#344: ... But the Second Leaves a Mark

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello everybody and welcome to episode number 344 of the board game barrage podcast.

spk_0 I am your host Neelan the orange tank and with me as always is Mark the green tank. Hello. Are we gonna do a joke here?

spk_0 We're Kellen is here and we're gonna do a yeah yeah we speed it up the timer for a certain yes or slow down but up and down both yeah you have it back and forth

spk_0 Kellen get your audio fix. Yeah

spk_0 Yeah, just

spk_0 just run back the greatest hit. Yeah, a couple of months. No, it is just Mark and I it is just Mark and I Kellen is

spk_0 Kellen is in Vegas. I was afraid out on this gallon. So he's there he's right he's right. He's right.

spk_0 Yeah, he's practically around the corner from exactly not only could he but he couldn't be bothered to show

spk_0 a record. No, but yes, he is otherwise indisposed with work. But that is okay. We are going to power through

spk_0 just Mark and I we're gonna power you we're gonna do we're gonna be talking about love right Neelan exactly that's it

spk_0 like one of the podcast host and another yeah exactly so a little bit of a peak behind the curtain here we had this

spk_0 idea to do an episode based on the games that got us into the hobby like the things that kind of made us who we are

spk_0 until it's something that inevitably happens we realized that we did that episode. Although it was in our

spk_0 defense seven years ago something like that almost seven years ago the podcasting it yeah seven years ago I just

spk_0 it's mine. I know I we were like on the forefront of it. I think we might have invented it and not realized what we

spk_0 did onto it at the time. It's really weird known trademark to do something. Yeah, it hasn't. But

spk_0 nevertheless we decided that what we're gonna do is we can sort of pivot that a little bit so not necessarily

spk_0 the games like more formative for us but games that we kind of like matured our love for the hobby games

spk_0 are sort of like we're the second wave things are kind of really progressed and and critically actually one of

spk_0 the things we want to sort of focus on is games that maybe we don't talk about so much anymore at least not

spk_0 as much games were once like very prominent in our gaming lives but not as much but anyway that is a lot

spk_0 of rambling for the second half of the episode coming up later before we do that we are gonna be

spk_0 talking about De La Fliechen der Hollanda which is my terrible German pronunciation for Marx game

spk_0 and then I'm gonna be talking about you know I've heard people say that I've been talking about too

spk_0 many Lord of the Rings games so I'm gonna do a game based on another beloved fantasy novel thank

spk_0 goodness the Hobbit that is the Hobbit there and back again I'll be talking about that a little bit

spk_0 but Mark tell me about De La Fliechen der Hollanda yes okay so thank you Neil and for setting the

spk_0 bar so high in the using the correct pronunciation which I will not be doing but anyhow thanks

spk_0 probably not probably not at least it sounds correct you might not be correct but if you can't

spk_0 actually do it then you fake it till you make it I guess or something like that anyhow thanks to my

spk_0 friend Cameron who has a pension for an collection of these older especially German games I got a chance

spk_0 to play I'm gonna say Der Fliegen Hollanda probably I'll splice in Neil and pronunciation there

spk_0 to make it sound better but that translates and I soon as I said this to Neil and in our pre show

spk_0 discussion he knew exactly what translated into which is the flying Dutchman not that that's

spk_0 gonna help you any since this game never actually got an English translation from the original 1992

spk_0 93 edition from Parker games although did get a new edition in 2016 but that is a Japanese only

spk_0 version so if you're looking for the flying Dutchman in English you are at a luck however and more

spk_0 importantly this game again which came out in 1992 came out three years before its designer would

spk_0 release a little game called settlers of Katan ever heard of it Neelan I'm familiar I yeah yeah

spk_0 kind of a big deal kind of a big deal anyway that's right this is a class tuber design so along with

spk_0 the fact that I'd never heard of this game the fact that tuber was a designer of it had me really

spk_0 interested in trying Der Fliegen Hollanda so while it's got this nautical theme of the flying

spk_0 Dutchman which carries across the entire game what the flying Dutchman and I'll keep calling

spk_0 it that to avoid frustrating German speaking listeners from now on is it what it really is is a

spk_0 stock market game sort of but let me explain so the way it works is you've got this board which

spk_0 shows a bunch of different ships in different colors all over it with a few islands in between but

spk_0 the board is predominantly has these like identical pictures of ships but all in different colors and

spk_0 they're all separated by lines which connect all of them and then on it to start the game you're

spk_0 gonna place this black ship piece which is presumably the flying Dutchman itself each player starts with

spk_0 some money which is going to be victory points at the end of the game a couple of these horseshoe

spk_0 shaped bidding tokens more about that later three random let's call them stock cards that match the

spk_0 ship colors on the board so you can have three cards randomly assigned to you that match like the

spk_0 different colors that are on the board and three Schmidt and three contour cards now I don't know what

spk_0 Schmidt or contour translate into from the original German but I don't think I really want to know

spk_0 as I might prefer getting the chance to play a Schmidt card so I don't even want to know what

spk_0 Schmidt is but that's what you have you have Schmidt and contour you're gonna tell me what

spk_0 Schmidt means now you know Schmidt is not ringing any bells okay great perfect that's exactly I

spk_0 want you know what it means I do not I have never looked it up no you have no idea ignorance

spk_0 and split it's a Schmidt card it's all I need to know so the way it works is whoever's the first

spk_0 player is gonna throw a couple dice one die is a ten digit die and the other one is a single digit

spk_0 die so you might roll a 40 on one die and a six on the other die for example and then so in that

spk_0 round the lucky number and this starts every round is 46 for example in that in that example so

spk_0 what do you do so it's very simple starting with the first player and then going around the table

spk_0 you can do one of just three things so the first thing you could do and this is like sort of like

spk_0 the most influential action of the game is you're gonna try to bid to control where the flying

spk_0 detriment is gonna go to next that is like the sort of biggest action you can take the way you do

spk_0 that is if you choose to take this bidding action you are going to bid some of these horseshoe tokens

spk_0 and you're going to bid some of them face down in front of you and once you've gone around the table

spk_0 everyone who's chosen this option of bidding to control the flying detriment is gonna flip their

spk_0 horseshoe tokens over and whoever is closest to the number that lucky number I mentioned earlier

spk_0 without going over so you have prices right rules for American listeners gets to choose where the

spk_0 flying detriment goes gets to choose where to move it around why this is important and much more

spk_0 interestingly what happens if people tie during this bid I'll talk about a little bit later so when

spk_0 the flying detriment is moved you're moving in one space and it can either move to again one of these

spk_0 colored ships that is all over the board again most of the spaces you're gonna move to are these

spk_0 colored ships or it can go to an island if it goes to a colored space everyone with a share or

spk_0 stock card in that color must reveal that and if you have one of those colors represented in your

spk_0 three stock cards wherever that stock is in value you have to pay that money to the bank so for

spk_0 example if the ship is moved to a purple space and you have a purple card in your hand you have

spk_0 to reveal any purple cards in your hand and let's say the purple value is at eight at that point

spk_0 for every purple card in your hand you have to pay eight ducats to the bank and if you can't

spk_0 if you don't have the money to pay you are eliminated from the game so that is player elimination which

spk_0 is again a bygone sort of mechanic for the most part thankfully this didn't happen to us it doesn't

