Health
#768 The Difficulties (And Gifts) Of Bipolar - Rick Cleveland
In episode #768, Rick Cleveland shares his candid journey with bipolar disorder, discussing both its challenges and unexpected gifts. He emphasizes the importance of destigmatizing mood disorders and ...
#768 The Difficulties (And Gifts) Of Bipolar - Rick Cleveland
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Interactive Transcript
spk_0
Welcome to episode 768 with my guest Rick Cleveland. If you're new to the podcast, I hope you find this to be a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads from medically diagnosed conditions past tromas and sexual dysfunction to everyday compulsive negative thinking and reminder this show is not meant to be a substitute for professional metal counseling. I'm not a therapist.
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The website for this show is metalpod.com and metal pod the social media handles that you can follow us at.
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Before we get into Rick's interview, the day after we recorded he shot me in email back and he was in his head about in his mind the quality of the conversation.
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I loved it and broke who helps me with the podcast. I wrote me in the email. I said I'd be happy to read before or after the interview.
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I could have been a bit more art and rich talking about himself. I could have been a bit more articulate especially when talking about what a manic phase is like.
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20 years ago it was a lot different because I was in the thick of it. Now I really do believe that any highly productive period in my life is in fact being bipolar but not quote ill in any diagnostic sense.
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That's the message I want people to hear. This is my first time discussing any of this in a podcast and I would like it to open door to you.
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I would like to talk about how difficult it is to allow me to further destigmatize mood disorders and not just talk about how difficult it is living with bipolar.
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Instead my message is it brings as many gifts as it does difficulties. It's that quote superpower. Unquote thing that DeVica talks about.
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DeVica, a previous guest. I think her name is Bouchon. I have a terrible memory but she was an amazing guest in the podcast.
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I think that part of bipolar is what I'm trying to lean into. If I hadn't had a terrifying Korean War vet for a father, I might not have sought refuge in movies and books. That escape literally gave me my calling in life. That's what I want other people to understand.
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There you have it. If you hear noise in the background, by the way, Christine and my girlfriend is moved in and her cat Pablo and a few hear noises in the back.
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He is prancing in and out of the closet. No, not a figurative term. Literally prancing in and out of the.
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He comes. I don't know why all of a sudden they sit down to record the podcast and he wants to know what's what's in there and Pablo.
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There's a lot of shoes for you to put your mark on. He has not peed yet in the house, but he engrossed you're doing something that's kind of adorable.
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They do not care for each other. They don't hate each other, but they're just like let's agree to disagree.
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When I feed them both at the same time, I separate them with a door and when they're done eating or at least I think they're done eating because I want to see one at a time.
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I open the door and they both immediately go to the others food and start eating it.
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And Pablo is sleeping between Christine and I on the bed at night and I really like it when he's in between us and then Grace is at our feet on the bed.
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There's something about it just feels nice. But anyway, are you feeling the fall depression?
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I didn't feel it last year and I'm feeling it this year. I'm feeling that who that kind of hollow just molasses kind of thing.
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Is that like I don't feel sad? I don't feel like oh, I don't want to do anything, but by three, four o'clock it just I have to lay down mostly from like anxiety.
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And coupled with that that kind of hollow part of my energy went somewhere feeling.
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Anyway, I got it. This is from the Ask Paul Anything survey and this was filled out by a woman who calls herself me and she write Paul.
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I was wanting to know how you felt about the way the world sensors everything. Specifically suicide.
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If I have to hear another person refer to their quote unalived unquote friend, I'm going to scream not literally.
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How do people find comfort in wrapping up the ugliest things with softened words like unalived non-consensual affair?
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Pew, Pew, Pew, Graped and so on. I don't know if I've heard Pew, Pew.
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That is a great question. And I think where we first really started seeing words like that command is in the government.
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You know, when we invade a country, the people that fight us are called counter insurgents.
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You're not called home defenders.
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Casualties, dead people known as casualties.
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Because casualties aren't just people or injured.
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Eliminate. That's another one. Not assassinate, but neutralize is another one.
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A person needs to be neutralized. You hear military people say, oh, in fact, maybe I got put in touch with John Kirikawa, who I'm sure some of you have seen making the YouTube circuit.
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And I believe he has his own podcast. Now he's an XCIA whistleblower. I work for the CIA for a while.
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Blue the whistle on torture that was going on and he was imprisoned.
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But I would hope I remember to ask him about all of that, all of that lingo.
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Anyway, getting back to your question, a lot of that annoys me.
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There are certain things where I'm like, thank God, you know, certain things are being put out to pasture.
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For instance, why did it take so long for them to change the name of the team, the Washington Redskins?
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That should have been obvious by 1960 that that needed to go.
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I don't know. But I'm with you.
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I don't have an opposition to people like who recently completing suicide has been has replaced committing suicide.
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I don't have a problem with that because it doesn't sound like we're beating around the bush, you know, when it comes to it.
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But I saw an interview with somebody recently and he was met him at Khanahay and they had told him the news that Sam Shepard had died.
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And he did not hear the news. And I believe the phrase he used was I didn't know that Sam had moved on.
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And that's the first time I've heard that one. Maybe he used something else. But in my memory, that's what he said was he Sam moved on.
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And I was just like, that annoyed me. And nothing against Matthew McConaughey, fine actor, done a lot of great stuff.
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But that one just, yeah, Sam's out there running the big errand.
