that's an addict like, oh, well, that's the egg in the frying pan. Well, once you're in, you're done.
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But the big part about it being a disease is that if you have insurance, guess what? It's a disease. It's covered. So you get treatment and you get treatment and treatment and treatment and treatment.
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And depending on what side of the rock you fall on of how you feel about continuous treatment of that type, then you might say it's a scam.
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The doctor's figured out that they get an addict that there's no scam and it's that ambulance chaser of, well, I can just put them on the books and all this bleeding for all their insurance is worth for this year and then haven't come back next year.
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Depending on how you look at it, I'm not saying all doctors like that, but it's out there. I can just say trust me, it's out there, but that I don't like when people say that, but it's got to be out there.
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So the other one's talking about choice. So the choice researchers on this are behavioral economics, a blend of social psychology with some economic thinking.
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So the cause of a choice is a good choice considered rationale in the short run. So they're choosing to do this. It's a pleasure.
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A relief from something seems to outweigh other choices in the matter. And then like I said before, it seems like a spiral effect. So if you do this to relieve something, it's then it's going to spiral out of control.
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And that's how you become an addict in my opinion. It's an indulgement, indulgement. And I'm not saying that right.
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You indulge in this because makes you feel good and you become selfish with it. And like what makes me feel good, doesn't matter what the ramifications are, I'm going to do it because it feels good.
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And then one of the possible causes of this is environmental or economic conditions. So they would say, you know, those that are in poverty or in social isolation will choose to do drugs. And it's the choice to do drugs.
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And then the cure to choice is stop doing it. When conditions change with time and circumstances, so do choices. So basically it's to just stop. And I can stop.
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But the problem with this is with choice, it's not a disease. And to stop the spiral, you can't back out of it. You're stuck. You don't get treatment. So it's all on your own. You got to stop cold turkey on your own. And I know a few smokers that I've, that I've quit, tried to quit. And boy, that's, that's just cigarettes granted.
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You're addicted. But boy, seeing them try to stop and on their own, that's tough. You know, I've seen them go through gum and patches and psychological stuff. And what's the, what's the hypnotist kind of thing, try to quit smoking.
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But anyway, so the last one is self medication. And this is a developmental thinking researchers are basically it's, it's psychology partly from medicine and partly from sociology.
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The cause of this is usually bases down from childhood. So this is, he developed emotional problems that erode the sense of well being. And then you learn to try to cope basically using different things. And then drug is the what gets you gets you out of it.
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Or it could not only trauma or childhood, it could be trauma, not just childhood and developing emotional problems, but it's trauma.
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Kind of the same but different. And that would be, you know, a psychological thing or sexual thing that happened to you, not only not just as a child, but any period in life.
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PTSD, post-traumatic stress syndrome, anxiety and depression, that torre type of thing. So people think, well, I'll just do this, drink drugs, whatever it is to be an addict or addicted to something that they're self medicating. And it helps for, you know, a brief time or leaves the stress, makes them feel better and until doesn't.
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So there's those are three choices. So there is no one cure all there is there's nothing there. There's no definite choice. You can see going YouTube and here, you know, well known doctors argue both sides are all three points on this.
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But again, there's no default, you know, it's it's not a moral deficit. It's not a personal fall from grace. It's not a specific defundable phenomenon. And then what the heck is it? So let me give you. So this is one of the last things I did research on that that I that I found that was really, really interesting.
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And that is and you can Google this or search the inner webs for this and it is called the Portuguese experiment. So the Portuguese experiment experiment was started in 2001.
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But their problems really their stats on the problems of the country and Portugal started in 1990 where 1% of all of its citizens, 1% of all of the citizens had a heroin addiction.
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And you know, 1% is 1%, but the problem with that was sharing needles. So back in the 90s is when HIV really hit. It was new and research was very new and it wasn't just HIV. It was HIV boom right into AIDS. Boom people were dying. And that's what Portugal is looking at in the 90s.
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So they had rapid spread from this. So they needed a solution and they needed it fast because their population was just dying off. And statistically, they ran the numbers and had they not come up with a change or 2020 now. I think it was 2025. They wouldn't have a population that by this point, the entire population and all their citizens would be dead or infected.