spk_0 seem to happen very often but it is something to consider that if you don't have the money to pay if

spk_0 you are holding a stock that gets hit by the slag dutchman you are out of the game now not only

spk_0 that does that happen not only do you have to pay but in addition whatever color gets landed on in

spk_0 this case for this example purple that stock value goes from wherever it started wherever it was

spk_0 it crashes now it goes all the way down to a camera if it's one or zero but whatever the value

spk_0 whatever the color is crashes in value to the bottom and then after that happens all stocks all

spk_0 colors go up in value by one so if you have a stock that avoids getting landed on for a while

spk_0 let's say like red is never landed on every time another color is landed on that red will

spk_0 incrementally get pushed up one and one and one and it'll go up and up in value so that's one

spk_0 thing you can move the flying Dutchman to a color most of the game is that the other thing is

spk_0 you can move the flying Dutchman to an island conversely instead of one of these colored chips

spk_0 if you do so anyone involved in moving the ship to the island can now reveal any of the

spk_0 three shares that they have in their hand and they get whatever the value of that share is

spk_0 whatever that value that color is in money immediately to their hand so if you landed on an island

spk_0 and you saw red was worth eight you could reveal it at red card and you'd get eight dollars

spk_0 now I say anyone involved in moving the ship and this has to do with those ties I was talking about

spk_0 because ties forbidding for control the ship happen a lot in my experience so again you roll

spk_0 this lucky number everybody now knows like lucky number in this case is 51 or whatever it is

spk_0 and so when you're bidding you can often land right on that number which is the best bid in

spk_0 other words in that case if there are multiple people who are tied for the best bid everyone involved

spk_0 must agree unanimously to move the ship to a specific location if they can't if they can't

spk_0 unanimously agree then another round of this bidding occurs between the players involved so in

spk_0 that case not only do you lose your bidding tokens that you use for the initial bid but now you

spk_0 are going to be investing more bidding tokens and they are hard to come by more about that later but

spk_0 this is like becomes now a very heavy investment and so people generally want to avoid that and then

spk_0 this is where you get some of that really fun negotiation that I love in games like this where

spk_0 you're like I'll give you three bucks and she'll give you two bucks if you agree to move the ship

spk_0 where we want to go you get that sort of thing because people are incentivized to avoid another round

spk_0 of bidding and negotiate to unanimously move the flying Dutchman ship so that's that's one of the

spk_0 three actions you can do is to place a bid to move the flying Dutchman really quickly the other two

spk_0 actions are either playing one of your schmied cards or one of your contour cards again you only have

spk_0 three of each of these kinds of cards and once you play one of them they're out of the game I forgot

spk_0 to mention this but whenever one of these bidding phases that I just talked about ends all the bidding

spk_0 tokens that have been used for that bidding phase get thrown in a pile face down now if you

spk_0 have played a schmied card you and anybody else in that round who have played a schmied card get

spk_0 to split those bidding tokens among yourselves so this is a closed economy in terms of the bidding

spk_0 tokens because these bidding tokens are only circulated among the players no new ones will come out so

spk_0 if you for example let's say you're last and turn order in a round and it comes to your deciding

spk_0 what action you're going to do and nobody has played a schmied card if you're the only person in

spk_0 a round to play a schmied card you get all the bidding tokens that are in that pile if somebody else

spk_0 has played it you split it between the two of you if more people have played schmied cards you all

spk_0 split it amongst yourself and so this is a really cool aspect of the game that I liked where

spk_0 you're trying to maximize the leverage you have based on where you are in turn order like sometimes

spk_0 it's better to be early in turn order because you can sort of set a marker saying okay I'm playing

spk_0 a schmied card right now and so if you want to play a schmied card know that the power of your

spk_0 cards are lessened but if you're playing later in turn order you can sort of see the lay the land

spk_0 and decide what you want to do so that's action number two one is bidding for moving the

spk_0 Dutchman which is again the main action second one is playing a schmied card last one is playing

spk_0 one of your three contour cards and these allow you to draw two cards from a deck of the stock cards

spk_0 these colored stock cards and so you draw two cards and you look at them you discard any two cards

spk_0 you have and so playing these contour cards are the only chance you have to try to change which stocks

spk_0 or shares or colors whatever you want to call them you're invested in and you only ever have

spk_0 three of these opportunities to cycle through and you only ever have three share cards you never

spk_0 ever get more of them so playing these cards can be very powerful because they're your only

spk_0 opportunity to pivot in terms of what you're invested in and so that's the flying Dutchman that's

spk_0 at the end of any round you pass the dice to the next player and they become the first player

spk_0 and so on and so on until the game ends it's a game with very sharp edges and definitely not a

spk_0 game for everyone and it's a game I think you'll want at least four people but would probably do

spk_0 best at five or potentially with a full complement of six although I can't speak about that personally

spk_0 but five seem to be a pretty sweet spot to play this game I personally very much enjoyed it with

spk_0 so few shares that you could ever get your hands on and how punishing it was when the flying

spk_0 Dutchman did land on one of your colors this is a game that that has really stressful wavy choices

spk_0 but choices that are pretty clear like this is again a great example of a game where the rules

spk_0 and the options that you have are pretty darn clear and the game gets out of your way and you get

spk_0 the hang of it pretty much immediately and you can spend your brain power not trying to figure out

spk_0 what it was rule for this like you know the rules and you get right to like the interesting

spk_0 decision making if the number of stock market games on the market is any indication there are

spk_0 ton of folks who like these kind of games these stock market games and if you're one of them I would

spk_0 definitely see if you get your hands on a copy of this and they seem not to be super pricey I think

spk_0 this game is something like ten dollars on the second day market kind of gives me in a way or

spk_0 might be a little bit of QE the economic game in terms of how like fresh it felt again although

spk_0 this game came out you know in 92 so you know 30 years or whatever it go now but also how simple

spk_0 it sort of is to understand you know QE strikes me this game economic game where like it is kind

spk_0 of wild and in what it's proposing and how it's playing but the rules aren't really that complicated

spk_0 and you sort of can get right into it so yeah I think if you're a fan of economic stock market

spk_0 games or even looking for a party-ish game with people that you know like this kind of thing because

spk_0 this game again is very easy to teach very talky very interactive and is over 60 minutes so I think

spk_0 even we're working that party sort of vibe I would suggest it's again not going to be for everyone but

spk_0 I suggest trying to get your hands on a copy of Der fliegend holander by clouds tober if you can

spk_0 I think that's a fun combination of things where it's like both not very very heavy is offering

spk_0 something that you tend to associate bidding stock games with something a lot heavier like

spk_0 you see like something like QE is kind of the exception to that but like this feels kind of not

spk_0 quite as light and frivolous as that is but like a little bit of a step up but still like not

spk_0 incredibly heavy like it feels like a good combination of things that and that bidding system

spk_0 sounds really really fun like I like the way that it could just devolve into the arguing I mean it

spk_0 it's like I can see a family for some reason I'm associating this with Kellyn's family I don't know

spk_0 why this is probably not accurate like you know because like how is how is dad likes a choir

spk_0 exactly yeah I was gonna be the same yeah exactly yeah like if you have friends or family who are

spk_0 not necessarily board gamers but like stock market-y sort of games like obviously that type of

spk_0 group would probably not like a heavy stock market game or something is very intricate but if you