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Sam, Sam stepped out for the long cigarette.
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Yeah, I had no idea that Sam has found an incredible deal on rent.
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Yeah, where is that line between being sensitive and just being annoying? I don't know.
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But I'd prefer if you didn't, you said I'm going to scream. If you didn't say that and said if you said that I'm going to be neck-vang positive, that would, that would make me more comfortable.
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But thank you, thank you for your and all seriousness. Thank you for your, your survey.
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This is from the light bulb moment survey and this is filled out by woman who calls herself Kathy and she writes,
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when I recognized my high sensitivity has to do with codependency, the slightest side eye, huff of displeasure, discomfort from another means I have to change to make you better.
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At first, I didn't really understand that. The part to make you better.
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But I do think I understand it because it's really, instead of changing how we feel about something or our actions, we try to change their disposition to make them happy.
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So I guess that's what you mean by better.
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This is from the voice in your head survey and this is filled out by, oh, by Kathy.
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And what are some of the things you tell yourself about yourself? I must be perfect. So others cannot see my brokenness. This way, I don't have to reveal all the disorders.
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It's a good one. It is a good one. Man, the feeling though, when we figuratively stand in someone in front of someone and are completely seen and felt and we can feel that compassion and love and support from that person.
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It's such a life affirming moment. And it wasn't until I got into support groups that I felt that it was also wasn't until support groups that I feel like I fully showed that.
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Although I suppose in therapy, my first therapy session when I was in my mid 20s, I just kind of vomited everything that was going on with me inside and outside.
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And that was a terrifying but good feeling.
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But yeah, the things, the things that we hide that we don't need to hide. But then again, so much of the world is emotionally ill equipped to understand nuance, trauma responses.
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And the fact that sometimes people just want to have their pain witnessed or their truth validated, they're not looking for you to do anything about it necessarily.
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I just want to feel felt. And then finally, this is from the struggle and the sentence survey. And this is filled out by woman to call herself Laurel and about her sex addiction.
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She writes, if someone will have sex with me, I am not disgusting. If I do have sex in this manner, I feel disgusting anyways.
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For three days, I've been on the verge of a fucking panic attack.
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You know, I remember being young and just like hitting my head against the wall and I hate that. You know, that feels better. I was suicidally depressed.
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This is everything I've always wanted times a million total despair. And I've never been less happy.
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Wandering around London, I don't really like not having control.
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Hoping I could step in front of a car. Crying uncontrollably while eating. Predators think that men will never talk about it. There's just enough stopping it.
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Everyone is dealing with something. Anger where I feel my jaw tightening. Oh, maybe tonight I won't have 20 drinks. You're being disrespected.
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Oh, I have a pretty deep and overwhelming. You're not being appreciated. The fear of abandonment. You're going to die alone.
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I'm trying to get to a place where I'm valuable. Sometimes you just need to hang on one more day.
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Just because I exist. I had ribbling social anxiety and severe depression. My mom's response was to get me into modeling.
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I'm here with Rick Cleveland, fellow Chicago and thanks for coming, man. Thanks for having me, Paul.
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I've been aware of Rick for God over 30 years when I was living in Chicago and doing theater. Rick, Rick was the playwright back then.
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And I never got to meet you. And then you transitioned out here.
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Wrote for tons of great shows. Probably the most. The ones that people would be most familiar with.
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West Wing. Did you write on six feet under? Yeah. Okay. All five seasons. Six feet under.
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What were those experience? I mean, we're going to get into your bipolar. But there are such great shows.
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Yeah. I realize there's a difference. There are showrunners that are more tour driven.
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And if they hire you on the West Wing Air and the Air and the Air and the Air and the Air can show.
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And if you're like the walk and talk. Yeah, the walk and talk. But if you get hired as a writer, you're kind of like a background singer or a background studio musician.
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And then Alan Ball on six feet under was completely different. Like he wanted all the writers on that show to incorporate their voices into the show.
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So it was more like being in a band. I imagine a lot more fun.
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Way more. Most fun I've ever had was on that show.
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I forget the name that he goes by now. But when he presented as Jill Saloway. Yeah. Joey. Yeah. Joey.
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He tells the story of Alan Ball coming to see him read a piece that she had written for a show that she.
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She did with his friend called sit and spin. Yeah.
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And the show was about something just filthy that that he had written to make his friend laugh.
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And Alan Ball happened to be in the audience. Oh wow. And was like, I want that voice on my show.
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I could tell you the name of the piece. Can I swear? Yeah.
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Jill wrote then Jill. Now Joey wrote a piece called Courtney Cox's asshole. That's it.
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And it was about it was like in the voice of a fictional personal assistant to Courtney Cox on the day when she has to get her asshole waxed or what is it?
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Bleached. Yeah. And that's what she got. You know, that's why Alan hired her. Yeah.
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And I knew him because I went to college with his sister. Faith. Oh wow. I went to Indiana University.
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And a lot of people kind of got their feet underneath them in Chicago. The Saloways. Yeah.
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Nick Napier, who founded the annoyance theater. Yeah. Yeah. Anywho.
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We're going to talk about bipolar. Before we get into that, just a bit of background about kind of your upbringing, what the kind of emotional temperature was of that, your view, yourself, the world around you.
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Maybe some some vignettes that you think kind of are representative of. Yeah.
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I grew up in West Side of Cleveland, Ohio. My mom graduated high school when I was in the second grade. She wasn't high school age. She was in her 30s.