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And so they had to come up with something drastic. And this this is still research today. It's researched by the United States. It's researched by Canada. It's researched by the UK. And here's what they did.
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So shut up, John. Tell us what they did in 2001. They decided that they were no longer going to arrest try people in court or imprisoned people with personal supplies of recreational drugs.
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They had a group of doctors together and the brain trust of Portugal. And this was huge. But they were up against it. They had no other choice.
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And they decided, you know, if you think back for the Canada research or the Skinner box, they decided that they needed to put carpet on the floor and the exercise wheel and wall paper on the walls and the little cutouts and give these addicts something else to do besides putting them in a box, a steel box or jail.
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So what they did was they instead of spending their money on housing, meals, and treatment and not to mention arrest powers, court dockets with occupying judges' times and prosecutors' time, they decided to not arrest them.
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And use the money instead for rehabilitation. And this was hit the citizens that weren't involved in drugs. And the naysayers thought that this was just going to turn the, you know, Portugal into a drug infested pile. Well, they were wrong.
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2009 illegal drugs used by teenagers dropped. Well, actually, I think I even have some, some better stats here. So between 2001 and 2006, the amount of lifetime use of heroin, the drug that was causing the most problems in Portugal, fell by 2.5% to 1.8% among those 16 and 18 years old.
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A legal drug use by children in grade 7 through 9 dropped from 14.1% to 10.6% and the most important one was right here. HIV infections and fatalities caused by heroin and other drugs declined by more than 50% in that five-year stretch.
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And that's not to say that there's only purpose, but that was the main goal, you know, prevent their population from dying. One of the most notable statistics to come out of Portugal's decriminalization program was the number of people who enrolled in methadone and treatment for drug addiction from 6,040 before the policy to 14,887 after the amount of money saved on the drug.
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And law enforcement measures also funded drug free program options. So again, I'm not saying this was the right way to go. It did work for Portugal. Again, Portugal is not the United States. They don't have a border with Mexico. They don't have Cuba, you know, a boat ride away. They don't have the money issue.
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I mean, there's a lot of different variables here. But in my frame of mind, when I'm thinking about my personal experiences, the friend I just found out that is addicted to drugs and how I handled those friends and family that were had drug issues or addiction issues in the past, I'm treating this one different based on this information.
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Not because I'm just older. I mean, I could still protect my kids and my family and my time. But I'm not going to. I'm not going to do that. I'll leave you with one little anecdote or one more anecdote. And that is the man in the boat or the dam's going to break.
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So the guy owns this house by a dam. And he's out fishing on the boat. And he's got his little transistors to radio in the inner interrupt his music. And a broadcast comes on and says, hey, the dam's going to break.
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If you live in this area, you need to get out because it's going to be flooded. And we want to make sure we minimize a number of people harmed by the storm. And the man goes up, I'm a man of God, I pray every day. God will save me.
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And then apparently the dam starts to keep worse and worse. A motorboat comes up with a guy in it. And he's yelling at me, hey, jump in the boat. The dam is getting ready to break. And if it breaks, it's going to flood this whole area and you're going to die. And the guy yells over, I'm a man of God. I pray every day. God's going to save me.
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And then the motorboat leaves. And then you can see off in the distance that the dam is breaking chunks of the concrete, a falling over the water, starting to rush over the end. And a helicopter flies over to the to the man in the boat and drops a rope ladder and gets on a mega horn and says, grab the rope. The dam's breaking.
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I'm here to rescue you. And the man said, I'm a man of God, I pray every day. God will save me. And then as he's saying that the dam breaks and the guy dies. It's flooded in. He dies. So he's up in heaven to see God. And he's upset with God. He's like, look, I follow, I read your book. I pray every day. I walk in your light.
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Why didn't you save me? And God says, I sent you a message over your transistors to radio to let you know that the dam was going to break. I sent a man in a motorboat and a way out for you.
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I even sent a helicopter with a rope ladder to save you in the last minute. Why didn't you listen? So that being said, when now when it comes to my friend that has the drug issue,
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I want to be the guy in the motorboat. I want to be the guy in the helicopter. And I'm going to, I'm going to help my friend. Well, that wraps up today's episode on addiction. I appreciate you listening. Eli, thanks for doing the fall. You do. And until next time, get a feel for your future.