spk_0 something like that if they like that economic light economic interactive game I think you

spk_0 could teach them this even though not a word of it is in English it's really simple to teach and

spk_0 has a lot of those fun moments a lot of like pleading negotiation trying to figure out what cars

spk_0 people have because they're only holding three so it's not like that involved or complicated so

spk_0 yeah it just it felt like a like a diamond in the rough so one I would recommend well cool okay

spk_0 I'm gonna be talking about the hobbit there and back again this is another board game based on

spk_0 middle earth this time not load of the rings this one's based around the story of the hobbit and

spk_0 I'm quite mean literally the story because this is a scenario based game where each scenario each

spk_0 set up for this is one of the many spots along the journey of the hobbit this is a competitive game

spk_0 this is not a campaign game and any sort of sense like you could just jump from some scenario to

spk_0 scenario where you could play them in order if you wanted to a this is a role in right game be very

spk_0 cool very a fun very accessible you have these great chunky books and each book you open the

spk_0 page to is like the new adventure that you're playing in that round and it's just dry erase markers

spk_0 see rhino knitsia huh it's a very compelling combination of things like lovely sort of chunky

spk_0 components lovely adorable theme well represented art and you've got that rhino knitsia pedigree so

spk_0 like how does this all come together what is the game what is all about the basic gist of it is the

spk_0 most immediate pull I can think of and this it's not exactly right but it's a good entry point is

spk_0 railroading where is a role in right game you're going to roll a bunch of dice and most of those

spk_0 dice not all of them but most of them represent parts that you can draw and that might be okay this

spk_0 is two blocks right next to each other one is a straight path one is an L shape path or there might be

spk_0 three blocks adjacent to each other but they're forming on giant L you know like there's a mix of

spk_0 combinations of these different parts represented on a die and then in typical role in right

spk_0 fashion you'll just pick one of those dice on your turn so you know you roll for all five of them

spk_0 one player picks one another player picks one but but by until dice are gone okay like say the

spk_0 majority of those dice is for drawing these paths so if you pick that die you draw a path on your

spk_0 board now the way that this actually works is quite fundamentally different from mission to mission

spk_0 so let's talk about the first one for example you have a bunch of dwarfs scattered around your board

spk_0 they're all trying to get to bullbow's house so whenever you pick one of those path dice you're

spk_0 just picking a dwarf to start drawing a path or you know continue drawing their path until it

spk_0 connects up to to bullbow's house the objective for this scenario is to get as many of those dwarves

spk_0 to bullbow's house in order to get points for them better yet if they're fed then they get extra

spk_0 points for them so how do they get fed one of the other dice you could be drafting instead could be

spk_0 a die that has a bread symbol on it now crucially all these dice are actually different from one

spk_0 another so a few of them are exclusively path dice some of them have some combination of bread on

spk_0 them some of them might have swords on them which could also be something you're collecting for

spk_0 points at the end of the scenario some of them are Gandalf wizard hat dice which generally give

spk_0 you sort of a mix of different special favors you can trade in if you sort of start collecting those

spk_0 dice you can turn them in later for different effects and again these vary from each scenario to

spk_0 and it's kind of with all of these things connecting that you start to see like a little bit of

spk_0 what feels to me like the Rhine of knitsy magic because all of that might sound very stayed very

spk_0 kind of being there done that that's a lot of roll and writing I basically just described a lot

spk_0 of different rolling rights but then you start to see how all these things have tradeoffs and how

spk_0 like okay do I feed my dwarves before they arrive and get points if I don't have the bread as they

spk_0 arrive then they don't get the points the scoring on the bread is not exactly in a straight line so

spk_0 it goes like one two three four two three four five so you might want to deliberately not feed the

spk_0 lower scoring dwarves so you can feed the higher scoring dwarves if you think you're not

spk_0 able to feed all the dwarves in addition there's a little race going on in the corners if you're

spk_0 trying to get Gandalf to your home before another player does so there's a lot that you're kind of

spk_0 like competing with swords have this sort of cumulative scoring that could be too powerful if one

spk_0 person gets all of them so there's just there's a healthy dose of heatstrafting in this which I

spk_0 really really love there's a healthy dose of looking at the pool of dice looking at someone else's

spk_0 board and being like oh this is too good for you or I'm not gonna let you get that sword because

spk_0 you have too many or I know who desperately need bread so I'm gonna take the only bread in the pool

spk_0 before you can take it which just feels great just adds an injection of something interesting and

spk_0 fresh to this that to a game that would otherwise be maybe a little bit dull and on top of that each

spk_0 of these scenarios like I said feels quite different from another like the second one is kind of

spk_0 more a little bit of a race game where you're kind of like traveling along this huge path the day

spk_0 weaving around corners the first person to get to each new region gets a bunch of points the first

spk_0 person to kill the trolls in that region gets points so it's like it's this balance between staying

spk_0 behind in a region to get stuff and moving forward ahead so there's a fair bit going on that feels

spk_0 quite different while still utilizing the same shared mechanic it reminds me a little bit of what

spk_0 welcome to the moon was trying to do where you kind of it's the same idea right you have the shared

spk_0 sort of system a bunch of different missions in this kind of shared game but that kind of to me

spk_0 didn't feel like it felt very cohesive I kind of felt like each of the missions in the welcome

spk_0 to the moon kind of felt like so disparate from each other that they were barely using the core

spk_0 mechanic in a weird way this feels a lot more coherent a lot kind of more like it's building off

spk_0 of the ideas from one game to the next I don't want to oversell it though it's still very much a

spk_0 rollin right you know like you you're gonna go no going in if this is a game for you based kind

spk_0 of that that description it's not necessarily breaking the mold on doing something that's so

spk_0 incredible or so unique or so different that I'm gonna be like oh yeah you have to have this but

spk_0 if the combination of accessible gorgeous production rollin right resonates with you with a little

spk_0 bit of that right now needs a design flare that's gonna make it feel just a little bit more interesting

spk_0 a little bit more engaging than your average game in this genre I think you might find something

spk_0 to like in this I think it's pretty neat I really do really love the presentation of it and

spk_0 having only played like a few of the scenarios I'm excited to get through the rest of them yeah

spk_0 when you said rollin right immediately and probably to no surprise to you or anybody listening like

spk_0 I was thinking this was not gonna be something I was interested in at all however the production

spk_0 is just really appealing it is undoubtedly really appealing and obviously mixed writer needs to end

spk_0 and you sort of have my intention although I will say that when you said it was sort of like railroad

spk_0 and which is the game that I like I'm not saying railroad ink is bad I sort of was worried and

spk_0 in looking at the dice like that I'm sort of looking at pictures the dice seem railroad inky I'm

spk_0 like oh is this gonna be too close to that but it definitely does not seem to be like and I find

spk_0 myself interested in playing this for sure let me ask you so there are a number of different like

spk_0 missions or chapters or whatever would you say like you would play one chapter in a session and

spk_0 that would be fine like how long is a chapter go for example it's like 20 to 30 minutes per game

spk_0 so like we played multiple in like one session okay so you know we blew through you know what

spk_0 actually don't know offhand how many chapters there are sure total but we blew through four in one

spk_0 session for example so like it was definitely that that feeling of like more ishness right of like

spk_0 playing one it being short enough and then being like oh I want to see what the next one does right

