Science
77 | Akiko Iwasaki and the art of creativity maintenance
In this episode, we delve into the creative scientific process with renowned immunologist Akiko Iwasaki. She shares her insights on the importance of diverse backgrounds in research teams and how they...
77 | Akiko Iwasaki and the art of creativity maintenance
Science •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
spk_0
Okay, perfect.
spk_0
Yeah, it's such an important part of creative approaches to science to have this diverse background.
spk_0
And everyone in my laboratory, some of them are from the United States, but come from very different circumstances.
spk_0
And others come from different countries with their cultural background.
spk_0
And I think that it's different neurons that are connected, right, in these people.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
And you feed these diverse brains, the same set of data.
spk_0
And you start to see different conclusions or different hypothesis coming out of it.
spk_0
I think that in itself is very enriching.
spk_0
Welcome to the Night Science Podcast.
spk_0
Where we explore the untold story of the scientific creative process.
spk_0
We are your hosts.
spk_0
I'm Etaïe Nai, and I am Martin Lutcher.
spk_0
Akiko Iwasaki is one of the world's experts in immunity against viruses, notably against the coronavirus.
spk_0
She's a professor at Yale University and an investigator at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.
spk_0
In 2024, she was named one of the top 100 most influential people by Time Magazine.
spk_0
Growing up, Akiko wanted to become a mathematician or a physicist like her father, but then her interest changed after taking an immunology class.
spk_0
Since then, Akiko has done a world-class science and throughout, she's also been a champion of diversity in science, which she argues enriches the process.
spk_0
So, Akiko, we're really happy to have you with us today.
spk_0
Thank you so much. I'm really glad to be here.
spk_0
Akiko, what is your general approach to the creative scientific process?
spk_0
Yes, so when I think about my approach to science, it's personally driven by the desire to help those who are suffering.
spk_0
So, I know this is a weird way to answer your question about creative approaches, but this is really where my beginning of interest starts.
spk_0
So, we identify a debilitating disease for which there is no cure and probits pathobiology.
spk_0
And by doing that, we're hoping to make some positive impact on the people who are suffering from that disease.
spk_0
The way in which I think about creative ideas is to really start by simply asking what is the most medically necessary information that these people need.
spk_0
And then bring that problem down to the very bare bones and trying to understand highly complex and heterogeneous disease, like lone COVID, by bringing it down to the very core component that drive the disease.
spk_0
I like that notion of bringing things down to their bare bones.
spk_0
Yeah, I think if you look at the incredible heterogeneity of disease like lone COVID, it's just a messy hairball.
spk_0
And it's really difficult to even know how to start untangling it.
spk_0
But then you can imagine what's at the core of that hairball and start to build the meat around it.
spk_0
And if it looks anything like what you see from the outside, you may be getting closer to the answer.
spk_0
So, we start from the core that we imagine and then we start building on it.
spk_0
And it may be the wrong core in which case we have to find some other reasons.
spk_0
How do you identify that core? What do you mean the core of that messy hairball?
spk_0
You know, we started to kind of think about four or five possible root causes and start trying to probe if there's any evidence that support any of these ideas.
spk_0
And if not, we move on.
spk_0
Yeah, I'm thinking about this hairball analogy.
spk_0
It's not the most lovely thing to imagine.
spk_0
But, but now that you get the core of a hairball, it's more hair, right?
spk_0
Or is it?
spk_0
Oh, no.
spk_0
The way you're thinking about it is that the root cause and less correlated things are at the middle and everything else is symptoms of symptoms of symptoms.
spk_0
And that's not what you want. You don't want the shadows. You want the actual light.
spk_0
Absolutely. I'm imagining in the center of these, well, hairballs are a terrible analogy, I guess.
spk_0
But at the center of this mess, right, that there are these jewels that are hiding, you know, something brilliant diamonds, something like that.
spk_0
But does it happen to you that folks that you're working with are chasing this beautiful diamond?
spk_0
And yet the evidence is not supporting it at all, if anything, it's contradicting it.
spk_0
Yes, I see that a lot. Some people are fixated with a particular gem that they've been working on for decades, let's say.