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My dad was a bus driver and he had been a Korean war vet. And then he started drinking and became like very violent.
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So it was weird because I remember him going from like watching the honey mooters, which in Ralph Cramden was a bus driver and would oftentimes threaten to hit Alice.
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Like Bang Zoom to the moon. Right. Right. Only my dad didn't like my dad actually hit hit us and hit my mom. And he was wildly unpredictable.
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So in that environment, I started reading early and as soon as I could get on a bus or walk to a movie theater, I would go to movie theaters and sit sometimes for two or three screenings in a row just to avoid being out of the house.
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But I think about that now because were there any favorites? Oh, just like everything like I was I was one time the three days of the condor. Oh, such a great man.
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Oh, such a great movie. You know, all those movies and I was too young to to see any of them probably. But I was falling in love with narrative structure, I think. And also hiding out, you know, from my dad.
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So, so I kind of in a weird way have him to thank for this, you know, writing career, I think. I think most creative people have some type of adversity to that that fueled their creativity. I found very few people who are really observant and empathetic who did not feel like outsiders.
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Yeah, yeah, I think I understand that better now. And I went to the University of Iowa after spending 10 years and writing program. Yeah, the best in probably the country.
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And somebody after I came out as bipolar, somebody sent me a psychiatric study that was done in the 70s at the writer's workshop. And they found that was something like over 70% of the right.
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They were all writers in the study tested, you know, positive for bipolar or some other mood disorder and also or alcoholism like over 70%.
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Not surprising at all. No, I guess not. But and also if you looked in the music community, the comedy community. Yes, it's seems to be across the board.
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So when you were sitting in those movie theaters, did it. Was it just an escape? Did it soothe any feeling of loneliness? What's their feeling of loneliness? Did you just enjoy your solo company?
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I really enjoyed my solo company, I think. And I also dragged my sister to a lot of movie theaters as she's fond of reminding me.
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And then later on, my friends, we were all like movie lovers from an early age, you know, I cut high school. I kind of have the exact same viewing experience, I think, as Quentin Tarantino did. I would cut high school, take the bus downtown and watch black exploitation movies the whole day.
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You know, and I loved them. They weren't showing those movies like it where I was living in that neighborhood, but they were showing them downtown. And you had to like keep your feet off the floor because the rats were like literally run underneath your seats.
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Oh, Lord. Yeah.
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Do you remember, I'm sorry, when I find somebody that has kind of the same wheelhouse of movies that they love, especially a writer, I just want to pick their brain.
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Do you remember the experience of seeing taxi driver for the first time?
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Oh, yeah. Yeah. And in fact, one of my best friends like that weekend, we saw it, we saw it at a college screening, because I think we were too young to be a let in. But if we showed up at the college campus, they let anybody in, I guess.
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But my friend Pete got a Mohawk haircut like two days after seeing that movie. Wow. Which everyone thought was like a punk rock move, right?
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But it was a Travis Bickle move, which is probably weirder and darker. Who is the main character of taxi driver played by Robert Jeneer? I wouldn't it was the second movie, I believe, by Martin Scorsese.
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Yeah, I mean, streets. Yeah, I really kind of put them on the map. It was his first kind of commercial wide, wide release. And boy, that movie holds up to this day. It still feels agy.
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Yeah, I can't imagine it being made today. But yeah, I got about an anti hero, right? Yeah.
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Yeah, that was kind of a new thing. Jody Foster was 12, right? And for those who are under 50 years old, John Henkley, the guy who assassinated Ronald Reagan, kind of fell in love, I guess.
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Yes, with Jody Foster from that movie and wrote her letters and said in one of the letters, I believe did he say I'm going to shoot the president?
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Yeah, I think so. I think that's how they, that's one of the things that I think the Secret Service were tracking him at that point. I don't know if she was at Yale, I think a student at Yale, she was getting stalked by him, at least through the mail.
spk_0
Yeah, that was quite a nice diversion. Let's get back on track. So you're avoiding your dad, home life is what was your relationship like with your mom?
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Really close, really tight. Like we, you know, I remember one time my dad would, after my folks got divorced, he would sometimes call and he'd be up the street.
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And he was, he was living on the streets at that point or in a flop house. I didn't, you never knew where he was if he had a roof over his head or not, but he would threaten to come over and kill us, you know, or kill my mom.
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And then we, we had a drill where the, you know, it might be seven o'clock at night in November or something. We'd turn all the lights off, draw the shades, turn the TV off. And then, you know, duck down below the windows. So, so you wouldn't see us.
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One time we had this, it was called a milk shoot. Do you know what a milk shoot is? It's a, it's like a square mailbox that there's a door on the exterior exterior of the house and a door on the inside.
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And the milkman would put the milk delivery in there when they, between the doors. Yeah. And so he tried to punch his way in through, he did break through the, the milk shoot.
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And, and then was trying to reach around to unlock the door when the police came and stopped his effort. But my mom, like she just couldn't bring herself to, to use any, any kind of a weapon against him, save for a spatula.
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So she was trying to slap his fist with a spatula when the cops came. And I remember, like my sister had to remind me of this. But when the police took him away that time, I went down in the basement, because there was a basement staircase that went from that same door that he was trying to break into.
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And I got, there was a five pound sledgehammer down there. And I brought it up. And I put it at the top of the staircase. And that sledgehammer stayed at the top of that staircase until my mom passed away in 2006. Like my dad died in 1987, but that nobody touched that sledgehammer.