spk_0 and then you just you turn the page you're like oh this looks interesting and you're about to put it

spk_0 away but then you're like let's just do this like you know like it's exactly because none of the rules

spk_0 are complicated that's just like it takes you a few minutes just to read the rules for that section

spk_0 in fact you could just read the rules out loud once in a couple of minutes at everyone knows what's

spk_0 happening right none of them are really that complicated in our experience so far it's reminiscent

spk_0 to me of another runner's e2 game my city which it kind of just has that that feeling of like okay

spk_0 you have a core to this it doesn't have that kind of you know legacy component that that game has

spk_0 where every game is building on the previous one but it just got that feeling of like man I just

spk_0 want to keep picking at this I just want to keep sort of seeing where this goes like what he does

spk_0 with it you know like yeah there's always just something interesting a novel he's doing with the

spk_0 system in the next game you know which is just it's a lovely thing to discover I think the thing that

spk_0 I would I would say is probably like a potentially big caveat is I'm not sure I'm necessarily going

spk_0 to want to replay this once I play through the chapters you know like but like at that point I would

spk_0 have had eight half hour games of this I would have just treated it like a little mini campaign

spk_0 and I feel like I would have got what I wanted that yeah yeah so that's not even necessarily

spk_0 that big of a caveat for me like I would be very content to like play through this once not every

spk_0 game needs to be or is even aiming to be like your favorite game of all time some games are just

spk_0 no real quick and you go through them and and that's what they're offering and yeah I mean absolutely

spk_0 for what it's worth again I don't hate rolling like game but they generally are not things they

spk_0 get excited about but this does seem like something that even going in knowing that it's I'm sure

spk_0 as I agree with my favorite game of all time or top 50 seems like fresh and interesting and fun

spk_0 and with a lot of different twists on the same core mechanism uh yeah I'm definitely interested in

spk_0 this a couple of like little things that you want to say as well is that like although Railroad Inc

spk_0 is a good entry point into just like this is that type of a role in writing game I would say that I

spk_0 found this a lot more inherently satisfying that game like it's also it's both more satisfying

spk_0 and also like I would say you know Railroad Inc often gets quite constrained and you very quickly

spk_0 sort of realize oh you're not going to be able to do all the things you want to do this has a

spk_0 gentler cozier feel to it like it is quite family friendly it's kind of just a lovely time is kind

spk_0 of the nicest most succinct way I can describe it yeah that is the hubbit there and back again by

spk_0 office dog the publisher and Rhino Keats here okay so before we move on to the rest of the episode

spk_0 just a couple of little things in the middle of the here which is we have a patreon if you are not

spk_0 familiar that is over at boardgamebarrage.com slash patreon or patreon.com slash boardgamebarrage

spk_0 and if you are not already listening to our bonus episodes then let me tell you there are twice as

spk_0 many episodes of the podcast as you might think exist every other week we also do a bonus episode

spk_0 where we talk about other stuff that's going on in our life whether that's the stuff we're watching

spk_0 just general day to day mark has updates on his soccer league shenanigans i'm talking about video

spk_0 games here and there movie reviews just the other stuff that we're talking about that is oh yeah

spk_0 lots of lots of movie and tv reviews basically the stuff that isn't primarily boardgame related although

spk_0 we do have some board game talk there sure that is out over at boardgamebarrage.com slash patreon if

spk_0 you are interested in those bonus episodes there's also some special so bonus tears for people in

spk_0 the discord so head on over there and we huge the appreciate if you check that out one other

spk_0 quick thing to talk about is we are in the middle of voting for our draft see if you've listened to

spk_0 our draft episode which was the previous episode and you have not already voted you can head on over

spk_0 to boigamebarrage.com slash draft to vote for the winner of who you think has the best selection

spk_0 and if you do that you could be eligible to win $200 that's right 100 dollars much to count on this

spk_0 protestation that it should be much higher but we're captain it 100 okay let's move on to the main

spk_0 topic which is what we call in the smirk i think so this is the piggyback fairly directly to episode 41

spk_0 again which is recorded back in 2018 where we talked about the games that sort of like made us the

spk_0 board gamers that we are so those were formative games that sort of got us from childhood in board

spk_0 gaming where we were just young pups who didn't understand what games were and we progressed from

spk_0 tic-tac-toe and whatever to actually entering the board gaming hobby so i like to think of this as like

spk_0 we're now like adolescence in the board game hobby and like we know we've sort of shed the puppy

spk_0 love and now we are maybe we're dating a little bit we were like actually going on a first date

spk_0 these are this is like you know we're not necessarily we haven't matured yet but this is what sort of

spk_0 got us really going in the hobby once we sort of entered it yeah i like that kind of like a puppy

spk_0 love is almost like a good little good good word for that yeah that i'm trying to think of like the

spk_0 what's the top i can't help i have cale in my head trying to think you know trying to force

spk_0 episode titles on me before we even recorded the episode cale is definitely the devil of my

spk_0 shoulder trying to come up with like sexualized terms for what we should call this episode for sure

spk_0 that's what i doubt yeah like like let's first date sport gaming first date yeah totally i like that

spk_0 so why don't you kick us off mark why don't you tell us the first game on your list that fits the

spk_0 bill here yeah so these games are games that again we're influential to me as i was first getting

spk_0 into board games in a quote unquote serious manner so there's no really clear way for me to sort

spk_0 these in order like there's i wouldn't say those ones are more influential than the others and

spk_0 the chronology at this point has escaped me so i'm not really sure when i played these games but they

spk_0 all have like special meaning and moments and were special moments for me again in my evolution

spk_0 as a board gamer for lack of better terms so the first one i'm going to talk about is a game that

spk_0 when i was looking for a board game groups this is now i realize i'm interested in board games

spk_0 i want to meet other people who are into board games i've not yet met nielin and calon and

spk_0 dean and that great indoors group but i'm joining random meetups i'm just trying to find any people

spk_0 who get into this hobby knows hobby and offer me a chance to play games so there was this meetup

spk_0 i went to fairly regularly is i think it's a couple times a month but i didn't really know anybody

spk_0 there and they had a lot of turnover in this meetup and so you never really got a chance an

spk_0 SLA to like form connections least i didn't and maybe that's because i was sort of late into this

spk_0 group and whatever but a game that was there that i found myself always enjoying and was a big party

spk_0 game and got a lot of people together to play was a game called cs files are you familiar with cs

spk_0 files interesting though i have no heard of this at all so cs files was a Taiwanese game that would

spk_0 be published the next year as deception murder in hong kong so this was like a two full interesting

spk_0 thing for me where this game like allowed me to interact because this is like deception murder

spk_0 hong kong this generally is better with more players so it allowed me to play with a bunch of

spk_0 people at the same time and talk to people because there's a lot of interaction this game so it's

spk_0 sort of allowed me to be social with other people but also was a game that i had never heard of and

spk_0 not that i was like super knowledgeable at this point in my gaming career but i had never heard of

spk_0 this this is like a small Taiwanese game and it was my first time not that this happens very often

spk_0 but like seeing a game that i played i was thinking myself this game is fantastic how come i've

spk_0 never heard of it and then the next year seeing it on Kickstarter and seeing a lot of buzz being

spk_0 generated for it and again would later become a game that i enjoyed a great great deal i think