spk_0
And they want to see it. And the data may not support that, but they keep pursuing the same.
spk_0
That's also because a lot of us come in to this new field with a lot of different backgrounds.
spk_0
Yeah, that's interesting that you mentioned different backgrounds.
spk_0
And we know that's something that's dear to you, this notion that a successful science team tends to have breath to it, a kind of diversity that allows it to perhaps get over the bias of any one of its members.
spk_0
Exactly. And I think it sort of also complements the thinking as a unit.
spk_0
And if I compose my team with entirely immunologists, we're going to be missing a thinking that might come from different fields like machine learning or virology or epidemiology.
spk_0
So to form a team with a diverse set of interest and background has really served our purpose of trying to understand complex illnesses.
spk_0
This is something that generally seems to play a big role for scientific discoveries, the import and export of ideas across boundaries of fields.
spk_0
So of course, if you have a diverse research group with people with different backgrounds, then the probability that you're going to find connections between diverse fields will be much higher.
spk_0
So you're an immunologist and you have a diverse group. Is there one field that's represented in your group outside of immunology that has made the most interesting contributions to your research?
spk_0
We've been collaborating a lot with computational biologists and that's been incredible trying to make sense of the hairball of data that we get because human mind is limited in trying to process thousands of different data point from people.
spk_0
Whereas these types of approaches that they bring to the team really helps us identify the key features.
spk_0
We also recently included more neuroscientists into the team.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Interesting.
spk_0
I'm really hoping for that intersection to bring more new insights into the field.
spk_0
That's really interesting.
spk_0
I was thinking, I wonder if you can compute for different fields. What is like the opposite field?
spk_0
So maybe for biochemists, it's genetics.
spk_0
Because there's very different ways of thinking, the way geneticists think in terms of mutations and biochemists think in terms of the mechanism.
spk_0
In that regard, computer science, it feels to me like a tool, like an approach.
spk_0
And so I'm wondering, Akiko, do you distinguish between that in terms of finding collaborators that provide a needed method versus collaborators that provide a new intellectual perspective?
spk_0
Yeah, that's interesting. You asked that because some of my collaborators who are from the computation fields, they're tool builders.
spk_0
And so when we collaborate, they like to test out their newest tool to find some features.
spk_0
And it turns out to be really interesting because that's not the way we think about the immune system at all.
spk_0
But applying their tools, they find things that are not necessarily anticipated from the data if you look at it.
spk_0
And I really, I mean, I emphasize the importance of new tools because some of the discoveries that we're making are only possible because others built a new tool that enable us to address some of these questions.
spk_0
So if we had started this 20 years ago, I don't think we would be able to make the progress we're doing now.
spk_0
And looking over your work, it seems like you have mastered the art of finding a collaborator.
spk_0
Because you've had so many collaborators.
spk_0
And those we all know can be tricky, even to the point where some young scientists prefer not to collaborate.
spk_0
So how have you evolved a way to find the sweet spot of a win-win approach?
spk_0
That's such an important question because especially during the pandemic, we collaborated with so many groups across the world.
spk_0
And each of this interaction is different.
spk_0
So there's no cookie cutter way of approaching collaboration.
spk_0
But what I can say is that I spend more time managing people and their expectations and their happiness than actually doing science during the pandemic.
spk_0
This was a major part.
spk_0
Managing expectations.
spk_0
What do you mean managing expectations?
spk_0
Oh, managing because everyone comes into a collaboration with the pre-existing expectation about what they will get out of it.
spk_0
Maybe some sort of acknowledgement, authorship, whatever it may be.
spk_0
And I need to understand what their expectations are and to be able to manage it because there are 50 other people on the team.
spk_0
They can't all be first authors.
spk_0
Exactly.
spk_0
So you mean that for you, it's important that on day one, it's crystal clear what we all agree everyone can expect.
spk_0
Well, it's not so transactional for me.
spk_0
It's more that I build a relationship with the collaborators.
spk_0
And when it comes time for this type of discussion, which is not always comfortable, then I would know enough about them that I can have a frank conversation.