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Like that was going to be the thing that stopped him from getting to us. Like, why do you think it stayed there after he died?
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You know, it's funny, because I don't, I remember it always being there, but I don't ever remember thinking, oh, I should probably take that down and put it back on the tool shelf, you know.
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And nobody, I don't know why I think it was just symbolic of, you know, we can handle this.
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What's there a feeling? And is there still a feeling in you that the world is unsafe? Well, right now, yeah, I mean, it kind of objectively is.
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Right. Especially if you're a person on the margins. Yeah, yeah, mainstream. Yeah, one of my sons is gay. I'm very afraid for him.
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You know, I'm afraid for a whole lot of people right now. And it sort of feels like, you know, I'm listening to a lot of Russian and German writers who are talking, you know, like they've seen this before.
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And we should be paying very close attention because history is repeating itself right now. Yeah, it doesn't happen in one fell swoop.
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It's inch by inch and you're like, well, this is going to change. This is going to get better. And maybe it will. But, um, how do you handle that feeling of powerlessness?
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Insorting what you can control and what you don't. Do you shut down? Do you get active? Do you go in a corner and stare at the wall and get into a funk?
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All of the above. You know, I try not to, I mean, I do watch the news. I have friends that have stopped watching the news. I don't want to go to that extreme.
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But I also know that there's such a thing as watching too much news. I'd say any more than five minutes. Yeah, to me is I want the broad strokes. And then that, that's it.
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Yeah, we have to worry. You know, I liked having a president that we didn't think about every day. Almost all day long. Like I sort of miss those days.
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Even if they were like to even say that about George W. Bush, the first bush. Well, no, the set. Yeah. Like and as horrible as he was, like I didn't think about him every day.
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It was more ignorant than malevolent. Yeah, right. But I mean, I did. I was politically active. I was on six feet under that at that time.
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During his campaign for re-election and Alan ball. Let me go to Ohio to work with move on and election protection for two weeks. Like you let me out of the room to go work for John Kerry.
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Essentially, even though it didn't, didn't help get him elected. But so yeah, I've been, I am politically active too though.
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So let's talk about bipolar. As you look back, you weren't diagnosed until how old were you? How old are you now and how old were you then?
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I'm 65 now. I was 20 years younger. So 45, 44 around there. I had been diagnosed with depression, with generalized anxiety disorder.
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My mom got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer in 2006. And I think that six months of like dealing with her illness, six feet had just ended. I had a big development deal at NBC.
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But I was mostly flying back to Ohio to, you know, be spent time with and attend to my mother's declining health. You know, she was in hospice. When she went into hospice, they told us she was going to last like maybe a week or so.
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So five months later, she was still alive. So it was a long drawn out process. And at the time I had, I had this, you know, huge professional sort of obligations. And I had a wife and three kids under 12, I think.
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And I think that that's, I was very high functioning professionally. But I think that it also, like that's when it got away from me. Like after she died, I kind of had my, my break that became the bipolar break, the break that got me diagnosed with bipolar too.
spk_0
Had it presented itself before, but was it just not as extreme or did it just suddenly come out of nowhere? It didn't come out of nowhere by any stretch. It was, you know, it was just misdiagnosed, I think. And it wasn't as much of a problem until it came to a head. And that's, you know, when like it wasn't, you know, I had to do something because it wasn't.
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You know, I was going to break up my family, probably like, who knows what, you know, all the horrible things that could have happened and almost happened, but didn't.
spk_0
And what do you mean specifically because of your, you're saying your choice would have been to break up? No, not at all. But I think my wife would have wanted to get the kids away from me when I was like going through that kind of manic or depressive mostly manic.
spk_0
Like a couple episodes were deeply depressive, but the manic stuff was where I could be really scary.
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So that was much more problematic than the depressive stuff. Yeah.
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I thought I was just being like channeling Lewis Black, yeah, who I know like in, you know, in the 90s when he ran the West Bank Club.
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But I just thought I was being funny and, you know, but I was sometimes like just really raving.
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And was it to people around you, was it annoying or was it scary?
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Both, I'm sure. You know, and at times it could be funny if I was in the right, you know, group of people, they probably found it really entertaining.
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But my wife saw the darker side of that. And it wasn't funny or just annoying to her.
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Give me some, it was scary snapshots of what that looked like. Well, this isn't funny, but I, you know, I have two, the earliest memories I have of my dad.
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One of him is, is him pulling me on a sled through the snow to look at Christmas trees, probably about four.
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The second one is him punching his fist through a wall in our basement through both sides of drywall.
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Luckily, he didn't hit a stud, but his fist went all the way through.
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I can't tell you like how many guys I've known that have broken their hands, like, just in their 20s, right?
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Like hitting a wall or a cabinet or, well, I did punch a wall in front of my wife and put my fist, you know, through the drywall.
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And that was a moment for me that I didn't, I did not want to live up to that moment or repeat that moment, having it, you know, burned in my memory of something my dad did.
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But it's, I was just back in Ohio talking to one of my best friends, you know, since I was 15.
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And we were just talking about like his, his mom used to chase his dad around the house with a hammer, you know, and this stuff, when we talked about it as teenagers, those were funny stories.
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You know what I mean? Like, it's just amazing what you can normal, what you normalize when you're living in it.