spk_0 it was in my top 50 at some point but it's always been a game that i've enjoyed and this also

spk_0 was a fundamental game in terms of my game trading career because so i played this game cs files

spk_0 really really liked it found out that we're going to do another version of it as you know the

spk_0 american version deception murder hong kong and there was buzz for it but there wasn't like a

spk_0 crazy amount of buzz if memory serves i could be wrong but if memory serves i remember thinking

spk_0 this game is actually going to do much better than the sense i'm sort of getting and people don't

spk_0 realize like how good this game is going to be so this might have been my first or second foray

spk_0 into kick starters and i bought myself a five pack of this game thinking myself this game is going

spk_0 to be better than anybody thinks it's going to be so i bought a pack of five and i think i still

spk_0 this is like very crass and very dumb of me but like i still remember that i bought them for like

spk_0 on kick starter for like twenty dollars up each they're like that's what the cost was for buying

spk_0 a five pack and i sold slash traded them at a value of like eighty dollars per game because it was

spk_0 so hot when a first came out of people realize how good it was and that was my first like really

spk_0 nailing it in the trading market so that sort of fueled the monster i've since become so cs file

spk_0 slash deception murder hong kong back in 2013 14 was a was a really big game for me informing who

spk_0 that yeah that's great because like like i mean i i i feel like even for the group deans group

spk_0 where we kind of will met i felt like deception was such a formative game for all of us around

spk_0 that time as well so like i have a lot of great memories of just playing that with you and

spk_0 counting Christina so yeah that absolutely tracks for me and especially like i don't think i

spk_0 even realized like it was i would never have guessed that you were playing it and like it's

spk_0 prototyping right right you know form to some extent that's cool so the first game on my list is not

spk_0 to make this too much of like a throwback to like the previous episode that we were talking about

spk_0 the one from seven years ago but like that ended off with me talking about through the ages and

spk_0 kind of like how formative that was for me in the first like few months relatively of my playing

spk_0 the modern hobby so i wasn't such a big like vlada kovato kick that like i was just like chasing

spk_0 down like all of these other games to play and at that point i also hadn't played that many cooperative

spk_0 games so you know once i was invited to play mage knight as a sort of cooperative game

spk_0 this kind of blew me away this is for so many different reasons like a incredible incredible

spk_0 vlada kovato game a very heavy not necessarily cooperative but not necessarily competitive like

spk_0 somewhere in between like some of the scenarios can be one either or the other you're not exactly

spk_0 co-opping but you're not exactly competing either like depending on how you choose to play it

spk_0 just a cool experience of just kind of you exploring this world together and interacting and

spk_0 kind of beating each other to the punch in certain things but then collaborating it together at the

spk_0 ends like at a boss i just love the idea of that a neat sort of combination of stuff i'd played

spk_0 before like it is technically a kind of a deck building game or it is really like you have a deck

spk_0 that you're building up which is your combat deck which you're getting increased power to by

spk_0 getting access to like characters throughout the board map so it's a hybrid of stuff i played

spk_0 before and on top of that it's very much an imagining of one of my favorite video games

spk_0 turned into a board game is offered in something that vlada kovato does this is basically

spk_0 here's a myth magic turned into a board game so it's just like taking all of these boxes for me as

spk_0 like a early heavy board game experience that kind of really resonated with me and on top of that

spk_0 it was one of the first if not maybe the first solo game i sort of ever picked up sort of just

spk_0 to play i wish i'd gone into it more as a solo game i think the thing i always find quite

spk_0 intimidating about it is that every time i play a magi you kind of need to relearn the rules a

spk_0 little bit because it's so complex i never going to like a zone where i was just playing it sort of

spk_0 repeatedly over and over again but absolutely a door magi night it's one that i sort of think about

spk_0 a lot especially recently as something like maybe there would be something in returning to that

spk_0 i would love i don't know the digital version of this just to sort of kind of maybe ease my

spk_0 means of like getting back into it but yeah magi is one that i have still yet to play and now that

spk_0 i've sort of been more into playing solo games is one that i find myself feeling like not obligated

spk_0 because it's not like an obligation but one that i feel like i got to try just because of how

spk_0 passionate those fans of it are who have played it and a lot of people are passionate on the same

spk_0 and have just not been able to play it again not because they didn't like it they loved it but it's

spk_0 it can be hard to get back into and it it maybe even feels to me like the same way i like to play

spk_0 mr. president like set it up learn the rules play it and then keep playing it but not necessarily

spk_0 force myself to play it all at once and just like step away from it come back and so play a couple

spk_0 times while i have the rules fresh on my head without feeling the need to like force it all in one

spk_0 sort of session maybe i think that's probably the right way to do it and i think in a world that

spk_0 i was kind of more yeah had been more inclined to do that just like leave it set up i probably would

spk_0 have sort of yeah done it exactly that way exactly that feels that feels right because you know it

spk_0 is a very long game if you try to play in one session so it's not necessarily the ideal way to do it

spk_0 and that can be sort of daunting in terms even wanting to get on the table when you think of like oh

spk_0 this is gonna take me four hours so exactly what am i gonna do but if you could break that up into a

spk_0 couple bites then maybe it's better so my next game i think works as a sort of piggybacking to

spk_0 your explanation of mage knight this is the game that when we did our first ever top 50 games

spk_0 well time i think this is a game that got the most what's and hugs from listeners they didn't get

spk_0 why i had this so high and i think this was like a top 10 if not top i game for me but france's

spk_0 strike it was a really big game for me early in my board gaming career so to speak and for some

spk_0 of the reasons that you mentioned like this was a game that i get i never heard of but was in a

spk_0 malgamation of a lot of very cool mechanisms that i already liked and some that i had never heard

spk_0 of that became some of my favorites so like the biggest thing for me with france's strike was this

spk_0 is a game that introduced me to time tracks which has become like probably my favorite mechanism of

spk_0 any in board gaming and for those who don't know what that is it's like it's games that you have like

spk_0 a track or some sort of string of options and usually the best options are farthest ahead and you

spk_0 can go as far down this track as you want to get the the great stuff right away but if you do

spk_0 you usually are like leaving your opponents with multiple turns before it gets back to your turn

spk_0 because you've chosen to jump as far as ahead as as you have that was the first time i ever saw

spk_0 a time track and i just instantly loved it and became like a mechanism that i if a game has it

spk_0 i i immediately am interested because i enjoyed it so much with france's strike it also has other

spk_0 aspects i like like bluffing and this is all sort of wrapped in a game that was older like even

spk_0 what i played at france's rake wasn't like anything hot at the time but had such a lavish production

spk_0 and i'd sort of gone into the hobby thinking i'm all about mechanisms like i don't really care

spk_0 about what the production is like i'm just looking for a good game and then i don't care if it's like

spk_0 no art or whatever or just you know string and numbers if you can be a good game i'll be happy

spk_0 but france's rake was a game that showed me that hey you know if you have a game that has a little

spk_0 treasure chest and you put jewels in your treasure chest and it's got like this production value

spk_0 like it can really enhance your experience and so yeah france's rake was this aha moment in a

spk_0 lot of ways for me that's cool i i've sure i've mentioned this before like i have one enduring

spk_0 memory of this which is of you setting it up and i'm going to tear it down because we didn't get

spk_0 we get back together and we dice our west something because it's not like super hard to