spk_0
With them about a particular order of authorship or whatever it may be.
spk_0
So would you say that your ability to interact with collaborators to manage the expectations to build a relationship with them is an important part of your scientific process?
spk_0
I think it's a crucial part of team science.
spk_0
When my lab was much smaller and we're just doing 304 different projects, it didn't require such huge teamwork.
spk_0
But now we're doing very complex analysis and collaborating across the world.
spk_0
My ability to maintain good relationship with collaborators, it really is a key to moving these kinds of teams forward.
spk_0
So I think this has really become a very important part of what I do.
spk_0
It wasn't like this before.
spk_0
Yeah, in a sense that you really need to evolve over time your own approach like you, I think as a scientist, it's really hard to know.
spk_0
Let's say as a starting out assistant professor, what is your approach to collaboration?
spk_0
It's not obvious and it's something that takes time, trial and error to get it right too.
spk_0
Because as postdocs, we're not taught how to manage a big team.
spk_0
We're just doing our own thing and publishing papers.
spk_0
But then once you become the head of the lab and it becomes bigger and bigger, you do need to develop these skills.
spk_0
And I'm still developing it by the way.
spk_0
It's not like I've got this, but it's an essential part of what I do.
spk_0
So we were talking about your interactions with international collaborators.
spk_0
But of course, you must also interact with the people inside your own group.
spk_0
So how are these people, your PhD students, your postdocs, other people in your group?
spk_0
How do you involve those in the creative process of projects?
spk_0
That's an essential part of what we do.
spk_0
I am not telling anybody what to do at all.
spk_0
It's a creative process that emerged through a constant discussion with the members of the lab.
spk_0
So we have multiple meetings a week where we discuss together the data and the interpretation
spk_0
and what are the next steps for a project.
spk_0
And it's really a dynamic and interactive process.
spk_0
Without these meetings, we couldn't do any of these projects together.
spk_0
So what happens at these meetings?
spk_0
So each meeting has a theme.
spk_0
So it might be a meeting about clinical analysis.
spk_0
It might be a meeting about animal models.
spk_0
It might be a meeting about the vaccine approaches.
spk_0
But we have these themes where people who are interested in those themes come together
spk_0
and share data as well as ideas about what we can do.
spk_0
And together we discuss these.
spk_0
So we might go around the room and share the most recent data
spk_0
and provide input about what each one of us think about those data and what needs to happen next.
spk_0
So it's really kind of a group think in terms of each project and where it's going next.
spk_0
Yeah. But you know, when Martin and I use the word group think,
spk_0
it's usually not in a good light for us group think is when people
spk_0
conform to a stereotype kind of thinking and any kind of independent wild idea
spk_0
would get squashed in that setting.
spk_0
Oh, no.
spk_0
Okay, maybe I'm using the word wrong.
spk_0
No, I think you could use it also as a positive.
spk_0
But is there also something that you try to watch out for?
spk_0
If you see that people are perhaps being overly critical about something that's really just starting out.
spk_0
Like it's not time to kill the idea yet.
spk_0
Let's first let it develop and you're careful about that.
spk_0
Oh, yeah.
spk_0
There's definitely different personalities, you know, that come in.
spk_0
And I try to make sure that everyone are comfortable voicing their opinion and discussing it
spk_0
without someone dominating the conversation and killing new ideas or whatever.
spk_0
That's something that it's kind of my job to manage.
spk_0
And that's again, like managing relationships and expectations of each member
spk_0
and building that trust and relationship.
spk_0
I think this is also very important to create an environment where people can speak freely.
spk_0
So it really sounds like this managing of personalities, managing relationships
spk_0
with and between individuals involved in the research is such a central part of your approach.
spk_0
It really is.
spk_0
And without that, I don't think we can accomplish anything that we do.
spk_0
And these are also very different teams coming from very different backgrounds when we get together.
spk_0
So again, I think being respectful of others' opinion and being able to change your mind
spk_0
if the data presents something different from what you thought.
spk_0
These are key to developing scientific approaches.
spk_0
And I think you both had a recent article about open-mindedness in science, right?