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Especially teenage boys, right? It's like the edge here, the better.
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spk_0
That was when you punched that wall.
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Did it snap you in the moment?
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Did it snap you out of anything or was it later that you went?
spk_0
Oh wow.
spk_0
I think it did snap me in the moment and then it just kept you know opening a deeper awareness.
spk_0
I think it was shortly right after that that I was hospitalized and then diagnosed.
spk_0
And you were hospitalized because of the anger and irritability or...
spk_0
...was it self-admitted?
spk_0
Yeah, I self-admitted and I didn't stay long.
spk_0
I got out sooner than I thought just because I thought I punched your way out.
spk_0
Did it punch your way out?
spk_0
Not exactly.
spk_0
No, yeah.
spk_0
I took out four orderlies and I threw a refrigerator unit through a window.
spk_0
Oh, so you did like a coup business?
spk_0
No, that was a synced.
spk_0
That was a synced, that's right.
spk_0
Chief.
spk_0
Yeah, I think I just, at that point my road was one of psychopharmaceutical treatment.
spk_0
Self-administered?
spk_0
No, they all prescribed but like a lot of different things you know.
spk_0
And like Depacote was one of them which is like a really you know they'll say they...
spk_0
I think they said this will put a floor under you.
spk_0
It just became like all floor you know like I was like couldn't get up off the floor kind of.
spk_0
Couldn't function on that level.
spk_0
Lithargic?
spk_0
Yeah, just like not...
spk_0
None of the creative flow kind of highs that you need to be a writer in this business.
spk_0
So you know through trial and error we finally got me like on the right regimen of meds and I've been you know just managing it.
spk_0
You know I think really well for the last you know 20 years.
spk_0
But then you know when I read this op ed piece by the former surgeon general California DeVica Bouchon and she said bipolar is my superpower.
spk_0
I remember she was on the podcast and talked about it.
spk_0
Yeah, she said it made her a better doctor, a better spouse, a better friend, a better parent, a better sister.
spk_0
And I've looked back at like my career and I think none of the success I've had would have happened without me being bipolar.
spk_0
Now when she was talking about it she's talking about bipolar being managed.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
Which I think is an important distinction because unmanaged bipolar sure there may be bouts of creativity and advancements in your profession but you know the side effects of it.
spk_0
I think I still think though that like there's probably a lot of untreated bipolar in Hollywood writers rooms and recording studios and you know.
spk_0
But I think I feel like you know if you can't if I'm feeling too hyper I know that I have to take a few days off you know if I'm too consumed by something whether it's in the news or I'll tell you one that like almost got me when Jean Hackman died.
spk_0
And I had I was a I did a production rewrite on one of his last movies run away jury and so I knew him a little bit and I was really sad about his death and the circumstances about his death.
spk_0
But when I heard about the dog one of his dogs died because it was in a kennel and neither he or his wife could let the dog out of the kennel and so it just starved to death or dehydrated to death in that kennel.
spk_0
That's something that could have really sent me off you know if I hadn't like just recognized it for what it was it's like.
spk_0
This this is just a well of you know empathy for me to feel that way about that dog but it could have become like a bottomless pit.
spk_0
Depressive or irritable probably both so you have experienced mixed states.
spk_0
Oh yeah talk talk about what that feels like to for the person who who's never experienced that in as much detail as you can well because the external symptoms are just you know can be scary for somebody right.
spk_0
But you for the person suffering or the loved ones the loved ones and I used to say to my wife that I wish I had cancer because if I cancer people would feel sorry for me instead of being scared by me you know.
spk_0
So it's a little bit of that I think and and that's one of the things I've been trying to do now is try to convince people like I just attempted to create a show about a bipolar doctor but someone who's managing it's the superpower part of her you know abilities as a doctor but they but everybody loves that homeland treatment you know where.
spk_0
The main character in that series starts drinking too much sleeps with strangers and bars listen to jazz music too loud and becomes a terrible CIA agent you know like that juggle and hide part of bipolar is all you ever see.
spk_0
Because it's more dramatic and it's more interesting to watch right for most people yeah exactly but it doesn't help the stigmatize.
spk_0
You know so.
spk_0
So where you at today.
spk_0
I'm just starting to talk about it and oh let's go back to the to the mixed state so in as much detail as you can convey to those of us who have never experienced that.
spk_0
Well the depression go kind of starts to go global and you start to feel like there's no reason to carry on with anything that you're doing and including the living or well I have never been suicidal but but I have felt like I'd be better off dead but then if if you're trying to communicate that to anyone and they don't understand it because they're seeing you in you know a state.
spk_0
That's not a healthy state then that's that's like where you get the mixed state that you're talking about like going from depression to anger and from what I understand the mixed state is can be the most dangerous for a person who is you know has the potential to attempt suicide rather than the depressive state I could be wrong but I know I read that in multiple places where as you come out of the depressive state and you know what I'm saying.
spk_0
And then all of a sudden you get some of the other part of it. Apparently that's more.
spk_0
Yeah because in a hyper state you're good at planning and executing plans I guess right yeah like if you're going to get a big grandiose plan that would be the time it might happen.
spk_0
And did you do the kind of stereotypical thing where you felt omnipotent and everybody was just trying to get in your way and didn't understand.
spk_0
I did a little I did have a little bit of that you know I had this one man show that I was doing at the Geffen and and you know I got invited to do it in Edinburgh and you know on the west end and all these places and I I did end up doing it as a couple of times.