spk_0 to teach or never and i think we'd all definitely have a good time but that is a hilarious memory

spk_0 we're at somebody's house for a game night and i start i set it up and the game is not like

spk_0 super cumbersome to set up but i set it up yeah i think he's told the whole thing as well

spk_0 not the whole thing and then what i did to each of them i did to each of them as well and then

spk_0 just as we're about to start someone's like i don't think this is for me or i don't think i

spk_0 should do this right now and we decided to go something else but that was a very funny memory

spk_0 oh my gosh i still really want to try this but this seems like so so much like something i would love

spk_0 yeah yeah yeah okay my my second game is bouncing off of what was my love for the resistance

spk_0 very early like i think i've often mentioned about how you know the resistance was kind of like my

spk_0 oh my god i didn't realize board games could be like this you know like just a purely social

spk_0 experience not not much of a board presence that that's what the thing so i went down that rabbit hole

spk_0 very hard in the first year or two of the hobby where i was just like trying to find every social

spk_0 deduction game i could find like sort of trying to see i see have you played this one every one of

spk_0 my group had played shadows of over camelot so like that was one that was like oh my i felt like

spk_0 i missed the boat on that but i was i kept trying to find like more and more stuff that for kind of

spk_0 fit the bill and the one that kind of like really stuck out to me early on was two rooms in the

spk_0 boom because it's it was kind of this sort of niche thing you kind of heard about where people

spk_0 were kind of talking about this context of like these big group games a convention game how would

spk_0 something even work if you were playing with 20 people at that point in time there was no retail

spk_0 version of this i believe only it only existed in print and play so it was the first print and

spk_0 play game i made where i sort of bought it printed play printed out the cards stuffed them into sleeves

spk_0 took it to you a game that i was like look at this mad thing i shot everyone two rooms in the room

spk_0 like a really big group and got us all playing it and it just kind of felt like i was bringing something

spk_0 kind of really unique and special and it was something like kind of really resonated with me it's

spk_0 something that i still sticks with me in the light of stuff like blood in the clock tower where i

spk_0 really love these big social experiences now a lot of people would make the argument that two rooms

spk_0 in the room kind of breaks down as a game but i still think that there's very little that's quite

spk_0 like it in terms of just activating a large number of people in a shared space like that i went on

spk_0 to just to play this every time i would go to like any convention i would just try to find the people

spk_0 that were playing two rooms in the room and i would just spend the whole night like playing it

spk_0 with them over and over because it's just such a lovely social experience even if it just often

spk_0 boils down to like arbitrarily picking which room you're gonna end up in at the end of the game

spk_0 there's still such a fun journey and story and social game along the way that just like i found

spk_0 really really kind of still to some extent like there's nothing that's still quite like it yeah

spk_0 for sure yeah i mean games that can accommodate 20 people and actually want a number that high

spk_0 are obviously exceedingly rare and whenever you find yourself in those places if you could find a

spk_0 game that accommodates that that's just gonna make for a really unique and fun and silly experience

spk_0 even if the game is serious like just the fact that you're trying to get 20 people play the same

spk_0 game is inherently somewhat silly and a fun sort of thing to do and you you you coupled that with

spk_0 your experience of being the person who brought the game and having to print it out and cut it

spk_0 like that is a very cool formative experience for sure as well totally i i i i think that the other

spk_0 part of this as well is that like you know it is a game i you know now that has a retail copy i still

spk_0 have that game you know like i i probably haven't played two rooms the room and probably like

spk_0 five plus like since before covid or like like some very probably before the podcast was maybe

spk_0 the last time i played it but i still have it because it still just feels like the game i want to

spk_0 find the right opportunity just break out and be like okay let me show you guys this

spk_0 because it's gonna blow your mind you know like it's just that sort of thing yeah yeah so

spk_0 getting back to early on in the in the hobby and you're frenzied and you just want to play all the time

spk_0 and i still have it had my group i mean this is maybe i was a deans group by now but maybe not

spk_0 not going regularly yet so i tried to as most people i not maybe not most but many people in the hobby

spk_0 will do early in their board gaming adventure or their experience try to get your non gaming

spk_0 friends that you've established you know throughout your life into games right that's something

spk_0 i think a lot of people do to their folly sometimes but it's a natural sort of thing and so at this

spk_0 time i was playing a ton of soccer i was playing soccer three times a week or more and so i had my

spk_0 soccer friends that were like firmly entrenched i would see them all the time obviously and we would

spk_0 hang out socially and so i tried to get them to play no board games i tried to introducing

spk_0 into board games two varying degrees of success like you know we all have this thing where we have

spk_0 non gamer friends and we try to go with Twilight Imperium and like it fails miserably even though

spk_0 you think that they should get it but you realize later that it's silly but you know so i would

spk_0 introduce into games sometimes it works sometimes they wouldn't but one game that really hit hard

spk_0 was survive escape from Atlantis this was a game that i introduced to my soccer friends and even

spk_0 though this is like a definitely a board game this is not a mass market well i mean maybe it was

spk_0 mass market at some point but this is not a game with like super super straightforward rules like

spk_0 there are some rules that you have to teach but it is simple enough that all my friends got it

spk_0 and i just have a very clear memory of them being maybe a little apprehensive at first because like

spk_0 what is all what are all these pieces what are you making this board and there's all these tiles

spk_0 and all this stuff going on and i'm teaching some rules and so they started to dip their toe in it

spk_0 putt non intended into this game and then as they're understanding how it works and as they're

spk_0 understanding how mean this game can be because you can like send sea monsters to eat your opponent's

spk_0 pieces and really you then getting into it and like seeing their competitiveness from soccer or maybe

spk_0 but maybe just they're like you know competitiveness as people or whatever come out and the

spk_0 threatening to send the sea monster to eat your opponent's people and just really really seeing

spk_0 them dive into it and enjoying it and having me enjoy it and then wanting to play it again and

spk_0 requesting it over and over again was just again like was one of the first oh okay maybe the

spk_0 heavier stuff doesn't work for for everyone and you know obviously we shouldn't shoehorn people

spk_0 until like trying things that they don't like obviously but there are times where you get the right

spk_0 game with playing with your family or friends or not otherwise gamers and they're like oh wait

spk_0 well you know i don't like the other ones but this one i love this one's great and you have that

spk_0 really really cool feeling and also another thing that this game sort of like opened my eyes to

spk_0 was you know i played it and had fun and always brought this and then i noticed like 10 games

spk_0 into it that it had a you know it has like a little decal or sticker on the top of it that says

spk_0 30th anniversary edition so i had no idea this game was from like 1982 when i was playing it

spk_0 and it sort of made me realize that just because a game is old doesn't mean that it is like it is

spk_0 no longer fun like it has been eclipsed and this is like a lesson that i've taken in other aspects

spk_0 of my life like the old things and culture sometimes the older stuff still older movies stuff

spk_0 are still great and this was one of the first times i realized that and that made me sort of shift my

spk_0 focus from like not always the the cost of the new not always the hottest games but sometimes on

spk_0 that old stuff is is really great and yeah so survive escape from elantis i think this is similarly

spk_0 one of the if we ignore the stuff that i was just truly like in the old like a monopoly is in the

spk_0 wrist game and that sort of thing like one of the older games that i've probably played the most of