spk_0
That really resonated.
spk_0
Thank you.
spk_0
And you know, with regards to being open-minded, I think I have an advantage in the sense that you came from Japan
spk_0
so you already know at least two different cultures.
spk_0
And also, would you say that the particular culture that you came from has something to do with you being able to be more open-minded?
spk_0
I mean, I think in Japan there is a respectfulness to it.
spk_0
Yeah, exactly.
spk_0
I think the respectfulness and the societal structure is a bit difficult to be completely open-minded.
spk_0
And I feel that that culture, it's very good at teaching you how to follow the rules and respect your seniors.
spk_0
And these are very important aspects of the culture.
spk_0
But for me, I think I was able to grow up in Japan without being too restricted by cultural norms.
spk_0
And I owe that to my parents who allow me to do whatever I wanted.
spk_0
But you're right about coming from a different culture because then you can appreciate the freedom and the ability to really spread your wings and do what you want.
spk_0
And that's why I'm here in this country to be able to do what I want and not having to conform to some societal norm.
spk_0
So in a sense, would you say you got the best of both worlds?
spk_0
You've got the being able to see what it's like to be from a different culture and be open-minded and know that there's different cultures there,
spk_0
that different people see things in different ways.
spk_0
But none of the rule following, which I think in science you sort of have to disobey.
spk_0
Yeah, exactly. I think I got the best of both worlds, as you say.
spk_0
This sort of respecting others and I don't necessarily follow every rule.
spk_0
But I guess being more considerate and kind when you can be, that's something that has really helped me with the team building.
spk_0
So yeah, you're right. I do owe that to that culture.
spk_0
Some years ago, you wrote a comment in nature and biology where you argued that diversity is really important for the quality of science.
spk_0
So we've talked a little bit about the two cultures.
spk_0
So just because you're there, your team is already culturally diverse.
spk_0
And we talked about the fact that you have people with different scientific backgrounds in your team.
spk_0
So more generally, why do you think having that diversity of viewpoints and backgrounds is something that's important for the quality of science?
spk_0
Yeah, it's such an important part of creative approaches to science to have this diverse background.
spk_0
And because just taking my own example of having come from one country to another and having those two different types of experiences synergistically sort of elevate my ability to interact with others and build a team.
spk_0
The same thing can be said about everyone in my laboratory.
spk_0
Some of them are from the United States, but come from very different circumstances.
spk_0
And others come from different countries with their cultural background.
spk_0
And I think that it's different neurons that are connected, right, in these people.
spk_0
And you feed these diverse brains, the same set of data, and they see different things in that data.
spk_0
I'm not sure if this is universally true, but this is how I think about it is that if you have all these different experiences, and you have this very different wiring to begin with.
spk_0
And you see the same set of data and you start to see different conclusions or different hypothesis coming out of it.
spk_0
I think that in itself is a very enriching and the way we even talk about the data, they're different from different backgrounds.
spk_0
And of course, they were scientific discipline where they were trained in different areas.
spk_0
And when we all get together, it really enhances the thinking process.
spk_0
It's really interesting that you say that different neurons are connected in people that come from different cultural backgrounds.
spk_0
And it feeds into something that, you know, Eta and I, we also teach workshops about the creative scientific process.
spk_0
And one of the things that we emphasize there is that if you have a rich data set, and different people look at that data, they're going to see different things.
spk_0
They're going to be able to make different discoveries because everybody has their own background.
spk_0
But there we are more thinking about the scientific background.
spk_0
What is your structure of what is known about the world and what is then surprising based on that background.
spk_0
But it's really interesting that you extend that also to this more general aspect of cultural diversity.
spk_0
Yes, I think it can be expanded to cultural diversity as well.
spk_0
But I don't have a concrete example to give you.
spk_0
Would you recommend to others than what you have done, which is to go to another country?
spk_0
Maybe it should be part of the normal scientific training where, okay, you're a postdoc.
spk_0
Now go to a different country, start your lab there. It's actually what I did.
spk_0
It is interesting, right, that one thing that we keep coming back to in this conversation is that there seems to be a kind of dichotomy where there's one line of thinking, which is, okay, you're an immunologist.