spk_0
I was a comedy central special at the 90 second street why and I think is much fun as I had doing that it was it was all also in that same period of time that my mom got ill and died and you know I became sort of mega little maniacal mega
spk_0
maniacal maniacal maniacal of mega little maniacal of I might you ever it do you feel like you was there anything more you wanted to add about the mixed state.
spk_0
No I don't think so.
spk_0
It's been a long time since I felt like a mixed state experience our country's kind of in the mixed state right yeah I don't know if that has leveled me off a bit.
spk_0
or balanced me out. It's not like I think see the world really is as crazy as I kept telling
spk_0
everybody it was. Right now I'm just too afraid of what the federal government can do.
spk_0
Yeah, here you and I are depressed and afraid and we are among the most privileged
spk_0
privileged. Right. In the population I can't imagine what it feels like for someone
spk_0
who's trans or of color or is immigrant or an immigrant. My girlfriend won't, she has a green
spk_0
card and she doesn't want to travel outside the country because she's afraid they're like,
spk_0
they'd be like, oh, you know, here's your face at a protest. You're not allowed back in,
spk_0
which is not unrealistic. No, it's not. And I've also been told that we're going to go to Europe
spk_0
next month and somebody told me that when you get back, make sure you delete your social media
spk_0
apps from your phone before you come try and come back through customs because they'll check
spk_0
your Instagram and Facebook feeds and if they see like a post that's not supportive of Trump,
spk_0
for instance, they'll or critical of yeah, they'll give you heart certain foreign governments.
spk_0
Yeah. Well, let me ask you this Rick, are your papers in order? I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know,
spk_0
I don't know that that means anything. I mean, I think right now we feel safe because of that.
spk_0
But it's that what sets that old German saying like I, you know, when they weren't coming from
spk_0
me, I wasn't worried when they weren't coming for anyone that was like me, I wasn't worried
spk_0
until they, you know, there was nobody left to come after. But me, and then I, you know,
spk_0
then I started taking it seriously. It sort of feels like we're in that phase. Like they're going
spk_0
after brown people and I'm not a brown person. So, but, you know, I do feel like this is a,
spk_0
they're just getting started.
spk_0
So, let's talk about living with bipolar. What are some, what are some signs out there?
spk_0
And this may sound kind of obvious, but some signs out there for somebody who, and I realize
spk_0
you're not a medical professional, but for somebody who feels like maybe I should go see a psychiatrist
spk_0
and talk about it. What would be as someone with bipolar that you would say, hey, this might be.
spk_0
Yeah, I think, I think first of all, talking about it and talking about the positive side of it
spk_0
is to help destigmatize it and make it a little less scary for somebody that's going through it
spk_0
that maybe hasn't been diagnosed yet or is in the process of being diagnosed or just going
spk_0
through treatment that you can get to a side of it where you'll be able to recognize, you know,
spk_0
there's all kinds of neurodiversity right now and I think mood disorders are a part of that
spk_0
spectrum. 100 percent? In a weird way, it's like we have to stop talking about those
spk_0
mood disorders, like it's still the 19th century.
spk_0
Give me some examples of where it was a superpower, but it was right on the edge of, this is not healthy.
spk_0
Well, if you can think of any of those are the ones that really kind of interest me because
spk_0
one of the reasons I started the podcast was the subtle nature of metal illness and how cunning
spk_0
it can be. Yeah, I was on a show in another country in London and I had a showrunner who was just
spk_0
kind of crazy, but I, you know, we were working 10 or 12 hour days and then if we had an
spk_0
outline or a script do, there would be like no sleeping. You would have like three, you know,
spk_0
in a normal healthy room, you'd have a week to write something and turn it in, but this would be
spk_0
we needed in two days or we needed three days and I'd be like, well, okay, I don't need to sleep
spk_0
for three days and during that time, like I worked myself luckily to the point of physical exhaustion,
spk_0
but got so ill that like I had to see a doctor and that was the first time my blood pressure was
spk_0
dying was high. Like I'd never had high blood pressure before that that three day, you know,
spk_0
very hyperactive period and I got put on blood pressure meds that I'm still on to this day,
spk_0
but that was one of those like luckily I reached a state of physical collapse before I reached a
spk_0
state of mental collapse. Yeah. So it kind of saved me in a way. It's amazing how often our body
spk_0
befriends us, right? And yet we so often don't listen to it. We're like, I'm not going to take a
spk_0
nap. I'm not weak. Yeah, we say like you're listen to your body, you know, most yeah, sometimes
spk_0
it's telling you things that aren't real, but a lot of the times it knows better than your executive
spk_0
functions know, right? Yeah, I believe that. And I don't know, it's just everything's gotten easier
spk_0
as I've gotten older. I don't have the kind of pressures on, you know, I don't have the kind of
spk_0
pressure that I used to have in life. My kids are all grown and doing well and, you know, and
spk_0
my marriage is great and, you know, my career, I'm, you know, I'm still writing, I'm still writing
spk_0
plays, I'm still writing television projects, but it's all at a much healthier pace now, you know.