spk_0 like because it's it's just still so good it has this weird thing where it's like it feels newer

spk_0 than it is yes 100% still kind of holds up exactly like you'd expect it to yeah great and there

spk_0 would be so many like good new additions of this i know that there was like there's one that's

spk_0 like just called god there was a very new version of this again i love this one right there's

spk_0 another space version maybe yeah yeah it's still being constantly remade the next game that i'm

spk_0 going to be talking about is grand austria hotel this is probably sort of like one of the i'm not

spk_0 going to say like first euro games but like first sort of like heavy mechanically dense euro games

spk_0 were like these very intricately interconnected systems that kind of really kind of really really

spk_0 spoke to me there was obviously you know there was stuff like a greekland there were other uve

spk_0 games i was playing but like whatever reason grand austria hotel like really kind of just like stuck

spk_0 in my brain like something about the way it was complex but like complex and kind of like all the

spk_0 right ways while still having coherent theme and feeling to it they're just kind of like really

spk_0 worked for me it was my i think it has to be my first taste of the italian designers and this is

spk_0 kind of like the hallmark of all of their games you know this kind of like layered interconnected

spk_0 complexity that just kind of really everything kind of meshes together in a way that is hard to wrap

spk_0 your brain around at first but feels very rewarding as you pick away at it yeah this is also a game

spk_0 that like for whatever reason i haven't gone back to as much as i would have liked in recent years

spk_0 i should say like i was playing a lot of this kind of when it was first introduced to me and for

spk_0 whatever reason like i'm i'm sure it's still as good as it always was i know it was on my top 50

spk_0 for a little bit but i haven't played this in a very long time despite how much i used to love it

spk_0 yeah so was this you had played this before zulkin or is it right around the same time as zulkin?

spk_0 i think it was definitely before zulkin it was probably similar to what i was describing with like

spk_0 mage knight where it was like okay i've liked these designers now i'm gonna sort of seek out

spk_0 others yeah by them and everyone was raving about zulkin and i can't remember even the context of like

spk_0 why i think it wasn't it was something like maybe like dean had played it but so it hadn't loved it

spk_0 so it kind of like so come through the group but never really stuck yeah but like everyone kept talking

spk_0 about zulkin because that had since gone on to be like my favorite game by the talent designers

spk_0 but like i think for whatever reason it'd be you know it was a while off to playing grand austria

spk_0 hotel that eventually let around to try and zulkin yeah i remember my first time playing grand austria

spk_0 and then like hearing about zulkin and they did Lorenzo right Lorenzo made it bring to you

spk_0 yes i didn't end up playing Lorenzo until much later yeah yeah but i yeah and i remember like

spk_0 seeing all these games that weren't the same but like much different but had the same sort of

spk_0 feeling and they all felt interesting and very soundly designed and i remember that that moment in

spk_0 my gaming past totally one of the other things i think that i also remember about this and kind

spk_0 of as it starts like segway into the time that like you know when we start to do the podcast is

spk_0 like i think i think i remember if this was like in the first year the podcast was just before

spk_0 but i remember when kawimbras was announced and it was like there was that one of the hot

spk_0 anticipated games of the jencon of that year and it was like i told myself this is the one game

spk_0 i'm gonna go pick up and it was all based on like just be like having now discovered and loved

spk_0 so many of their games that it was just yeah just very kind of i would say so probably

spk_0 second or maybe second and third to like kvartil and Rosenberg as like designers that i

spk_0 was suddenly just paying attention to like everything they were doing yeah for my last game

spk_0 i am now going to go into that game group that brought me together with nielin and kellen

spk_0 i think i've talked about this game before but this was early in my time with the game group that

spk_0 nielin and kellen were already part of and that would sort of like be where the this podcast was

spk_0 sort of birthed from and so this was dean's game night who's been brought up a bunch of times

spk_0 on this episode and throughout the history of the show but this was a regular game night that

spk_0 had been happening for like 15 years before i even got there and one thing that sort of

spk_0 happens in these game nights are people show up they sort of split into the tables and usually

spk_0 you get like quite you know you not always heavy games but these are all like quote unquote

spk_0 serious gamers so you get real meaty games being played often and then a lot of times as the

spk_0 night winds down we'll all sort of come together as people leave come together and we'll do like a

spk_0 times up this is where i first played times up and that was a huge influential moment playing

spk_0 times up with these guys for the first time was was huge but the game i'm thinking of now was also

spk_0 in this sort of situation where we were winding down and i still didn't again didn't really know

spk_0 everybody but we played dead last and i know okay i know kellen was there yeah i know nielin was

spk_0 there i think Christina was even there i think Christina's over there i think Christina might

spk_0 to be in there i'm trying to remember exactly i think so i can remember kellen brought the game

spk_0 for sure okay i can remember exactly where i was sitting at the table i can remember where

spk_0 kellen was sitting remember we were standing at the table and so i don't remember exactly the

spk_0 rules of this game but basically it's a full negotiation game where everybody yes i think every

spk_0 has a color assigned to them and every has cards of everybody else so if i'm like purple i would

spk_0 have nielin's orange card and kellen's red card every else's color and then it's a situation

spk_0 all the game is is you go around the table and you discuss who everybody should kill

spk_0 and you sort of agree on it if you can or whatever and then everybody puts one card out and then

spk_0 the cards are flipped and whoever has the most votes gets killed and whoever is dead last who

spk_0 was last whoever doesn't get killed wins the game but it's all about negotiating who should be

spk_0 killed and who should not be killed and that's all it is it's all that's all it's sort of like

spk_0 what's the game i'm thinking about the long one takes forever the poem is almost it's almost

spk_0 the diplomacy filtered to like a 30 minute experience or less it's like effectively just like

spk_0 survivor but like reduced just to try and the series of tribal councils it is just like

spk_0 votes who's getting eliminated votes who's getting eliminated votes who's getting eliminated that's

spk_0 kind of the whole game yeah i don't even know i can't even remember like what they tell you to do

spk_0 like what is allowed and what is not allowed all i can remember is like you just beg and you just

spk_0 plot and that's all there is but there might be more to it but i think that's basically a

spk_0 kind of i think that's a it really but like it's a sort of game where like it's the intent is that

spk_0 like all the stuff happens in the margins right yes like you say to your neighbors like no we're

spk_0 gonna get mock right and if you subtly flash your cards okay like someone next to you and you

spk_0 know like you're doing like all this like underhanded stuff constantly just trying to like manipulate

spk_0 people to vote the way you want them to vote right and so i remember i remember we played

spk_0 a couple times but the first time i played with you guys i remember that you kneeling were like

spk_0 again i didn't know you at the time but you did come across very much as trying to connect people

spk_0 you said i was a and i know later on you revealed yourself as like people voted you in that group

spk_0 as like the person who what was it called the shadow whatever best shadow yeah the person who's

spk_0 best at like hiding what the truth intent was but like in that moment i don't know how if you're

spk_0 just playing it straight or what but i remember you trying to connect people together and you are

spk_0 very like collaborative and i just remember coming to you and feeling okay this guy's trying to

spk_0 make it happen trying to work like i can and i remember kelin also coming across his very

spk_0 social and talking to me and like hey you know you're new to the group here let's do this let's do that

spk_0 and i will never forget and i mean i wasn't like endgame it wasn't like toward the end but it was