spk_0
Let's do some immunology. So you're working within your practice field.
spk_0
And then the other side is that ideas can come from the outside that if you mix with another viewpoint, then you can see things differently.
spk_0
And you really need both, right, the breath and the depth, the breath from other fields and the depth to go deep and solve a problem.
spk_0
Does that resonate with you that you sort of try to engineer projects where that's built into it?
spk_0
Yeah, I love the idea of recommending people to explore different countries.
spk_0
You know, actually in Germany, if you want to become a professor at a German university, it's expected that you spend some time doing research in another country.
spk_0
That's interesting. Yeah. And I think that can be said about other countries like Japan where professors are often expected to have experienced other countries and research in other countries.
spk_0
So I think it does build not just different way of thinking, but resilience, the approaches that are needed in science, just brought in the scope of your experience, right?
spk_0
I think it's really strange because it's kind of obvious that you should also work in a different lab, right?
spk_0
You shouldn't do your postdoc or all your postdocs in the lab of your PhD supervisor. But why do they have to bring a different country?
spk_0
What's the point?
spk_0
It doesn't have to be, but it just has to be different. I mean, think about the language that we use when we have the opposite.
spk_0
Like we don't experience other cultures, other ways of thinking. We call that inbreeding, right? And we all know that's bad.
spk_0
Something about getting ideas from the outside, the same as having genetic heterogeneity for evolution.
spk_0
Yeah. I think a lot of that depends on the personal preference as well. And what makes you happy is very important.
spk_0
So no one can really tell us what to study and be happy as we are because we kind of choose our own path to selecting the problems that we study and how we do it, right?
spk_0
So can you give a rule about how you decide what is an interesting problem for you?
spk_0
I mean, you said at the beginning that one of the things that it's important to you is that it's relevant to patients.
spk_0
But you know, there's many things that are relevant to patients, right? What are the ones that you find particularly interesting and why?
spk_0
Well, I think that one of the things that happened during the pandemic is that I started to interact directly with patients who are suffering from diseases like one COVID.
spk_0
And that has given me a whole new perspective on what these people are going through.
spk_0
And I almost feel like it's my duty to be able to tackle these very complex problems where there's no biological diagnosis, no clear therapeutics, no real cure inside.
spk_0
And to me, it's not just a scientific challenge, but moral obligation that we need to study these diseases because we can.
spk_0
And we really want to make a difference in these people's lives.
spk_0
And so the way in which I kind of chose this particular area of study is the sheer necessity of research to alleviate these suffering from people.
spk_0
You can say this about all the other diseases too, but there's very little attention being paid to this particular set of diseases that happen after infection,
spk_0
whereas lots of people are studying cancer or Alzheimer's or other diseases that are more well-defined.
spk_0
So you find it attractive that a problem is not well-defined?
spk_0
Yeah, I mean, this is kind of a crazy thing to be attracted to, but.
spk_0
No, why? Makes perfect sense.
spk_0
Yeah, more to do.
spk_0
But it's so much more challenging.
spk_0
I'm very jealous of people who are in a well-developed field like cancer or neurodegenerative diseases and where there are lots of great biomarkers and clinical measurements and therapeutics where we have none of that right now.
spk_0
Yeah, but do you seem to have a huge tolerance for ambiguity?
spk_0
Exactly. And every day there are some bits and pieces of information that come through.
spk_0
Like a puzzle. Like a puzzle.
spk_0
Yeah, pieces of the puzzle coming through.
spk_0
And that to me is incredibly gratifying to be at the very forefront of such a complex disease and seeing what could be done about it.
spk_0
So you liken this to a puzzle where you collect the pieces and then you just have to put the pieces together.
spk_0
But probably it's not that simple then to put the pieces actually together.
spk_0
Is that happen a lot that you think, oh, I have a piece and I have another piece here and then you realize they don't actually fit together and you have to figure out what that means?
spk_0
Oh, yeah, definitely. It's not a one layer of puzzle.
spk_0
I see it like a three or four layers of puzzles that you have to find pieces that fit.