spk_0
So is sleeplessness ever a problem? Not really not for me. When you were unmedicated,
spk_0
could you sleep if you wanted to sleep? No, not always. I spend a lot of, I was definitely an
spk_0
insomniac. Like almost every time I was on a show, I would be working in the middle of the night,
spk_0
even if, you know, I was supposed to be sleeping in the middle of the night, but
spk_0
and that behavior is just really encouraged on a lot of, you know, oh my god. I can't imagine
spk_0
how many industries that's like, yeah, rock star, you know, because they can go to the
spk_0
stadium for five days or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else you'd like to share before we were at,
spk_0
but what, if people want to read some of your stuff and we'll put all these links in the show
spk_0
notes, they want to read some of your op-ed stuff. Yeah. I collected all on Substack. Okay. I'm
spk_0
available there. And what's your handle at Substack? Just Rik Cleveland. Okay. I love that you're
spk_0
from Cleveland and your name is Cleveland. Yeah. And I'm sure I'm the first person that pointed
spk_0
that out. No one's ever mentioned that before. One question I did want to ask you is, have you ever
spk_0
created a character that was essentially your dad? Well, kind of, and it was, you know, after my
spk_0
dad passed away, I found out that I could have had him buried in Arlington and I didn't.
spk_0
And, but I could have. And so I got involved in the in the 90s in, I went to the opening for
spk_0
the Korean War Memorial in Washington, D.C. just out of curiosity. And I met a bunch of Korean
spk_0
War vets there and I bought this like coffee table book. And during the first or second week of
spk_0
West Wing, the season one, I was hired as a writer. And I gave that book to our executive producer
spk_0
director, Thomas Schlame. And I said, you know, everybody, you're going to be filming, you know,
spk_0
B-roll and stuff in Washington. Everybody knows the Vietnam wall. Like everyone's seen that. No one
spk_0
seen the Korean War Memorial. I'm pushing that like here's, and I gave him this book and he said,
spk_0
why do you have this? And then I told him, you know, my dad's story essentially and he said,
spk_0
that's an episode. So while at the time, Aaron was juggling Sports Night and West Wing. And so John
spk_0
Wells had us writing standalone scripts when Aaron wasn't in the offices. So I wrote one about
spk_0
one of the characters, Richard Schiff's character, Toby, gets involved with the death of a Korean
spk_0
war veteran and gets him buried in Arlington. And that's the, that's the only episode of that show
spk_0
in seven seasons to win the writing Emmy. Really? Yeah. Kudos, man. Yeah. Kudos. If people wanted to
spk_0
track down that episode, does it have a title in Excelsis Dayo? Could there be a more difficult to
spk_0
remember name? Yeah, it's Latin. Aaron picked it. You couldn't have called it Rick Cleveland's Dad.
spk_0
Yeah, right. I tried. That's it in parentheses. Yeah. Cleveland's Dad.
spk_0
Well, buddy, I'm really glad our paths crossed and thanks so much for coming by. Thank you, Paul.
spk_0
Really nice to meet him. Finally, really nice. I don't know if Rick has any links for the show
spk_0
notes, but if we have any links to his stuff, we will put that in the show notes. And as always,
spk_0
we if we if we have an advertiser where I read the ad, we'll put that link in the show notes.
spk_0
This is the week where we read the bulk of the surveys on Patreon, but I do have a couple of
spk_0
surveys to read to read here. This is from the Struggling of Sentence Survey and this is filled
spk_0
out by a guy who calls himself KRS one. Love me some KRS one about his depression. He writes,
spk_0
I feel like I'm trapped and that the world is passing me by. That one really, really hit me.
spk_0
It is the feeling of things passing by. I had this when I read this, I had this image
spk_0
of depression being like renting a basement apartment and you see just the feet of people passing
spk_0
you by living their lives as you just look out that window and you feel trapped and stuck and below.
spk_0
Just below the quality of life that you imagine other people having and we never, we never imagine
spk_0
that somebody else might be struggling in that moment. We just always think, oh, I got it worse.
spk_0
This is also from the Struggling of Sentence Survey and this is filled out by a woman who calls
spk_0
herself Lauren and about her sex addiction. She writes, when my emotions fall short of comprehension,
spk_0
my body speaks with the most profound clarity. That is such a good one. And this one, I'm not really sure
spk_0
if it's about PTSD. And I'm not sure if she's talking about having the act of having had an abortion
spk_0
and having PTSD from that or having been assaulted and having to have an abortion afterwards. But
spk_0
anyway, what she writes is if it was an abortion I was afraid of, I wouldn't have so readily
spk_0
agreed to it. The emptiness that follows is what haunts me. It's always the ripples, man.
spk_0
It's always the ripples. That's the shit that that has so much of the power.
spk_0
This is Struggling of Sentence and this is filled out by a woman who calls herself Shelley G
spk_0
and about her depression. She writes, feels like I'm walking along the edge of where life and death
spk_0
meet and I'm constantly fighting with myself about which side I'm supposed to be on.
spk_0
And she's a teenager.
spk_0
Send in you, send in you some loving good vibes, Shelley.
spk_0
It's so hard when you're a teenager and you're feeling that way because you don't have enough
spk_0
lived experience to know that things are going to change. Everything feels like forever.
spk_0
This is from the Shea Men Secret Survey and this is filled out by a woman who calls herself
spk_0
smoking snail. Oh, she is also a teenager and she identifies as gay, says that she was raised in
spk_0
a stable and safe environment. She'd never been sexually abused. Although she writes, my dance
spk_0
teacher in kindergarten was a pedophile. He was convicted in 2018 and died in 2020 in parentheses
spk_0
mysterious reasons. Somebody probably killed him. My lifelong friend was his victim. I only know
spk_0
it because I made an offhand remark about him and she said that he is the reason for her PTSD.