spk_0 like midway like i survived a couple cuts and things were very like on a nice edge and i talked to

spk_0 you and i was talking to kelin and kelin's like hey let's go with whoever i can't remember it was

spk_0 dan or something like you know let's go we'll go with green and i remember knowing that i was also

spk_0 close to the chopping block and i remember kelin saying like no no okay we'll do this you and i

spk_0 are gonna we're gonna get the end and i already got the annealing on it and we're gonna we're gonna do

spk_0 this and everybody has their cars down and i picked dan and flipped and kelin picked me and i

spk_0 like he had arranges so there were enough votes that i was a guy like me and i don't remember his

spk_0 exact words but what they amounted to was walk him to the club like this is your initiation he said

spk_0 something like that like you know now you're a part of the group or something like that like the

spk_0 fact that you've now been backstabbed is now your initiation into this group and i remember two

spk_0 things two emotions at the moment like one watch three things one that was great like the whole

spk_0 experience was great to i felt really accepted like in a way that you know games that have edges and

spk_0 can be a little rough if you do a people that you trust or feel like you can get trust it can

spk_0 change the dynamic of your friendship like you're like you can be like oh we can be mean to each other

spk_0 and it can be totally fine because we'll be friends a minute later and three all that aside i'm

spk_0 gunning for this guy from now on and and definitely for the next couple months and kelin knows

spk_0 this i were told that's like for the next couple months if i had a choice in a game i was trying to

spk_0 kill him down my first goal would be to win my second goal be to take kelin down and so yeah

spk_0 just very formative in getting to know you guys and just feeling like i was part of that group

spk_0 and so that was dead last on a kind of not exactly similar but the specific note that this game

spk_0 hits for me is like very bridging the gap between like the games i was playing before the podcasts

spk_0 and the games you started playing like when you started the podcast now i think kind of like in

spk_0 the spirit of what you're talking about mark especially with calena and Christina we always

spk_0 tended to gravitate towards fighting area control games and very early in the life of the podcast

spk_0 enough that like this was probably the hot game that was coming out as the first episode of the

spk_0 podcast was like being recorded basically was rising sun enough so that the very third episode of

spk_0 the podcast is entirely devoted to rising sun which is not something that we even do anymore

spk_0 this kind of just struck me as kind of like the big exciting kickstarted game it was a game

spk_0 that kelin and i kind of bonded over in the early days of kickstarter because we kind of were

spk_0 both backing it and we were both excited for it and it was Eric Lang's follow up to blood rage which

spk_0 we had both played a lot of times prior to that and i think that sort of like combination of just

spk_0 how like raucous our games of this were in that group and kind of like how closely it ties to

spk_0 like my memories of like the earliest days of the podcast to me is the perfect encapsulation of

spk_0 the sorts of experiences that was the later version of the experiences that kind of led to us

spk_0 like all being close as a friend group these sort of the very arguing very fighting there's a heavy

spk_0 dose of just kind of doing something saying something to someone then backstabbing them kelin

spk_0 getting mad at everyone for reasons i feel completely unfair because he was done exactly the same

spk_0 yet thought of it first it was all of that like in a perfect encapsulation in one word game

spk_0 so is episode three the episode that i'm thinking about is it the episode i i mean episode three if

spk_0 i'm not mistaken i think episode three is just a rising sun focused episode i'm not sure i'm

spk_0 i'm i'm mr. remembering something that you know you you might be do you remember the big

spk_0 no what's the thing oh my god you don't remember the me giving Christina all my coins

spk_0 oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's yes i mean that's the one i think that's got to be the episode

spk_0 you took two i'm sorry i would like i would learn to upset i'm not gonna tell listeners to go through

spk_0 all an entire back catalog or whatever but like that was a huge moment in our podcast like in our

spk_0 friend group and everything but like if you have the inclination to go back and listen to an

spk_0 episode and you haven't listened to that episode about rising sun and specifically what happened

spk_0 in that game and you want to hear me and kellen on the mic on the podcast get a little testy like

spk_0 a little legitimately testy about each other or to each other i would say listen to episode three

spk_0 for sure but yes this game was massive i still remember the hype i still remember you and kellen

spk_0 talking about it coming out on Kickstarter and how excited you were i still remember how much

spk_0 of an event it felt like when we were gonna finally play it's like it's sort of like a kin to

spk_0 and i'm sure other people have felt this when a hot board game comes out but i remember like

spk_0 knowing the day that we were gonna play it and it felt like when like a huge movie comes out and it's

spk_0 like yeah yeah you have it circled on your calendar a month beforehand i'm like okay this is the day

spk_0 we're gonna do it and i still can remember how the table looked where i sat i was like i sat at the

spk_0 edge of the table Christina was to my right you were to my left kellen was across the table for me i

spk_0 remember so much about this experience viscerally i was such a slight huge moment perfectly picture

spk_0 i can't remember much else about their first la apartment but yes picturing like that space

spk_0 playing rising 100% in particular yeah 100% 100% yeah this is great that's a great call

spk_0 yeah yeah it's one that i sort of think about a lot because like you know again i still have it and i

spk_0 i think other games of kind of supplanted it for me but like man it's still something

spk_0 you can ever get back to it for me if we could if we could ever crack that open and get back to that

spk_0 magic what if you know could have what it could happen it had that magic years ago it could have

spk_0 it still you know it could happen again exactly yeah maybe that's all we've been missing to like

spk_0 revive the magic we don't need to revive the magic sure that's your the bed is still there that is

spk_0 gonna be it though for our journey through the games that we can i keep on saying the games that

spk_0 we once loved but that was a different beta version of this topic but like the games that sort of

spk_0 like this is this is like like young love this is like look you and i are mature men now you know

spk_0 we're mature men we have like but there were times when we were like young and we were new in the hobby

spk_0 and we were feeling all these feelings we never felt before so this is like this is the same sort

spk_0 of thing it feels very analogous to me at least totally i think the kind of the way that we've

spk_0 described these as well i think is kind of like hit that note for sure for me yeah like yeah just

spk_0 kind of these really like kind of very core formative memories for me absolutely uh yeah that is

spk_0 going to do it for this episode thank you all so much for listening thank you as always to hard

spk_0 society for our intro and outro music what's in your mind kid if you want to talk to us more you

spk_0 can find us on all of our social media whether that is on blue sky whether that is on Facebook

spk_0 elsewhere otherwise if you want to go to discord we are at boardgamebrorche.com slash discord

spk_0 and we hang out there we chat to people all the time so if you're not in there get in there maybe if

spk_0 you've never gone to discord and you want to give it a shot what i would love i would love for

spk_0 people to go to the podcast channel and just share a story share like absolutely formative i would

spk_0 love to read a couple like formative experiences maybe games like again i wouldn't last time i even

spk_0 thought of dead last like it's been forever but that was such a formative experience i'd love to

spk_0 read a couple stories people feel like they'd like to share so yeah that would be great and i

spk_0 could also imagine that for a lot of people that discord is quite intimidating when you first

spk_0 get there it moves very quickly but that's a good entry point if you just want to come in tell us

spk_0 about like in a memory or experience the story you had from like your early days in the hobby

spk_0 would love to hear it would love to hear that that's gonna do it though thank you all for listening goodbye

#344: ... But the Second Leaves a Mark

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