spk_0
And so imagine having to solve five puzzles at once, but you're given one piece at a time.
spk_0
But that's why we need to collectively think about this and to try to fit those puzzles.
spk_0
For example, one layer may be telling us something about the persistence of the virus.
spk_0
Another layer telling us something about the autoimmunity.
spk_0
And they're very different puzzles, but the pieces do fit somewhere, right?
spk_0
But it's interesting. So you think it's still that in the end, it's just pieces that fit together.
spk_0
So the challenge then only is to figure out, okay, which image does this piece actually belong to out of the five layers that you're simultaneously solving?
spk_0
Exactly. And it's always very difficult to know where they fit.
spk_0
But when they do, it's such a joy to see the picture more clearly.
spk_0
And I have to say I'm a bit envious about the fact that you don't only have this joy of discovery when you find how the pieces fit together.
spk_0
But on top of that, you also have the joy of knowing it's actually going to be useful, which most of us scientists don't have in such a direct way.
spk_0
So I think that's actually wonderful.
spk_0
Thank you. That's our hope that it has some direct impact. Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah, I think it's this hope that keeps you going through all the pain of doing research, which I've been told that in Japanese, my name means pain.
spk_0
I was going to tell you that I didn't want to say that to you because it's not a very nice, nice name to me.
spk_0
No, but it just shows how considerate you are, right? You didn't want to confront him with that knowledge.
spk_0
How does one say that in Japanese? Like let's say something painful happens.
spk_0
Oh, it died.
spk_0
Okay, next time I call your name, you're not going to be sure what I actually mean.
spk_0
It's like, oh, it's really.
spk_0
Yeah, it's just call me out.
spk_0
And also there's a particularly painful disease called itai, itai disease, right?
spk_0
Yeah, that's right. Oh, my God. I didn't want to bring that up by there.
spk_0
It's okay. I've heard it all by now. It's the pain of discovery.
spk_0
It's the pain that we go through for science.
spk_0
No, it's a joy. Come on. You'll like this. You enjoy this.
spk_0
And I keep it. It sounds like you really enjoy your science too.
spk_0
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. I love my science.
spk_0
Yeah. So I think this was such a wonderful discussion. Thank you so much for sharing your process with us.
spk_0
Thank you so much. I really enjoy talking to both of you.
spk_0
Yeah. Thank you so much for this respectful and pain-free conversation.
spk_0
Excellent. The end, I guess.
spk_0
So just a little pain at the end for us.
spk_0
Yeah, but that's okay. You're going to survive.
spk_0
Well, you know what stuck with me the most about this conversation is the notion that
spk_0
the source of creativity here is more of a culture that Akiko is nurturing the right environment
spk_0
that's conducive for ideas to happen. Like she says, she never actually tells people what to do.
spk_0
That was pretty revealing, right? But she instead provides the environment for good work to happen.
spk_0
Yeah. You know, it's actually quite funny. A music teacher of mine, he studied at Paul McCartney's pop university in Liverpool.
spk_0
And when Paul was giving lectures, he told them, never tell a musician what to play.
spk_0
So it's kind of like what she says, right? I like that. Yeah. Don't micromanage them.
spk_0
If you're working with a team where every individual is so talented and creative, then you can't tell them what to do.
spk_0
On the other hand, what she also talked about is that she works in these big collaborations that she has to manage.
spk_0
And she has to manage people's expectations. So she certainly influences people.
spk_0
She doesn't let everybody do whatever they want, but she does it in a kind way.
spk_0
She does it in perhaps it could be said a Japanese way in the sense that she uses this experience that she has of multiple cultures.
spk_0
And it gives her a superpower for how to manage relationships in a gentle way.
spk_0
Yeah, well, you said that maybe she does it in a Japanese way, but I think it's her interpretation of the Japanese way.
spk_0
Because Japanese science, like Iqus said, can be very hierarchical.
spk_0
And you have a lot of respect for your superiors, so you don't contradict them.
spk_0
So she takes the good parts. Basically, she imports cultural techniques maybe from Japan into her signs in the US.