spk_0
I knew she had it but I didn't know why. But I spent the last few days researching and I feel sick.
spk_0
I'm angry and confused about my feelings and I feel so bad for her. Mainly I feel guilty because
spk_0
I was supposed to go with her on the dance trip where the most awful things happened. Maybe I
spk_0
could have helped her but I was only five. At least that fucker is dead. Yeah, even if you were
spk_0
20 when it happened, he alone is responsible for what he did.
spk_0
But my God certainly at five. I mean, that doesn't that speak to the power of
spk_0
the way our brain does not want to accept that there is often random painful chaos
spk_0
in the universe.
spk_0
If I would have done this, if I would have done that,
spk_0
which to me is a way of trying to control it because then we can avoid thinking, I don't know
spk_0
why that happened. Because if we can know it, we think we can control it, I guess.
spk_0
She is not sure if she's been physically or emotionally abused. She writes,
spk_0
my father sometimes hits me. I would say, yeah, that's physical abuse. He doesn't cross lines
spk_0
in parentheses. No physical marks. That doesn't matter. It doesn't have to leave a mark to be
spk_0
physical abuse. He doesn't do it often. That doesn't matter. Do it one time. That's physical abuse.
spk_0
I can't describe the feeling after. It's a positive one. It reminds me that my actions have
spk_0
consequences and impact on other people. The impact on him is so big that words aren't enough.
spk_0
He feels strong emotions because of me, me, my mistakes. I feel like a person. Boy, that one,
spk_0
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one. But I appreciate you, if you're listening,
spk_0
I appreciate you writing such personal, complex feelings out. One of the things that I get so much
spk_0
out of doing this podcast is I learned so much about other people's outer lives, but especially
spk_0
their inner lives. Darkest thoughts. Sometimes I wish my friends died, specifically my very suicidal
spk_0
friends. I feel like I grieved for them countless times. I'm so tired of worrying.
spk_0
And darkest secrets. I took my mother's razor to cut myself and then I put it back.
spk_0
I am going to skip the sexual fantasy question. What if anything would you like to say to someone
spk_0
you haven't been able to? I have said everything I wanted. What if anything do you wish for? I wish
spk_0
to be motivated to live. Have you shared these things with others? No. How do you feel after
spk_0
writing these things down? Weird. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares
spk_0
your thoughts or experiences? I hope you'll live. Thank you for filling this out and you are not
spk_0
alone in the things that you feel. I appreciate you taking the time to fill this out. There was
spk_0
something else I wanted to say. I wish to be motivated to live and you wrote that you haven't
spk_0
shared these things with others. I really encourage you to find somebody to open up to about
spk_0
your feeling. Somebody who is safe. Just know that if you do, I hope this doesn't come across.
spk_0
Like why did you have to say that? But if you tell a mandated reporter, i.e. a doctor, a therapist,
spk_0
an educator, that you're actively suicidal, they are mandated to report that. But there's a
spk_0
difference between suicidal ideation and being actively suicidal. I think the majority of the
spk_0
population in my opinion experience suicidal ideation. I certainly do. But I've never been
spk_0
actively suicidal, which means that you have the means, the intent, and a plan. So all of that is to say
spk_0
please open up to somebody about what it is that you're feeling because there are often
spk_0
ways of managing and tools to cope that we're unaware of, especially when we're long
spk_0
young like you are. Anyway, thank you for filling that out. And then finally, these are some love. This
spk_0
is filled out by nag champa. No idea what that means. That's so good. I love the creaky wood floor
spk_0
at my yoga studio. There is a bench in one of the locker rooms where I play hockey. And I do not
spk_0
love it because it makes this squeaky noise that sounds like nails on a blackboard. And I hope one day
spk_0
to find the ability to enjoy that creakiness. I love my peaceful and quiet home.
spk_0
Now this one's sweet. I love laying on my husband's chest as he holds me.
spk_0
And I love this one. I love witnessing my dog learn to trust me after adopting her from the shelter.
spk_0
That is the best. I forget the name of the guy who has a YouTube channel where he goes and I believe
spk_0
his girlfriend or wife works at the shelter and he goes in and he earns the trust of the really
spk_0
skittish dogs and just seeing them begin to warm up to him and sometimes it takes multiple days or
spk_0
a week or two. But that's really beautiful. I wish I could remember the name of his channel. But
spk_0
now that the podcast is over, you can go google it. And he's got like I think like a million
spk_0
subscribers, something like that is his videos get like upwards of 7800,000 views if not more. So
spk_0
check it out. If you're out there and you feel in stuck and and you feel like there's no answer.
spk_0
Be amazed. Be amazed at how much there is to learn about coping in the world and how many people
spk_0
are all around us that can relate to us and can help us manage it. And
spk_0
and Gracie says hi and Pablo says hi and I say hi.
spk_0
And you're not alone at thanks for listening.
spk_0
Everybody I know is bizarrely beautiful. Everybody I know is bizarrely beautiful.
Topics Covered
bipolar disorder
mental health podcast
Rick Cleveland interview
destigmatizing mood disorders
compulsive negative thinking
fall depression
emotional well-being
support groups
codependency
self-acceptance
mental health struggles
narrative structure in film
anxiety and depression
personal stories of trauma
the impact of childhood experiences