spk_0
That's right. And that's the advantage really of knowing multiple cultures that you could then decide which parts of which do you want to keep?
spk_0
You know, you started this wrap-up session off with saying what stuck with you was this cultural angle.
spk_0
You know what stuck with me? What?
spk_0
Hairballs.
spk_0
But after acknowledging the terribleness of that analogy, she did continue to use it.
spk_0
I think what she meant with her ball is just a really complex problem, a real mess.
spk_0
You know, another thing that I liked actually about what she was telling us is this idea of multi-layered puzzles.
spk_0
And you know, when a new piece comes in, you have to decide which layer of the puzzle does it actually fit in.
spk_0
But I just realized that sometimes maybe a puzzle piece might connect to layers.
spk_0
So this would be the most interesting pieces.
spk_0
Because really it's a three-dimensional puzzle.
spk_0
Oh yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, I like the multi-puzzle angle too because it doesn't deny any piece of evidence.
spk_0
You know, you could say, oh, here's a piece of evidence. It's not part of my puzzle, just throw it away.
spk_0
But for a kickoff, she keeps it because it belongs somewhere. Maybe not at this layer, maybe at a different layer.
spk_0
Maybe that's related to what George Church said, you know, that a lot of things he just puts up on the wall.
spk_0
And then maybe later they go back to it.
spk_0
You know, in the project that I'm working on now, one of the key observations is this particular self-state that we call stress.
spk_0
But we had actually talked about that in a paper five years before.
spk_0
We knew that that was important and it comes back later.
spk_0
And so I think that's one of the beautiful things about doing sciences that you can make connections with things that you saw before.
spk_0
And that's why I think it's so important to keep collecting new facts.
spk_0
Even if you don't think they fit right now, keep them and they might come in handy later.
spk_0
I think sometimes we fall into this trap of thinking that it's like a very neat and tidy universe and everything has to fit right away.
spk_0
Well, it's not meant to make sense right away. It's too complicated. So just keep the pieces.
spk_0
This image of a tidy universe, which is not what it is.
spk_0
I find that really important. And on some level it's obvious, right? Like we all know that.
spk_0
But on the other hand, we tend to forget that. When we do science, we want to tidy it up.
spk_0
We have this imagination that at the end it should all be tidy. But that's not how it works.
spk_0
It's not how it works. And I think it's a source for a lot of aggravation.
spk_0
Many projects have made a lot of progress.
spk_0
Even though there was a lot of contradictions that was happening, a lot of like data that was not supporting what people thought,
spk_0
they still went ahead with it. And I think that the notion was that, hey, we don't need to explain everything.
spk_0
Not everything that we see is going to be explained by this one principle that we would like to propose.
spk_0
But it's still worth talking about this principle because it explains some things.
spk_0
And it's just not going to be the end of the story. There's going to be more to it later.
spk_0
But just because you can't explain everything doesn't mean you shouldn't describe the one albeit limited piece of understanding that you did find.
spk_0
But didn't Akiko also say that there are some scientists who had an idea of some time ago and they just kind of let go of it even if the data does not support it?
spk_0
I think it's a delicate balance.
spk_0
You know, remember Martin that project that we worked on on neutral gene expression?
spk_0
Of course.
spk_0
Like we were always in between these two modes of, is this real? And oh my god, this is a breakthrough idea.
spk_0
Maybe people outside of science don't realize how heavily this weighs on us, this constant feeling of, is this real?
spk_0
I think what Akiko is talking about is of course from her experience as a scientist.
spk_0
But it's a general tool. It's a general attitude for being creative to set this environment up where creativity could be nurtured.
spk_0
Don't tell people specifically what to do. Micro-managing doesn't seem to help.
spk_0
Be kind, allow diversity to happen, allow diverse ideas to coexist.
spk_0
So everything that Akiko says is really general to any team working on a creative endeavor.
spk_0
Yeah, I think that's true.
spk_0
And this culture spanning advantage.
spk_0
I think it's always something very special about the United States, for example, New York City.
spk_0
Most people are not from here, that live here.
spk_0
And that creates like a big advantage that there's so many different viewpoints and that really leads to a lot of exciting things.
spk_0
Maybe that's one of the reasons why science in the US has been so successful over the last decade that the culture of the US at least used to be one that welcomes diverse backgrounds and viewpoints.
spk_0
Yeah, and of course it's tragic that you had to add this caveat of at least traditionally.
spk_0
Yeah, I think that's true.
spk_0
Remember the discussion we had with Edith Herd?
spk_0
She talked about her experience doing research in the US was life-changing for her because all of a sudden, instead of this attitude that she would face, whatever she proposed a new idea of like, oh no, you know, someone tried that a few years ago, it didn't work.
spk_0
All of a sudden there was this attitude of, yeah, yeah, you should try that.
spk_0
Yeah, of course, of course, why wouldn't you try that?
spk_0
Of course, oh, it's gonna be amazing.
spk_0
Definitely try that. And that was such a breath of fresh air for her.
spk_0
Yeah, but you know what, it's really funny how it's always relative to where you're coming from because one of the things that I really appreciated when I was in England doing research was that my mentor Lawrence first, he would not be afraid to do something where he was not an expert.
spk_0
If he thought he had something interesting to do, he would just do it.
spk_0
And my feeling was that in Germany, people were much more used to stay in their assigned territory.
spk_0
This is what you know to do, like don't venture out of this.
spk_0
I've found a lot about that and some people just really do want to stay and do what they are doing.
spk_0
And some people do like to keep going into new fields.
spk_0
What I've really realized is that science benefits tremendously from having both.
spk_0
Because for example, I'm on the side of the spectrum where I like to go from field to field.
spk_0
And when I go to a new field, I go directly talking to the experts, the people who have been there the whole time, I love talking to them.
spk_0
It's like one stop shopping. I learn all the facts.
spk_0
Oh no, don't trust the experts.
spk_0
Yes, Barabashi said.
spk_0
Yeah, don't trust the experts.
spk_0
I mean, I just know how to do it now.
spk_0
I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
spk_0
And on the other hand, I sort of know what my take on things is.
spk_0
And so if they say it's not interesting, that I don't fully trust yet.
spk_0
I have to say, the main thing that I took from Akiko was her vibe, her spirit.
spk_0
Let's say you are thinking, oh my god, Akiko I was Saki.
spk_0
I love her science.
spk_0
Oh my god, she's just like amazing work.
spk_0
And I want to know the secret of how does Akiko do it?
spk_0
And let's say you are coming into this episode thinking, okay, she will divulge her secrets.
spk_0
Then you might be disappointed at the first hearing.
spk_0
It's not what you thought.
spk_0
It's not a secret of any particular principle.
spk_0
It's a secret of mannerism, of culture, of attitude.
spk_0
And that's really beautiful.
spk_0
She just tells you how she deals with people.
spk_0
And that's the most important thing if you run a lab.
spk_0
I mean, that's the one thing that counts how you deal with the people.
spk_0
How you deal with people?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
We want to take a moment to thank the people who help us with the production of the Night Science podcast.
spk_0
Our amazing sound engineer, Kristoff Schneider, and our editorial assistant, Arjun Udupa.
spk_0
We produce this podcast as an activity of the Night Science Institute.
spk_0
You can visit us there at night-science.org.
spk_0
When we go to a seminar, we typically hear about just the result.
spk_0
But would it make the discoveries more understandable and more inspiring?
spk_0
If the speaker also shared the story behind how the ideas were generated?
spk_0
And that is exactly what we do at the Night Science seminar series.
spk_0
Here, speakers not only talk about their science,
spk_0
they also go beyond the results to share their creative process.
spk_0
Join us online for this new kind of science talk.
spk_0
You can find more information at night-science.org.
spk_0
Look for seminar under the Learn tab.
Topics Covered
creative approaches to science
diverse backgrounds in research
immunity against viruses
collaboration in science
managing expectations in research
interdisciplinary research teams
complex disease analysis
lone COVID research
importance of diversity in science
scientific creative process
collaborative problem-solving
computational biology in immunology
team dynamics in research
scientific discoveries through collaboration
building relationships in science